Even though Craig had been president for awile now that VP was out of the picture, I think all Craig saw was people leaving after other ministries. Craig did what he had seen done years before which was get rid of the origional. Just like the books disappeared did so did BG. St*v* said he was supposed to speak at the rock but Craig canned it.
WhiteDove, wouldn't it have been great had Craig invited B.G. Leonard to speak to all of us, welcomed him as a brother in Christ, and told us that he was instrumental in VP's research?
Just a little more love, wisdom and respect here and there, and poof, things may have been so different.
Oldiesman, I first have to say I sincerely hope that the leg is on the mend nicely.
Oenophile, thanks, it is coming along great.
quote:
I believe had I known back then that the good doctor had taken other's works as his own, I would not have swallowed hook, line and sinker all of what he taught. That element of distrust, at least, would have overshadowed everything that he taught. Which, incidentlly, was my reaction to his words once I found out about his works!
I get what you mean, but perhaps it was a good thing for some of us that we didn't know. I've been saying for some time, that folks were turn off the Word because of Wierwille's sins and sins of people. It's a biblical truth that stumblingblocks happen, and it just makes sense and here's more evidence.
In the final analysis, guess it all comes down to whether one believes twi taught the truth or not, in its original form or not. I still think in many areas it did communicate truth, notwithstanding lifting the information from other sources. I'm still glad it was communicated to me, and have a great appreciation of the original sources as well.
I think God was working to help people there, despite the secret sins we didn't know about.
I think God doesn't stop moving because of people's sins.
Oldiesman, I first have to say I sincerely hope that the leg is on the mend nicely.
Oenophile, thanks, it is coming along great.
quote:
I believe had I known back then that the good doctor had taken other's works as his own, I would not have swallowed hook, line and sinker all of what he taught. That element of distrust, at least, would have overshadowed everything that he taught. Which, incidentlly, was my reaction to his words once I found out about his works!
I get what you mean, but perhaps it was a good thing for some of us that we didn't know.
Yes, it was better that he be allowed to deceive us!!!!
quote:
I've been saying for some time, that folks were turn off the Word because of Wierwille's sins and sins of people.
The lesson here is that the man representing God should NOT SIN,
not that we should ignore his sins.
quote:
It's a biblical truth that stumblingblocks happen, and it just makes sense and here's more evidence.
There's a difference between struggling against temptation,
and deliberately making occasion for it.
Deliberately choosing to hide your sources and claiming to originate the work,
thus putting forth that yourself was some great one,
is a decision, which you then put into action all by yourself.
quote:
In the final analysis, guess it all comes down to whether one believes twi taught the truth or not, in its original form or not.
No, that is a separate issue.
"Truth from the pen of a plagiarist is still truth.
But plagiarism matters. Plagiarism may not reflect on the accuracy of the information
that's stolen, but it does reflect on the character of the plagiarist. The plagiarist is
a liar, a thief, an arrogant, lazy, self-important person who dismisses the hard work
of other people and disrespects the intelligence of his readers
(by presuming the readers will never learn if the infraction.)"
I still think in many areas it did communicate truth, notwithstanding lifting the information from other sources. I'm still glad it was communicated to me, and have a great appreciation of the original sources as well.
Even if it was all 100% factually correct, the plagiarism was still wrong.
quote:
I think God was working to help people there, despite the secret sins we didn't know about.
God is ALWAYS working to help people. This is not a free pass to sin.
quote:
I think God doesn't stop moving because of people's sins.
:)-->
However, should we refrain from sinning, or is it equally "right" to sin as much as we
feel like, knowing God will keep moving even if we deceive the brethren and do other
things to them that are sins and criminal actions?
Yes "truth is still truth" but now it's tainted because it's being delivered for a different purpose... not to "save souls" but to steal souls (and the money and sexual gratification that come with them)
Good point.. maybe that's why it failed to produce the results that perhaps it should have had..
Maybe once the old vicster slapped his greasy name on it, somehow it all changed..
Poisoned food is still food, I guess..
But it makes more and more sense to me all the time.
With his advanced class, the product seemed to "work"- but taking on spiritualism, devil worship, other "preversions", to me, is kind of like preaching to the choir. Easy as shooting fish in a barrel.
Practically, though, he puts a guy in charge of CHILDREN'S ACTIVITIES- read the child abuse thread..said guy beats kids with a closed fist? SADISTIC, angry SOB- "possessed" by vics definition. You tell me. "his" COPY of the product failed to function, in his own back yard.
Somehow, in the copy process, I think a lot of true intent and any power was lost, assuming it was there to begin with.
Perhaps some of us would have done these things had we known but we would have done them with our eyes open rather than being deceived into thinking that VPW was some modern day Apostle Paul and that twi was the holy of holies in the sight of God. Heck, some of us might have had lives, careers, been able to follow our passions and gifts, lived in our own homes instead of acquiesing to group-think.
Yes "truth is still truth" but now it's tainted because it's being delivered for a different purpose... not to "save souls" but to steal souls (and the money and sexual gratification that come with them)
Yes, it was better that he be allowed to deceive us!!!!
You and I were deceived about Wierwille's character, but in the totality of things, so what?
I didn't get involved with twi because of Wierwille's character, although I do strongly wish now that his character were more biblical with much less baggage.
I get what you mean, but perhaps it was a good thing for some of us that we didn't know.
and
quote:
You and I were deceived about Wierwille's character, but in the totality of things, so what?
I didn't get involved with twi because of Wierwille's character, although I do strongly wish now that his character were more biblical with much less baggage.
I.e., first he says that perhaps it is a good thing, then he says that he wishes that his character was more biblical with much less baggage.
--> --> --> -->
It's plain here, I think, that Oldies has gotten to the point that he just doesn't care about anything or anyone here in comparison with VPW's reputation and standing. Just so long as VPW's rep get the special 'whitewash' treatment due to what Oldies learned in PFAL, nothing, or nobody (especially in regards what *abuse* they went thru via VPW) else matters. ... Not really, anyway.
And that's the 'god' that brings deliverence and the 'more abundant life'??
I trow not! :P-->
P.S., Skyrider's latest post just proves my point!
I didn't get involved with twi because of Wierwille's character, although I do strongly wish now that his character were more biblical with much less baggage.
...."more biblical with much less baggage"
Talk about a euphemism !!!
Oldies, you misdirect.....you deliberately "soften" veepee's corrupt and immoral behavior.
The man was an adulterous, sleazy, plagerist, and con-man who found "a way" to stay holed up on his farm.....scamming the youth. Thereby he was self-serving desires with his harley-ridin, drambuie-drinking, kool-smoking, deer-hunting, womanizing habits and found a kentucky sidekick who'd lie and cover for his actions.
So.....he reread a few bible verses. Narcissism is an apt portrayal of "his baggage."
You're sick, OM. I truly feel sorry for you and anyone who has to live and interact with you.
Friend Belle, if you think that the folks are sick who do not preoccupy themselves with the sins of Wierwille, then I suppose there are many many sick folks in the world.
The man was an adulterous, sleazy, plagerist, and con-man who found "a way" to stay holed up on his farm.....scamming the youth. Thereby he was self-serving desires with his harley-ridin, drambuie-drinking, kool-smoking, deer-hunting, womanizing habits and found a kentucky sidekick who'd lie and cover for his actions.
Aww Skyrider, please don't mince words, why not tell us what you REALLY think?
At this time, I think it's important to mention that unbeknownst to me, my computer has been cleaned of all my "smileys" and I need to post without them until further notice.
Friend Belle, if you think that the folks are sick who do not preoccupy themselves with the sins of Wierwille, then I suppose there are many many sick folks in the world.
I think folks are sick who believe the ends justifies the means when lots of lives were ruined and actually lost. I think folks who blame the victim are sick. I think folks who are as cold, apathetic and just plain think like you are sick. :)--> It's a lot more than that actually, I just really feel sorry for you, Man.
Def, I believe Raf was commenting on this part of Oldiesman's post above yours:
quote:
Had B.G. Leonard taken me aside 30 years ago and said "Wierwille stole from me", I might have encouraged him to take a chill pill and be thankful that the Word of God is being taught to so many folks and he was a part of that and to thank God we all knew the truth and teaching a lot of the same things.
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WordWolf
It was part of the whole package. We were sold the whole package. That package was of a religious organization that was unique in that its authority and teaching were solely from the Bible, and wh
oldiesman
Just a little more love, wisdom and respect here and there, and poof, things may have been so different.
Ahh, wishful thinking I guess.
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oldiesman
In the final analysis, guess it all comes down to whether one believes twi taught the truth or not, in its original form or not. I still think in many areas it did communicate truth, notwithstanding lifting the information from other sources. I'm still glad it was communicated to me, and have a great appreciation of the original sources as well.
I think God was working to help people there, despite the secret sins we didn't know about.
I think God doesn't stop moving because of people's sins.
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WordWolf
Yes, it was better that he be allowed to deceive us!!!!
The lesson here is that the man representing God should NOT SIN,
not that we should ignore his sins.
There's a difference between struggling against temptation,
and deliberately making occasion for it.
Deliberately choosing to hide your sources and claiming to originate the work,
thus putting forth that yourself was some great one,
is a decision, which you then put into action all by yourself.
No, that is a separate issue.
"Truth from the pen of a plagiarist is still truth.
But plagiarism matters. Plagiarism may not reflect on the accuracy of the information
that's stolen, but it does reflect on the character of the plagiarist. The plagiarist is
a liar, a thief, an arrogant, lazy, self-important person who dismisses the hard work
of other people and disrespects the intelligence of his readers
(by presuming the readers will never learn if the infraction.)"
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/editorial/pl...m-wierwille.htm
Even if it was all 100% factually correct, the plagiarism was still wrong.
God is ALWAYS working to help people. This is not a free pass to sin.
However, should we refrain from sinning, or is it equally "right" to sin as much as we
feel like, knowing God will keep moving even if we deceive the brethren and do other
things to them that are sins and criminal actions?
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Tom Strange
OM you give me such tired head....
Yes "truth is still truth" but now it's tainted because it's being delivered for a different purpose... not to "save souls" but to steal souls (and the money and sexual gratification that come with them)
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Ham
Good point.. maybe that's why it failed to produce the results that perhaps it should have had..
Maybe once the old vicster slapped his greasy name on it, somehow it all changed..
Poisoned food is still food, I guess..
But it makes more and more sense to me all the time.
With his advanced class, the product seemed to "work"- but taking on spiritualism, devil worship, other "preversions", to me, is kind of like preaching to the choir. Easy as shooting fish in a barrel.
Practically, though, he puts a guy in charge of CHILDREN'S ACTIVITIES- read the child abuse thread..said guy beats kids with a closed fist? SADISTIC, angry SOB- "possessed" by vics definition. You tell me. "his" COPY of the product failed to function, in his own back yard.
Somehow, in the copy process, I think a lot of true intent and any power was lost, assuming it was there to begin with.
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Belle
The Strange one said:
AMEN!!!!
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Belle
Another Strange quote:
AND AGAIN I SAY, "AMEN!!!!"
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oldiesman
I didn't get involved with twi because of Wierwille's character, although I do strongly wish now that his character were more biblical with much less baggage.
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skyrider
So what?????
Tell that to my corps sisters who were RAPED when he lured them onto his motorcoach.
oldiesman, you know not whereof you speak!
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GarthP2000
Contradiction City here:
and
I.e., first he says that perhaps it is a good thing, then he says that he wishes that his character was more biblical with much less baggage.
It's plain here, I think, that Oldies has gotten to the point that he just doesn't care about anything or anyone here in comparison with VPW's reputation and standing. Just so long as VPW's rep get the special 'whitewash' treatment due to what Oldies learned in PFAL, nothing, or nobody (especially in regards what *abuse* they went thru via VPW) else matters. ... Not really, anyway.
And that's the 'god' that brings deliverence and the 'more abundant life'??
I trow not!
:P-->
P.S., Skyrider's latest post just proves my point!
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oldiesman
Good.
So what?
Does that contradict?
Oh well.
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Belle
You're sick, OM. I truly feel sorry for you and anyone who has to live and interact with you.
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skyrider
And, one more thing.....
...."more biblical with much less baggage"
Talk about a euphemism !!!
Oldies, you misdirect.....you deliberately "soften" veepee's corrupt and immoral behavior.
The man was an adulterous, sleazy, plagerist, and con-man who found "a way" to stay holed up on his farm.....scamming the youth. Thereby he was self-serving desires with his harley-ridin, drambuie-drinking, kool-smoking, deer-hunting, womanizing habits and found a kentucky sidekick who'd lie and cover for his actions.
So.....he reread a few bible verses. Narcissism is an apt portrayal of "his baggage."
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oldiesman
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oldiesman
Um, you have something against Harleys?
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oldiesman
At this time, I think it's important to mention that unbeknownst to me, my computer has been cleaned of all my "smileys" and I need to post without them until further notice.
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Belle
I think folks are sick who believe the ends justifies the means when lots of lives were ruined and actually lost. I think folks who blame the victim are sick. I think folks who are as cold, apathetic and just plain think like you are sick.
:)--> It's a lot more than that actually, I just really feel sorry for you, Man.
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oldiesman
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GarthP2000
..... like I said, the man just doesn't care.
Heh! And he wants to convince us of *his* 'god'??
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oldiesman
Yeah, I don't think my God preoccupies Himself with the 30-year-old sins of Victor Paul Wierwille...
Does Yours?
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Raf
My God preoccupies Himself neither with the sins of VPW nor the pathetic and disingenuous attempts to whitewash those sins.
"So what?" indeed.
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oldiesman
Raffy, I think you may be treading on False Accusation territory.
What is your definition of "whitewashing sins"??
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def59
Raf
Were you talking to me?
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Belle
Def, I believe Raf was commenting on this part of Oldiesman's post above yours:
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