This vpw doctrine that believing equals receiving is unscriptural.
Yes, believing opens doors to receiving God's salvation, grace, and blessings......but, to put it into a mathematical formula is where vpw overstepped and moved into private interpretation.
Maybe vpw wanted to further establish his "works with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision" approach, but imo he veered off course.
Perhaps.....it would be better stated, YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW.
This whole "believing thing" became a sickness in twi. Whatever happened or didn't happen was because somebody failed to believe rightly. It was held over your head like a hammer. I always thought that "believing" was a personal thing that took place in an individual's heart and was between the person and God. In twi, it seemed that every jerk with a green nametag felt qualified to determine where somebody else's "believing was at". It was used as a weapon against people. When things went bad (as they sometimes do), it was YOUR fault because of your believing, but when things went right, it was because you listened to the wise council of the leadership. Having your "believing" constantly evaluated by a higher up became a way of life. This promoted the concept of putting on a happy face and pretending. Why draw criticism for being honest?
Well --- shoot. I know this has been posted here before (leastways I think it has), but if you take a look at THIS SITE, you'll see how the "believing aspect" gets really messed up.
What say ye, Mike?? Did doc die because he believed for that cancer?? What a crock.
And if he believed for his body to shut down ( as CG claims in the POP) would that be positive believing, or negative???? I haven't a clue, but I'm sure it is explained somewhere in the depths of pfal, that we have yet to discover.
If I remember correctly,VPW says in the first segment of the class something like "I don't tell you that you ought to pray,I teach you HOW to pray..I don't tell my people they ought to believe,I teach them HOW to believe"...The problem is neither Wierwille,or the Bible really follows through on HOW to believe...
As a follower of the way,I've "mentally assented",I've "walked out on my believing",I've "claimed it in the name of Jesus Christ",I've "let go and let God",I've thanked God "for already recieving it",I've "put myself in neutral",I've "demolished my human logic from the high point which I've lifted it vertically against the knowledge of God which I have known by experience,being wise,leading every thought captive to the obedience of Christ",like Job I've "prayed for my enemies",I've practiced "stayed mind",I fasted for three days and three nights,I "walked in the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation",I hoped for "good" but prayed for "best" and I even prayed that I'd have more believing....and NONE of it worked!...
I'll tell you what,somebody give me the secret, magical formula for what constitutes believing,and I'll try it out on something and let you know if it equals receiving or not....
In the “world”, if someone buys a product, maintains it, cares for it, and has 25 years of experience in using it – and THEN would “NEVER BUY THAT P.O.S. AGAIN” would the Consumer Repots look at that as a product success or a product failure?
Somehow, Mike can’t believe that a product failure is even possible – so it HAS to be a dumb-axx consumer failure…
The product should be made with enough “features” that when put in the hands of the TARGET CONSUMERS (those who want to believe), then it should work for the VAST majority of the target market.
I mean this is what the world expects. Shoot. PFAL is not even a good product by worldly standards!... 95+% of the consumers would NOT buy it again.
If we ever start a thread of “Consumer Reports” on the way international’s stuff, SIMON and IGOT OUT should be considered TOP evaluators.
Yeah,whaddayou know about believing,TGN...BTW,thanks for the compliment(Bill Mays)...
I think too often in TWI,if somebody was not "receiving",hence axiomatically not "believing",it was treated as maybe "willful disobedience",as if we were not believing on purpose....Many times I would think about that guy in the Gospel of Mark whose son had one hell of a devil and told Jesus "Lord,I believe,help thou mine unbelief"...That man's statement seemingly contradicts itself....
IMO,the snake oil part of PALF was that it would teach you how to believe...Even one of the way corpse principals was to "practice believing to bring material abundance to you and the ministry"...Well,how do you 'practice' believing in that regard other than getting a good job,tithing,abundant sharing,volunteering and giving back to the ministry that taught you how to believe and staying out of gambling joints and houses of ill repute and so on and so on...
Hey,how did that happen?...My post was the last one on page 3 and the first one on page four...Is that a new greasespot quirk....I know,....Like God,when I say something twice that establishes it....
Yup. You find that promise of God and confess until the doubt, worry, or fear leaves you.
If that doesn't work - "Lord. Help thou mine unbelief!" Ya get ministered to. (Usually, the "revelation" pointed to some funk in your blood - so your blood stream had to be cleaned up. --> Which, like kidney dialosis(sp?) - takes a while - so you ARE healed - just not FULLY manifesting it, yet
Now, just before you feel like dying... you are supposed to limp to 3rd. Aid.
If you didn't get well after going to 3rd aid... you gotta be doin' somthin' on purpose!
Time to evoke the PFAL faith loophole -
"And he did not many mighty works there because - why - Because Jesus had changed? No! Because of THEIR unbelief."
Yeah... I think Simon is on the right track... rubbin' in all that snake oil - eventually got into all our blood streams.
Those that stayed in had to have some sort of anti-venom or they were the spiritual mongoose that could take a strike and not die from it - I swear to God.
When some vpw-schister keeps pushing this "believing equals receiving" doctrine down my throat.......I refuse to drink more of this kool-aid and start asking questions!
What about Daniel? Was he BELIEVING to be thrown in the lion's den?
What about Shadrak, Meshak and Abendego? Were they BELIEVING to be thrown into the fiery furnace?
What about Samson?
What about Moses?
What about Paul? Was he believing to be imprisoned? Tortured? Shipwrecked? Mocked? Etc?
Doesn't the Bible teach about the devil and his attempts to thwart God's chosen? At times, things are just beyond our "control" (believing).
And then, there are those questions about current situations where someone, knows the truth of God's Word and continues to willfully sin. What about L. Craig Martindale? Was he BELIEVING to fail as the 2nd president? Was he BELIEVING TO SOMEDAY WORK AT UPS? Was he BELIEVING to be isolated from his family and live as a nobody in Toledo?
Just too many questions when I try to put that square peg of wierwillian doctrine into that round hole of everlasting truth.
Opps. I spread a wives tale, unwittingly. Please note below...
quote: Mongooses are not immune to snake venom; rather they strike so quickly as to avoid being bitten by the snake. In order to kill the snake, they attack it with repeated quick bites until it is able to get a favorable lock right behind the head. Then it grasps the snake with its forepaws and rolls over the snake, putting a hindleg on either side of the snake, and rolls on its side.
But it just bolsters the law of the jungle - (which has nothing to do with believing) - it is "the quick - and the dead"
Ok... I get it, now. If believing = receiving... then - by mathmatical exactness & scientific percision - receiving = believing.
And of course we have this VERY clear verse - which should guide the intrepretation of the other fuzzy verses...
quote: "And these signs shall follow them that believe;... They shall take up serpents..."
There you have it. Clear as can be...
The Mongoose is gifted with his own special ministry. The Mongoose practices believing (a.k.a. "receiving") - he takes up serpants, they bite him, he lives. He, must BELIEVE. He lives by "his faith".
He has to... believing is a "law" & and it works for snakes and mongooses alike.
Besides, the mongoose is cuter than "Tick" - who everyone knew was VPs spiritual dog.
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skyrider
This vpw doctrine that believing equals receiving is unscriptural.
Yes, believing opens doors to receiving God's salvation, grace, and blessings......but, to put it into a mathematical formula is where vpw overstepped and moved into private interpretation.
Maybe vpw wanted to further establish his "works with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision" approach, but imo he veered off course.
Perhaps.....it would be better stated, YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW.
Now, THAT is scriptural.
:)-->
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Knuckles
This whole "believing thing" became a sickness in twi. Whatever happened or didn't happen was because somebody failed to believe rightly. It was held over your head like a hammer. I always thought that "believing" was a personal thing that took place in an individual's heart and was between the person and God. In twi, it seemed that every jerk with a green nametag felt qualified to determine where somebody else's "believing was at". It was used as a weapon against people. When things went bad (as they sometimes do), it was YOUR fault because of your believing, but when things went right, it was because you listened to the wise council of the leadership. Having your "believing" constantly evaluated by a higher up became a way of life. This promoted the concept of putting on a happy face and pretending. Why draw criticism for being honest?
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dmiller
Well --- shoot. I know this has been posted here before (leastways I think it has), but if you take a look at THIS SITE, you'll see how the "believing aspect" gets really messed up.
What say ye, Mike?? Did doc die because he believed for that cancer?? What a crock.
And if he believed for his body to shut down ( as CG claims in the POP) would that be positive believing, or negative???? I haven't a clue, but I'm sure it is explained somewhere in the depths of pfal, that we have yet to discover.
So many questions. So few answers.
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simonzelotes
If I remember correctly,VPW says in the first segment of the class something like "I don't tell you that you ought to pray,I teach you HOW to pray..I don't tell my people they ought to believe,I teach them HOW to believe"...The problem is neither Wierwille,or the Bible really follows through on HOW to believe...
As a follower of the way,I've "mentally assented",I've "walked out on my believing",I've "claimed it in the name of Jesus Christ",I've "let go and let God",I've thanked God "for already recieving it",I've "put myself in neutral",I've "demolished my human logic from the high point which I've lifted it vertically against the knowledge of God which I have known by experience,being wise,leading every thought captive to the obedience of Christ",like Job I've "prayed for my enemies",I've practiced "stayed mind",I fasted for three days and three nights,I "walked in the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation",I hoped for "good" but prayed for "best" and I even prayed that I'd have more believing....and NONE of it worked!...
I'll tell you what,somebody give me the secret, magical formula for what constitutes believing,and I'll try it out on something and let you know if it equals receiving or not....
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Belle
Thanks, ex! Now I have that freakin song running through my head and I'm having to resist the urge to disco down the hall at work.
:D-->
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excathedra
simon, you're a lazy bum. just ask what-the-hay
:)-->
actually, great post !!!!!
when you get the secret magical formula, please don't keep it a secret, okay ?
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excathedra
belle, just believe to put it out of your mind
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Too Gray Now
Simon – you go bro!
In the “world”, if someone buys a product, maintains it, cares for it, and has 25 years of experience in using it – and THEN would “NEVER BUY THAT P.O.S. AGAIN” would the Consumer Repots look at that as a product success or a product failure?
Somehow, Mike can’t believe that a product failure is even possible – so it HAS to be a dumb-axx consumer failure…
The product should be made with enough “features” that when put in the hands of the TARGET CONSUMERS (those who want to believe), then it should work for the VAST majority of the target market.
I mean this is what the world expects. Shoot. PFAL is not even a good product by worldly standards!... 95+% of the consumers would NOT buy it again.
If we ever start a thread of “Consumer Reports” on the way international’s stuff, SIMON and IGOT OUT should be considered TOP evaluators.
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Too Gray Now
But, hey - what do I know??
WOW 3 times, Way Corps, State Coord. of ....
I wouldn't buy it again, either.
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simonzelotes
Yeah,whaddayou know about believing,TGN...BTW,thanks for the compliment(Bill Mays)...
I think too often in TWI,if somebody was not "receiving",hence axiomatically not "believing",it was treated as maybe "willful disobedience",as if we were not believing on purpose....Many times I would think about that guy in the Gospel of Mark whose son had one hell of a devil and told Jesus "Lord,I believe,help thou mine unbelief"...That man's statement seemingly contradicts itself....
IMO,the snake oil part of PALF was that it would teach you how to believe...Even one of the way corpse principals was to "practice believing to bring material abundance to you and the ministry"...Well,how do you 'practice' believing in that regard other than getting a good job,tithing,abundant sharing,volunteering and giving back to the ministry that taught you how to believe and staying out of gambling joints and houses of ill repute and so on and so on...
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simonzelotes
Hey,how did that happen?...My post was the last one on page 3 and the first one on page four...Is that a new greasespot quirk....I know,....Like God,when I say something twice that establishes it....
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Too Gray Now
Yup. You find that promise of God and confess until the doubt, worry, or fear leaves you.
If that doesn't work - "Lord. Help thou mine unbelief!" Ya get ministered to. (Usually, the "revelation" pointed to some funk in your blood - so your blood stream had to be cleaned up.
--> Which, like kidney dialosis(sp?) - takes a while - so you ARE healed - just not FULLY manifesting it, yet 
Now, just before you feel like dying... you are supposed to limp to 3rd. Aid.
If you didn't get well after going to 3rd aid... you gotta be doin' somthin' on purpose!
Time to evoke the PFAL faith loophole -
"And he did not many mighty works there because - why - Because Jesus had changed? No! Because of THEIR unbelief."
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excathedra
HI TGN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
yeah there were so many people with impurities in their blood in twi, amzing !
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Too Gray Now
Hey Ex!
Yeah... I think Simon is on the right track... rubbin' in all that snake oil - eventually got into all our blood streams.
Those that stayed in had to have some sort of anti-venom or they were the spiritual mongoose that could take a strike and not die from it - I swear to God.
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skyrider
When some vpw-schister keeps pushing this "believing equals receiving" doctrine down my throat.......I refuse to drink more of this kool-aid and start asking questions!
What about Daniel? Was he BELIEVING to be thrown in the lion's den?
What about Shadrak, Meshak and Abendego? Were they BELIEVING to be thrown into the fiery furnace?
What about Samson?
What about Moses?
What about Paul? Was he believing to be imprisoned? Tortured? Shipwrecked? Mocked? Etc?
Doesn't the Bible teach about the devil and his attempts to thwart God's chosen? At times, things are just beyond our "control" (believing).
And then, there are those questions about current situations where someone, knows the truth of God's Word and continues to willfully sin. What about L. Craig Martindale? Was he BELIEVING to fail as the 2nd president? Was he BELIEVING TO SOMEDAY WORK AT UPS? Was he BELIEVING to be isolated from his family and live as a nobody in Toledo?
Just too many questions when I try to put that square peg of wierwillian doctrine into that round hole of everlasting truth.
skyrider
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excathedra
i guess the devil puts you in those situations and then you must believe to get out of them
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excathedra
by the way
what the hay
i think your post was horrible
you don't judge anyone, do you ? just like twi, you judge like mad and then put it back on god
oops excuse me, i'm going to talk to the boss (about you) ha !
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outofdafog
Believing = NO FEAR. Period. Just living and believing.
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outofdafog
"non-mastering grads"
Mike, hahahahaha hahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahaahhahahahaha hahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahah
feel like I am back at TWI hahahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha hahahahahhahaha hahhahahhahaha hhahhahahahahha hahahahahahahhahahahah
get a life Mike!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Too Gray Now
Opps. I spread a wives tale, unwittingly. Please note below...
But it just bolsters the law of the jungle - (which has nothing to do with believing) - it is "the quick - and the dead"
Carry on.
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WordWolf
Actually,
When they ARE bitten,
mongeese are highly resistant to snake venom.
It's been shown that the amount of venom that
would kill one mongoose, if rabbits were bitten
instead, would kill TWENTY rabbits.
Folklore includes things like
"the mongoose digs thru the ground for antidotes."
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Steve!
WW - just to be anal, 2GN is right WRT "mongooses". It *ain't* mongeese.
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Too Gray Now
Ok... I get it, now. If believing = receiving... then - by mathmatical exactness & scientific percision - receiving = believing.
And of course we have this VERY clear verse - which should guide the intrepretation of the other fuzzy verses...
There you have it. Clear as can be...
The Mongoose is gifted with his own special ministry. The Mongoose practices believing (a.k.a. "receiving") - he takes up serpants, they bite him, he lives. He, must BELIEVE. He lives by "his faith".
He has to... believing is a "law" & and it works for snakes and mongooses alike.
Besides, the mongoose is cuter than "Tick" - who everyone knew was VPs spiritual dog.
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Steve!
I'm sorry, it's a rat.
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