Fair enough girls. I do know for a fact though, that once she was married at least twenty two years ago, she stayed that way and is still enjoying married life as a wife and mother to some beautiful kids. So, she didn't "wind up with men who likewise only view her as worth for her sexuality".
I really was totally aghast when she told me thought she was ugly though. I don't know why or how she came to that conclusion, but it certainly seemed to disappear after she came into "the carnal knowledge".
I'm glad she is living a fulfilled life now and that that her desire didn't get her heart hurt.
Yes, it is completely normal for a woman to want to be desireable. Even after you are married to your soulmate, it is still something that you don't ever want to lose.
I trust your judgment that this girl was a complete knock-out and considered one of the top ten lookers. It does, however, shock me that some guy didn't take her up on deflowering her. You were just a nice guy to have a hot chick flinging herself on you and not taking her up on it. Not all men are that way. Are you sure she wasn't just "playing" you? You are a good-looking man. Maybe she was giving you line to get you where she wanted? Women can be devious in the sexual category too. Ever hear a group of them talk about sex? ;)-->
Most men will take whatever is offered. I saw it hundreds of times while I was on Staff at HQ. They would spend time with men and do things that they thought would make them more desirable to these guys. The dating scene was a completely sad situation. But, again, I think it was a lack of self-respect and self-worth on the part of the women. I'm sure that the lack of single men propelled the desperation in single women too.
Ya know, I knew that gal all my first year as a dear friend. No, she wasn't faking it. She was crying some really serious tears when this all came out as I hugged her and held her. To me, she was a sweet sistah, with whom there was no way I could take advantage of her.
Now, I must confess, I wasn't always able to "just say no". I did more often than not though.
Well, regarding this topic, I was one of the totally oblivious ones. I honestly believed that we all were endeavoring to live according to God's Word, and to me that meant extramarital and premarital sex were out of the question. And I also assumed that those at the top were so spiritual that obviously they were living that way too.
Thus, I was totally unaware of any goings-on and would probably not have believed any of it.
But, come to think of it, when I was living in a trailor at HQ, my very attractive bunk mate would be gone all night...but I couldn't believe she'd actually be.... nah
And then there was the time my Twig Coordinator came on to me and he was very attractive and wow what a kiss that was, but he was married, so I said No Thank You.
Hmmm and then there was the time a Corps brother I had gone out with a few times was going on at Corps Week about hey, why not, you know it's okay. I thought he was joking and I just laughed it off. It was a JOKE, right???
And then there was some incident when some hot shot at Emporia who was visiting said something to me that totally shocked me and it was obvious to him I was shocked so he gave me a weird look and walked off. Can't remember to this day what the heck he said but I know it happened.
And then there was a time my married branch leader told his wife that one time he had had a "chance" with me but nothing happened. I'm like "Huh?" Maybe it was the time we were sitting on a sofa and he held me for a long time, but I figured it was to comfort me since I'd been through a lot on my previous assignment. His wife told me that after we were all out. She knew of his affairs and was not happy about them at ALL. They are now divorced.
Oh, and my Way Home twig coordinator would be out all night with said branch leader, but I really didn't think much of THAT.
Hmmmm so you see I just didn't GET IT.
But after leaving and hearing Ex-Wayfers and their stories, and then all the recountings here it's pretty hard not to get it.
But, geeze, the TWI I THOUGHT I was in was for sure NOT what it really was.
And if that isn't total justification to LEAVE, well what is?
I think it was so selfish and hypocritical for "leadership" people to sexually use people and then hold themselves up as superior, having the gall to go around reproving people for petty stuff while they were breaking God's Word in the worst way!
I still am shocked, no matter how many more sharings I hear about what people went through, A part of me is still shocked, because of all those years that I was so oblivious.
I must admit, I was exactly like you. Clueless when it came to these sorta' things. Blinded by 'oh I must be imagining things'. And if I knew of something that had gone on, in the bottom of my gut I always thought it was probably some exaggeration of some sort. No man of god would do such a thing.
Well, until my wow year.
Up til then if something had gone on, I just chalked it up to 'bad leader' and we were the lucky ones to have to deal with them. Everyone else was holier than thou leaders.
In my first year in TWI, our fearless leader managed (corps) managed to get my roomate pregnant and have an affair with a married woman. He was one of these 'Branch Wow Rovers' and would do these woman in different cities.
When the proverbial 'dang' hit the fan, the head honchos from HQ got involved. The resolution was...send this guy as far away as possible...some 3,000 miles where no one would know of his doings and he could perhaps continue in his ways in his new unsuspecting area. Which he did.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH TWI!
But, on my wow year, our ordained fearless leader(age probably 30-35) with a pregnant wife had an affair with my just 18 year old wow sister. When all of that came to a head...VP got involved.
When he heard of what had gone on, with Mrs. VP in the meeting as well, VP's opening comment was, "Is THAT what you guys are all worked up about?"
Again, I thought to myself, 'OK, maybe I'm not seeing the big picture here?' -->
But like you, when I arrived at GS, I began to see the puzzle come together. All this started to make sense.
About a year ago, someone told me of an incident that happened to them in the motorcoach. This story OMHO revealed what type of psychopath VP really was. There was no sex involved in this incident, but the other actions that ensued showed me his true colors and what type of power mongrol he was.
All have to say is that when VP did not get what he wanted, he was an ugly man.
When this person left the motorcoach earlier than anticipated, the security guard outside the coach had a shocked look on their face.
Later on that day, this security guard came up to this person and said, "Never look a gift horse in the mouth." This person had no idea what they were talking about because like me she never thought VP was trying to do what we know now he was trying to do.
What an interesting little cult we were apart of. I get the most sick feeling in the bottom of my gut when I think that I actually solicited their wares. -->
I thought of another incident, not exactly in the same vein as the rest but....
I was in a southern state as a Corps Grad and there were also interim corps WOWS there that year.
Well, two of the WOWs got emotionally and sexually involved and she got pregnant. They wanted to get married.
At a corps meeting, the Limb leaders's wife, also Corps (ordained 4th Corps), was going on about what a TERRIBLE thing, and awful horrible mistake it would be for these two to GET MARRIED. After all, she had the Corps go back to!
Deep inside, I was thinking, this doesn't seem right, if they love each other enough to want to get married and have their child, why is that bad? (But I was so Way-brained that these thoughts weren't acknowledged by my real brain, so to speak. Or whatever that process was that we went through where our real thoughts were silenced by the WAY BRAIN...thus like having two brains... anyway...)
How totally screwed up it was. People screwing people they had no right to, but two people who want to make it right are held up as totally wrong.
That is so sad, a baby that was never born and two people who wanted to be together split apart. What cold callous bastards, people with the audacity to think they had the right to run other people's lives and determine their future.
quote: (But I was so Way-brained that these thoughts weren't acknowledged by my real brain, so to speak. Or whatever that process was that we went through where are real thoughts were silenced by the WAY BRAIN...thus like having two brains... anyway...)
The best definition of Way Brain I've seen yet.
By the way, thanks for all those pics you posted. Saw alot of old croneys I knew back then.
Learning of twi's sexual abuse was an evolution of thought for me...In 1976 I first heard of certain "sexual liberties" that were taken by those "spiritual" enough to handle it. I sorta scratched my head but didn't come to any conclusions.
In 1979, I was in residence and saw the pattern of only "the hotties" were given the assignment to work in lcm's personal house...there were rumors...but I still didn't connect the dots.
In 1987, I was told the truth by 2 twi clegy who had left the ministry...I also left the ministry shortly thereafter...although the sexual abuse was only one reason out of many.
Oh yeah, I remember a WOW vet I was with after I graduated from the Corps saying that it really was "OK" for single people to meet each others' needs....I was thinking "Where did she get THAT?"
A lot of little things come back to me, not like I was one of "initiated." I was oblvious, like I said, but looking back on it there were the ripples on the surface that I just didn't get.
Didn't see it because I didn't think it was there.
You know, OutandAbout - - I was like that too for a while, but I heard too much over a period of time, that I just KNEW something was rotten in Denmark - - but I never could put my finger on it.
I too, dismissed the married Limb Leader coming on to me when I was a new grad who lived alone and he just happened to want to stop by to visit and made completely inappropriate conversation with me about my physical attributes.
I dismissed how vpw made a pitstop in the coach to visit our little twig, but the single, interim 7th Corps gal who lived with us, rode with him the 4-hour trip up to the Bay Area for some big event we were doing that year.
I dismissed the other stories we heard of vp with the early corps women - - how COULD people talk about the MOG that way!!!!!!!! geesh!
I dismissed the "rumors" I heard about the married Limb guy, who's secretary lived with his family and the number of times visiting people either walked in on him, or saw him coming out of her bedroom or heard his children off-handedly mention he wasn't available to take a call because he was napping in "Mxxxxx's" room (why they would say that, I have no idea - - that's just how it was relayed).
....and there's a number of more stories like those Tonto mentioned above (we were the same year in residence) (God, I'm glad we were at LEAD for that pajama party!).
I'm still shocked too, outandabout, that it went on, that it was so "casual", that none of the "leaders" addressed it and that I was so naive (I never can remember how to spell that).
I think one of the reason all the splinter group Wierwille-worshippers can turn a blind eye to it is they think that since no leaders ever addressed it - - it surely couldn't have been happening (although I know some of them know differently). It's just a case of those of us who are "out of the Word" speaking evil of their hero(s).
I'm so thankful that I stumbled upon Greasespot when I did so I could connect the dots and not so easily dismiss all the "coincidences" and see the mounting evidence that this was really an evil little organization that hurt hundreds, if not thousands of people over the years.
That kind of group I want NOTHING to do with, nor any of it's "offshoots" when they refuse to have any Godly sorrow and set the record straight before God and the rest of us.
interesting you should say that last part about offshoots, jardi. i've been thinking about offshoots lately. i don't know how to reconcile some of their "denial" -- if you will -- about vee pee
was thinking about starting a thread but probably not :)-->
I'll tell you how I THINK some of them justify it. It's cuz they confuse GAIN with GODLINESS.
There's so many of them who still have MOGdom stars in their eyes...
... or who haven't worked an honest day in their lives and want to figure out some scheme to "live off the abundant sharing" or "I just want to be full time ministry", as some put it --> (though I have to admit that there are a number of them who's coffers are low and have had to actually do some part time jobs).
But, I'm leaning towards concluding, Excie, that for a number of them it is a WILLFUL ignoring, deception, or sin (haven't figured out what to call it yet) that many of them have not set the record straight in the guise of "not speaking evil". That, IMHO, is perpetuating the evil.
Yeah, how convenient. Doing evil and silencing those who might expose it as "speaking evil."
Man, I knew TWI was not where I wanted to be for a long time but I sure didn't see how perverse it really was until getting out and "connecting the dots," as it has been previously said here.
quote:I think one of the reason all the splinter group Wierwille-worshippers can turn a blind eye to it is they think that since no leaders ever addressed it - - it surely couldn't have been happening (although I know some of them know differently). It's just a case of those of us who are "out of the Word" speaking evil of their hero(s).
Yeah....what's up with that?
Last I heard.........that ex-trunk guy, L. Pxnerxxlo didn't want "his followers" coming here to GS.
Man Jardi, you nailed it. Those splinter group leaders who haven't worked an honest day in their lives and want to live off the abundant sharing...I think they should just get jobs and let God worry about how He can possibly get by without their stunning contributions to the move of His word.
Maybe I'm too cynical, but after 13 years of paying for spiritual direction and insite in TWI, I am very leary of anyone who stands to make a buck off of sharing that knowledge, mainstream Christianity included.
Gee, I can't believe how pi$$ed off I still get when I think of how much using of God's people went on and still goes on just so some MOG can get his jollies and a wad of cash, to boot.
Sadly, I didn't realize it was The Way that WAS the problem. Until GS, I thought it was just limited to just about every corps guy I'd run into. How stupid was I? :(-->
My experience was similar to that of Outandabout. I only learned about it in 1997 about 6 months after I had already left, from my sister who finally felt it was safe to confide in me since now I and my parents were out.
After helping her hook up her computer, I went on line and looked up The Way International, came up with John Juedes' site, and found Marsha's story-- this girl had been my roommate in residence. Things she said in the article fit with her behavior and things we had discussed. I was aghast. My sister asked me what I thought about it. I said I don't know, what do you think? Then for the very first time, she told me what happened to her in the motor coach back in 1975 when VPW came for a visit on the WOW field. She had kept it in all those years fearing that if she told me or my parents while we were still in, that we would disown her and she would lose the only family she had. --And she was spot on. Until I left, I would have disowned my own sister or at the very least written her off as "possessed."
Only then did I believe.
And only then was I able in retrospect, to connect the dots with many many incidents that I had simply chalked up to misunderstanding, thinking evil, or isolated incidents.
I always believed that anyone who was or had been clergy at HQ's - especially from the late 70's til VP died - had to know about the sexual misconduct that was going on there.
As far as I'm concerned - if they knew about it - even if in their heart of hearts they knew it was wrong - and did NOTHING - they were complicit just by keeping their mouths shut. Even if they never did it themselves - they condoned it by saying and doing nothing. They approved VP's actions by their silence.
Most of the splinter groups that are in existance today are run by the men who were at HQ's or on staff during that time.
Have any of these men come out and admitted they knew what was going on? Have any of these so-called ministries taught that what happened was WRONG? Have they admitted that there was sexual misconduct in TWI at all?
I don't know the answer. But I think any of these guys who are running one of these off-shoots should come out and admit what they knew, how long they knew it and that it was WRONG. Period.
That's one of the many reasons I won't go near a splinter group - I haven't heard anyone come out and say "VP was f**king women and I knew it. I'm really gut-wrenchingly sorry I did nothing to stop it."
I doubt I'd join up with one even if that happened - but I'd sure have a lot more respect for the person who admitted it.
In 1998 I flat out asked John Shroyer if he knew what had gone on with VPW. He said like me, he never knew it was going on until after he left. While in TWI Shroyer said he never condoned that kind of behavior, and never knew VPW had done it.
I pointedly asked him if he would condone it in CFF and he said absolutely not. And later on, he made a public announcement that adultery is wrong, and will not be tolerated in any form in CFF.
Shroyer never went through the regular Way Corps training program. He was ordained later in his involvement in TWI, and then later still was made "honorary Way Corps." He seemed to be always on a different "loop" than the regular "fully initiated" hard core Way Corps clergy.
So I can see how he might not have known about it, just like I had not known about it even though I was "fully committed" Way Corps, and been around for years and moved and contributed at high levels at times. The "inner circle" knew who to approach, and who NOT to approach with their illicit behavior.
I believe I was never approached because it was known I would never put up with it. I had questioned VPW about what happened when he visited my sister on the WOW field and why she was dismissed after his visit. His reaction was really brusque and unexpected. I believe now I hit too close to home for him, so he knew to leave me alone. Also, I exposed a couple (married but not to each other) I found going at it in Kenyon Hall. If you were otherwise valuable to the ministry, you were kept around, just out of the "inner circle."
Shroyer says he put the dots together after leaving and hearing the same stuff I did. I told him I would never EVER want to be involved with people who did that stuff or allowed it to happen, and he conviced me he never knew while in, and would not tolerate it in CFF.
It is ONLY on the basis of my personal pointed interview (interrogation) of him, that I became involved at all.
You all are free to believe what you will. I made my decision on a face to face inquest with the person in question.
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J0nny Ling0
Fair enough girls. I do know for a fact though, that once she was married at least twenty two years ago, she stayed that way and is still enjoying married life as a wife and mother to some beautiful kids. So, she didn't "wind up with men who likewise only view her as worth for her sexuality".
I really was totally aghast when she told me thought she was ugly though. I don't know why or how she came to that conclusion, but it certainly seemed to disappear after she came into "the carnal knowledge".
Isn't it normal to want to be desireable?
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Nottawayfer
Jonny,
I'm glad she is living a fulfilled life now and that that her desire didn't get her heart hurt.
Yes, it is completely normal for a woman to want to be desireable. Even after you are married to your soulmate, it is still something that you don't ever want to lose.
I trust your judgment that this girl was a complete knock-out and considered one of the top ten lookers. It does, however, shock me that some guy didn't take her up on deflowering her. You were just a nice guy to have a hot chick flinging herself on you and not taking her up on it. Not all men are that way. Are you sure she wasn't just "playing" you? You are a good-looking man. Maybe she was giving you line to get you where she wanted? Women can be devious in the sexual category too. Ever hear a group of them talk about sex?
;)-->
Most men will take whatever is offered. I saw it hundreds of times while I was on Staff at HQ. They would spend time with men and do things that they thought would make them more desirable to these guys. The dating scene was a completely sad situation. But, again, I think it was a lack of self-respect and self-worth on the part of the women. I'm sure that the lack of single men propelled the desperation in single women too.
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J0nny Ling0
Ya know, I knew that gal all my first year as a dear friend. No, she wasn't faking it. She was crying some really serious tears when this all came out as I hugged her and held her. To me, she was a sweet sistah, with whom there was no way I could take advantage of her.
Now, I must confess, I wasn't always able to "just say no". I did more often than not though.
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J0nny Ling0
Wayfernot!, you said;
No, I haven't, but I'll bet it would be fun to listen in!
:D-->
And Wayfernot, do you know me?
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outandabout
Well, regarding this topic, I was one of the totally oblivious ones. I honestly believed that we all were endeavoring to live according to God's Word, and to me that meant extramarital and premarital sex were out of the question. And I also assumed that those at the top were so spiritual that obviously they were living that way too.
Thus, I was totally unaware of any goings-on and would probably not have believed any of it.
But, come to think of it, when I was living in a trailor at HQ, my very attractive bunk mate would be gone all night...but I couldn't believe she'd actually be.... nah
And then there was the time my Twig Coordinator came on to me and he was very attractive and wow what a kiss that was, but he was married, so I said No Thank You.
Hmmm and then there was the time a Corps brother I had gone out with a few times was going on at Corps Week about hey, why not, you know it's okay. I thought he was joking and I just laughed it off. It was a JOKE, right???
And then there was some incident when some hot shot at Emporia who was visiting said something to me that totally shocked me and it was obvious to him I was shocked so he gave me a weird look and walked off. Can't remember to this day what the heck he said but I know it happened.
And then there was a time my married branch leader told his wife that one time he had had a "chance" with me but nothing happened. I'm like "Huh?" Maybe it was the time we were sitting on a sofa and he held me for a long time, but I figured it was to comfort me since I'd been through a lot on my previous assignment. His wife told me that after we were all out. She knew of his affairs and was not happy about them at ALL. They are now divorced.
Oh, and my Way Home twig coordinator would be out all night with said branch leader, but I really didn't think much of THAT.
Hmmmm so you see I just didn't GET IT.
But after leaving and hearing Ex-Wayfers and their stories, and then all the recountings here it's pretty hard not to get it.
But, geeze, the TWI I THOUGHT I was in was for sure NOT what it really was.
And if that isn't total justification to LEAVE, well what is?
I think it was so selfish and hypocritical for "leadership" people to sexually use people and then hold themselves up as superior, having the gall to go around reproving people for petty stuff while they were breaking God's Word in the worst way!
I still am shocked, no matter how many more sharings I hear about what people went through, A part of me is still shocked, because of all those years that I was so oblivious.
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A la prochaine
Outandabout,
Great post.
I must admit, I was exactly like you. Clueless when it came to these sorta' things. Blinded by 'oh I must be imagining things'. And if I knew of something that had gone on, in the bottom of my gut I always thought it was probably some exaggeration of some sort. No man of god would do such a thing.
Well, until my wow year.
Up til then if something had gone on, I just chalked it up to 'bad leader' and we were the lucky ones to have to deal with them. Everyone else was holier than thou leaders.
In my first year in TWI, our fearless leader managed (corps) managed to get my roomate pregnant and have an affair with a married woman. He was one of these 'Branch Wow Rovers' and would do these woman in different cities.
When the proverbial 'dang' hit the fan, the head honchos from HQ got involved. The resolution was...send this guy as far away as possible...some 3,000 miles where no one would know of his doings and he could perhaps continue in his ways in his new unsuspecting area. Which he did.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH TWI!
But, on my wow year, our ordained fearless leader(age probably 30-35) with a pregnant wife had an affair with my just 18 year old wow sister. When all of that came to a head...VP got involved.
When he heard of what had gone on, with Mrs. VP in the meeting as well, VP's opening comment was, "Is THAT what you guys are all worked up about?"
Again, I thought to myself, 'OK, maybe I'm not seeing the big picture here?'
-->
But like you, when I arrived at GS, I began to see the puzzle come together. All this started to make sense.
About a year ago, someone told me of an incident that happened to them in the motorcoach. This story OMHO revealed what type of psychopath VP really was. There was no sex involved in this incident, but the other actions that ensued showed me his true colors and what type of power mongrol he was.
All have to say is that when VP did not get what he wanted, he was an ugly man.
When this person left the motorcoach earlier than anticipated, the security guard outside the coach had a shocked look on their face.
Later on that day, this security guard came up to this person and said, "Never look a gift horse in the mouth." This person had no idea what they were talking about because like me she never thought VP was trying to do what we know now he was trying to do.
What an interesting little cult we were apart of. I get the most sick feeling in the bottom of my gut when I think that I actually solicited their wares.
-->
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outandabout
I thought of another incident, not exactly in the same vein as the rest but....
I was in a southern state as a Corps Grad and there were also interim corps WOWS there that year.
Well, two of the WOWs got emotionally and sexually involved and she got pregnant. They wanted to get married.
At a corps meeting, the Limb leaders's wife, also Corps (ordained 4th Corps), was going on about what a TERRIBLE thing, and awful horrible mistake it would be for these two to GET MARRIED. After all, she had the Corps go back to!
Deep inside, I was thinking, this doesn't seem right, if they love each other enough to want to get married and have their child, why is that bad? (But I was so Way-brained that these thoughts weren't acknowledged by my real brain, so to speak. Or whatever that process was that we went through where our real thoughts were silenced by the WAY BRAIN...thus like having two brains... anyway...)
How totally screwed up it was. People screwing people they had no right to, but two people who want to make it right are held up as totally wrong.
That is so sad, a baby that was never born and two people who wanted to be together split apart. What cold callous bastards, people with the audacity to think they had the right to run other people's lives and determine their future.
....es me off to this day if I think about it.
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A la prochaine
Outandabout,
The best definition of Way Brain I've seen yet.
By the way, thanks for all those pics you posted. Saw alot of old croneys I knew back then.
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outandabout
Thank you for the compliment and your welcome for the pictures. It was very therapeutic to post those and see so much humor in it all!
That Way brain thing could be a whole other topic. ("What is Way Brain?")
Back to our regularly scheduled topic.....
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GrouchoMarxJr
Learning of twi's sexual abuse was an evolution of thought for me...In 1976 I first heard of certain "sexual liberties" that were taken by those "spiritual" enough to handle it. I sorta scratched my head but didn't come to any conclusions.
In 1979, I was in residence and saw the pattern of only "the hotties" were given the assignment to work in lcm's personal house...there were rumors...but I still didn't connect the dots.
In 1987, I was told the truth by 2 twi clegy who had left the ministry...I also left the ministry shortly thereafter...although the sexual abuse was only one reason out of many.
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outandabout
Oh yeah, I remember a WOW vet I was with after I graduated from the Corps saying that it really was "OK" for single people to meet each others' needs....I was thinking "Where did she get THAT?"
A lot of little things come back to me, not like I was one of "initiated." I was oblvious, like I said, but looking back on it there were the ripples on the surface that I just didn't get.
Didn't see it because I didn't think it was there.
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jardinero
You know, OutandAbout - - I was like that too for a while, but I heard too much over a period of time, that I just KNEW something was rotten in Denmark - - but I never could put my finger on it.
I too, dismissed the married Limb Leader coming on to me when I was a new grad who lived alone and he just happened to want to stop by to visit and made completely inappropriate conversation with me about my physical attributes.
I dismissed how vpw made a pitstop in the coach to visit our little twig, but the single, interim 7th Corps gal who lived with us, rode with him the 4-hour trip up to the Bay Area for some big event we were doing that year.
I dismissed the other stories we heard of vp with the early corps women - - how COULD people talk about the MOG that way!!!!!!!! geesh!
I dismissed the "rumors" I heard about the married Limb guy, who's secretary lived with his family and the number of times visiting people either walked in on him, or saw him coming out of her bedroom or heard his children off-handedly mention he wasn't available to take a call because he was napping in "Mxxxxx's" room (why they would say that, I have no idea - - that's just how it was relayed).
....and there's a number of more stories like those Tonto mentioned above (we were the same year in residence) (God, I'm glad we were at LEAD for that pajama party!).
I'm still shocked too, outandabout, that it went on, that it was so "casual", that none of the "leaders" addressed it and that I was so naive (I never can remember how to spell that).
I think one of the reason all the splinter group Wierwille-worshippers can turn a blind eye to it is they think that since no leaders ever addressed it - - it surely couldn't have been happening (although I know some of them know differently). It's just a case of those of us who are "out of the Word" speaking evil of their hero(s).
I'm so thankful that I stumbled upon Greasespot when I did so I could connect the dots and not so easily dismiss all the "coincidences" and see the mounting evidence that this was really an evil little organization that hurt hundreds, if not thousands of people over the years.
That kind of group I want NOTHING to do with, nor any of it's "offshoots" when they refuse to have any Godly sorrow and set the record straight before God and the rest of us.
J.
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excathedra
interesting you should say that last part about offshoots, jardi. i've been thinking about offshoots lately. i don't know how to reconcile some of their "denial" -- if you will -- about vee pee
was thinking about starting a thread but probably not
:)-->
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jardinero
I'll tell you how I THINK some of them justify it. It's cuz they confuse GAIN with GODLINESS.
There's so many of them who still have MOGdom stars in their eyes...
... or who haven't worked an honest day in their lives and want to figure out some scheme to "live off the abundant sharing" or "I just want to be full time ministry", as some put it
--> (though I have to admit that there are a number of them who's coffers are low and have had to actually do some part time jobs).
But, I'm leaning towards concluding, Excie, that for a number of them it is a WILLFUL ignoring, deception, or sin (haven't figured out what to call it yet) that many of them have not set the record straight in the guise of "not speaking evil". That, IMHO, is perpetuating the evil.
J.
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outandabout
Yeah, how convenient. Doing evil and silencing those who might expose it as "speaking evil."
Man, I knew TWI was not where I wanted to be for a long time but I sure didn't see how perverse it really was until getting out and "connecting the dots," as it has been previously said here.
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excathedra
thanks for the response jardi
yeah speaking evil
i got a lot to say about evil
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skyrider
Yeah....what's up with that?
Last I heard.........that ex-trunk guy, L. Pxnerxxlo didn't want "his followers" coming here to GS.
Hmmmmmmm......
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Nottawayfer
Posted by Jonny Lingo:
I don't know. I don't know your real name. I did see your pictures you shared though; your face didn't seem really familiar to me.
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tonto
Man Jardi, you nailed it. Those splinter group leaders who haven't worked an honest day in their lives and want to live off the abundant sharing...I think they should just get jobs and let God worry about how He can possibly get by without their stunning contributions to the move of His word.
Maybe I'm too cynical, but after 13 years of paying for spiritual direction and insite in TWI, I am very leary of anyone who stands to make a buck off of sharing that knowledge, mainstream Christianity included.
Gee, I can't believe how pi$$ed off I still get when I think of how much using of God's people went on and still goes on just so some MOG can get his jollies and a wad of cash, to boot.
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JustThinking
Sadly, I didn't realize it was The Way that WAS the problem. Until GS, I thought it was just limited to just about every corps guy I'd run into. How stupid was I?
:(-->
JT
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Catcup
My experience was similar to that of Outandabout. I only learned about it in 1997 about 6 months after I had already left, from my sister who finally felt it was safe to confide in me since now I and my parents were out.
After helping her hook up her computer, I went on line and looked up The Way International, came up with John Juedes' site, and found Marsha's story-- this girl had been my roommate in residence. Things she said in the article fit with her behavior and things we had discussed. I was aghast. My sister asked me what I thought about it. I said I don't know, what do you think? Then for the very first time, she told me what happened to her in the motor coach back in 1975 when VPW came for a visit on the WOW field. She had kept it in all those years fearing that if she told me or my parents while we were still in, that we would disown her and she would lose the only family she had. --And she was spot on. Until I left, I would have disowned my own sister or at the very least written her off as "possessed."
Only then did I believe.
And only then was I able in retrospect, to connect the dots with many many incidents that I had simply chalked up to misunderstanding, thinking evil, or isolated incidents.
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Hope R.
I always believed that anyone who was or had been clergy at HQ's - especially from the late 70's til VP died - had to know about the sexual misconduct that was going on there.
As far as I'm concerned - if they knew about it - even if in their heart of hearts they knew it was wrong - and did NOTHING - they were complicit just by keeping their mouths shut. Even if they never did it themselves - they condoned it by saying and doing nothing. They approved VP's actions by their silence.
Most of the splinter groups that are in existance today are run by the men who were at HQ's or on staff during that time.
Have any of these men come out and admitted they knew what was going on? Have any of these so-called ministries taught that what happened was WRONG? Have they admitted that there was sexual misconduct in TWI at all?
I don't know the answer. But I think any of these guys who are running one of these off-shoots should come out and admit what they knew, how long they knew it and that it was WRONG. Period.
That's one of the many reasons I won't go near a splinter group - I haven't heard anyone come out and say "VP was f**king women and I knew it. I'm really gut-wrenchingly sorry I did nothing to stop it."
I doubt I'd join up with one even if that happened - but I'd sure have a lot more respect for the person who admitted it.
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Catcup
In 1998 I flat out asked John Shroyer if he knew what had gone on with VPW. He said like me, he never knew it was going on until after he left. While in TWI Shroyer said he never condoned that kind of behavior, and never knew VPW had done it.
I pointedly asked him if he would condone it in CFF and he said absolutely not. And later on, he made a public announcement that adultery is wrong, and will not be tolerated in any form in CFF.
Shroyer never went through the regular Way Corps training program. He was ordained later in his involvement in TWI, and then later still was made "honorary Way Corps." He seemed to be always on a different "loop" than the regular "fully initiated" hard core Way Corps clergy.
So I can see how he might not have known about it, just like I had not known about it even though I was "fully committed" Way Corps, and been around for years and moved and contributed at high levels at times. The "inner circle" knew who to approach, and who NOT to approach with their illicit behavior.
I believe I was never approached because it was known I would never put up with it. I had questioned VPW about what happened when he visited my sister on the WOW field and why she was dismissed after his visit. His reaction was really brusque and unexpected. I believe now I hit too close to home for him, so he knew to leave me alone. Also, I exposed a couple (married but not to each other) I found going at it in Kenyon Hall. If you were otherwise valuable to the ministry, you were kept around, just out of the "inner circle."
Shroyer says he put the dots together after leaving and hearing the same stuff I did. I told him I would never EVER want to be involved with people who did that stuff or allowed it to happen, and he conviced me he never knew while in, and would not tolerate it in CFF.
It is ONLY on the basis of my personal pointed interview (interrogation) of him, that I became involved at all.
You all are free to believe what you will. I made my decision on a face to face inquest with the person in question.
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excathedra
i would not belong to a group that thinks wierwille is the man of god who brought "us" god
i would not belong to a group that is so similar to TWI to make me shutter
to be fair, i would not belong to any group
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