Is it really true that family coordinators can't have a mortgage? You mean to tell me that twi would rather not have a fellowship in that area, a solid family with a mortgage can't serve as twi coordinators? That sounds awfully strange, why would they mandate that on the FC level, won't they be cutting off their noses to spite their faces? As of 1991 (the last time I attended fellowship) this mandate wasn't true. If it exists today, it's really dumb.
It's really true, OM. If you have a mortgage you are no longer considered an advanced class grad because you are not living up to the ac grad standard. You can not be a hfc, you can not attend the ac or the ac special and you can not go wd or wc.
You can offer your home for them to run classes, hold fellowships and meetings. You can provide snacks and serve on class crews. You can give minimum 15% of your income to TWI. You can string chairs. You can clean the wc's home, mow their yard and any other piddly things they ask you to do. You can help the wc when they move. You can ALSO babysit for free when asked.
Doesn't it sound great? ;)--> I'll bet you can't wait to get that invitation to return.
Various leaders would kick around the idea and discuss what was really meant by debt etc. Of course they were trying to start "word in business" then and business people know how useful debt can be.
Wowser. Like they were really "qualified". About as qualified to define what is really adultery. "We'll research it and get back to you".
Who in their right mind would subject themselves to that???
Hope, that says a lot. Even I was not in my right mind, for a while. The "da verd says.. owe no man ANYTHING, end of story" actually did make sense- for a while. They sure had a problem with the next half of the verse. "Why don't they read the next verse?" comes to mind..
I've said it before and still believe it that much of what went on in twi was not motivated by any plan, logic, or reason - short term or long term. It was motivated by pure emotion, and then held onto with an insane committment.
My3cents.......yeah, I'd agree with that. From what I saw, martinfail was motivated ALOT by emotion..... and he coined it, spiritual anger. It infuriated the H out of him everytime March assignments rolled around....... he wanted TO MICROMANAGE THE CORPS PROGRAM and thus, the corps!!
Lots of insane things were done in the face of "spiritual anger." Psychotic bahavior, actually.
Is it really true that family coordinators can't have a mortgage? You mean to tell me that twi would rather not have a fellowship in that area, a solid family with a mortgage can't serve as twi coordinators? That sounds awfully strange, why would they mandate that on the FC level, won't they be cutting off their noses to spite their faces? As of 1991 (the last time I attended fellowship) this mandate wasn't true. If it exists today, it's really dumb.
"Dumb" is not the right word....it's too twisted for that.
How about......bizarre? controlling? jaded? eccentric? bonehead? forehead-fanaticism?
When "the forehead speaks".......fanaticism prevails!
With all of the talk of not being able to be "In the Corpse" or being able to go to the classes like the "AC" and what not by being in debt or having a morgage, could this also be the reason TWI only had 5 in the WAY CORPSE class??????????
I don't really know but sounds plasable to me. Only 5 people that the leaders would feel were qualified to be CORPSE.
I don't know if it's an issue of being qualified for the corpse as much as it is being dumb enough. So many wayfers I knew before I left were just going through the motions. Most seemed to have no desire to do more than the minimum. It was pretty obvious that the corpse that were there lived a pretty bad lifestyle. Overworked. Rarely paid. It was almost embarrassing to see their lack of physical abundance. (To use TWI terms)
danteh1, I agree with JT. People are just about numb to TWI, it's teachings and legalism. They are going through the motions, like JT said.
They have also heard the stories from the corpse about their training and, even if told in a joking way, it clearly illustrates the harshness of the program. That, and people see the extreme callousness of the corpse, the hard personalities and people don't want to be like that. They know the changes in personalities of people who go through the program and they are not good.
They also see how much time TWI takes of their time, how much more manipulated their schedules and finances are (even if they are no longer on TWIt salaries). The corpse on the field are not living the materially abundant life and it scares people who are used to not having to worry about having their "needs" met. These "back door" mortgages are an example of how desperate people have become for financial security - REAL, tangible, predictable financial security - NOT "believe God" financial security.
The same thing for going on staff or WD. People have heard horror stories...people living in dorms, no private phones, limited or no internet access, no privacy, being forced to stay on staff, mandatory lunch times, very strict working conditions, long hours, no money.... There aren't enough people left in TWI for there to be any new people to sucker into these things. Maybe the kids, but kids wise up a lot quicker these days than we seemed to. Thank God for little ones! They are also very internet savvy and know how to look up things - including GSpot. :D-->
Not only are corps & others becoming numb to twi doctrine.....but COMMON SENSE RULES when so many factors can empower innies to refute doctrinal droning.
1. Martindale was ousted in 2000.....and he didn't go back inrez. :D-->
2. The current BOD are little more than peers, to many corps.
3. Low mortgage rates.....why NOT buy now???
4. Not getting any younger.....if 50 years old, better buy NOW!
5. Some corps are distancing themselves from a twi-life-plan.
Remember, some of these corps had THREE ROLLER COASTER YEARS when lcm gave his full-time "revelation." When this "revelation" changed, the corps were fired. Crazy times.
Not to side track things too much but.. wonder why ole Loy did no go back in "training"? Maybe he knew what kind of treatment he had coming. Probably well remembered what he did to the other poor victims.
I think so, Mr. H. I think he also had too big of an ego to be taken down that many notches. Remember this is the man that loved saying he was "President of a MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR corporation!" and that he could be CEO of ANY FORTUNE 500 COMPANY if he wanted to be. -->
I heard one person confess to me that he had given his life to TWI and, nearing middle age, he had no wife, no family, no retirement to speak of and absolutely nothing to show for everything he had given to TWI. "Pretty pathetic, eh?", he asked. What can you say to someone like that?
Not to side track things too much but.. wonder why ole Loy did no go back in "training"? Maybe he knew what kind of treatment he had coming. Probably well remembered what he did to the other poor victims.
Surprise! Surprise!
I'd rather see an UN-sermon, than hear one any day. :)-->
My brother-in-law ran at least a household fellowship for nearly 30 years for TWI. When his mother grew so old she could no longer care for herself, he took her in to his house which was too small for his family and his mom. So, he bought a house that was big enough for 4 kids, himself and his wife, and his mother. His reward for taking care of his mother?
His household fellowship was taken away.
Now, my bible says that if you don't take care of your mother, you are worse than an infidel. So he takes his Mom into his home and cares for her, doing what the Word says to do.
His reward for obedience to the Word is to be busted back to nothing, despite being qualified for several decades to run a fellowship.
And, yeah, he is still with TWI, taking the abuse and lapping up every bit of it.
Another great example of the insanity and double standard that continues to go on at...... The Way.
I look back and think....what has changed there in the past 20 years....mmmm...pretty much nothing except the control. They are alot more controlling and Martindale's influence turned it from being a nice little cult into being a controlling and manipulating, big cult. Now it has turned full cycle...only now it is a controlling and manipulating little cult again.
This reminds me of a conversation that Howard Al**n once had....when ask by a believer who was being kicked out/fired...."isn't this our ministry." H.A. responded with something close to...... you cannot speak out against the corporation in this way and if you worked for any other corporation in America..... blah blah blah blah blah.
If you worked for any other corporation in America, you would be able to:
question authority,
complain to your co-workers without worry about being fired
have a meeting with your superiors,
spend your money the way you want to,
ask for a raise...heck, EXPECT a raise each year....
get paid overtime and be able to turn it down,
eat lunch when and where you want,
quit when you want to
live where you want to
have pets if you want to
actually have a retirement plan
put as much into that retirement plan as you wish
have actual health insurance
have medical procedures done without requiring approval from your superiors
and soooo much more.....
But, TWI isn't ANY corporation in America....In fact, I thought they were a NON-PROFIT CHURCH. What would the IRS think about that kind of philosophy from Howard?
my ex and i and 2 other cuples who were and still dear friends were wittnessed to back in the early 70's by 2 guys from mich.who were wow that year,
they are also still good friends.
i had a GOOD job which i have retired from a nice house which was alwys open for our friend swimming pool and all.
we all took pfal then intermeadiat and advanced in gunnison
i went on to be twig leader for 5 or 6 years . we loved it.
the fellowship was sweet. we witnessed to famol;y and friends it really was a loving twin.
there wasn't anything we wouldn't do for one another.
then desaster set in.
the limb leader stepped in cause we were growing so much and the sex thing started to happen.
i took one of our young gals for an abortion in a nother town with his child.
all a secrete
then he told me i had to go wow.
he wanted me out of dodge to sort of speak
well my wife was all for it
leaving a good job, a nice house and packing the kids up and moving.
i was active in our community as well{school board, local theater,etc.
well because i wouldn't go, i now have an ex wife!! man they so tried to run our lives.
when corps came to town we treated them like kings and queens.
i actually gave one couple a car and 2 weeks later when we were late for a sunday twig because we were at my parents for dinner my a$$was reamed in front of everyone.
i don't miss that $HIT AT AL BUT I DO MISS A LOT OF the wonderful people that have crossed my path that who were in twi.
I wish my family knew about the backdoor mortgage stuff when we were in, the california realestate has gone up the last 5 years, we'd have made so much moola.
It may well be that Bonnie and I were just 'lucky' to have stumbled onto the method of buying homes and financing them with mortgages such that TWI did not care.
We have had mortgages, sometimes multiple, from our first in 1985, until now. We were 'in', as late as 1997 and no body ever confronted us concerning our properties, or their mortgages.
It may well be that Bonnie and I were just 'lucky' to have stumbled onto the method of buying homes and financing them with mortgages such that TWI did not care.
We have had mortgages, sometimes multiple, from our first in 1985, until now. We were 'in', as late as 1997 and no body ever confronted us concerning our properties, or their mortgages.
Galen....from your posts, you moved around alot with the military.
From my experiences, I can tell you that the military personnel in twi were in a whole different situation. Generally, they were given lots of leeway.....if they had duty or commitments on base, who was going to discount that?? Not some little corps guy.
Again, from my experiences....I saw the military guys come and go, at will. They did not have the same "oversight" :D--> from corps looking over their shoulder. Therefore, for you and others to have mortgages without confrontation doesn't surprise me in the very least.
Thank God for our military! Even twi didn't mess around with them! :D-->
"Galen....from your posts, you moved around alot with the military."
Yes generally every three years.
"From my experiences, I can tell you that the military personnel in twi were in a whole different situation. Generally, they were given lots of leeway.....if they had duty or commitments on base, who was going to discount that?? Not some little corps guy."
I did see times when corpse would get into someone's face to 'beleive' to get out of a military commitment, to attend some ministry function. But generally they did not understand the differneces between a civilian job and a military career. I would have to think, that to treat a civilian job in that way [coming or going at a moments notice] would get them fired just as well.
"Again, from my experiences....I saw the military guys come and go, at will. They did not have the same "oversight" :D--> from corps looking over their shoulder. Therefore, for you and others to have mortgages without confrontation doesn't surprise me in the very least."
Since so few corpse would except an ordination, they could not come on base by themselves, so assigning corpse to a military base seemed kind of useless. They did not speak the same language as does the military. Though a base with 10,000 men 18-24 years old stationed on it would seem an ideal location for outreach. Of course big bases are huge compared to the little ones that I spent most of my time on.
"Thank God for our military! Even twi didn't mess around with them! :D-->"
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Belle
It's really true, OM. If you have a mortgage you are no longer considered an advanced class grad because you are not living up to the ac grad standard. You can not be a hfc, you can not attend the ac or the ac special and you can not go wd or wc.
You can offer your home for them to run classes, hold fellowships and meetings. You can provide snacks and serve on class crews. You can give minimum 15% of your income to TWI. You can string chairs. You can clean the wc's home, mow their yard and any other piddly things they ask you to do. You can help the wc when they move. You can ALSO babysit for free when asked.
Doesn't it sound great?
;)--> I'll bet you can't wait to get that invitation to return.
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Ham
Wowser. Like they were really "qualified". About as qualified to define what is really adultery. "We'll research it and get back to you".
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Ham
Hope, that says a lot. Even I was not in my right mind, for a while. The "da verd says.. owe no man ANYTHING, end of story" actually did make sense- for a while. They sure had a problem with the next half of the verse. "Why don't they read the next verse?" comes to mind..
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skyrider
My3cents.......yeah, I'd agree with that. From what I saw, martinfail was motivated ALOT by emotion..... and he coined it, spiritual anger. It infuriated the H out of him everytime March assignments rolled around....... he wanted TO MICROMANAGE THE CORPS PROGRAM and thus, the corps!!
Lots of insane things were done in the face of "spiritual anger." Psychotic bahavior, actually.
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skyrider
"Dumb" is not the right word....it's too twisted for that.
How about......bizarre? controlling? jaded? eccentric? bonehead? forehead-fanaticism?
When "the forehead speaks".......fanaticism prevails!
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danteh1
With all of the talk of not being able to be "In the Corpse" or being able to go to the classes like the "AC" and what not by being in debt or having a morgage, could this also be the reason TWI only had 5 in the WAY CORPSE class??????????
I don't really know but sounds plasable to me. Only 5 people that the leaders would feel were qualified to be CORPSE.
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JustThinking
danteh1,
I don't know if it's an issue of being qualified for the corpse as much as it is being dumb enough. So many wayfers I knew before I left were just going through the motions. Most seemed to have no desire to do more than the minimum. It was pretty obvious that the corpse that were there lived a pretty bad lifestyle. Overworked. Rarely paid. It was almost embarrassing to see their lack of physical abundance. (To use TWI terms)
JT
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Belle
danteh1, I agree with JT. People are just about numb to TWI, it's teachings and legalism. They are going through the motions, like JT said.
They have also heard the stories from the corpse about their training and, even if told in a joking way, it clearly illustrates the harshness of the program. That, and people see the extreme callousness of the corpse, the hard personalities and people don't want to be like that. They know the changes in personalities of people who go through the program and they are not good.
They also see how much time TWI takes of their time, how much more manipulated their schedules and finances are (even if they are no longer on TWIt salaries). The corpse on the field are not living the materially abundant life and it scares people who are used to not having to worry about having their "needs" met. These "back door" mortgages are an example of how desperate people have become for financial security - REAL, tangible, predictable financial security - NOT "believe God" financial security.
The same thing for going on staff or WD. People have heard horror stories...people living in dorms, no private phones, limited or no internet access, no privacy, being forced to stay on staff, mandatory lunch times, very strict working conditions, long hours, no money.... There aren't enough people left in TWI for there to be any new people to sucker into these things. Maybe the kids, but kids wise up a lot quicker these days than we seemed to. Thank God for little ones! They are also very internet savvy and know how to look up things - including GSpot.
:D-->
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skyrider
Not only are corps & others becoming numb to twi doctrine.....but COMMON SENSE RULES when so many factors can empower innies to refute doctrinal droning.
1. Martindale was ousted in 2000.....and he didn't go back inrez.
:D-->
2. The current BOD are little more than peers, to many corps.
3. Low mortgage rates.....why NOT buy now???
4. Not getting any younger.....if 50 years old, better buy NOW!
5. Some corps are distancing themselves from a twi-life-plan.
Remember, some of these corps had THREE ROLLER COASTER YEARS when lcm gave his full-time "revelation." When this "revelation" changed, the corps were fired. Crazy times.
The fallout continues......
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Ham
Not to side track things too much but.. wonder why ole Loy did no go back in "training"? Maybe he knew what kind of treatment he had coming. Probably well remembered what he did to the other poor victims.
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Belle
I think so, Mr. H. I think he also had too big of an ego to be taken down that many notches. Remember this is the man that loved saying he was "President of a MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR corporation!" and that he could be CEO of ANY FORTUNE 500 COMPANY if he wanted to be.
-->
I heard one person confess to me that he had given his life to TWI and, nearing middle age, he had no wife, no family, no retirement to speak of and absolutely nothing to show for everything he had given to TWI. "Pretty pathetic, eh?", he asked. What can you say to someone like that?
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JustThinking
Belle,
How about "so what are you waiting for?! Get going!"
JT
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Belle
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skyrider
Surprise! Surprise!
I'd rather see an UN-sermon, than hear one any day.
:)-->
Uh, that's not how it goes.
:P-->
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Catcup
My brother-in-law ran at least a household fellowship for nearly 30 years for TWI. When his mother grew so old she could no longer care for herself, he took her in to his house which was too small for his family and his mom. So, he bought a house that was big enough for 4 kids, himself and his wife, and his mother. His reward for taking care of his mother?
His household fellowship was taken away.
Now, my bible says that if you don't take care of your mother, you are worse than an infidel. So he takes his Mom into his home and cares for her, doing what the Word says to do.
His reward for obedience to the Word is to be busted back to nothing, despite being qualified for several decades to run a fellowship.
And, yeah, he is still with TWI, taking the abuse and lapping up every bit of it.
Yup, sump'n wrong in the upper stow-ry.
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skyrider
Another fine example.....strip the responsibilities of the faithful and reward the obedient oppressors of evil.
Twi calls the light darkness.....and the darkness light.
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Paradiseden
Another great example of the insanity and double standard that continues to go on at...... The Way.
I look back and think....what has changed there in the past 20 years....mmmm...pretty much nothing except the control. They are alot more controlling and Martindale's influence turned it from being a nice little cult into being a controlling and manipulating, big cult. Now it has turned full cycle...only now it is a controlling and manipulating little cult again.
This reminds me of a conversation that Howard Al**n once had....when ask by a believer who was being kicked out/fired...."isn't this our ministry." H.A. responded with something close to...... you cannot speak out against the corporation in this way and if you worked for any other corporation in America..... blah blah blah blah blah.
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Belle
If you worked for any other corporation in America, you would be able to:
question authority,
complain to your co-workers without worry about being fired
have a meeting with your superiors,
spend your money the way you want to,
ask for a raise...heck, EXPECT a raise each year....
get paid overtime and be able to turn it down,
eat lunch when and where you want,
quit when you want to
live where you want to
have pets if you want to
actually have a retirement plan
put as much into that retirement plan as you wish
have actual health insurance
have medical procedures done without requiring approval from your superiors
and soooo much more.....
But, TWI isn't ANY corporation in America....In fact, I thought they were a NON-PROFIT CHURCH. What would the IRS think about that kind of philosophy from Howard?
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
if i may comment.
here is my sad story.
my ex and i and 2 other cuples who were and still dear friends were wittnessed to back in the early 70's by 2 guys from mich.who were wow that year,
they are also still good friends.
i had a GOOD job which i have retired from a nice house which was alwys open for our friend swimming pool and all.
we all took pfal then intermeadiat and advanced in gunnison
i went on to be twig leader for 5 or 6 years . we loved it.
the fellowship was sweet. we witnessed to famol;y and friends it really was a loving twin.
there wasn't anything we wouldn't do for one another.
then desaster set in.
the limb leader stepped in cause we were growing so much and the sex thing started to happen.
i took one of our young gals for an abortion in a nother town with his child.
all a secrete
then he told me i had to go wow.
he wanted me out of dodge to sort of speak
well my wife was all for it
leaving a good job, a nice house and packing the kids up and moving.
i was active in our community as well{school board, local theater,etc.
well because i wouldn't go, i now have an ex wife!! man they so tried to run our lives.
when corps came to town we treated them like kings and queens.
i actually gave one couple a car and 2 weeks later when we were late for a sunday twig because we were at my parents for dinner my a$$was reamed in front of everyone.
i don't miss that $HIT AT AL BUT I DO MISS A LOT OF the wonderful people that have crossed my path that who were in twi.
dennis arsenault
rumford maine
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nandon
I wish my family knew about the backdoor mortgage stuff when we were in, the california realestate has gone up the last 5 years, we'd have made so much moola.
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Galen
It may well be that Bonnie and I were just 'lucky' to have stumbled onto the method of buying homes and financing them with mortgages such that TWI did not care.
We have had mortgages, sometimes multiple, from our first in 1985, until now. We were 'in', as late as 1997 and no body ever confronted us concerning our properties, or their mortgages.
:-)
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skyrider
Galen....from your posts, you moved around alot with the military.
From my experiences, I can tell you that the military personnel in twi were in a whole different situation. Generally, they were given lots of leeway.....if they had duty or commitments on base, who was going to discount that?? Not some little corps guy.
Again, from my experiences....I saw the military guys come and go, at will. They did not have the same "oversight"
:D--> from corps looking over their shoulder. Therefore, for you and others to have mortgages without confrontation doesn't surprise me in the very least.
Thank God for our military! Even twi didn't mess around with them!
:D-->
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justloafing
Great story and a big time "Ditto" to that last Sentence.
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Galen
skyrider:
"Galen....from your posts, you moved around alot with the military."
Yes generally every three years.
"From my experiences, I can tell you that the military personnel in twi were in a whole different situation. Generally, they were given lots of leeway.....if they had duty or commitments on base, who was going to discount that?? Not some little corps guy."
I did see times when corpse would get into someone's face to 'beleive' to get out of a military commitment, to attend some ministry function. But generally they did not understand the differneces between a civilian job and a military career. I would have to think, that to treat a civilian job in that way [coming or going at a moments notice] would get them fired just as well.
"Again, from my experiences....I saw the military guys come and go, at will. They did not have the same "oversight"
:D--> from corps looking over their shoulder. Therefore, for you and others to have mortgages without confrontation doesn't surprise me in the very least."
Since so few corpse would except an ordination, they could not come on base by themselves, so assigning corpse to a military base seemed kind of useless. They did not speak the same language as does the military. Though a base with 10,000 men 18-24 years old stationed on it would seem an ideal location for outreach. Of course big bases are huge compared to the little ones that I spent most of my time on.
"Thank God for our military! Even twi didn't mess around with them!
:D-->"
Bless you.
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