I have never, no not once; NEVER, not even for an instant even through my own guilt, pain or nightmares. NO not even once have I EVER blamed Kevin Smith for the crash that day.
It was an ACCIDENT.
Kevin Smith did NOT crash that truck.
He/we were NOT being reckless.
The wreck happened AFTER he put the paper down. He wasn't distracted by the paper or not driving with his eyes not on the road. His driving was no more distracted by holding that paper than it is by anyone drinking a cup of coffee while driving.
It was windy, gusty. There wasn't a steady wind. it was unpredictable. We had now way of knowing IF another gust would follow and if so, WHEN. The road was narrow with a high shoulder.
Of course in hindsight he should have been MORE careful. He was being careful not to drive much over 50mph which is pretty darn SLOW You can't steer that drastically pulling a trailer and it inched close to the side of the road.
When the front wheel hit the edge of the road, he did everything RIGHT. He didn't fight what was going on, he CARFEFULLY pulled the truck gently to the right & let it stabilize before he pulled it back onto the road.
There was no traffic for miles up the road so he pulled into the middle of the road. The trailer bounced wildly and he did the right moves to correct the fishtailing. Hitting the brakes hard would have been the WRONG thing as the trailer was not tracking with the truck.
Had the ravine not been there we would NOT have crashed at all when we went off the road to the left. It would have been a few intense, bouncy seconds. I wasn't busy driving and I didn't see the ravine either until the last second when it was impossible to avoid.
The crash just wasn't his fault. He wasn't pressured by the evil policies of the evil trustees to do the evaluations. Mine was late because Kevin took extra time with some folks who needed his time to HELP them.
I just wanted to go on record and say, for whatever the word of the guy who watched Kevin do everything possible to SAVE lives that day.
It's not possible to get possessed when you're born again, by accident or unawares. Even if it were, and /or you WERE possessed, JESUS said THEY were FAITHLESS and PERVERSE, for not casting the spirits out.
No matter how you look at it those scenes you spoke of were pure, unadulterated BULL$@#% !!!
quote:...there came to him a man kneeling down before him and saying, "Lord have mercy on my son for he is a lunatic, and sore vexed... I brought him to your (way) deciples and they could not heal him."
Then JESUS answered and said, "O FAITHLESS AND PERVERSE GENERATION, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I suffer you? BRING HIM HERE TO ME."
And Jesus REBUKED THE DEVIL (not the child!!!) and he departed out of him; and the child was cured right then."
If they thought you were so damn possessed why didn't they cast the spirit out???
Please do not ever use crafty to discribe me again. Crafty has a connotation I don't appreciate.
I just went for HELP to sombody I knew had the power to do the right thing. The fact that Don W. knew me only supplied evidence that I was really being drummed out of the Corps unfairly.
2. He was behind schedule because LEAD 104 required more time for its evaluations
Whatever you might factor in, his was the immediate responsibility, and TWI's the ultimate, for the accident - as I see it.
If you've ever taken a defensive driving course beyond high school driver ed, they stress one thing above all else - if you are behind the wheel, you are responsible for whatever goes wrong. It is essential for every driver to "take ownership" of that reality.
The point some of us are making is that The Way International wasn't just some Christian group gone wrong, like so many televangelists. The Way International was, and is, a "cult" - a phenomenon of psycho-social behavior which exerts a web of unhealthy influence over its members, both subtle and overt.
TWI's pervasive culture of secrecy, its claimed monopoly on truth, its reliance upon personalities (VPW first, later LCM and the list of Way celebrities), its alienation from society (the "world"), its hierarchy of initiations (through classes and programs), and many other behaviors follow the pattern. Why do you think the in-res Corps sang childrens' songs at every meal? Why were so many in-res Corps meetings held sitting on a floor, with little room to move? These are strategies for conditioning human behavior. They work, too.
Some here may be relatively new to this site, and therefore this idea. There are some recommended books on the this topic. Reading one or two, one may be in a better position to judge the circumstances of the LEAD 104 incident from a more critical, if at first counter-intuitive, perspective. Some of us are getting our first, close look, but you may need to step back a bit more than you have yet.
You've come a long way since your days in TWI, and you've obviously led a commendable life since, but some of the things you've written suggest to me that you haven't sorted through some of the TWI baggage we all took away with us.
Hopefully lurkers, visitors and newcomers to Greasespot will find the time and inclination to review and reflect upon the resources here - the experiences of others, and recommended books on the topic of cult behavior, and then draw their own best conclusions.
It matters of course that all parties take their portion of responsibility in this tragedy. And I think Howard is obviously a man of inward critical seeking.
But for the ministry to have allowed these conditions was just flat out insane! They had the finances to provide other alternatives. And as far as time goes, well it did belong to them didn't it? They ran the programs, what was an additional day or so?
They loaded up the back end of that thing like they did at Gunnison when they sent the steer to market. And as far as their value on our lives, well sometimes I think they held the value of that steer higher than they did ours.
It's only my recollection of information I've read here and there about behavior modification in groups, specifically cults. There are others here who are much more knowledgable, and probably archived threads with lots of good info.
I haven't read Word Wolf's reply yet.
The Way Corps was more about conditioning than training, in my opinion. The "training" was inconsistent, usually without collateral reading, or limited to pamphlets rather than text books.
Beneath the "training," there was consistent ritual, reinforcing the pre-eminance of TWI and its leaders. This was often nothing more than repetitious prayer, always for the leaders, the root locale, and the "Way Tree" (hierarchy of authority).
They use to do 24 hour prayer events where a specific location was assigned and there was someone leaving the room as someone was entering it. We did it at root locals while in training. But it was done in our states as well. Last for me was within the past 10 years.
They were done for meetings of the board/trustees while making decisions for the ministry. I do know they were done for VP when he died, I can't recall this clearly enough but I want to say we did one for when Don fell asleep but that could be a dream. I kid not on that, sorry.
We use to call in needs to be prayed for. That became too much work for HQ I guess. Oh well.
quote: Then the truck whipped violently fishtailing now to the right. I remember thinking how rough it was but I never though we would CRASH!!! Right into a ditch on the opposite (left) side of the road. We drove right off the left side of the road into what had been open countryside. When I looked up out the windshield, I saw the ditch approaching then realized we were going to have a BAD accident.
I wrote, "We drove right off the left side of the road" under control "into what had been", last time we saw it, "open countryside" with no obstacles to hit.
What caused the CRASH was that he did not see the ditch before he decided the safest way to deal with the trailer bouncing of track & turning the truck was to "go with the it" and do a controlled "ditch" to the left side of the road.
If you were READING your analysis of the terms I used, "corrective action, fishtailing counter-steer... to correct the skid," just MIGHT indicate the writer's having some driving instruction beyond high school driver's ed.
Which I DO. I'm NOT gonna tell you where I got it, you're "just gonna have to take it on faith brother."
He was behind schedule on ONE evaluation, MINE, because he ASKED me if I minded if he took more time to HELP somone who needed him. Understand this. Kevin Smith, little borther to the evil cult leader at LEAD stopped after spending the appropriate amount of time on the evaluation before mine. He ASKED me if I minded if he go BACK and spend some additional time with one of my fellow Corps because he CARED enough to do so.
I CARED ENOUGH ALSO to say, "Cool. I'm in no hurry." I was ENJOYING time ALONE in the wilderness with GOD. I didn't care if he "EVER" came back.
When he did come back he again ASKED if we could do it tomorrow because we'd have plenty of time to TALK on the drive down the mountain. I said OK again because I REALLY didn't care when we did the eval. I wasn't concerned in the LEAST about it. I liked Kevin as a person, I looked foreward to the talk TOMORROW because I was enjoying MY time alone with GOD today.
MY point here is SOME of you here exhibit behavior that suggests you have left the TWI cult and joined another cult. The problem, from MY pov is that you spout "THEY the eternally EVIL ones decieved ME, yet you willingly sign on the dotted line and support the new cult willingly with all of the same vim and vigor of the old.
Here's an idea. Read the BIBLE. While you read your cult books I was searching the sciptures because in them I think I will find eternal LIFE. Life under control, ANY control is DEATH.
This is why GOD gave us FREEDOM of will; because to be controlled by ANYTHING, Even God almighty Himself is DEATH, in part. Why do YOU think the DEVIL created cults? To control God's very elect is the ULTIMATE slap in God's face concerning His beloved sons of God.
I WILL EXHAULT MY THRONE ABOVE THE STAR, GOD!
Just how in the HELL do you think Lucifer does THAT?
Please. Spare me the veiled insults.
quote:Some here may be relatively new to this site,
[since I'm so fricken blind and ignorant to know that, especially seeing as I, mySELF am among the NEWEST]
and therefore this idea.
[that I'm incapable of coming to myself]
There are some recommended books on the this topic.
[by who? You?]
Reading one or two,
[because it is SOOO OBVIOUS to me you haven't]
one
[so as not to overtly offend... YOU]
may be in a better position to judge the circumstances of the LEAD 104 incident
[that I wasn't at]
from a more critical, if at first counter-intuitive, perspective.
[because had you read said book or two, you too would subscribe to the ONLY logical conclusion concerning EVERY single thing about TWI which]
Some of us
[more enlightened than you]
are getting our first, close look, but you may
[i'm gonna say may, to pull you closer to, rather than offend you away from your obvious]
need to step back a bit more than you have yet.
[because you're a still a worshippin' bro'.]
So I still have a ways to go before I "come unto an accurate knowledge of the truth," right?
I am basically the same person now that I was before I ever encountered TWI. You have earned NO right nor reason to commend my life, as you have NO idea what I've done or lived since TWI. (Complementing out of turn is the FIRST and biggest step in cult indoctrination, "duncha know?")
Quit it. Quitit, quitit. (another subtle reference soulmates!)
Were you as well versed in your Bible (...all things that pertain unto life and Godliness...) you would KNOW there is ONLY one position on TWI,
quote: Acts5:38And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
V:39But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
Leave them alone can also accomplished by "getting out" right?
One cannot be OUT and In at the same time.
I see a pattern here too. I'm not saying TWI wasn't a cult, or wasn't bad. BUT. Whenever someone says pretty much anything to the effect of "but there WAS some good w/TWI..."
People like you jump out from the wood work and say, in whatever manner you feel may sway whome you're speaking to,
"Oh no there wasn't."
"No, not now, not EVER, never will be."
My problem with THAT position is that you're JUDGING and encouraging others to JUDGE as well.
quote: ...one may be in a better position to judge the circumstances of the LEAD 104 incident from a more critical, if at first counter-intuitive, perspective.
It was God's WOrd that brought me through my time in TWI, not my personal savvy, and certainly not "craftyness."
"Take no thought on what you will say because the Holy Spirit will give you the words..." is PRECISELY what was thinking when I knocked on the door of the trustee apartment. I firmly believe God worked in me to will and to do of HIS good pleasure and He reminded me that Don W. was at the campus.
I decided to go see Don W. as a fellow laborer WITH God, He told me what to say.
Deny it if you want. I was there. It was ME.
quote: Romans 2
1 THEREFORE YOU have no excuse or defense or justification, O man, whoever you are who JUDGES and condemns another. For in posing as JUDGE and passing sentence on another, you condemn yourself , because you who judge are habitually practicing the very same things [that you censure and denounce].
Argue with that.
and...
quote: 2[but] we know that the judgment (adverse verdict, sentence) of God falls justly and in accordance with truth upon those who practice such things.
3And do you think or imagine, O man, when you judge and condemn those who practice such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape God's judgment and elude His sentence and adverse verdict?
4Or are you [so blind as to] trifle with and presume upon and despise and underestimate the wealth of His kindness and forbearance and long-suffering patience? Are you unmindful or actually ignorant [of the fact] that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repent ([a]to change your mind and inner man to accept God's will)?
5But by your callous stubbornness and impenitence of heart you are storing up wrath and indignation for yourself on the day of wrath and indignation, when God's righteous judgment (just doom) will be revealed.
6For He will render to every man according to his works [justly, as his deeds deserve]:
I understand and agree that people should be warned admonished, etc. about involvement w/TWI. I agree that it should alos be analyzed. Observations should be made, personal responsibility SHOULD be assessed.
However, DON'T judge. DON'T pull others into your cult of judgement.
And lastly, DON'T use ME, or my STORY, to justify your position, assertions or JUDGEMENTS.
" No man knows the things of a man save the spirit of the man that is in HIM."
((((HCW)))) Thankyou sir, your outrage on our behalf means a lot....and I apreciate your substantiation of what I was eventually able to come to understand.
I found out in later years that this leader was simply po`ed at their interim corpes assignment, apparently it wasn`t where they had believed/told God to send them....the only thing I can surmise now, that they probably were ready to take their displeasure out on someone.....seeing as the former bc had left the area only three months earlier with full confidence in me.....I had been taught though, that the leader always spoke for God and that we were to obey....when she said I was posessed, I was devastated....though completely unaware of how it had happened, I absolutely believe her venom and spew.....
Rest assured, that though crushed to the point that I was unable to look at my self in the mirror for almost a year for the shame and self loathing that came from believing myself to be possessed......though there were no beleivers that could reach through the pain of self condemnation......(I was terrified that I would infect them with my evil, or that they would find out my dirty secret in my new area) I even seriously contemplated suicide because I did not want to live if I was posessed.
I believe now, that God took care of me.
It actually led to the implimentation of the most credible miracle that I have ever had the privelege to recieve.
This is hard for me to relate, because though humbled that such extreme measures were implimented to get my attention...and minister to my wounded soul.....I wonder *why me?* ...it bothers me that others suffering (like your friend) was seemingly allowed to continue unabetted.......dunno anyway....(deep breath) here goes....
I believe now that something spectacularly extraordinary had to be pulled off in order to communicate through the pain......to impress upon me without a shadow of a doubt, that I wasn`t repulsive ....that I didn`t need to hide for shame at what I had so inexplicably become......that the bc`s opinion and perceptions were not necessarily God`s....Not only that....but in order for there to be absolutely NO room for doubt.....I was shown not not once, but twice AHEAD of time what was going to happen...It also was so outragious and unlikely, that I KNEW that I that my brain could never have concieved of such a thing.....on top of that....there was a photographer on the spot to take a picture of the event .....and then later sent me a picture .... one that I have kept for years as a reminder of who/what I am....someone worthey of a whole lot of effort to minister to my wounded soul.....after reading your earlier posts...I have wondered if you were that photogragher.
Wierd huh? That though the circumstances led to one of the most devistating events in my life....also opened the door for the most fantasic *healing* and *I truly care about you* .....
ANyway, sorry for the derail hcw, this is your thread and I will edit this shortly.....I just wanted to thank you for your concern, and to tell you that the story has ended well.
To end the presentation, he invited his teammates and a bunch of them, jumped into the back of the truck & they drove off.... 'fade to black.'
Cattle. (?)
Yes cattle. I do not agree in the manner in which lives were transported. If not a proper way for someone of financial means to do then just simply don't do it. There were other ways to get that precious cargo to where it needed to be delivered.
I think that is why I read greasespot. My situation was very bad as well. very bad and life long. But I wonder if that never happen would I know what I know about God and His complete LOVE for me and everyone? Would I be able to stand up for christ and His ways? would I not be bothered with what others think when I truly believe I am am right regardless of who disagree? would I be a strong?
somhow I really really think not.. but I wonder why e way it was nearly everyday.
HCW after I was marked I had IDIOTS say to me how my story really went ya know they knew what happened better than I did although they did not know me or the situation butsomehow they had it all figured out and felt they need to inform me. I would say excuse me HELLO this was my life my situation , HELLO who do you think your talking to? it is ME and Im telling you your worng. Unbelievable as it may sound they still insisted they were right and Iwas wrong. then I knew I knew I was involved in insanity. I knew God saw and knew all what had happened and His loving arms became so loving to me His alone.
for that I wouldnt trade a thing... maybe some do not get it but it doesnt matter to me anymore. Run with the goodness in life .
By the time the driver took "corrective action," it was too late.
Blame the wind. Blame the road. Blame the changing landscape.
Seems to me you said a decision was made to discontinue the evaluation because it was unwise, or something like that, to do it while driving. By that time it was too late. The driver was distracted beyond the point of no return. He didn't see it coming because he was distracted.
Regarding some of the other stuff, I don't have time to answer now, being Sunday and kind of a family day, but I hope you will give me a chance.
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HCW
As far as standing up, talking back. People did that a lot, especially after POP. People got "mad as hell, and we're not gonna take it anymore!" Of my personal pet peeves was the whole money thing. T
HAPe4me
I never participated in it, but I always thought it sounded like "Outward Bound", which has been measurably more successful in achieving it's participant's goals.
So_crates
Yes, but then there's the counter teaching: If you obey the MOG, God will bless you. So what do you do when the MOG orders you to act recklessly? Rhetorical question. SoCrates
HCW
I have never, no not once; NEVER, not even for an instant even through my own guilt, pain or nightmares. NO not even once have I EVER blamed Kevin Smith for the crash that day.
It was an ACCIDENT.
Kevin Smith did NOT crash that truck.
He/we were NOT being reckless.
The wreck happened AFTER he put the paper down. He wasn't distracted by the paper or not driving with his eyes not on the road. His driving was no more distracted by holding that paper than it is by anyone drinking a cup of coffee while driving.
It was windy, gusty. There wasn't a steady wind. it was unpredictable. We had now way of knowing IF another gust would follow and if so, WHEN. The road was narrow with a high shoulder.
Of course in hindsight he should have been MORE careful. He was being careful not to drive much over 50mph which is pretty darn SLOW You can't steer that drastically pulling a trailer and it inched close to the side of the road.
When the front wheel hit the edge of the road, he did everything RIGHT. He didn't fight what was going on, he CARFEFULLY pulled the truck gently to the right & let it stabilize before he pulled it back onto the road.
There was no traffic for miles up the road so he pulled into the middle of the road. The trailer bounced wildly and he did the right moves to correct the fishtailing. Hitting the brakes hard would have been the WRONG thing as the trailer was not tracking with the truck.
Had the ravine not been there we would NOT have crashed at all when we went off the road to the left. It would have been a few intense, bouncy seconds. I wasn't busy driving and I didn't see the ravine either until the last second when it was impossible to avoid.
The crash just wasn't his fault. He wasn't pressured by the evil policies of the evil trustees to do the evaluations. Mine was late because Kevin took extra time with some folks who needed his time to HELP them.
I just wanted to go on record and say, for whatever the word of the guy who watched Kevin do everything possible to SAVE lives that day.
Kevin. It was absolutely NOT your fault.
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HCW
Rascal & Vickles;
This is definately too little too late, but:
It's not possible to get possessed when you're born again, by accident or unawares. Even if it were, and /or you WERE possessed, JESUS said THEY were FAITHLESS and PERVERSE, for not casting the spirits out.
No matter how you look at it those scenes you spoke of were pure, unadulterated BULL$@#% !!!
If they thought you were so damn possessed why didn't they cast the spirit out???
Jerks.
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HCW
Jim;
Please do not ever use crafty to discribe me again. Crafty has a connotation I don't appreciate.
I just went for HELP to sombody I knew had the power to do the right thing. The fact that Don W. knew me only supplied evidence that I was really being drummed out of the Corps unfairly.
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satori001
HCW,
1. He alone lost control of the vehicle
2. He was behind schedule because LEAD 104 required more time for its evaluations
Whatever you might factor in, his was the immediate responsibility, and TWI's the ultimate, for the accident - as I see it.
If you've ever taken a defensive driving course beyond high school driver ed, they stress one thing above all else - if you are behind the wheel, you are responsible for whatever goes wrong. It is essential for every driver to "take ownership" of that reality.
The point some of us are making is that The Way International wasn't just some Christian group gone wrong, like so many televangelists. The Way International was, and is, a "cult" - a phenomenon of psycho-social behavior which exerts a web of unhealthy influence over its members, both subtle and overt.
TWI's pervasive culture of secrecy, its claimed monopoly on truth, its reliance upon personalities (VPW first, later LCM and the list of Way celebrities), its alienation from society (the "world"), its hierarchy of initiations (through classes and programs), and many other behaviors follow the pattern. Why do you think the in-res Corps sang childrens' songs at every meal? Why were so many in-res Corps meetings held sitting on a floor, with little room to move? These are strategies for conditioning human behavior. They work, too.
Some here may be relatively new to this site, and therefore this idea. There are some recommended books on the this topic. Reading one or two, one may be in a better position to judge the circumstances of the LEAD 104 incident from a more critical, if at first counter-intuitive, perspective. Some of us are getting our first, close look, but you may need to step back a bit more than you have yet.
You've come a long way since your days in TWI, and you've obviously led a commendable life since, but some of the things you've written suggest to me that you haven't sorted through some of the TWI baggage we all took away with us.
Hopefully lurkers, visitors and newcomers to Greasespot will find the time and inclination to review and reflect upon the resources here - the experiences of others, and recommended books on the topic of cult behavior, and then draw their own best conclusions.
Just a thought, for what it's worth.
Regards...
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vickles
Wow Satori, that is the best explanation of cult I've seen yet.
Sitting on the floor all the time was a strategy of mind control?
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vickles
I'm asking for more information to try and understand not anything else, satori.
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WordWolf
I'll agree that's a great explanation.
====
I'll even try to answer your question.
(Mind you, I could be completely off-base since I can't read Satori's mind.)
children's songs, sitting on the floor.....
I've been given to understand that there are adults out there in the USA that
like to pretend they're little children in private.
(I'm thinking they don't remember childhood very well.)
Now, leaving aside discussions of what motivates someone to do this,
I think we can agree,
if a grown adult male wants to dress up as Little Lord Fauntelroy or
Buster Brown in his living room, and ride a wooden stick "hobby-horse" around
and pretend he's a little kid, well, whatevah.
Just make sure you pull the shades/blinds/curtains closed first.
On the other hand, Vickles,
let's say some guy (husband, fiancee, steady boyfriend) says to you that
he wants YOU to dress up like Punky Brewster or Pippi Longstocking or whatever
and ride a hobby-horse around the living room.
You would probably say "HAHAHAHAHAHA! No, wait-you were SERIOUS??"
You'd back up a few feet, and say something was wrong.
Why does this guy want to infantilize you? What sick purpose does he have
to make you like a child?
Well, guess what?
If you were in the corpse, you sat thru something like this!
Not to the same degree,
and not for the same reasons, I hope,
but you were infantilized.
Your erstwhile "Father in da werd" kept calling you "kids",
had you sing children's songs,
and had you sit around while being taught,
all to evoke childhood?
Why?
This evokes the responses of childhood-
the reactions that the "adult" knows more than you, and you have to obey,
the idea that you know nothing and have to be told what to do,
that you have to "be a good boy/girl" and obey.
Subtle, yes. Insidious, yes. Intentional? Well, could it possibly have
been accidental? Think carefully before answering.
Could they possibly have been deliberately training people not to be
good LEADERS, but good FOLLOWERS instead?
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WordWolf
Oh, and since HCW seems mostly done, I feel I can chime in a bit on
the main story.
I won't respond to what happened to that woman, since that part hasn't
been completed yet.
As to the actual accident,
yes, the driver was in control of the vehicle.
Elementary driver's education says to drive slowly when encountering
inclement weather, impediments to vision, or difficulties driving.
The driver should have done this.
HOWEVER,
the social stigmas he was labouring under made this choice abhorrent.
He was, essentially, FORCED to use unsafe speed to get the job done
within the inadequate timeframe. If he had used a safe speed, he would
have been late, then ridiculed and held up as an object of scorn.
("Lack of believing", etc.)
So, he was using an unsafe speed.
Further, the vehicle was poorly balanced.
Further, it was overloaded.
Mainly, it was completely unsafe for the passengers.
If you sit thru ANY level of Driver's Ed, you will hear-over and over-
that, no matter how serious the accident, your chances of survival
are tremendously increased so long as you remain in the vehicle.
That's why SEATBELTS are the law.
http://www.snopes.com/autos/techno/seatbelt.asp
The "passengers" (cattle, really) were NOT secured into the vehicle,
nor in anything designed to guarantee safety of the passengers.
THAT was the direct cause of the most severe injuries
(not to discount HCW's injuries as minor-they're obviously longterm)
and was DIRECTLY the fault of the management of the program...
and telling me the management was so ignorant of the program they
"managed" that they were unaware that even a second-hand schoolbus
or passenger van would have been MANY times safer will not wash, since
their primary JOB was to know those very details. They SHOULD have
taken the entire route themselves and seen firsthand if it was safe
to take that route in that vehicle, if it was the "standard" route.
Of course, this would have been an entirely different story if they
had....
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houseisarockin
It matters of course that all parties take their portion of responsibility in this tragedy. And I think Howard is obviously a man of inward critical seeking.
But for the ministry to have allowed these conditions was just flat out insane! They had the finances to provide other alternatives. And as far as time goes, well it did belong to them didn't it? They ran the programs, what was an additional day or so?
They loaded up the back end of that thing like they did at Gunnison when they sent the steer to market. And as far as their value on our lives, well sometimes I think they held the value of that steer higher than they did ours.
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excathedra
interesting about that children stuff.... barf
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satori001
Hey Vickles,
It's only my recollection of information I've read here and there about behavior modification in groups, specifically cults. There are others here who are much more knowledgable, and probably archived threads with lots of good info.
I haven't read Word Wolf's reply yet.
The Way Corps was more about conditioning than training, in my opinion. The "training" was inconsistent, usually without collateral reading, or limited to pamphlets rather than text books.
Beneath the "training," there was consistent ritual, reinforcing the pre-eminance of TWI and its leaders. This was often nothing more than repetitious prayer, always for the leaders, the root locale, and the "Way Tree" (hierarchy of authority).
More later.
Regards...
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houseisarockin
They use to do 24 hour prayer events where a specific location was assigned and there was someone leaving the room as someone was entering it. We did it at root locals while in training. But it was done in our states as well. Last for me was within the past 10 years.
They were done for meetings of the board/trustees while making decisions for the ministry. I do know they were done for VP when he died, I can't recall this clearly enough but I want to say we did one for when Don fell asleep but that could be a dream. I kid not on that, sorry.
We use to call in needs to be prayed for. That became too much work for HQ I guess. Oh well.
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HCW
satori
Can you read?
I wrote, "We drove right off the left side of the road" under control "into what had been", last time we saw it, "open countryside" with no obstacles to hit.
What caused the CRASH was that he did not see the ditch before he decided the safest way to deal with the trailer bouncing of track & turning the truck was to "go with the it" and do a controlled "ditch" to the left side of the road.
If you were READING your analysis of the terms I used, "corrective action, fishtailing counter-steer... to correct the skid," just MIGHT indicate the writer's having some driving instruction beyond high school driver's ed.
Which I DO. I'm NOT gonna tell you where I got it, you're "just gonna have to take it on faith brother."
He was behind schedule on ONE evaluation, MINE, because he ASKED me if I minded if he took more time to HELP somone who needed him. Understand this. Kevin Smith, little borther to the evil cult leader at LEAD stopped after spending the appropriate amount of time on the evaluation before mine. He ASKED me if I minded if he go BACK and spend some additional time with one of my fellow Corps because he CARED enough to do so.
I CARED ENOUGH ALSO to say, "Cool. I'm in no hurry." I was ENJOYING time ALONE in the wilderness with GOD. I didn't care if he "EVER" came back.
When he did come back he again ASKED if we could do it tomorrow because we'd have plenty of time to TALK on the drive down the mountain. I said OK again because I REALLY didn't care when we did the eval. I wasn't concerned in the LEAST about it. I liked Kevin as a person, I looked foreward to the talk TOMORROW because I was enjoying MY time alone with GOD today.
MY point here is SOME of you here exhibit behavior that suggests you have left the TWI cult and joined another cult. The problem, from MY pov is that you spout "THEY the eternally EVIL ones decieved ME, yet you willingly sign on the dotted line and support the new cult willingly with all of the same vim and vigor of the old.
Here's an idea. Read the BIBLE. While you read your cult books I was searching the sciptures because in them I think I will find eternal LIFE. Life under control, ANY control is DEATH.
This is why GOD gave us FREEDOM of will; because to be controlled by ANYTHING, Even God almighty Himself is DEATH, in part. Why do YOU think the DEVIL created cults? To control God's very elect is the ULTIMATE slap in God's face concerning His beloved sons of God.
I WILL EXHAULT MY THRONE ABOVE THE STAR, GOD!
Just how in the HELL do you think Lucifer does THAT?
Please. Spare me the veiled insults.
So I still have a ways to go before I "come unto an accurate knowledge of the truth," right?
I am basically the same person now that I was before I ever encountered TWI. You have earned NO right nor reason to commend my life, as you have NO idea what I've done or lived since TWI. (Complementing out of turn is the FIRST and biggest step in cult indoctrination, "duncha know?")
Quit it. Quitit, quitit. (another subtle reference soulmates!)
Were you as well versed in your Bible (...all things that pertain unto life and Godliness...) you would KNOW there is ONLY one position on TWI,
Leave them alone can also accomplished by "getting out" right?
One cannot be OUT and In at the same time.
I see a pattern here too. I'm not saying TWI wasn't a cult, or wasn't bad. BUT. Whenever someone says pretty much anything to the effect of "but there WAS some good w/TWI..."
People like you jump out from the wood work and say, in whatever manner you feel may sway whome you're speaking to,
"Oh no there wasn't."
"No, not now, not EVER, never will be."
My problem with THAT position is that you're JUDGING and encouraging others to JUDGE as well.
It was God's WOrd that brought me through my time in TWI, not my personal savvy, and certainly not "craftyness."
"Take no thought on what you will say because the Holy Spirit will give you the words..." is PRECISELY what was thinking when I knocked on the door of the trustee apartment. I firmly believe God worked in me to will and to do of HIS good pleasure and He reminded me that Don W. was at the campus.
I decided to go see Don W. as a fellow laborer WITH God, He told me what to say.
Deny it if you want. I was there. It was ME.
Argue with that.
and...
I understand and agree that people should be warned admonished, etc. about involvement w/TWI. I agree that it should alos be analyzed. Observations should be made, personal responsibility SHOULD be assessed.
However, DON'T judge. DON'T pull others into your cult of judgement.
And lastly, DON'T use ME, or my STORY, to justify your position, assertions or JUDGEMENTS.
" No man knows the things of a man save the spirit of the man that is in HIM."
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rascal
((((HCW)))) Thankyou sir, your outrage on our behalf means a lot....and I apreciate your substantiation of what I was eventually able to come to understand.
I found out in later years that this leader was simply po`ed at their interim corpes assignment, apparently it wasn`t where they had believed/told God to send them....the only thing I can surmise now, that they probably were ready to take their displeasure out on someone.....seeing as the former bc had left the area only three months earlier with full confidence in me.....I had been taught though, that the leader always spoke for God and that we were to obey....when she said I was posessed, I was devastated....though completely unaware of how it had happened, I absolutely believe her venom and spew.....
Rest assured, that though crushed to the point that I was unable to look at my self in the mirror for almost a year for the shame and self loathing that came from believing myself to be possessed......though there were no beleivers that could reach through the pain of self condemnation......(I was terrified that I would infect them with my evil, or that they would find out my dirty secret in my new area) I even seriously contemplated suicide because I did not want to live if I was posessed.
I believe now, that God took care of me.
It actually led to the implimentation of the most credible miracle that I have ever had the privelege to recieve.
This is hard for me to relate, because though humbled that such extreme measures were implimented to get my attention...and minister to my wounded soul.....I wonder *why me?* ...it bothers me that others suffering (like your friend) was seemingly allowed to continue unabetted.......dunno anyway....(deep breath) here goes....
I believe now that something spectacularly extraordinary had to be pulled off in order to communicate through the pain......to impress upon me without a shadow of a doubt, that I wasn`t repulsive ....that I didn`t need to hide for shame at what I had so inexplicably become......that the bc`s opinion and perceptions were not necessarily God`s....Not only that....but in order for there to be absolutely NO room for doubt.....I was shown not not once, but twice AHEAD of time what was going to happen...It also was so outragious and unlikely, that I KNEW that I that my brain could never have concieved of such a thing.....on top of that....there was a photographer on the spot to take a picture of the event .....and then later sent me a picture .... one that I have kept for years as a reminder of who/what I am....someone worthey of a whole lot of effort to minister to my wounded soul.....after reading your earlier posts...I have wondered if you were that photogragher.
Wierd huh? That though the circumstances led to one of the most devistating events in my life....also opened the door for the most fantasic *healing* and *I truly care about you* .....
ANyway, sorry for the derail hcw, this is your thread and I will edit this shortly.....I just wanted to thank you for your concern, and to tell you that the story has ended well.
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HCW
You know? Yesterday I watched "The Road to the Super Bowl" on TV. (My beloved Steelers didn't make it.
--> )
Jerome Bettis was awarded a big, black Chevy pickup truck for winning an award as this years' toughest player in the NFL.
To end the presentation, he invited his teammates and a bunch of them, jumped into the back of the truck & they drove off.... 'fade to black.'
Cattle. (?)
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HCW
My children sing children's songs at school... Indoctrination?
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houseisarockin
Yes cattle. I do not agree in the manner in which lives were transported. If not a proper way for someone of financial means to do then just simply don't do it. There were other ways to get that precious cargo to where it needed to be delivered.
And have a good day.
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HCW
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HCW
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HCW
That's from Matthew chapter 8 Read it for yourself.
VPW used to say that.
The read it for yourself part, that is.
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mj412
yes. HCW and rascal.
I think that is why I read greasespot. My situation was very bad as well. very bad and life long. But I wonder if that never happen would I know what I know about God and His complete LOVE for me and everyone? Would I be able to stand up for christ and His ways? would I not be bothered with what others think when I truly believe I am am right regardless of who disagree? would I be a strong?
somhow I really really think not.. but I wonder why e way it was nearly everyday.
HCW after I was marked I had IDIOTS say to me how my story really went ya know they knew what happened better than I did although they did not know me or the situation butsomehow they had it all figured out and felt they need to inform me. I would say excuse me HELLO this was my life my situation , HELLO who do you think your talking to? it is ME and Im telling you your worng. Unbelievable as it may sound they still insisted they were right and Iwas wrong. then I knew I knew I was involved in insanity. I knew God saw and knew all what had happened and His loving arms became so loving to me His alone.
for that I wouldnt trade a thing... maybe some do not get it but it doesnt matter to me anymore. Run with the goodness in life .
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Jim
Done, sorry, didn't mean it to be offensive.
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satori001
Well, then again, they're children.
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satori001
HCW,
By the time the driver took "corrective action," it was too late.
Blame the wind. Blame the road. Blame the changing landscape.
Seems to me you said a decision was made to discontinue the evaluation because it was unwise, or something like that, to do it while driving. By that time it was too late. The driver was distracted beyond the point of no return. He didn't see it coming because he was distracted.
Regarding some of the other stuff, I don't have time to answer now, being Sunday and kind of a family day, but I hope you will give me a chance.
Regards...
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