Good points! I myself was thinking we should define true research of the Bible with twi's so called research. Previous posts on thread for ministry year theme said they build biblical understanding by "reading the Word and studying ministry publications." Guess they can't go beyond that since there is no research team.
When I first got involved with TWI, one of the things that attracted me was the admonition to "search the scriptures whether these things were so".
Wierwille presented a way to do that, despite disguising the sources. We were told, at least publically, to not take his word for it, but to "make the Word our own".
Great theory.
In practice, it wasn't quite like that. If your own research came up with something that differed from Wierwille's teaching, you received a pat on the head and a suggestion to "hold in abeyance" your questions, since surely you were not seeing it, weren't mature enough, or were missing some key point. God forbid that Wierwille was actually wrong!
Of course some doctrines did change, but until the edict from above came down, you had to adhere to the old doctrinal position.
More and more "research" came to mean going to TWI books and other publications to find out what to believe, then using "research" materials to solidify that belief.
We were told that "research" means "to search again" (it actually means to search thoroughly). The application of that was to treat TWI writings almost as holy writ.
quote: And besides.....twi needs a RESEARCH TEAM to do quality research. And that, my folks....they do NOT have!!
I occasionally instant message with a corps person on staff at HQ. I was informed that D*vid Ch*voustie is the cabinet overseer for the research department now. I don't know how much research is being done, but he was moved from being a region man to HQ to do this job.
Not that it actually means anything, but I thought I would pass the information along.
Why am I not surprised? I had invited two beautiful college girls to a city-wide twi function/open house with three branches coming together. With background music and some warm fellowship time, things started out fine.
Then......D*vid stepped to the microphone and for the next 8-10 minutes was the most obnoxious emcee I'd ever seen BEFORE going inresidence. I was absolutely appalled.
Needless to say, those two college girls quickly left and I never saw them again.
And, I've NEVER forgotten how D*vid made a complete buffoon of himself that night.
D**v*d.............Wrong thread....great example...OF A CORPS NAZI. I have mixed feelings and thoughts about he and his wife. They were my elder corps..I liked them. They were in Asheville....I liked them. I worked in the trunk office....I picked up D**v*d in NC and drove him to headquarters with me.....I liked him. I was moved to NC....he became the limb coordinator....I liked him, but I was slowly catching on to the corpsNazi thing.
He called me aside to reprove me for not helping the local branch coordinator move.....I had worked 60 hours that week...and paid a local twig coordinator to clean my house and her son to mow my 1/4 acre lawn, so I could house 4 corps folks for the weekend shindig.
FLASH FORWARD 2 months. I had just been thru 2 knee surgeries (one on each knee), lots a wierd procedures....I drag myself to a JESUS CHRIST OUR PROMISED SEED all state weekend. D sends a message to me via the limb guy, "Please don't feel like you need to stand when I am introduced, I understand if you can't stand up."
I know, I know....I am a flaming idiot for staying so long....the NORMAL PERSON would have seen the cult handwriting on the wall 20 YEARS BEFORE.
ror
Oh yeah..back on topic, d**v*d knew pfal and everything Martinfail (LOVE THAT KNIC) better than anyone I ever met. Not surprised he is now the guardian of the "scrolls."
LOL......I shoulda, but I had no guts at the time. I hadn't even considered standing. I was up to my nose in vioxx and pain killers. I had these really cool knee braces that also include cold packs in them.....I couldn't have stood up if Jesus had held me up by the elbows. I had noooooo business being there, and was there against the advice of my md. I had just had a fairly new procedure then, cartiliage transplants..... the local believers had been ANGELS, sheer angels.....but I had no business being at that meeting. Shaz....told you lately that you are great?
When I first got involved with TWI, one of the things that attracted me was the admonition to "search the scriptures whether these things were so".
Wierwille presented a way to do that, despite disguising the sources. We were told, at least publically, to not take his word for it, but to "make the Word our own".
Great theory.
In practice, it wasn't quite like that. If your own research came up with something that differed from Wierwille's teaching, you received a pat on the head and a suggestion to "hold in abeyance" your questions, since surely you were not seeing it, weren't mature enough, or were missing some key point. God forbid that Wierwille was actually _wrong_!
Of course some doctrines _did_ change, but until the edict from above came down, you had to adhere to the old doctrinal position.
More and more "research" came to mean going to TWI books and other publications to find out what to believe, then using "research" materials to solidify that belief.
We were told that "research" means "to search again" (it actually means to search thoroughly). The application of _that_ was to treat TWI writings almost as holy writ.
Funny how that happened.
The "chapter and verse, please" approach was one of the things
that I liked the most. However, it's amazing how often that
came up in the homes, yet how rarely that came up at the root
locales.
I myself was chided for recommending that teenagers
"sit around and read The Word" rather than spend time in the
Blue Book and the other SIALs. That was from a corpse grad.
quote:More and more "research" came to mean going to TWI books and other publications to find out what to believe, then using "research" materials to solidify that belief.
We were told that "research" means "to search again" (it actually means to search thoroughly). The application of _that_ was to treat TWI writings almost as holy writ.
I pointed out several things that were being taught incorrectly. Backed it all up with information and research from "outside" sources. My HFC agreed with my conclusions and was shocked to see that we had all mis-understood it for so long. My research was passed up the ladder because it was so good, interesting and correct.
I never heard anything about it. So, I persued getting clarification on it. Was I right? Are they going to change what they've been teaching? I kept getting put off until we got new wc in our area. They wanted to meet with me and proceeded to tell me how I had mis-understood the explanation and that it wasn't what I thought vee pee and martinfail had been saying, and that maybe they were using extreme examples, but they were not wrong. -->
It was clear that they had thought incorrectly until I brought it up, and then they spent a great deal of time explaining how I had just mis-understood the example. Nevermind the fact that the whole effen ministry had "misunderstood" the example. They were not going to change their teaching. There was no problem as far as they were concerned.
My husband's response, "What did vee pee say about it?" Well, same thing martinfail said about it. "Nuff said." Oh, let's take vee pee's word over God's word?? Take vee pee's word of real Biblical scholars' word-->
Even a man we completely respected in the ministry told us that he has several research items that he had submitted numerous times showing that they were teaching wrong doctrine. Every time they ignored him. So he gave up, but he knows they are teaching wrong doctrine.
--> WHY DID WE PUT UP WITH THAT?? WHY DO PEOPLE CONTINUE TO PUT UP WITH THAT??? -->
Twi's failure to to acknowledge mistakes in their "research" only illustrates how the emphasis was always on THEM and not in discovering truth. By institutionalizing their "research" into a "set" denomiational position, they created their man made idol and placed it on God's throne. By refusing to acknowledge mistakes, they turned their backs on true meekness and instead, become gods unto themselves.
TWI liked to use examples and analogies in their teaching. That's great, but the problem that would come up is that we would spend so much time explaining the analogy and not really looking at what the bible said.
Their explanation of "interpretation" being like dogs running wild was wrong. It was another example of Wierwille misunderstanding Bullinger and Martindale mindlessly parroting Wierwille.
(Belle, I think this is one of the ones that you and I hammered out together via email)
When I pointed out what I thought was error, and asked for clarification, all that I reeceived was an explanation of how dogs had to be trained, and how we shouldn't let our minds run "vagrantly" like wild dogs, etc. Not one rference back to the context of the verse, or the actual meaning of the word translated "interpretation".
Twi's failure to to acknowledge mistakes in their "research" only illustrates how the emphasis was always on THEM and not in discovering truth. By institutionalizing their "research" into a "set" denomiational position, they created their man made idol and placed it on God's throne. By refusing to acknowledge mistakes, they turned their backs on true meekness and instead, become gods unto themselves.
quote: By refusing to acknowledge mistakes, they turned their backs on true meekness and instead, become gods unto themselves.
I talked to them about this and they said that they would readily agree to any mistakes they've made if someone can show them where they have made any. The error, you see, is in your understanding of what was taught, not in the teaching itself.
If they do change something, it isn't really a change, it's just a different way of saying something so that the lesson and meaning are more clear. -->
These are true statements told to me during some of my discussions with wc leadership.
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smurfette
Sky,
Good points! I myself was thinking we should define true research of the Bible with twi's so called research. Previous posts on thread for ministry year theme said they build biblical understanding by "reading the Word and studying ministry publications." Guess they can't go beyond that since there is no research team.
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skyrider
smurfette,
Yeah....reading and studying.....reading and studying....ad nauseum
Why not read a chapter....and ALL MONTH LONG just live and practice what one read???
Ever-learning and unable to come to a ginosko...to KNOW by experience....knowledge of the truth.
Fallatious spirit......isn't that the "spiritual category?"
:D-->
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skyrider
NOW....WAIT....JUST....ONE....MINUTE.
They say its "new research".....but really...
...its only re-packaged old stuff with slight variations.
BINGO........I see, I see.
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Ham
"New light", "research" - ha. Same old scam.
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Ham
Retreat? NEVER! They will just have to hire somebody to turn the bridge around..
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Oakspear
When I first got involved with TWI, one of the things that attracted me was the admonition to "search the scriptures whether these things were so".
Wierwille presented a way to do that, despite disguising the sources. We were told, at least publically, to not take his word for it, but to "make the Word our own".
Great theory.
In practice, it wasn't quite like that. If your own research came up with something that differed from Wierwille's teaching, you received a pat on the head and a suggestion to "hold in abeyance" your questions, since surely you were not seeing it, weren't mature enough, or were missing some key point. God forbid that Wierwille was actually wrong!
Of course some doctrines did change, but until the edict from above came down, you had to adhere to the old doctrinal position.
More and more "research" came to mean going to TWI books and other publications to find out what to believe, then using "research" materials to solidify that belief.
We were told that "research" means "to search again" (it actually means to search thoroughly). The application of that was to treat TWI writings almost as holy writ.
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Nottawayfer
I occasionally instant message with a corps person on staff at HQ. I was informed that D*vid Ch*voustie is the cabinet overseer for the research department now. I don't know how much research is being done, but he was moved from being a region man to HQ to do this job.
Not that it actually means anything, but I thought I would pass the information along.
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skyrider
Wayfer Not!
Why am I not surprised? I had invited two beautiful college girls to a city-wide twi function/open house with three branches coming together. With background music and some warm fellowship time, things started out fine.
Then......D*vid stepped to the microphone and for the next 8-10 minutes was the most obnoxious emcee I'd ever seen BEFORE going inresidence. I was absolutely appalled.
Needless to say, those two college girls quickly left and I never saw them again.
And, I've NEVER forgotten how D*vid made a complete buffoon of himself that night.
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Radar OReilly
Sky and Wayfer (XXOO)
D**v*d.............Wrong thread....great example...OF A CORPS NAZI. I have mixed feelings and thoughts about he and his wife. They were my elder corps..I liked them. They were in Asheville....I liked them. I worked in the trunk office....I picked up D**v*d in NC and drove him to headquarters with me.....I liked him. I was moved to NC....he became the limb coordinator....I liked him, but I was slowly catching on to the corpsNazi thing.
He called me aside to reprove me for not helping the local branch coordinator move.....I had worked 60 hours that week...and paid a local twig coordinator to clean my house and her son to mow my 1/4 acre lawn, so I could house 4 corps folks for the weekend shindig.
FLASH FORWARD 2 months. I had just been thru 2 knee surgeries (one on each knee), lots a wierd procedures....I drag myself to a JESUS CHRIST OUR PROMISED SEED all state weekend. D sends a message to me via the limb guy, "Please don't feel like you need to stand when I am introduced, I understand if you can't stand up."
I know, I know....I am a flaming idiot for staying so long....the NORMAL PERSON would have seen the cult handwriting on the wall 20 YEARS BEFORE.
ror
Oh yeah..back on topic, d**v*d knew pfal and everything Martinfail (LOVE THAT KNIC) better than anyone I ever met. Not surprised he is now the guardian of the "scrolls."
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shazdancer
LOL, Radar! Wouldn't it have felt good to have sent him back a note saying, "Don't worry, I wasn't planning to stand!"
Shaz
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Radar OReilly
SHAZ,
LOL......I shoulda, but I had no guts at the time. I hadn't even considered standing. I was up to my nose in vioxx and pain killers. I had these really cool knee braces that also include cold packs in them.....I couldn't have stood up if Jesus had held me up by the elbows. I had noooooo business being there, and was there against the advice of my md. I had just had a fairly new procedure then, cartiliage transplants..... the local believers had been ANGELS, sheer angels.....but I had no business being at that meeting. Shaz....told you lately that you are great?
ror
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JustThinking
ROR,
You could have skipped the whole thing and told him you and your surgeon had already had a "limb" meeting.
;)-->
JT
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WordWolf
Funny how that happened.
The "chapter and verse, please" approach was one of the things
that I liked the most. However, it's amazing how often that
came up in the homes, yet how rarely that came up at the root
locales.
I myself was chided for recommending that teenagers
"sit around and read The Word" rather than spend time in the
Blue Book and the other SIALs. That was from a corpse grad.
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Belle
I pointed out several things that were being taught incorrectly. Backed it all up with information and research from "outside" sources. My HFC agreed with my conclusions and was shocked to see that we had all mis-understood it for so long. My research was passed up the ladder because it was so good, interesting and correct.
I never heard anything about it. So, I persued getting clarification on it. Was I right? Are they going to change what they've been teaching? I kept getting put off until we got new wc in our area. They wanted to meet with me and proceeded to tell me how I had mis-understood the explanation and that it wasn't what I thought vee pee and martinfail had been saying, and that maybe they were using extreme examples, but they were not wrong.
-->
It was clear that they had thought incorrectly until I brought it up, and then they spent a great deal of time explaining how I had just mis-understood the example. Nevermind the fact that the whole effen ministry had "misunderstood" the example. They were not going to change their teaching. There was no problem as far as they were concerned.
My husband's response, "What did vee pee say about it?" Well, same thing martinfail said about it. "Nuff said." Oh, let's take vee pee's word over God's word?? Take vee pee's word of real Biblical scholars' word
-->
Even a man we completely respected in the ministry told us that he has several research items that he had submitted numerous times showing that they were teaching wrong doctrine. Every time they ignored him. So he gave up, but he knows they are teaching wrong doctrine.
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skyrider
Well......I know who DID NOT put up with it....
.....HQ's Research Team
.....one by one, they left....even W. Cxmmins
.....only R Geek, Catcup and Clxxp were left and they were not at hq (if memory serves me)
.....and, finally these THREE left twi also (bullinger)
:)-->
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GrouchoMarxJr
Twi's failure to to acknowledge mistakes in their "research" only illustrates how the emphasis was always on THEM and not in discovering truth. By institutionalizing their "research" into a "set" denomiational position, they created their man made idol and placed it on God's throne. By refusing to acknowledge mistakes, they turned their backs on true meekness and instead, become gods unto themselves.
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Oakspear
TWI liked to use examples and analogies in their teaching. That's great, but the problem that would come up is that we would spend so much time explaining the analogy and not really looking at what the bible said.
Their explanation of "interpretation" being like dogs running wild was wrong. It was another example of Wierwille misunderstanding Bullinger and Martindale mindlessly parroting Wierwille.
(Belle, I think this is one of the ones that you and I hammered out together via email)
When I pointed out what I thought was error, and asked for clarification, all that I reeceived was an explanation of how dogs had to be trained, and how we shouldn't let our minds run "vagrantly" like wild dogs, etc. Not one rference back to the context of the verse, or the actual meaning of the word translated "interpretation".
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WordWolf
They were pretty successful at it, too.
Some people still worship that idol....
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Belle
I talked to them about this and they said that they would readily agree to any mistakes they've made if someone can show them where they have made any. The error, you see, is in your understanding of what was taught, not in the teaching itself.
If they do change something, it isn't really a change, it's just a different way of saying something so that the lesson and meaning are more clear.
-->
These are true statements told to me during some of my discussions with wc leadership.
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