I agree, as to no suprise that the "rank and file" were having sex. Shoot, at the ROA in 1974 you could sleep with someone... no need to go to sleep, lonely.
Frankly, that was one of the attractions for us guys. We could get love, and give love AND sex.
As long as everything was done "in love", it was OK.... I think, Laleo, that this was the general "rule" to follow at that time; if it was done in love, then it was RIGHT. No questions asked. I smelled marijuana more than once at the early ROAs. (Don't ask how I knew what it smelled like, ok? :o-->)
But the level of love and acceptance in the atmosphere was very, very high. that by ITSELF was intoxicating.
I remember walking around with a huge grin :D--> :D--> on my face for days after... not because I got laid (which I didn't, because my girl friend was not there and I believed in being faithful) - but I LOVED the feeling of acceptance that was so THICK you could NOT explain it...
Except to call it the Love of God, which passes understanding.
...the feeling of acceptance that was so THICK you could NOT explain it...
Except to call it the Love of God, which passes understanding.
It was a kind of "hysteria," not in the ordinary sense of the word.
Emotions are contagious, and they bypass our rational thinking. Yawning is contagious. So is panic, according to a recent study. Why not others?
If you could "fall in love" with an individual, why not with a group of individuals? A family, a tribe, a cult? Outside of families, and sports fans, it doesn't often happen in our culture, but there is no less logic in group infatuation as there is when we fall in love with an individual person.
Maybe it relates to some vestigial, instinctive behavior (a normally dormant operating system sub-routine) locked in our brains. Maybe our feelings aren't as selective as we think, or maybe there are additional criteria for triggering the "love mechanism."
I don't deny the love of God, but I doubt the acceptance you felt at TWI is the same thing that motivated Jesus to die on the cross. Ya know?
At the Advanced Class Special (a live class at some University – sorry – my 50+ year old brain can’t remember the name of it or the year – 1979???)
I recall that the local paper wrote a scathing personal attack on VP. He read it one night before the whole auditorium. People hissed, ooooed, and laughed at each charge.
One of the accusations was “… and it is commonly reported that Wierwille has sex with female followers…â€.
To which, when VPW read this, he cracked up! Laughed hard. Pounded his hand… in ridicule!! The WHOLE class (which was comprised of Way Corps, Clergy, and Advanced Class Graduates) responded with mocking, uproarious laughter… at the paper’s accusation!! We ALL laughed at the sheer outlandish idea of the such a baseless claim from an “outsider†– after all WE were the insiders. We would know if such a thing were so. And it wasn’t – (as far as ALL of knew – except for a few… of course).
Ohmygosh! I was there, at Ball State and had forgotten about that part of it. Maybe the shock of who was pronounced as the next president, erased the rest. I don't know. Thank you for bringing that up. Yes, that explains why I would think that about him, that he was respectable and unjustly persecuted by the press and religious leaders--and Mrs. vp was always there with him right by his side to back him up.
wow. i appreciate all the responses to this thread.
and my computer crashed and burned, so ive been offline for few days.
so i hope to get back to this subject soon.
a few things real quick tho, cuz some of the responses seem to not have understood (or read) what i wrote...(which seems understandable..lol)
to help put the magnitude of this spike into a different perspective: lets pretend that "stairway to heaven" has 1000 steps, and VP was born and raised to live and dance somewhere around the 100-300 step range, and with all sorts of disfunction and taboos and such going in those basic steps. then his fasting and suffering and seeking elevated certain cognitive and visual lines of his intelligence and awareness to the 500 to 600 range for a few years of his early pre-ministry life.
and so his spiritual spike was not a sustained peek into any sort of "ultimate realities" or actual holy Ground (that 1000th step and beyond), but rather, that one-time Porky's peak into waves of consciousness that were simply much higher than VPs own spiritual center of gravity (100-300 range). and this peak/peek was then translated, for perhaps throughout rest of his life and ministry, through the lense of where he had stabilized (midwestern germanic christian american farmboy). (btw - we all do the same sort of thing, in our own ways)
what i am suggesting, is those parts of what he saw was "real" and "genuine," but to reduce the vast (but navigable) complexity of such things into "it all comes down to (blank)" is to reduce the entire ongoing truth of the matter into a tiny box. which is simple, but not very helpful. in fact, it really just prolongs the suffering, it seems.
we all have many multiple lines of intelligence developing all at once. different lines may take the growth-lead at different times in our lives, and then even lose this lead to others later on. this is true for all of us, and VP and LCM.
quote:
I enjoyed reading your interpretation very much of vps life and works. I'm still trying to figure out if you're hindu, buddhist, sufi, because some of the things you're saying sound familiar, just can't place them.
thanks waterbuff. and the truth is, i'm both all and neither of those things you mentioned, and then some. if i was to label myself, today, i would say im a "Christian," mostly. The Bible is my favorite book of all, especially the "Book of Revelation." but names and titles and such are not digested so well around here (which i can understand), so i avoid them, as much as possible, really. even with myself.
i guess what i try to do is recognize and honor the commonalities and differences of things like form and function, "light and sound," in all schools of thought, regardless of linguistic limitations and backgrounds, or place and time in history. i have seen that there are signatures and archetypes which seem to "float on top" of the waters, so to speak, and so reveal the shape of the waves...much how light glitters on the surface of the ocean. eventually, what is seen and heard when reading a thing is not just the old dead written translations on paper, but the evergrowing network of wisdom behind/beneath/above/beside them all.
in light of this, i guess i could write a looong list of religions i "belong" to. and besides, if Christ is king of kings and lords of lords, then there is no religion where Christ has not taught. and as it is written: "the son of man has nowhere to rest his head" ("son of man" not being just Jesus or Christ, but that which comes next after Adam, after being processed thru the feminine, which then would include Jesus, of course. and so, Jesus speaking of "the coming of the son of man" is something like a prediction of an evolutionary event, of which Jesus knew he was a pioneer...so, not super-people with superpowers)
...not to mention things about the majesty of Abraham and priesthood of Melchizadek, which i'll not go into detail here.
to simply begin to perceive of this deeper, universal level of spiritual understanding is a big part of The change we seek from Christ and in scripture. no, not that Jesus the man comes and kicks everyone's foot and makes peace in the world, but that Christ returns to earth (outer) from within (the gate to heaven). which alters (by expanding) our perceptions of cause and effect, among other things. someday, if/when this becomes commonplace, the prophecies will also be true on the outside, i suppose.
and so, i consider myself a follower of Christ, basically. and the Bible is my main book. i've practiced seeing and studying the complexities and simplicities and functional distinctions of the logos as generic divine form inherent in all things from the beginning. ya know...that schticke. ;)-->
not sure if that makes me a bona fide Christian or not, tho. depends whom you ask, i guess.
Maybe it relates to some vestigial, instinctive behavior (a normally dormant operating system sub-routine) locked in our brains. Maybe our feelings aren't as selective as we think, or maybe there are additional criteria for triggering the "love mechanism."
Yeah, Satori. I dont recall whose psychological model this is from (Lovinger?), but we naturally move from egoic "God as mouth" stage (self-centered love) to mythic membership stage (group centered love) to some sort of accomplishment-based love, to a universal open love. But these are all considered the "first tier". there stages both below them and above them (such as tribal love, which is pre-egoic, or non-dual love, which is post-post-universal).
Firstly, I believe that Greasespot Cafe is still and should continue to be a forum for ex-TWI'ers first and foremost.
Not those who happen to be ex-JW's, ex-LDS, ex-SDA, ex-etc..don't they have their own ex-forums ? or are their forums not as good ?!!
The problem is that they appear to be bringing their own in-grained beliefs and we have to troll through the illogicity of things like JESUS being GOD all over again.
I want 'innies' to see that 'sanity' lies beyond the walls of TWI not within !!
Yes, I suppose I knew some of it was going on amongst us college students--so what was new?
But, not vp!!!!! That was unthinkable that he would (1) do it with the flock and (2) that so many adults in the group wouldn't have found out and spilled the beans. Afterall, Dr. Weingarner, Dr. what'sername--obgyn, the Strauhaul's, the Lynn's, and the list goes on and on. These sure all looked like respectable people to me who wouldn't have stood for something like that. So, yeah, I was deceived.
Allan, although your response was not aimed at me or anyone in particular - I would like to respond to something that surfaced in me from what you said.
I think others may be here because we have more in common with those "other" cultists than we may realize.
Lots of people have been a part of a controlling organization. Ex _______whatever.
In that sense, I would expect that we all rather smell alike - we all sort of got into a similar barrel of pickles.
We were in a barrel of pickles when someone slipped out and slappeda "THEM" label on our barrel covering up our label which said "US".
So we fought back by going to their barrel and slapped a label on theirs that said "THEM"
+odd brings up some excellent points, Hindu or otherwise... IMO - one is that we are integrated.
If we can't get past these exclusive labels (read: inclusive except for those who don't fit in our barrel) then we are destined to live on the flatland of step number 300 out of a 1,000 (to borrow from his example).
In or Out, Bond or Free, Male or Female, Jew or Gentile, - no difference is seen when we see all as 1.
Integration is a "higher" place where spirituality flows from oneness.
To tie this back in to the thread topic, was THIS kind of onness thinking part of VPWs spirituality??
I think he saw it, and said it, and taught it, but... sadly, did not have the discipline to do it. He spiked. But came back to the flatland of "THEM" and "US".
Because he seemed to lack the will, heart, discipline, integrity, and knowledge to maintain that level of spiritual clarity.
my dear friend, i don't know if he had spiritual clarity -- to maintain
**
this is a great thread
i'm not in a position to decide whether he loved god. but i am in a position to say he did not love me as a human being - worthy of love and respect
good lord, as far as sex and college kids and that stuff, no problem, i get it.... but i do have a problem with him.... it's a whole different story....
The problem is that they appear to be bringing their own in-grained beliefs and we have to troll through the illogicity of things like JESUS being GOD all over again.
I want 'innies' to see that 'sanity' lies beyond the walls of TWI not within !!
Allen Dear,
THe whole point of GSC is that having left TWI we GET THE FREEDOM to bring "in-grained beliefs" here. OUr belief systems and if part of your system is to believe in the TRinity so be it.
THe whole pont of GSC is that it can accommodate anyone!! Sanity, being subjective, isn't the issue--Freedom of Expression is.
As I read your post, MY impression is that you wish to impose your own view on the rest of us--maybe you don't really intend that --but once you decide what is or is not appropriate for others to believe you are on the slippery slope tWI all over again.
It took some of us a lot of seeking to find our spritual home. Mine is the LDS church but I went through the Salvation Army, Free Methodists, United Methodists, Nazarine, Congregational , Assemby of God, Lutheran, Presbyterian, TWI and a few others along the way to get here. SO you see it is possibole to EX-TWI and a host of Other EX's as well
I want 'innies' to see that 'sanity' lies beyond the walls of TWI not within !!
Okay Al, you can worry about them if you like. They don't give a damn about you of course. And why should they, you copped out possess-o? You're probably a 5-star general or somethin' because you're so dang subtle. What's your name?? Get thee behind me! (Just kidding.)
They can come here and take or leave whatever they like. They contribute NOTHING to this place. They can stay in TWI, and they can rot for all I care.
Was that insensitive? I just gotta renew my mind one of these days.
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
And so it is that he must face the one true Master, King and Lord and face his demons and himself in the fire.
And somehow Christ made His way thru this little one man show also. There were and are men and women who got the oppurtunity to take a look at the scriptures. I pray that those who are continuing in his wake come to see and realize the downfall of that which wants to live and breath the freedom which it rightfully holds.
To see how this man turned to hate Jesus Christ, which is hating God. Without the Son you can't have the Father. For they are the same. And He is manifest in many ways as the scriptures declare.
1916-61 is all mrs. w could put in a book. Perhaps that's all that's worth knowing for history and 100 or a 1000 years from now. Cause it seemed to turn much worse from there. Even vpw rode this wave till his death.
And so a spike or a moment of true spiritual clarity could have been there imo.
My kid's kids will not know this person. But others are and will be around that will be similar. And here we are who lived thru it-though some didn't.
So for learnings sake the eyes can open up and see....
As long as everything was done "in love", it was OK.... I think, Laleo, that this was the general "rule" to follow at that time; if it was done in love, then it was RIGHT. No questions asked. I smelled marijuana more than once at the early ROAs. (Don't ask how I knew what it smelled like, ok? :o-->)
But the level of love and acceptance in the atmosphere was very, very high. that by ITSELF was intoxicating.
I remember walking around with a huge grin :D--> :D--> on my face for days after... not because I got laid (which I didn't, because my girl friend was not there and I believed in being faithful) - but I LOVED the feeling of acceptance that was so THICK you could NOT explain it...
Except to call it the Love of God, which passes understanding.
ROA '74. There was a high level of love and acceptance. You're sure right about that. I was a teenager then, still young, not even working yet, and was forbidden to go. I went anyway, with a carload of college kids who were traveling through on their way west. I don't even remember who arranged that ride, or who paid my admission, or who gave me money for food, but I do remember I didn't have a dime to bring with me, but didn't feel the lack. And after four days there, I took home with me that feeling of utter relief in finally finding some goodness in the world. Then, eventually, I spent a lot of years, too many years, trying to recapture that feeling.
Sometimes late at night, if I'm out for a walk, and the night is clear, I'll watch as a random plane thunders across the sky, and wonder who the passengers are, if they are heading back home, or heading for a new life; whether they're visiting children, or lovers, or trying to put a marriage back together, or on a business trip, or just going some place new, or revisiting some place familiar. It's that moment of being en route, suspended in air, in forward motion, knowing, but not knowing, what's ahead. That's what The Way was for me. I don't know where the momentum came from, or how I got caught up in it all, or what role Wierwille played in it, whether the energy came from him, or if he was as swept away as we were. Love is such a subjective thing, Too Gray. It's hard to know where it comes from or why it leaves. But it did seem to be in New Knoxville, if only briefly. How it got there, why it left, and why some found solutions, and others heartache, I don't know.
Anyway, another time, another thread, we'll reminisce about this stuff. But, yeah, just wanted to let you know I know what you mean.
I think it's easy to dismiss VP Wierwille when I think of him as a total monster, who was a huckster and grifter from the start. Yeah, I was young and naive and stupid. I spent my youth involved in something that I now am not so proud of. Toss it off as being youthful naivete, no problem.
But if I think a little deeper, ummm. I knew the man, and my life was changed by his. In a real, human to human relationship, my life has been shaped by his. Hmmmmm. Not so easy to dismiss my past association. It gets a little more complicated for me personally. Maybe I make too much of small kindnesses. But then, maybe not.
I guess my point is, the easy way out is to think that he was an ogre who was only out for his own personal gain, right from the start. It costs me a little more to consider the alternative, as Sir Guess suggested.
Whatever, I can only speak for myself and my own experiences.
Not sure what you mean, satori. It (whatever "it" is) must have meant something to you at one time, didn't it?
ex10: I only knew him from a distance. It wasn't his kindness that I saw or felt. In fact, I thought he was a little intimidating. Not sure what went wrong when, or if it was ever even "right." There was a community there, though, and it seemed genuine to me, at least at one time.
Not sure what you mean, satori. It (whatever "it" is) must have meant something to you at one time, didn't it?
There was a community there, though, and it seemed genuine to me, at least at one time.
I was thinking of ways to answer that, even before you asked. I guess it had to do with the community, or "family." Of course it meant something.
ROA 74 may have been the zenith of that phenomenon. When I came along a few years later, it was a fragmented version. I saw it within fellowships, and individuals, but not everywhere.
Whatever "it" was, that tide was already receding, and a new tide rising. I remember "it" inspired much nostalgia in its wake. Even so, there was a new zeitgeist, an enthusiasm for all the wonderful improvements they saw around them. They were taking "it" to a new level. Or something.
I think you do. To quote Mr. Occam, the simplest explanation is usually the right one.
He was pathological, we were kids and easily impressed. The amalgam of those elements was a heady concoction which resulted in many of us attributing significance to WayWorld that it simply didn't merit. So says me, anyway...
Vic was a huckster, a slimy snake oil salesman and a good one at that. Any good salesman knows that you have to alter your techniques to suit the person you are selling right away. Linda, he would never try to rape you because he knew he didn't have a snoball's chance in h to sell you on those lies. He knew if he melted your face he wouldn't be able to get whatever he wanted from you.
He wasn't 100% pure evil either. No one is. I'm sure he was kind when he felt like it and, more often, when it suited his purposes....whatever those purposes were. Even abusive parents and alcoholics have moments of clarity and lovingkindness. It doesn't make them good people or take away from the fact that they are horrible, abusive, evil people.
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Too Gray Now
Laleo,
I agree, as to no suprise that the "rank and file" were having sex. Shoot, at the ROA in 1974 you could sleep with someone... no need to go to sleep, lonely.
Frankly, that was one of the attractions for us guys. We could get love, and give love AND sex.
As long as everything was done "in love", it was OK.... I think, Laleo, that this was the general "rule" to follow at that time; if it was done in love, then it was RIGHT. No questions asked. I smelled marijuana more than once at the early ROAs. (Don't ask how I knew what it smelled like, ok?
:o-->)
But the level of love and acceptance in the atmosphere was very, very high. that by ITSELF was intoxicating.
I remember walking around with a huge grin
:D--> 
:D--> on my face for days after... not because I got laid (which I didn't, because my girl friend was not there and I believed in being faithful) - but I LOVED the feeling of acceptance that was so THICK you could NOT explain it...
Except to call it the Love of God, which passes understanding.
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satori001
Emotions are contagious, and they bypass our rational thinking. Yawning is contagious. So is panic, according to a recent study. Why not others?
If you could "fall in love" with an individual, why not with a group of individuals? A family, a tribe, a cult? Outside of families, and sports fans, it doesn't often happen in our culture, but there is no less logic in group infatuation as there is when we fall in love with an individual person.
Maybe it relates to some vestigial, instinctive behavior (a normally dormant operating system sub-routine) locked in our brains. Maybe our feelings aren't as selective as we think, or maybe there are additional criteria for triggering the "love mechanism."
I don't deny the love of God, but I doubt the acceptance you felt at TWI is the same thing that motivated Jesus to die on the cross. Ya know?
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waterbuffalo
Ohmygosh! I was there, at Ball State and had forgotten about that part of it. Maybe the shock of who was pronounced as the next president, erased the rest. I don't know. Thank you for bringing that up. Yes, that explains why I would think that about him, that he was respectable and unjustly persecuted by the press and religious leaders--and Mrs. vp was always there with him right by his side to back him up.
Please check your pt, too gray.
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sirguessalot
wow. i appreciate all the responses to this thread.
and my computer crashed and burned, so ive been offline for few days.
so i hope to get back to this subject soon.
a few things real quick tho, cuz some of the responses seem to not have understood (or read) what i wrote...(which seems understandable..lol)
to help put the magnitude of this spike into a different perspective: lets pretend that "stairway to heaven" has 1000 steps, and VP was born and raised to live and dance somewhere around the 100-300 step range, and with all sorts of disfunction and taboos and such going in those basic steps. then his fasting and suffering and seeking elevated certain cognitive and visual lines of his intelligence and awareness to the 500 to 600 range for a few years of his early pre-ministry life.
and so his spiritual spike was not a sustained peek into any sort of "ultimate realities" or actual holy Ground (that 1000th step and beyond), but rather, that one-time Porky's peak into waves of consciousness that were simply much higher than VPs own spiritual center of gravity (100-300 range). and this peak/peek was then translated, for perhaps throughout rest of his life and ministry, through the lense of where he had stabilized (midwestern germanic christian american farmboy). (btw - we all do the same sort of thing, in our own ways)
what i am suggesting, is those parts of what he saw was "real" and "genuine," but to reduce the vast (but navigable) complexity of such things into "it all comes down to (blank)" is to reduce the entire ongoing truth of the matter into a tiny box. which is simple, but not very helpful. in fact, it really just prolongs the suffering, it seems.
we all have many multiple lines of intelligence developing all at once. different lines may take the growth-lead at different times in our lives, and then even lose this lead to others later on. this is true for all of us, and VP and LCM.
thanks waterbuff. and the truth is, i'm both all and neither of those things you mentioned, and then some. if i was to label myself, today, i would say im a "Christian," mostly. The Bible is my favorite book of all, especially the "Book of Revelation." but names and titles and such are not digested so well around here (which i can understand), so i avoid them, as much as possible, really. even with myself.i guess what i try to do is recognize and honor the commonalities and differences of things like form and function, "light and sound," in all schools of thought, regardless of linguistic limitations and backgrounds, or place and time in history. i have seen that there are signatures and archetypes which seem to "float on top" of the waters, so to speak, and so reveal the shape of the waves...much how light glitters on the surface of the ocean. eventually, what is seen and heard when reading a thing is not just the old dead written translations on paper, but the evergrowing network of wisdom behind/beneath/above/beside them all.
in light of this, i guess i could write a looong list of religions i "belong" to. and besides, if Christ is king of kings and lords of lords, then there is no religion where Christ has not taught. and as it is written: "the son of man has nowhere to rest his head" ("son of man" not being just Jesus or Christ, but that which comes next after Adam, after being processed thru the feminine, which then would include Jesus, of course. and so, Jesus speaking of "the coming of the son of man" is something like a prediction of an evolutionary event, of which Jesus knew he was a pioneer...so, not super-people with superpowers)
...not to mention things about the majesty of Abraham and priesthood of Melchizadek, which i'll not go into detail here.
to simply begin to perceive of this deeper, universal level of spiritual understanding is a big part of The change we seek from Christ and in scripture. no, not that Jesus the man comes and kicks everyone's foot and makes peace in the world, but that Christ returns to earth (outer) from within (the gate to heaven). which alters (by expanding) our perceptions of cause and effect, among other things. someday, if/when this becomes commonplace, the prophecies will also be true on the outside, i suppose.
and so, i consider myself a follower of Christ, basically. and the Bible is my main book. i've practiced seeing and studying the complexities and simplicities and functional distinctions of the logos as generic divine form inherent in all things from the beginning. ya know...that schticke.
;)-->
not sure if that makes me a bona fide Christian or not, tho. depends whom you ask, i guess.
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sirguessalot
Yeah, Satori. I dont recall whose psychological model this is from (Lovinger?), but we naturally move from egoic "God as mouth" stage (self-centered love) to mythic membership stage (group centered love) to some sort of accomplishment-based love, to a universal open love. But these are all considered the "first tier". there stages both below them and above them (such as tribal love, which is pre-egoic, or non-dual love, which is post-post-universal).
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waterbuffalo
sirguess,
You sound like an educator or a psychologist and the multiple intelligences theory could explain some of it.
Thanks for the new insight and for going beneath the surface a bit. I think you make some valid points.
wb
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sirguessalot
No, not an educator, per se. Just a yackity signpost whose lost most all taboos.
:)-->
btw - Howard Gardener has done some of the best work on our multiple intelligences, if anyone is interested.
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Allan
Firstly, I believe that Greasespot Cafe is still and should continue to be a forum for ex-TWI'ers first and foremost.
Not those who happen to be ex-JW's, ex-LDS, ex-SDA, ex-etc..don't they have their own ex-forums ? or are their forums not as good ?!!
The problem is that they appear to be bringing their own in-grained beliefs and we have to troll through the illogicity of things like JESUS being GOD all over again.
I want 'innies' to see that 'sanity' lies beyond the walls of TWI not within !!
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waterbuffalo
Laleo,
Yes, I suppose I knew some of it was going on amongst us college students--so what was new?
But, not vp!!!!! That was unthinkable that he would (1) do it with the flock and (2) that so many adults in the group wouldn't have found out and spilled the beans. Afterall, Dr. Weingarner, Dr. what'sername--obgyn, the Strauhaul's, the Lynn's, and the list goes on and on. These sure all looked like respectable people to me who wouldn't have stood for something like that. So, yeah, I was deceived.
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waterbuffalo
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Too Gray Now
Allan, although your response was not aimed at me or anyone in particular - I would like to respond to something that surfaced in me from what you said.
I think others may be here because we have more in common with those "other" cultists than we may realize.
Lots of people have been a part of a controlling organization. Ex _______whatever.
In that sense, I would expect that we all rather smell alike - we all sort of got into a similar barrel of pickles.
We were in a barrel of pickles when someone slipped out and slappeda "THEM" label on our barrel covering up our label which said "US".
So we fought back by going to their barrel and slapped a label on theirs that said "THEM"
+odd brings up some excellent points, Hindu or otherwise... IMO - one is that we are integrated.
If we can't get past these exclusive labels (read: inclusive except for those who don't fit in our barrel) then we are destined to live on the flatland of step number 300 out of a 1,000 (to borrow from his example).
In or Out, Bond or Free, Male or Female, Jew or Gentile, - no difference is seen when we see all as 1.
Integration is a "higher" place where spirituality flows from oneness.
To tie this back in to the thread topic, was THIS kind of onness thinking part of VPWs spirituality??
I think he saw it, and said it, and taught it, but... sadly, did not have the discipline to do it. He spiked. But came back to the flatland of "THEM" and "US".
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excathedra
**
this is a great thread
i'm not in a position to decide whether he loved god. but i am in a position to say he did not love me as a human being - worthy of love and respect
good lord, as far as sex and college kids and that stuff, no problem, i get it.... but i do have a problem with him.... it's a whole different story....
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excathedra
general ps.
yes, i was screwed up, yes i was young, yes i was abused before, yes i idolized him, yes i didn't get the boundaries thing, yes yes yes
but i never headed a "ministry" and tried to use or hurt anyone
that's all i'm saying
and he definitely didn't succeed until i was spiked
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templelady
Allen Dear,
THe whole point of GSC is that having left TWI we GET THE FREEDOM to bring "in-grained beliefs" here. OUr belief systems and if part of your system is to believe in the TRinity so be it.
THe whole pont of GSC is that it can accommodate anyone!! Sanity, being subjective, isn't the issue--Freedom of Expression is.
As I read your post, MY impression is that you wish to impose your own view on the rest of us--maybe you don't really intend that --but once you decide what is or is not appropriate for others to believe you are on the slippery slope tWI all over again.
It took some of us a lot of seeking to find our spritual home. Mine is the LDS church but I went through the Salvation Army, Free Methodists, United Methodists, Nazarine, Congregational , Assemby of God, Lutheran, Presbyterian, TWI and a few others along the way to get here. SO you see it is possibole to EX-TWI and a host of Other EX's as well
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satori001
They can come here and take or leave whatever they like. They contribute NOTHING to this place. They can stay in TWI, and they can rot for all I care.
Was that insensitive? I just gotta renew my mind one of these days.
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CM
accordingly to the true-
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
And so it is that he must face the one true Master, King and Lord and face his demons and himself in the fire.
And somehow Christ made His way thru this little one man show also. There were and are men and women who got the oppurtunity to take a look at the scriptures. I pray that those who are continuing in his wake come to see and realize the downfall of that which wants to live and breath the freedom which it rightfully holds.
To see how this man turned to hate Jesus Christ, which is hating God. Without the Son you can't have the Father. For they are the same. And He is manifest in many ways as the scriptures declare.
1916-61 is all mrs. w could put in a book. Perhaps that's all that's worth knowing for history and 100 or a 1000 years from now. Cause it seemed to turn much worse from there. Even vpw rode this wave till his death.
And so a spike or a moment of true spiritual clarity could have been there imo.
My kid's kids will not know this person. But others are and will be around that will be similar. And here we are who lived thru it-though some didn't.
So for learnings sake the eyes can open up and see....
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laleo
ROA '74. There was a high level of love and acceptance. You're sure right about that. I was a teenager then, still young, not even working yet, and was forbidden to go. I went anyway, with a carload of college kids who were traveling through on their way west. I don't even remember who arranged that ride, or who paid my admission, or who gave me money for food, but I do remember I didn't have a dime to bring with me, but didn't feel the lack. And after four days there, I took home with me that feeling of utter relief in finally finding some goodness in the world. Then, eventually, I spent a lot of years, too many years, trying to recapture that feeling.
Sometimes late at night, if I'm out for a walk, and the night is clear, I'll watch as a random plane thunders across the sky, and wonder who the passengers are, if they are heading back home, or heading for a new life; whether they're visiting children, or lovers, or trying to put a marriage back together, or on a business trip, or just going some place new, or revisiting some place familiar. It's that moment of being en route, suspended in air, in forward motion, knowing, but not knowing, what's ahead. That's what The Way was for me. I don't know where the momentum came from, or how I got caught up in it all, or what role Wierwille played in it, whether the energy came from him, or if he was as swept away as we were. Love is such a subjective thing, Too Gray. It's hard to know where it comes from or why it leaves. But it did seem to be in New Knoxville, if only briefly. How it got there, why it left, and why some found solutions, and others heartache, I don't know.
Anyway, another time, another thread, we'll reminisce about this stuff. But, yeah, just wanted to let you know I know what you mean.
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satori001
Whatever it was, or wasn't, I'm sorry I missed it. Probably lucky, too.
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ex10
I think it's easy to dismiss VP Wierwille when I think of him as a total monster, who was a huckster and grifter from the start. Yeah, I was young and naive and stupid. I spent my youth involved in something that I now am not so proud of. Toss it off as being youthful naivete, no problem.
But if I think a little deeper, ummm. I knew the man, and my life was changed by his. In a real, human to human relationship, my life has been shaped by his. Hmmmmm. Not so easy to dismiss my past association. It gets a little more complicated for me personally. Maybe I make too much of small kindnesses. But then, maybe not.
I guess my point is, the easy way out is to think that he was an ogre who was only out for his own personal gain, right from the start. It costs me a little more to consider the alternative, as Sir Guess suggested.
Whatever, I can only speak for myself and my own experiences.
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laleo
Not sure what you mean, satori. It (whatever "it" is) must have meant something to you at one time, didn't it?
ex10: I only knew him from a distance. It wasn't his kindness that I saw or felt. In fact, I thought he was a little intimidating. Not sure what went wrong when, or if it was ever even "right." There was a community there, though, and it seemed genuine to me, at least at one time.
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ex10
Thanks, laleo, for saying that.
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satori001
ROA 74 may have been the zenith of that phenomenon. When I came along a few years later, it was a fragmented version. I saw it within fellowships, and individuals, but not everywhere.
Whatever "it" was, that tide was already receding, and a new tide rising. I remember "it" inspired much nostalgia in its wake. Even so, there was a new zeitgeist, an enthusiasm for all the wonderful improvements they saw around them. They were taking "it" to a new level. Or something.
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George Aar
I think you do. To quote Mr. Occam, the simplest explanation is usually the right one.
He was pathological, we were kids and easily impressed. The amalgam of those elements was a heady concoction which resulted in many of us attributing significance to WayWorld that it simply didn't merit. So says me, anyway...
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Belle
Vic was a huckster, a slimy snake oil salesman and a good one at that. Any good salesman knows that you have to alter your techniques to suit the person you are selling right away. Linda, he would never try to rape you because he knew he didn't have a snoball's chance in h to sell you on those lies. He knew if he melted your face he wouldn't be able to get whatever he wanted from you.
He wasn't 100% pure evil either. No one is. I'm sure he was kind when he felt like it and, more often, when it suited his purposes....whatever those purposes were. Even abusive parents and alcoholics have moments of clarity and lovingkindness. It doesn't make them good people or take away from the fact that they are horrible, abusive, evil people.
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