I remember that only the Devil, his spirit kingdom, and those born of the wrong seed would get eternal torment.
The unsaved would get nothingness. I heard something else that they would be at the Judgment of the Just and Unjust. I don't remember ever hearing if the ones judged "Just" would go to heaven.
Oh well, it doesn't matter anymore. It will be what it will be.
I do not remember that teaching. By the 90s lcm was teaching that "those that had heard but rejected" Jesus Christ (couch term for twi) would be handled much more harshly than the unsaved that have never heard.
Okay, Radar, now I'm confused. LCM taught that the Word was over the world, right? God had revealed it to him. Everybody that was going to believe had believed already.
Okay, so how could God give a different punishment to those who did not hear (who wouldn't have believed if they DID hear) than to those who DID hear, and likewise rejected Christ? God would be unjust to do that. And witnessing would be cruel. ("Don't tell me about that guy! I'm holding my ears. LA-LA-LA...!")
TWI taught that [only] the saved would get eternal life. The unsaved wouldn't get eternal life of any kind. They would basically cease to exist, not get eternal life in hell.
I remember LCM teaching it, but couldn't state just when that was. Sometime in the mid-to-late 90's, I would estimate.
Hhhmmmm--- got me thinking. Does ATDAN say anything about it? I don't remember it being that specific about it.
As I recall, TWI taught all along that those who aren't in the book of life in the end will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone. That's it. I don't think they elaborated further, or if they did, not really that decisively. That's the impression I got, but really didn't examine it deeply. So the question remains, what happens in the lake of fire? I believe, total annihilation, as opposed to eternal pain and suffering.
There's an excellent book on the topic of annihilation called
I came in during the late 80s and that teaching never came up around me. What I heard matches Dan, nonameplease, etc.
Distinctions became more varied under LCM though. It wasn't just in this category. Household vs family vs non-family vs non-household. By the time DaCraig left, it was pretty muddled. The only clear teaching was that TWI was right and everyone else was wrong.
It just occurred to me that AOS did not have anyone in it who did not have some "seed." One he-man virile believer stud who saves helpless but shapely believer babe. Together, they fight off all those bad "seed boys." No mention of those who are not born again but also not born of the wrong seed.
that thought ran through my mind, but it seemed to me they never taught annihilation decisively enough. At least I never heard a decisive teaching by VP on it. I was out by 1991.
I vaguely remember lcm teaching at some point in the mid to late 90's that the so-called eternal torment of "hell" would be that the unsaved would be banished forever from the presence of God - that is where the weeping and gnashing of teeth would be - to be eternally separated from God. Anyone else recall this, or am I having a brain f*art??
I do recall hearing something like that, but it never made any sense to me because if you were being eternally tortured in that way, you wouldn't know it, cause you'd be unconscious.
LCM said that eternal damnation was a fantasy of the adversay and his realm. It would not be godly to toment eternaly. The devil would be allowed to consume himself and all his spirits and all us infidels. That is what he said was refered to as the "second death".
Yeah, LCM taught that the devil would not exist anymore and neither would devil spirits, seed boys, or those who didn't have eternal life, whether pre-pentecost who were condemned by the law, or post-pentecost who just never got born again.
It always seemed kind of disproportionate to me for one lifetime of sin to yield eternal torment.
quote: By the 90s lcm was teaching that "those that had heard but rejected" Jesus Christ (couch term for twi) would be handled much more harshly than the unsaved that have never heard.
I remember hearing him say that also. I think it was his own idea to console himself from all of the "cop-outs" who would rather never see his ugly mug again. He was rather obsessed with how people thought of him. I remember hearing him at lunch saying the spirit realm was thick because he knew the cop-outs were talking about him. -->
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Grizzy
I don't recall a time that the unsaved were doomed to eternal torment from TWI teachings.
Now the seed debate, seems it takes seed to get instant heaven and seed to get eternal fire.....
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Nottawayfer
I remember that only the Devil, his spirit kingdom, and those born of the wrong seed would get eternal torment.
The unsaved would get nothingness. I heard something else that they would be at the Judgment of the Just and Unjust. I don't remember ever hearing if the ones judged "Just" would go to heaven.
Oh well, it doesn't matter anymore. It will be what it will be.
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Radar OReilly
Cynic,
I do not remember that teaching. By the 90s lcm was teaching that "those that had heard but rejected" Jesus Christ (couch term for twi) would be handled much more harshly than the unsaved that have never heard.
Why do you ask?
ror
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shazdancer
Okay, Radar, now I'm confused. LCM taught that the Word was over the world, right? God had revealed it to him. Everybody that was going to believe had believed already.
Okay, so how could God give a different punishment to those who did not hear (who wouldn't have believed if they DID hear) than to those who DID hear, and likewise rejected Christ? God would be unjust to do that. And witnessing would be cruel. ("Don't tell me about that guy! I'm holding my ears. LA-LA-LA...!")
Laughing now, and shaking my head,
Shaz
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nonameplease
TWI taught that [only] the saved would get eternal life. The unsaved wouldn't get eternal life of any kind. They would basically cease to exist, not get eternal life in hell.
I remember LCM teaching it, but couldn't state just when that was. Sometime in the mid-to-late 90's, I would estimate.
Hhhmmmm--- got me thinking. Does ATDAN say anything about it? I don't remember it being that specific about it.
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TheInvisibleDan
Yes.
My guess would be that it began or intensified with VPW's "Are the Dead Alive Now?"
Danny
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oldiesman
As I recall, TWI taught all along that those who aren't in the book of life in the end will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone. That's it. I don't think they elaborated further, or if they did, not really that decisively. That's the impression I got, but really didn't examine it deeply. So the question remains, what happens in the lake of fire? I believe, total annihilation, as opposed to eternal pain and suffering.
There's an excellent book on the topic of annihilation called
The Fire That Consumes
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JustThinking
Oldies,
I came in during the late 80s and that teaching never came up around me. What I heard matches Dan, nonameplease, etc.
Distinctions became more varied under LCM though. It wasn't just in this category. Household vs family vs non-family vs non-household. By the time DaCraig left, it was pretty muddled. The only clear teaching was that TWI was right and everyone else was wrong.
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def59
If you remember AOS, even the devil would be consumed by his own evil and not condemned by God.
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JustThinking
Def,
It just occurred to me that AOS did not have anyone in it who did not have some "seed." One he-man virile believer stud who saves helpless but shapely believer babe. Together, they fight off all those bad "seed boys." No mention of those who are not born again but also not born of the wrong seed.
JT
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oldiesman
def59,
that thought ran through my mind, but it seemed to me they never taught annihilation decisively enough. At least I never heard a decisive teaching by VP on it. I was out by 1991.
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2fortheroad
I vaguely remember lcm teaching at some point in the mid to late 90's that the so-called eternal torment of "hell" would be that the unsaved would be banished forever from the presence of God - that is where the weeping and gnashing of teeth would be - to be eternally separated from God. Anyone else recall this, or am I having a brain f*art??
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oldiesman
I do recall hearing something like that, but it never made any sense to me because if you were being eternally tortured in that way, you wouldn't know it, cause you'd be unconscious.
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def59
In our area the teaching was that since God is love, he sends no one to a lake of fire. Even satan is consumed by his hate.
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lindyhopper
Right, Def, something like that.
Late 90's is what I remember.
LCM said that eternal damnation was a fantasy of the adversay and his realm. It would not be godly to toment eternaly. The devil would be allowed to consume himself and all his spirits and all us infidels. That is what he said was refered to as the "second death".
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ckeer
I remeber techings along the same line as Lindys
But since I left in 96 I think it started in the early 90's
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johniam
Yeah, LCM taught that the devil would not exist anymore and neither would devil spirits, seed boys, or those who didn't have eternal life, whether pre-pentecost who were condemned by the law, or post-pentecost who just never got born again.
It always seemed kind of disproportionate to me for one lifetime of sin to yield eternal torment.
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Nottawayfer
I remember hearing him say that also. I think it was his own idea to console himself from all of the "cop-outs" who would rather never see his ugly mug again. He was rather obsessed with how people thought of him. I remember hearing him at lunch saying the spirit realm was thick because he knew the cop-outs were talking about him.
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