The question is why and how could someone actually see some truth and turn their backs on it in favor of their own selfish motives that hurt and enslaved and killed people.
He took what little he saw and made himself a God to others and despised the truth. Used it to advance his own lust, ignorance and selfishness.
Turned the truth of God into a lie. He flat out lied about major doctrinal issues and he knew it too.
He was exactly what Romans Chapter one says not to be.
Bury his bull**** crap and his effects.
The love of God, the Lord Himself, the one true God can kill it's hurt and make alive the truth in our hearts.
Yes Christ is God and he knew it. The dead are alive in Christ and he knew it. He lied straight out. He developed a system of error to support his doctrines and feed his own lousy belly.
And now to see it and learn from it as we do other things. To be wiser and to help others like rascal said.
Jesus Christ is God. He was fully man and fully God. I know this hard for wierwillists (both orthodox and reformed) to accept, but it is truth.
We can see time and time again where vpw changed words to fit his theology and with this issue it is no exception.
Some of the things I have learned for example is that the title "Son of Man" is considered a title of deity. Not the erroneous position that it means Jesus was the son of flesh, because even Wierwillists know that.
Rascal: There is NOTHING in Galatians about the "fruit of a man of the flesh" or the "fruit of a man of the spirit". It says the works of the flesh are....and the fruit of the spirit is....You like me have both flesh and spirit. It says to walk in the spirit and ye shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. So if you walk in the flesh you shall not fulfill the fruit of the spirit. You walk by the spirit 24/7??? Gosh, you must be JEEZUSS!
Why isn't it possible for VPW to be born again of God's spirit and still have sin in his flesh? I see works of the flesh in your posts: hatred, wrath. Is that all of who you are? I think not.
You CAN'T judge the man because he wasn't a man. Behind the smoke and mirrors, facade of sincerity, plagerised teachings, and on and on... the "man" behind the curtain was nothing more than a worthless SCAM.
We, who were dumb enough to fall for it all, must learn to not judge ourselves for taking part in the delusion known as VPW & TWI with all its foolishness (ie MOG, snow on gas pumps, Pikes Peak, WOW,VP's "German work ethic" , spitirual adultery vs physical adultery, the "Corps", CF&S, "the world's greatest layman", "second rate causes".)
You don't have to judge the man - his legacy says it all.
John I use the same measuring stick for myself that I apply to vpw or anybody else.
What is wrong with utilizing the standard given us.
I am sorry that vpw and the leaders of twi failed the litmus test in Galations....it showes us who and what they really were, and releases us from any responsibility to them as men of the spirit.
FIrst and formost I abhore TWI and what it stands for, for all the pain it caused, for all the suffering it engendered, for it's lack of even a modicum of repentance for it's actions-rather seeking to excuse, deflect and deny it's own accountability.
I agree with Rascal we are to avoid those who's "fruit" on this earthly plane is so obviously lacking. That is because being exposed to such "negatives" (to use TWI's own parlance against them) can destroy those around them.
When I thing of TWI I think of the parable of the Sower and the seeds.
Did the truth of God never reach VPW at all like the seeds snatched away by the birds?? I don't think so
Did VPWS have a testimony of the truth of the gospel but like the seeds in rocky ground when the trials come did it wither and dry? I Don't think so I am convinced that VPW knew the truth
Were the seeds in his life choked out by the brambles and thorns? This epitomizes VPW ni my mind --Money, power, adulation eventually choking out the truth he knew in favor of laws which could gain him more of the earthly things he delighted in.
Seeds on good ground--Not that was evidenced to those clutched in the web of TWI however, Who can say that not a few seeds did multiply? Many of us are proof that having survived TWI we did repent and turn again to the ways of GOD.
LAst but definitely not least is the fact that I nor any of us truly see as GOD sees. DId VPW repent and call out to GOD on his deathbed--NONE OF US KNOWS FOR SURE. Much less do we know what GOD"S final judgement will be that's why he is GOD and not us.
But for the sake of these forums we need to remember that this is a place of healing and rconciliation for all who were damaged by TWI and to disregard the damage by TWI etal, including VPW and LCM negates the purpose of it's existence
This thread is very interesting. I guess it's easy for those who didn't know VP, to paint him as a total villian.
For those of us who knew him, and were the recipients of his kindness, and his insight, it's way more complicated.
Yeah, he was horrible, and yeah, he was so kind and generous. It's just one of those paradoxes that I (and many others, maybe) will spend the rest of our lives trying to figure out. If we care enuff. :)-->
I am in no way a VP apologist, yet, he did some good that can't really be explained in light of all the bad crap he did. Sir guess tried to reason through it. Hats off to him!
"... I guess it's easy for those who didn't know VP, to paint him as a total villian."
I think that labeling and stuffing into a box is just the easiest thing to do, so that some people dont have to invest time thinking about such a paradox.
I did not know VPW. I dont think he was a 'total villian'. From what I have read here on GS about him, I see that he was a very complicated man. Obviously a villian to some, and a prophet to others.
A man of: "... his kindness, ... his insight, ... he was horrible, ... kind and generous"
I don't know how complicated he was, but I think he was more of a symbol than a person. Maybe because we were young, or maybe because we had our own "issues," we each seemed to make him into whatever it was we needed him to be for that moment. At least that's how it seems to me from reading years of posts about the man. He didn't match expectations, that much is certain.
Speaking for myself, I'm not comfortable attaching the label "evil" to him. He was more like an authoritarian daddy, loud and demanding one moment, protective and kind the next. Unpredictable. In hindsight, he was much more selfish and manipulative than I gave him credit for at the time, but I wonder if he knew it himself. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that he believed his own hype.
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CM
So what's your answer WTH.
I can judge spirituality just like you.
From a far greater view then being entrenched his
teachings and theories.
Rascal is right about VPW.
The question is why and how could someone actually see some truth and turn their backs on it in favor of their own selfish motives that hurt and enslaved and killed people.
He took what little he saw and made himself a God to others and despised the truth. Used it to advance his own lust, ignorance and selfishness.
Turned the truth of God into a lie. He flat out lied about major doctrinal issues and he knew it too.
He was exactly what Romans Chapter one says not to be.
Bury his bull**** crap and his effects.
The love of God, the Lord Himself, the one true God can kill it's hurt and make alive the truth in our hearts.
Yes Christ is God and he knew it. The dead are alive in Christ and he knew it. He lied straight out. He developed a system of error to support his doctrines and feed his own lousy belly.
And now to see it and learn from it as we do other things. To be wiser and to help others like rascal said.
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CM
sorry for the bit of a derail sirg but i need to take this a step further
Yes Christ is God, but not Jesus
Jesus the man lived the Christ without measure
He became one with the Christ-one with the Father
ONE WITH GOD
It was given to him, that made him equal with God
God raised Jesus the man from the dead.
Now Jesus Christ is Lord and King of Kings.
Do you believe that? Or is it just words in a book.
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oldiesman
Are you saying that Jesus the man wasn't God but Christ the man is God?
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CM
Without the Christ what would Jesus be?
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CM
and by the way I never said Christ was a man
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CM
don't say i said things that i didn't say please
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CM
another btw-
Jesus Christ...
who are the Kings He's King of?
who are the Lords He's Lord of?
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CM
and another thing He wasn't
King of Kings and
Lord of Lords untill
AFTER He was raised from the dead
NOW He is not later but Now
look it up yourself, it's in there..
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def59
CM
Jesus Christ is God. He was fully man and fully God. I know this hard for wierwillists (both orthodox and reformed) to accept, but it is truth.
We can see time and time again where vpw changed words to fit his theology and with this issue it is no exception.
Some of the things I have learned for example is that the title "Son of Man" is considered a title of deity. Not the erroneous position that it means Jesus was the son of flesh, because even Wierwillists know that.
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CM
"the Son of Man" is an interesting study Def...
i have been looking into it quite extensively..
it's a broad far reaching term that includes a lot...
not quite ready to put it into words on this forum yet
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Trefor Heywood
Considered by whom def?
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johniam
Rascal: There is NOTHING in Galatians about the "fruit of a man of the flesh" or the "fruit of a man of the spirit". It says the works of the flesh are....and the fruit of the spirit is....You like me have both flesh and spirit. It says to walk in the spirit and ye shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. So if you walk in the flesh you shall not fulfill the fruit of the spirit. You walk by the spirit 24/7??? Gosh, you must be JEEZUSS!
Why isn't it possible for VPW to be born again of God's spirit and still have sin in his flesh? I see works of the flesh in your posts: hatred, wrath. Is that all of who you are? I think not.
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Raf
I will not judge the man.
I will abhor his adultery.
I will abhor his abuse of women.
I will abhor the way he looked at the flock as a source of money and the fulfillment of his lust.
I will abhor his distortion of scripture for his personal financial gain.
I will abhor his paranoia and its manifestations.
But I will not judge the man.
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excathedra
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WeWereScammed
You CAN'T judge the man because he wasn't a man. Behind the smoke and mirrors, facade of sincerity, plagerised teachings, and on and on... the "man" behind the curtain was nothing more than a worthless SCAM.
We, who were dumb enough to fall for it all, must learn to not judge ourselves for taking part in the delusion known as VPW & TWI with all its foolishness (ie MOG, snow on gas pumps, Pikes Peak, WOW,VP's "German work ethic" , spitirual adultery vs physical adultery, the "Corps", CF&S, "the world's greatest layman", "second rate causes".)
You don't have to judge the man - his legacy says it all.
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rascal
John I use the same measuring stick for myself that I apply to vpw or anybody else.
What is wrong with utilizing the standard given us.
I am sorry that vpw and the leaders of twi failed the litmus test in Galations....it showes us who and what they really were, and releases us from any responsibility to them as men of the spirit.
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templelady
FIrst and formost I abhore TWI and what it stands for, for all the pain it caused, for all the suffering it engendered, for it's lack of even a modicum of repentance for it's actions-rather seeking to excuse, deflect and deny it's own accountability.
I agree with Rascal we are to avoid those who's "fruit" on this earthly plane is so obviously lacking. That is because being exposed to such "negatives" (to use TWI's own parlance against them) can destroy those around them.
When I thing of TWI I think of the parable of the Sower and the seeds.
Did the truth of God never reach VPW at all like the seeds snatched away by the birds?? I don't think so
Did VPWS have a testimony of the truth of the gospel but like the seeds in rocky ground when the trials come did it wither and dry? I Don't think so I am convinced that VPW knew the truth
Were the seeds in his life choked out by the brambles and thorns? This epitomizes VPW ni my mind --Money, power, adulation eventually choking out the truth he knew in favor of laws which could gain him more of the earthly things he delighted in.
Seeds on good ground--Not that was evidenced to those clutched in the web of TWI however, Who can say that not a few seeds did multiply? Many of us are proof that having survived TWI we did repent and turn again to the ways of GOD.
LAst but definitely not least is the fact that I nor any of us truly see as GOD sees. DId VPW repent and call out to GOD on his deathbed--NONE OF US KNOWS FOR SURE. Much less do we know what GOD"S final judgement will be that's why he is GOD and not us.
But for the sake of these forums we need to remember that this is a place of healing and rconciliation for all who were damaged by TWI and to disregard the damage by TWI etal, including VPW and LCM negates the purpose of it's existence
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ex10
This thread is very interesting. I guess it's easy for those who didn't know VP, to paint him as a total villian.
For those of us who knew him, and were the recipients of his kindness, and his insight, it's way more complicated.
Yeah, he was horrible, and yeah, he was so kind and generous. It's just one of those paradoxes that I (and many others, maybe) will spend the rest of our lives trying to figure out. If we care enuff.
:)-->
I am in no way a VP apologist, yet, he did some good that can't really be explained in light of all the bad crap he did. Sir guess tried to reason through it. Hats off to him!
Peace.
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Galen
ex10:
"... I guess it's easy for those who didn't know VP, to paint him as a total villian."
I think that labeling and stuffing into a box is just the easiest thing to do, so that some people dont have to invest time thinking about such a paradox.
I did not know VPW. I dont think he was a 'total villian'. From what I have read here on GS about him, I see that he was a very complicated man. Obviously a villian to some, and a prophet to others.
A man of: "... his kindness, ... his insight, ... he was horrible, ... kind and generous"
All in one.
:-)
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ex10
It occurs to me, that maybe the worst kind of evil that exists, started off good.
(Star Wars theme playing in the background)
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laleo
I don't know how complicated he was, but I think he was more of a symbol than a person. Maybe because we were young, or maybe because we had our own "issues," we each seemed to make him into whatever it was we needed him to be for that moment. At least that's how it seems to me from reading years of posts about the man. He didn't match expectations, that much is certain.
Speaking for myself, I'm not comfortable attaching the label "evil" to him. He was more like an authoritarian daddy, loud and demanding one moment, protective and kind the next. Unpredictable. In hindsight, he was much more selfish and manipulative than I gave him credit for at the time, but I wonder if he knew it himself. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that he believed his own hype.
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ex10
Yeah, laleo. But he knew some of the crap was wrong, else he wouldn't have hidden it.
:)-->
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laleo
By "crap" do you mean the image we had of him? Or do you mean his actions?
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ex10
I mean his actions.
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