I think part of the appeal is....that we *knew* stuff that the rest of the world didn`t..... we were too damn smart to be fooled like the rest of the poor schmucks that bought into alla that foolishness.
It makes us feel superior to be *in the know* ..I think a lot of twi was like that....we knew the word better than everyone.......were more spiritual than everyone else....had acess to the inner secrets...were better believers than the church goers.......did more for God then joe blow.......I think that it is about arrogance in it`d lowest common denominator.
I think this might be why it is so hard to come to grips with twi experience....we don`t want to admit that instead of being so superior to the rest of christiandom....we really were quite foolish.
i think it is along the lines of what rascal said--We *thought* we had the big inner secrets to just about anything, that fed the ego and gave us a false sense of superiority which was confused with 'spirituality'.
same crap with 4 crucified or any number of Way (off the mark) doctrines and insights of stupidity.
The only superiority exhibited was that we could swallow more horse**** than most people
Yep. It seems a "unique" belief characterizes a group. Something to "circle the wagons" around.
Sometimes that can be a good thing, sometimes not.
And you make another valid point, in my opinion, Rascal.
We don't really like being foolish. I don't think anybody does.
But why in the WORLD did ole doc snag in such a good one for us to park our wagons around? We would have been better off if he chose the belief that the world is flat.
Good grief- the man had a degree- discounting his nice paper doctorate, he did have a valid master's degree. Makes you wonder.
My other related thought on this is: why do some people find it so EASY to believe this?
The evidence that there was indeed a holocaust is staggering. You have SO much to explain away. The pictures, the tattoed numbers on the few survivors, the medical "experiments", the camps themselves.
The tons of HAIR. Had to come from somewhere..
The warehouse fulls of shoes. Somebody had to once wear them.
Sure, loads of other people died in the camps and in the war itself, but they were not as a class singled out for destruction. Of course, that does not make their deaths any less significant.
How is it that it is so easy to disregard all this and more, on the word of a jackass that can't account why there is no cyanide in almost seventy year old, weather beaten bricks?
I did research on this for one of my college papers.
Even the victims often discounted the reports, until it happened to them.
I think it is a far more comfortable belief, than its grizzly alternative.
It was generated by vee pee's conspiracy theory fetish and, I think, we all got caught up in his conspiracy theories. We started believing him and feeling like we were in on something the evil government wouldn't want us to know.
I'm surprised he didn't try to sell us the alien beings the government didn't want anyone to know they found.
A lot of my little friends in my NY neighborhood I grew up in were jewish. I remember the first time I went to one boy's house and met his mom with the black numbered tattoo on her forearm. I asked his mom where she got it, and she just said Auschwitz, and said nothing more.
As I grew up I was friends with people in H.S. who's parents or grandparents went in, living in NYC I met several older holocaust survivors. My professor told me what her parents had told her about being in the camps and how they survived Krystalnacht before being caught later.
One lady I worked with at my law firm in NYC, was from Holland and had been in the Bergen-Belsen camp from age 6 months to 4. I found this out at lunch one day. Since she was Jewish and from Holland, I asked if any of her family had been in the Holocaust. That's when she told me where she had spent the first 4 years of her life. I was horrified - that was the famous one with the infamous female guard Ilse Koch, who for fun, siced the german shepards on the little kids and thought it funny when they were mauled to death and eaten.
She remembered very little about it (or didn't want to). They had been rounded up, her Father sent to Auschwitz, mother to Treblinka. He died, mom survived. She had been taken with her 18 months old brother and some other kids - about 14 of them - and put on a dump truck. The truck pulled into Bergen-Belson and dumped them in the mud in the middle of the night in a rain storm. Her 18 mos. old brother watched over her and did his best to protect her during this whole time. I was horrified, I asked her, how did you get over this? She said, you must understand, that's all I knew - I thought it was normal.
When she was liberated at 4 years old, she spent a year in the hospital recuperating - at 4, she only weighed as much as a one year old. She celebrated her first birthday at home with family at age 5.
A Russian woman and another woman took the kids into the barracks, where they risked their lives and kept all of these kids alive. They kept them quiet all day so as not to annoy the guards. For some reason, those guards were just too ashamed to go slaughter the kids. She told me her family and the other survivors had made great efforts since the end of WWII to locate these two women over the years.
About two years later, when I had moved back to Ohio, there was a huge article on them with pictures as adults - there was Stella smiling in front. They had found one of the women and flown to Europe to honor her. The lady received a hero of Israel, Righteous Gentile award. Readers Digest several months later did an article on it.
The woman who kept them alive had already lost her own 14 year old son in Auschwitz and was damned if she was going to let these little ones die.
There are too many survivors. Their stories must be kept alive and documented. These camps were the devil's playground - literally. For someone to dismiss them or prove it didn't happen is just being willfully ignorant.
It was part of an entire package of right-wing conspiracy theories regarding the Jews being behind the scenes manipulators of finances and world economies. A bunch of racist hype that was (probably still is) popular back in the mid-70's. Billy Graham even bought into some of it for a while-- he was recorded having a conversation with Richard Nixon regarding such issues of Jewish control, for which he eventually apologized. I bought several of those books and it got me on a mailing list for the Spotlight-- a notorious racist rag which was quite embarassing to have delivered to my door-- especially when I lived in a racially mixed community in Chicago.
Pure Evil.. and I think the closest second to that is to deny it ever happened. Or to say that it wasn't as bad as all that. Or.. on and on.
It may be a "bitter pill to swallow"- but I think people are far better off knowing what happened.
I remember "good" ole loy trying to "protect the hearts of OUR young people" in these regards. Sure doing them a favor, I'm sure. If it hasn't already, some day the truth will hit them in the face.
That's not protection- that's just setting them up for ridicule, embarrasment and shame.
Nothing wrong with getting sick about something, if it is appropriate.
I think part of it was a desire to be contraversial so it got you noticed.
But LCM revelled in it - I remember when the European WOW Festival in Owens Park Manchester UK was being picketed after the news of what TWI thought got out.
He was enjoying himself with phrases such as:
How can they call us anti-semitic when there aren't any semites to be anti?
It was a two fingers up approach, nothing to do with protecting young people.
I heard Martindale make that stupid comment about anti-Semitism as well.
He and Wierwille based their opinions of the non-Jewishness of the Jews on Koestler, who never said that ALL Jews were descended from the Khazars, or that NO descendents of the 12 tribes made up modern Jewry.
"Well, lots of other people died in the camps. Jehovah's witnesses, Homosexuals, etc., etc."
That's nice. But so what?
How in God's name does that justify murdering ANYBODY, no less targeting a specific group for utter destruction?
I don't get it. Even in my Vey days, I had doubts about what Loy and Vic said about the holocaust. I think I said "uh huh" and just "held it in abeyance". Should have run like hell.
I think people can't fathom the enormity of it.
Maybe that's one reason the deniers attack the credible, first hand witnesses of the horror.
Part of the 'appeal' was certainly feeling like you had 'secret 'information. The way thrived on tickling us with these sensational ideas.
Incredibly, that was part of the draw when I considered going into the way corps. That's where you'd REALLY find out what's going on. If you were just a 'regular' believer, you couldn't 'handle' the deeper truths. I recall often being told I 'didn't need to know', when I tried to find out what they were talking about, especially around '76 when the way 'saved' the country from the illumanati, communist takeover, and one world government.
There was always that air of 'we know more than you, due to our deeper spirituality, and greater committment.
It was part of the carrot dangled before us to desire to take the next step in 'service'.
if the implication that the holocaust was a lie, then we certainly wanted to know the truth.
It was one reason why the way appealed to the impressionable young. I can't imagine any mature person working and raising a family buying into it.
It is the same for those who are heck bent on exploring the gnostic gospels.
The rationale is similar, trying to find hidden truth in "lost" books. Surely, because they were "hidden" they must have the real truth.
Just as we have eyewitness accounts of the camps from the soldiers, survivors and liberators, we have plenty of documentation on how we got the Bible and why some books made it and others didn't.
But why bother with the facts when there's a juicy conspiracy to exploit.
But why bother with the facts when there's a juicy conspiracy to exploit.
Yep. Why bother..
Just another juicy tidbit for us to "circle the wagons" around.
In a way, as far as the group is concerned, the bizarre belief is irrelevant. What IS relevant is that you band together and defend it to the death, supporting those who were gracious enough to give you a few crumbs of "truth"..
Makes me wonder why ole vic would choose such rubbish for us to tie our wagons to. Lots of better causes, like "the earth is flat" or "they never really went to the moon"- some have found these pretty effective.
Here is a link to some science I would call the "real deal". Enjoy if you know chemistry or physics.. it really blows the jackasses "science" out of the water.
Something like... "The Jews of today are no more Jews than the Apachee Indians".
This was the former President of TWI, folks. And this was stated in recent years by him.
Just so some readers may be clear.... it was commonly implied and even stated from time to time in TWI...that the Holocaust was greatly exagerrated if it happened at all. According to the way I heard it, this holocaust myth was promulgated for the purpose of the Jews of today gaining more sympathy and power in modern society.
In fact the first time I went to HQ in 1974 there was a small bookstore in the back where I saw my first copy of a little pamphlet free for the taking called "Myth of the Six Million." I picked it up, read it and was fascinated by it and believed it. I would see it many other times through the years in TWI at Advanced Classes and other such places.
Unbelievable isn't it! Shameful! May we NEVER forget some of the things Sunesis posted.
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Catcup
Absolutely.
Catcup
This was exactly my experience. I sat in the same meetings and heard Martindale make the same exclamation: That the Jews of today are no more Jews than the Apache Indians. And yes, the Holocaust wa
Catcup
A slippery slope indeed, Tref.
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rascal
I think part of the appeal is....that we *knew* stuff that the rest of the world didn`t..... we were too damn smart to be fooled like the rest of the poor schmucks that bought into alla that foolishness.
It makes us feel superior to be *in the know* ..I think a lot of twi was like that....we knew the word better than everyone.......were more spiritual than everyone else....had acess to the inner secrets...were better believers than the church goers.......did more for God then joe blow.......I think that it is about arrogance in it`d lowest common denominator.
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rascal
I think this might be why it is so hard to come to grips with twi experience....we don`t want to admit that instead of being so superior to the rest of christiandom....we really were quite foolish.
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mstar1
i think it is along the lines of what rascal said--We *thought* we had the big inner secrets to just about anything, that fed the ego and gave us a false sense of superiority which was confused with 'spirituality'.
same crap with 4 crucified or any number of Way (off the mark) doctrines and insights of stupidity.
The only superiority exhibited was that we could swallow more horse**** than most people
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Ham
Yep. It seems a "unique" belief characterizes a group. Something to "circle the wagons" around.
Sometimes that can be a good thing, sometimes not.
And you make another valid point, in my opinion, Rascal.
We don't really like being foolish. I don't think anybody does.
But why in the WORLD did ole doc snag in such a good one for us to park our wagons around? We would have been better off if he chose the belief that the world is flat.
Good grief- the man had a degree- discounting his nice paper doctorate, he did have a valid master's degree. Makes you wonder.
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Ham
My other related thought on this is: why do some people find it so EASY to believe this?
The evidence that there was indeed a holocaust is staggering. You have SO much to explain away. The pictures, the tattoed numbers on the few survivors, the medical "experiments", the camps themselves.
The tons of HAIR. Had to come from somewhere..
The warehouse fulls of shoes. Somebody had to once wear them.
Sure, loads of other people died in the camps and in the war itself, but they were not as a class singled out for destruction. Of course, that does not make their deaths any less significant.
How is it that it is so easy to disregard all this and more, on the word of a jackass that can't account why there is no cyanide in almost seventy year old, weather beaten bricks?
I did research on this for one of my college papers.
Even the victims often discounted the reports, until it happened to them.
I think it is a far more comfortable belief, than its grizzly alternative.
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Belle
It was generated by vee pee's conspiracy theory fetish and, I think, we all got caught up in his conspiracy theories. We started believing him and feeling like we were in on something the evil government wouldn't want us to know.
I'm surprised he didn't try to sell us the alien beings the government didn't want anyone to know they found.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
my uncle went to war in germany and stayed there he married a check.woman who was in the camps
when i visited them in ger. she had stories to tell and you had to believe her
especially when you looked at the number tattoed on her wrist
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Ham
Probably no way he could reconcile THAT with his theology..
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Sunesis
A lot of my little friends in my NY neighborhood I grew up in were jewish. I remember the first time I went to one boy's house and met his mom with the black numbered tattoo on her forearm. I asked his mom where she got it, and she just said Auschwitz, and said nothing more.
As I grew up I was friends with people in H.S. who's parents or grandparents went in, living in NYC I met several older holocaust survivors. My professor told me what her parents had told her about being in the camps and how they survived Krystalnacht before being caught later.
One lady I worked with at my law firm in NYC, was from Holland and had been in the Bergen-Belsen camp from age 6 months to 4. I found this out at lunch one day. Since she was Jewish and from Holland, I asked if any of her family had been in the Holocaust. That's when she told me where she had spent the first 4 years of her life. I was horrified - that was the famous one with the infamous female guard Ilse Koch, who for fun, siced the german shepards on the little kids and thought it funny when they were mauled to death and eaten.
She remembered very little about it (or didn't want to). They had been rounded up, her Father sent to Auschwitz, mother to Treblinka. He died, mom survived. She had been taken with her 18 months old brother and some other kids - about 14 of them - and put on a dump truck. The truck pulled into Bergen-Belson and dumped them in the mud in the middle of the night in a rain storm. Her 18 mos. old brother watched over her and did his best to protect her during this whole time. I was horrified, I asked her, how did you get over this? She said, you must understand, that's all I knew - I thought it was normal.
When she was liberated at 4 years old, she spent a year in the hospital recuperating - at 4, she only weighed as much as a one year old. She celebrated her first birthday at home with family at age 5.
A Russian woman and another woman took the kids into the barracks, where they risked their lives and kept all of these kids alive. They kept them quiet all day so as not to annoy the guards. For some reason, those guards were just too ashamed to go slaughter the kids. She told me her family and the other survivors had made great efforts since the end of WWII to locate these two women over the years.
About two years later, when I had moved back to Ohio, there was a huge article on them with pictures as adults - there was Stella smiling in front. They had found one of the women and flown to Europe to honor her. The lady received a hero of Israel, Righteous Gentile award. Readers Digest several months later did an article on it.
The woman who kept them alive had already lost her own 14 year old son in Auschwitz and was damned if she was going to let these little ones die.
There are too many survivors. Their stories must be kept alive and documented. These camps were the devil's playground - literally. For someone to dismiss them or prove it didn't happen is just being willfully ignorant.
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Zshot
While I was stationed in Germany, I visited the Dachou concentration camp.
It is hard to describe the feelings that I had. The closest words would be extreme sorrow.
I came to believe that there was such a thing as pure evil and I stood where it once thrived.
The things that happened at those camps must not ever happen again.
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Catcup
It was part of an entire package of right-wing conspiracy theories regarding the Jews being behind the scenes manipulators of finances and world economies. A bunch of racist hype that was (probably still is) popular back in the mid-70's. Billy Graham even bought into some of it for a while-- he was recorded having a conversation with Richard Nixon regarding such issues of Jewish control, for which he eventually apologized. I bought several of those books and it got me on a mailing list for the Spotlight-- a notorious racist rag which was quite embarassing to have delivered to my door-- especially when I lived in a racially mixed community in Chicago.
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Ham
Pure Evil.. and I think the closest second to that is to deny it ever happened. Or to say that it wasn't as bad as all that. Or.. on and on.
It may be a "bitter pill to swallow"- but I think people are far better off knowing what happened.
I remember "good" ole loy trying to "protect the hearts of OUR young people" in these regards. Sure doing them a favor, I'm sure. If it hasn't already, some day the truth will hit them in the face.
That's not protection- that's just setting them up for ridicule, embarrasment and shame.
Nothing wrong with getting sick about something, if it is appropriate.
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Trefor Heywood
I think part of it was a desire to be contraversial so it got you noticed.
But LCM revelled in it - I remember when the European WOW Festival in Owens Park Manchester UK was being picketed after the news of what TWI thought got out.
He was enjoying himself with phrases such as:
How can they call us anti-semitic when there aren't any semites to be anti?
It was a two fingers up approach, nothing to do with protecting young people.
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Oakspear
I heard Martindale make that stupid comment about anti-Semitism as well.
He and Wierwille based their opinions of the non-Jewishness of the Jews on Koestler, who never said that ALL Jews were descended from the Khazars, or that NO descendents of the 12 tribes made up modern Jewry.
Moron
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Trefor Heywood
And also as Bedouin Arabs were Semites and they were not anti them, they considered this argument reinforced.
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Ham
Yep. I heard all of those arguments, and more.
"Well, they REALLY weren't Jews to begin with"
Of course that was genetically disproven.
"Well, lots of other people died in the camps. Jehovah's witnesses, Homosexuals, etc., etc."
That's nice. But so what?
How in God's name does that justify murdering ANYBODY, no less targeting a specific group for utter destruction?
I don't get it. Even in my Vey days, I had doubts about what Loy and Vic said about the holocaust. I think I said "uh huh" and just "held it in abeyance". Should have run like hell.
I think people can't fathom the enormity of it.
Maybe that's one reason the deniers attack the credible, first hand witnesses of the horror.
It's hard to ignore somebody's personal story.
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hiway29
Part of the 'appeal' was certainly feeling like you had 'secret 'information. The way thrived on tickling us with these sensational ideas.
Incredibly, that was part of the draw when I considered going into the way corps. That's where you'd REALLY find out what's going on. If you were just a 'regular' believer, you couldn't 'handle' the deeper truths. I recall often being told I 'didn't need to know', when I tried to find out what they were talking about, especially around '76 when the way 'saved' the country from the illumanati, communist takeover, and one world government.
There was always that air of 'we know more than you, due to our deeper spirituality, and greater committment.
It was part of the carrot dangled before us to desire to take the next step in 'service'.
if the implication that the holocaust was a lie, then we certainly wanted to know the truth.
It was one reason why the way appealed to the impressionable young. I can't imagine any mature person working and raising a family buying into it.
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def59
It is the same for those who are heck bent on exploring the gnostic gospels.
The rationale is similar, trying to find hidden truth in "lost" books. Surely, because they were "hidden" they must have the real truth.
Just as we have eyewitness accounts of the camps from the soldiers, survivors and liberators, we have plenty of documentation on how we got the Bible and why some books made it and others didn't.
But why bother with the facts when there's a juicy conspiracy to exploit.
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Ham
Yep. Why bother..
Just another juicy tidbit for us to "circle the wagons" around.
In a way, as far as the group is concerned, the bizarre belief is irrelevant. What IS relevant is that you band together and defend it to the death, supporting those who were gracious enough to give you a few crumbs of "truth"..
Makes me wonder why ole vic would choose such rubbish for us to tie our wagons to. Lots of better causes, like "the earth is flat" or "they never really went to the moon"- some have found these pretty effective.
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Ham
But I think I have the anwer to that. It inspires HATE.
No longer are "they" watching YOU, "they" are watching "them".
You might say it has "cult appeal".
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
zshot
you are right.. they must never happen again...and i will add.. must never be forgotten
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Ham
Here is a link to some science I would call the "real deal". Enjoy if you know chemistry or physics.. it really blows the jackasses "science" out of the water.
http://www.remember.org/History.root.rev.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-...enial/blue.html
I think about the only reply from the deniers to most of this is "wah, wah, wah, you're not playing fair.."
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igotout
What's that LCM used to say publicly
Something like... "The Jews of today are no more Jews than the Apachee Indians".
This was the former President of TWI, folks. And this was stated in recent years by him.
Just so some readers may be clear.... it was commonly implied and even stated from time to time in TWI...that the Holocaust was greatly exagerrated if it happened at all. According to the way I heard it, this holocaust myth was promulgated for the purpose of the Jews of today gaining more sympathy and power in modern society.
In fact the first time I went to HQ in 1974 there was a small bookstore in the back where I saw my first copy of a little pamphlet free for the taking called "Myth of the Six Million." I picked it up, read it and was fascinated by it and believed it. I would see it many other times through the years in TWI at Advanced Classes and other such places.
Unbelievable isn't it! Shameful! May we NEVER forget some of the things Sunesis posted.
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Catcup
Absolutely.
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