I certainly hope that VPW repented of his sins before he died and that LCM does so before he dies. I don't wish hell upon anybody, no matter how much they may deserve it.
quote:Let's try to omit references to Hitler and Osama bin Laden,
Let's just say, take for for eg. the genocidal butcher named Juan Ponce de Leon>>> whoops>>>
see above & below.
quote:... and keep the focus on more accessible "evil-doers," such as Vic and Craig.
quote:when the book finally closes.
hmmm, never thot of Spring, Summer (which in Fl there are 4OUR of them), Autumn, Winter, Etc... fathomed such a thot a final slam shut that's all there is in a book, but sseems to me
quote:Which is it for these two? Sky or fry? Opinions only.
Those of you who don't wish to judge - I absolve you of that task. But don't go away. Without judging yourselves, you can imagine how they might be judged by another, can't you?
Again, we are not going by TWI's suspect theology, which interpreted the bible for us for years, and which has taught us a form of "grace" which permitted LCM & VPW to sin big, that it may likewise abound.
Again, we need not be the judge to say "fry," to say, they'd probably fry.
The question is, do you see them poolside in Paradise, sippin' pina coladas and checkin' out the chickies again, just like old times? Or do you see them sweating out the big fire, paying for the lives they poisoned for a hell of a long time to come? Think of it as a hypothetical prediction if you prefer that to playing final judge.
Are any lives redeemable? How despicable a person should one be, to finally trip beyond the pale? Let's try to omit references to Hitler and Osama bin Laden, and keep the focus on more accessible "evil-doers," such as Vic and Craig.
Seems to me the judgement has already been made by omission of
quote: references to Hitler and Osama bin Laden
to
quote: and keep the focus on more accessible "evil-doers," such as Vic and Craig.
quote:Are any lives redeemable?
Seems to me that there is no life that has ever entered an unrdeeeeeeemabLe to the point of non- exsistance.
Non-existance for all eternity is rather beyound the fathoms my thots and opinions to compare existance for all eternity.
May be we all ever born are just gonna keep kicking each others eternal bizines until we say... "Enough already... Let's live in love~~~~
Well, my opinion, all theology aside, is yeah, they should "fry."
I don't say this from a self-righteous point of view, just from a justice frame of mind. Yeah, I might be a sinner, and do alot of really stupid stuff, but I don't think I've wrecked thousands of lives. Christian ones at that.
A minister, as they both were, who fleeces the flock, is held to a higher standard. I don't think Jesus is very happy with either of them. :D-->
And besides which, I don't think deathbed repentance makes everything hunky dory. It just means you've totally wasted your life, and realized it in time to be sorry. So......big deal. It doesn't mean you're gonna be sipping pina coladas at club med forever.
I don't even remember what the Bible says about heaven and hell anymore...I tend to think that most persons' concept of the hereafter includes some sort of vengeance to the evil ones,a system of rewarding the good ones and ultimately is the great equalizer,providing an eternal "fairness" to our supposedly "unfair" mortal lives which we explain away with phrases such as "What goes around,comes around"...
If there is an all just and loving and merciful God,I don't think there would be a hell...Just as nobody could earn,or deserve an eternal heaven(saved by grace),I don't believe anybody could deserve an eternal damnation of hellfire and brimstone....
I ask myself,if I woke up from death in heaven,would I really care who was in hell?....If I did,it really wouldn't seem like heaven to me...
If I were St Peter at the pearly gates?...I wouldn't tell anybody to go straight to hell,do not pass go,do not collect $200....Eternity seems like a long time...Those that didn't make it would take away a little bit of the 'heaven' from those who did,unless we completely lose our minds when we get there...
Well, my opinion, all theology aside, is yeah, they should "fry."
(snip)
And besides which, I don't think deathbed repentance makes everything hunky dory. It just means you've totally wasted your life, and realized it in time to be sorry. So......big deal. It doesn't mean you're gonna be sipping pina coladas at club med forever.
I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I sure am glad you're not my judge. I don't think that I could meet your standards.
quote: So johniam, where are you saying the original idea came from? And what is the acceptable alternative to eternal punishment? Eternal reward? There are two choices here.
One hundred years is less than a spit wad in the ocean compared to eternity. This makes it easy for me to down play both eternal punishment AND eternal rewards. Those phrases are really oxymorons. Eternity is forever; punishments and rewards are temporary responses to temporary events. The human mind cannot adequately process eternity.
Those who get eternal life get just that: life. Those who don't get death. They just simply won't exist anymore. No need for torment; God is not sadistic. Just because someone hurt you doesn't give you the right to hurt them back forever. That's just an emotional response limited to humans and, again, God will have none of that.
As for VP and LCM, they probably jizzed away some rewards, I dunno.
I don't want anyone to go to hell, even if it is a consuming fire rather than eternal torment.
Really don't think plagiarism and adultery were reasons to for God to condemn someone to hell.
As for LCM, I think he did a lot more bad things intentionally, after being told exactly why those things were wrong, than VPW, but still he's born again, so, he can't go there anyway.
BF, can you imagine any circumstances where someone's behavior was so wicked they might just belong in Hell? Any at all?
As for the "crimes" of plagiarism and adultery, you've removed them from the context in which they were committed, making them sound so casual, so harmless.
I don't think anyone really minds if you plagiarize the back of a cereal box to make a prop for the school play. Nor do too many more people get worked up if adultery is committed between equals, where the marital status of the participants is rocky to begin with.
But here we have a self-proclaimed "man of God," ripping off the teachings of others, presumably not so he can share the light (he could do that anyway) but to ELEVATE himself to a status where he might have considerable power over others.
We also have a man who, as a self-appointed MOG, preyed upon women, some very young, others married and until then, faithful, using his "calling" and "godly vocation" to seduce them, or just as often as not, intimidate them into bed.
How does that grab ya, Dave? What if she were your little sister, or your wife? Or your very own daughter? Hell, what if she was only just in your fellowship, and you were her "leader?" And slick Vic or Craig cornered her, and forced himself upon her? Would you wonder if God set aside a place like Hell just for such Wiermin (pr. "vermin") as Wierwille? And of course, where Rat Man goes, so goeth the Loy Wonder.
Really don't think plagiarism (i'll leave that part out)
quote:Really don't think adultery is a reason for God to condemn someone to hell.
get a clue bible man, adultery is not what took place. soul stealing is what happened.... which led to a disregard for GOD foralmost....ing ever
got it ?
quote:As for LCM, I think he did a lot more bad things intentionally, after being told exactly why those things were wrong, than VPW, but still he's born again, so, he can't go there anyway
oh yeah, who told him those "things" were wrong ? where did he learn those things ?
I think I am just fine with them never existing again.
OK, well, not just fine, but OK knowing they are/ will be dead....forever
as will I be some day.
I think the whole idea of heaven and hell at some point came out of this very topic. Justice. You just really hope that those that don't live long enough to get punished for the terrible things they did will some day get all the a$$whupping they deserve. We also hope in the same way for all of us living mediocre lives being generally good, but never getting any recognition for our deeds, will someday in HEAVEN. **cue angelic singing here**
But I can't say with any certainty that any of that will ever happen. I do think Werwille derserved to be put out of his (well, our) misery before his time, as should LCM but he probobly won't and VPW didn't.
So I guess that's a fry for me.
I have no problem judging, after all, that's what we do.
...A choice of heaven or hell...eternal bliss with God or eternal torment...nothing in between? Let's think about that for a minute...There's what? 6 billion people on earth, not to mention all the ones that have lived and died in the past...but only one of two places to go when you die...it seems that the "line of demarcation" might get a little "gray" when you consider all the variables. I mean, there must be some close calls, wouldn't you say? I would imagine that there's probably not a lot of difference between the guy who just made it into heaven and the guy who just missed heaven...but yet, one gets eternal bliss and the other eternal torment...hardly seems fair...but anyway, back to the question...I'm trying to think of something that one could do in a temporary world that would deserve eternal torment...but I can't. I mean, say we're all in heaven for 250 million years or so and one day someday sighs and says "Have they suffered enough yet?"...The question is too ludicrous to properly answer.
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Jim
I'm with Eagle. Only God knows the full picture on this one. I'm smart enough to know my own limitations.
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markomalley
I certainly hope that VPW repented of his sins before he died and that LCM does so before he dies. I don't wish hell upon anybody, no matter how much they may deserve it.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
THOUGTHS man, just thoughts
&
I also have one of those.
Let's just say, take for for eg. the genocidal butcher named Juan Ponce de Leon>>> whoops>>>
see above & below.
hmmm, never thot of Spring, Summer (which in Fl there are 4OUR of them), Autumn, Winter, Etc... fathomed such a thot a final slam shut that's all there is in a book, but sseems to me
leaves only a reason of two alternatives.
There is also:
broil or bake?
Steak & Shake?
Broiled or boiled?
Shake N Bake (and i helped)?
& many other opinions
paper or plastic?
Plaster or cement?
Eternal Death
Eternal Life
is there a difference?
just my opinion
Songster
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satori001
Those of you who don't wish to judge - I absolve you of that task. But don't go away. Without judging yourselves, you can imagine how they might be judged by another, can't you?
Again, we are not going by TWI's suspect theology, which interpreted the bible for us for years, and which has taught us a form of "grace" which permitted LCM & VPW to sin big, that it may likewise abound.
Again, we need not be the judge to say "fry," to say, they'd probably fry.
The question is, do you see them poolside in Paradise, sippin' pina coladas and checkin' out the chickies again, just like old times? Or do you see them sweating out the big fire, paying for the lives they poisoned for a hell of a long time to come? Think of it as a hypothetical prediction if you prefer that to playing final judge.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Seems to me the judgement has already been made by omission of
toSeems to me that there is no life that has ever entered an unrdeeeeeeemabLe to the point of non- exsistance.
Non-existance for all eternity is rather beyound the fathoms my thots and opinions to compare existance for all eternity.
May be we all ever born are just gonna keep kicking each others eternal bizines until we say... "Enough already... Let's live in love~~~~
hahahahhahahaahaahahaahh
hmmm
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ex10
Well, my opinion, all theology aside, is yeah, they should "fry."
I don't say this from a self-righteous point of view, just from a justice frame of mind. Yeah, I might be a sinner, and do alot of really stupid stuff, but I don't think I've wrecked thousands of lives. Christian ones at that.
A minister, as they both were, who fleeces the flock, is held to a higher standard. I don't think Jesus is very happy with either of them.
:D-->
And besides which, I don't think deathbed repentance makes everything hunky dory. It just means you've totally wasted your life, and realized it in time to be sorry. So......big deal. It doesn't mean you're gonna be sipping pina coladas at club med forever.
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dmiller
Nibblin' on sponge cake
Watchin' the sun bake
All of those tourists covered with oil
Strummin' my six-string
On my front porch swing
Smell those shrimp they're beginnin' to boil
Chorus:
Wastin' away again in Margaritaville
Searching for my lost shaker of salt
Some people claim that there's a woman to blame
But I know it's nobody's fault
I don't know the reason
I stayed here all season
Nothin' to show but this brand new tattoo
But it's a real beauty
A Mexican cutie
How it got here I haven't a clue
Chorus:
Wastin' away again in Margaritaville
Searchin' for my lost shaker of salt
Some people claim that there's a woman to blame
Now I think
Hell, it could be my fault
I blew out my flip-flop
Stepped on a pop-top
Cut my heel had to cruise on back home
But there's booze in the blender
And soon it will render
That frozen concoction that helps me hang on
Wastin' away again in Margaritaville
Searching for my lost shaker of salt
Some people claim that there's a woman to blame
But I know it's my own damn fault
Yes and some people claim that there's a woman to blame
And I know it's my own damn fault
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And that is my final answer
:)-->
I stand behind everything I say,
Until the crowd turns ugly,
and the bottles start flying.
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simonzelotes
I don't even remember what the Bible says about heaven and hell anymore...I tend to think that most persons' concept of the hereafter includes some sort of vengeance to the evil ones,a system of rewarding the good ones and ultimately is the great equalizer,providing an eternal "fairness" to our supposedly "unfair" mortal lives which we explain away with phrases such as "What goes around,comes around"...
If there is an all just and loving and merciful God,I don't think there would be a hell...Just as nobody could earn,or deserve an eternal heaven(saved by grace),I don't believe anybody could deserve an eternal damnation of hellfire and brimstone....
I ask myself,if I woke up from death in heaven,would I really care who was in hell?....If I did,it really wouldn't seem like heaven to me...
If I were St Peter at the pearly gates?...I wouldn't tell anybody to go straight to hell,do not pass go,do not collect $200....Eternity seems like a long time...Those that didn't make it would take away a little bit of the 'heaven' from those who did,unless we completely lose our minds when we get there...
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markomalley
I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I sure am glad you're not my judge. I don't think that I could meet your standards.
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johniam
quote: So johniam, where are you saying the original idea came from? And what is the acceptable alternative to eternal punishment? Eternal reward? There are two choices here.
One hundred years is less than a spit wad in the ocean compared to eternity. This makes it easy for me to down play both eternal punishment AND eternal rewards. Those phrases are really oxymorons. Eternity is forever; punishments and rewards are temporary responses to temporary events. The human mind cannot adequately process eternity.
Those who get eternal life get just that: life. Those who don't get death. They just simply won't exist anymore. No need for torment; God is not sadistic. Just because someone hurt you doesn't give you the right to hurt them back forever. That's just an emotional response limited to humans and, again, God will have none of that.
As for VP and LCM, they probably jizzed away some rewards, I dunno.
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excathedra
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Biblefan Dave
I don't want anyone to go to hell, even if it is a consuming fire rather than eternal torment.
Really don't think plagiarism and adultery were reasons to for God to condemn someone to hell.
As for LCM, I think he did a lot more bad things intentionally, after being told exactly why those things were wrong, than VPW, but still he's born again, so, he can't go there anyway.
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satori001
BF, can you imagine any circumstances where someone's behavior was so wicked they might just belong in Hell? Any at all?
As for the "crimes" of plagiarism and adultery, you've removed them from the context in which they were committed, making them sound so casual, so harmless.
I don't think anyone really minds if you plagiarize the back of a cereal box to make a prop for the school play. Nor do too many more people get worked up if adultery is committed between equals, where the marital status of the participants is rocky to begin with.
But here we have a self-proclaimed "man of God," ripping off the teachings of others, presumably not so he can share the light (he could do that anyway) but to ELEVATE himself to a status where he might have considerable power over others.
We also have a man who, as a self-appointed MOG, preyed upon women, some very young, others married and until then, faithful, using his "calling" and "godly vocation" to seduce them, or just as often as not, intimidate them into bed.
How does that grab ya, Dave? What if she were your little sister, or your wife? Or your very own daughter? Hell, what if she was only just in your fellowship, and you were her "leader?" And slick Vic or Craig cornered her, and forced himself upon her? Would you wonder if God set aside a place like Hell just for such Wiermin (pr. "vermin") as Wierwille? And of course, where Rat Man goes, so goeth the Loy Wonder.
Would you just tell her to "get over it?"
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excathedra
Really don't think plagiarism (i'll leave that part out)
get a clue bible man, adultery is not what took place. soul stealing is what happened.... which led to a disregard for GOD foralmost....ing ever
got it ?
oh yeah, who told him those "things" were wrong ? where did he learn those things ?
you're probably a good guy, just very misguided
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simonzelotes
So,Excie,is soul stealing grounds for going to hell?...Do you believe in an eternal hell?.....What about purgatory?...I'm serious(sorta)...
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excathedra
ps. i could give a flying soul who goes where
let's just keep the "facts" accurate
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excathedra
i only just saw your post, simonzee
i have no frikkin clue
grounds for going to hell or pergatory ?
i don't know
REALLY i have no idead
and i would not, ever, ever, care to decide sucha thing
my post is more about people's perception of how you can harm someone
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simonzelotes
Okay....Thank you....And I think you're hot....
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excathedra
well i would like to jump your hot bones
oops this was supposed to go to a moderator's email
i'm confused... old... but not too old to send private topics hubba hubba
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ex10
Mark,
Don't worry, I didn't take your comments 'the wrong way."
But I must say, you have no idea what my standards are.
:D-->
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lindyhopper
I think I am just fine with them never existing again.
OK, well, not just fine, but OK knowing they are/ will be dead....forever
as will I be some day.
I think the whole idea of heaven and hell at some point came out of this very topic. Justice. You just really hope that those that don't live long enough to get punished for the terrible things they did will some day get all the a$$whupping they deserve. We also hope in the same way for all of us living mediocre lives being generally good, but never getting any recognition for our deeds, will someday in HEAVEN. **cue angelic singing here**
But I can't say with any certainty that any of that will ever happen. I do think Werwille derserved to be put out of his (well, our) misery before his time, as should LCM but he probobly won't and VPW didn't.
So I guess that's a fry for me.
I have no problem judging, after all, that's what we do.
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oenophile
I think that VP and LCM will be like Lucy with..."got some 'splaining to do."
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GrouchoMarxJr
...A choice of heaven or hell...eternal bliss with God or eternal torment...nothing in between? Let's think about that for a minute...There's what? 6 billion people on earth, not to mention all the ones that have lived and died in the past...but only one of two places to go when you die...it seems that the "line of demarcation" might get a little "gray" when you consider all the variables. I mean, there must be some close calls, wouldn't you say? I would imagine that there's probably not a lot of difference between the guy who just made it into heaven and the guy who just missed heaven...but yet, one gets eternal bliss and the other eternal torment...hardly seems fair...but anyway, back to the question...I'm trying to think of something that one could do in a temporary world that would deserve eternal torment...but I can't. I mean, say we're all in heaven for 250 million years or so and one day someday sighs and says "Have they suffered enough yet?"...The question is too ludicrous to properly answer.
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excathedra
ps. simon, i don't believe in eternal hell
maybe purgatory
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