There were no scandals for years, because the abuses and evil were effectively covered up for so long. Scandal take place when thing are revealed - not necessarily while they are happening.
Given TWI's history, the absence of scandal today means nothing at all.
How do you measure "better?" Where on the yardstick does twi go from bad to good? And isn't it relative to where you live, how much you are involved etc?
I know that in one area someone I know is trying to make things better. He recognizes that there have been problems but limits his understanding of how deep it goes and how bad it was/is to his own experiences. So where he lives things are better...at least for him they seem to be. I only know his perspective.
What of other areas and with other leaders? What of the systemic problems that were the root cause of the first major problem and the next and the next...? Have those things been changed? Have they been changed publically? Is still teaching that college loans are a bad idea a good thing for their kids? Have they ever said anything about the "genuine spiritual suspicion" teaching being wrong? Do they acknowledge that the M&A policy was a policy and has changed? Have they admitted that getting out of debt was a policy from the seasoned wayfer on up and publically said that policy was wrong? Have they apologized to all the people they hurt? Have they even publically acknowledged that they hurt many people at least among thier rank and file?
I could ask hundreds of other questions to which the answer would be: NO. So have they changed for the better? "For how long?", would be my next question. How long till the next person gets hurt? How long before the next person realises they have wasted half of their life with a fake ministry? How long before the current scandals are made known?
Considering they have been riding a heavily laden train on a highly polished, greased track towards certain doom for decades- inertia itself is working against them.
Their recent efforts are like throwing a banana peel accross the track to try to save the joint..
Georgio, I hope you don't mind me reproducing your comments here. I think this pretty much answers the question about whether TWI is getting better or not:
quote:
I just had an internet conversation with some Way teens. First they deny every claim I make. Then when I prove them wrong I am told to look at the big picture not the "one" scandal that happened 6 years ago.
Other hi-lights:
my experiences were taught, not real.
Even tho VPW plagiarized, they're glad he did.
I was rebuked in the name of JC to stop posting. I refused to stop and pointed out the failed rebuking. No reply.
I was called a liar. Told anyone who speaks against the Way doesn't believe the word. Told I had NO RIGHT to speak against twi.
I was told that I "look poor" (they have my picture) and that I am overweight because I left The Way.
Was told "no one wants to hear this"
Was told that TWI had to reduce membership in order to keep an eye on people.
Was told Mark and Avoid didn't exist.
Was told that being critical of TWI was proof that I didn't believe in God's word. Then , I watched the same people be critical of the Catholic Church. When I pointed out the hypocrisy, they told me that I keep concentrating on the negative.
I was told that people who leave TWI have streaks of bad luck. I told them that didn't happen to me. They said "Yeah but what good have you done?" As if my life were a waste.
I was told I do not believe The Word.
I just want to hug these kids and let them know. But they're so brainwashed they can't even hold a decent argument. They told me arguing is devilish, even as they argue with me.
They also told me gay people cannot be saved!
It hurts that they won't even consider my side. I grew up like them and it ended up really stunting my growth. They're walking into trouble and it kills me that I can't help them.
Le the WAYGB read this and stew on it. You are killing the innocence and spirit of youth!
My take on things? TWI has indicated that it will never change. The people making the decisions have absolutely no remorse and, imo, putting Mrs. W out like they did just shows how cruel, heartless and willing to break promises and vows they are.
Say a woman is battered and abused. Sometimes she justifies her husband's behavior and sets a limit -
"if he ever hits me" becomes
"if he hits me again" becomes
"if he hits the kids" becomes
"if he ever REALLY hurts one of us and puts us in the hospital"....
and so on.
Eventually her view of normal becomes SO FAR OFF NORMAL that she doesn't know what normal is. Say he yells at, abuses verbally and physically the kids and her - she threatens to leave him if he doesn't "get better". He gets "better" by just hitting her but continuing to mentally abuse her and the kids and she thinks things are "better" and stays in the relationship.
TWI is so far from "normal" that "better" is a relative term and most likely only means that they are covering up the abuse better or have swapped one form of abuse for another, so that it appears to be better to some. Personally, I think Georgio's post speaks for itself. That leopard has not changed its spots in the least.
As long as the Way's governing body elects itself and is accountable only to itself, there will never be meaningful, positive change.
And, really, the Way International was never set up with oversight in mind. It was meant to function with a strong, dynamic Wierwille-like leader in charge and with yes-men supporting him. For all his lecturing on Word in Culture and the continuance of the Way International after him, I don't think Mr. Wierwille really believed the Way would continue without him or his family. If he had, maybe he would have considered the possibility or the need for independent review and oversight of the organization.
Or, maybe he just didn’t want an independent body reviewing him or his actions.
Whoa, great postings here. I had to admit that the absence of hearing about a scandal does not necessarily mean scandals are not there. I guess you are right. I went blinded for years never hearing any of it, and at the end when I heard of some of them, I did not believe them. I left the ministry and still had a tough time believing them.
I guess I would like to believe by now that the current BOD are not sexual predators like their "predator-sessors".
Actually that gets right to this issue. When you have nothing to hide...you have nothing to hide...when you do, you do.
If that is better then hip hip horray for them. Keep it on the down low for a while, untill everyone forgets, untill it becomes useful again.
If they have asked for forgiveness from their God then coming clean before those you hurt should be no problem.
...and no I don't think that will ever happen and I ain't holdin' my breath.
When I got mugged I had to come before a group of leaders and peers to tell them how I was going to change for the better, become a stronger manOgod. What have they done? Denied denied denied. "We never had a policy about this, we never siad that. That is all in the past. We are moving forward." If only it was all that easy. Ignore what I stole yesterday, today I haven't stolen a thing and I am not going to dwell on the past. Besides LCM made me do it. lol What a joke. A sad joke.
I think the Way is in a honeymoon stage, lulling people back to sleep, having 'sweet' fellowship.
Deep inside, some of those leaders that have caused so much hurt may even be shocked at their own actions. But eventually, when their pride or ego or ability to control the flock is somehow challenged, there'll be another witchhunt.
Maybe just in time to get your young adult children,Innies, or your grandbabies...
Because in the authority stucture of the Way Tree there is no way to prevent it from happening. If you are a lowly fellowship attendee, then you are at the bottom of the food chain.You Have NO Voice. Especially if you are a woman!
Slam denominations all you want, Innies--but they have stuctures and protections in place so that lowly congregants can have a voice. Rotten leaders can be scrutinised in denoms. Not in TWI though.
They say that they can't apologize because it would open them up to too many lawsuits. Well, DUH!! If you did something wrong, don't you think you should have to provide some sort of recompense??? -->
This from the mouth of wc leadership, including Dottie Moneyhands. She knows, says and freely admits that "lives have been ruined." She knows. She was responsible for some of those lives.
quote:
..."That is all in the past. We are moving forward." If only it was all that easy. Ignore what I stole yesterday, today I haven't stolen a thing and I am not going to dwell on the past. Besides LCM made me do it. lol What a joke. A sad joke.
Georgio, TWI owns a house in Toledo. I can't remember the details, but I think Pat Proberge's site has more information on it. I'll look for a link to it for you.
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Oakspear
"There are no scandals...to my knowledge" - what a testimony!
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Goey
There were no scandals for years, because the abuses and evil were effectively covered up for so long. Scandal take place when thing are revealed - not necessarily while they are happening.
Given TWI's history, the absence of scandal today means nothing at all.
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Georgio Jessio
Forgive my ignorance. The Way bought land in Toledo? Info please!
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Allan
With the new 'appointments' to hq I don't think you will be waiting long for new scandals.
An (un-named by me)international reverend who has been assigned there has a real 'weakness fur wimmin, oh yeahhhh..
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lindyhopper
How do you measure "better?" Where on the yardstick does twi go from bad to good? And isn't it relative to where you live, how much you are involved etc?
I know that in one area someone I know is trying to make things better. He recognizes that there have been problems but limits his understanding of how deep it goes and how bad it was/is to his own experiences. So where he lives things are better...at least for him they seem to be. I only know his perspective.
What of other areas and with other leaders? What of the systemic problems that were the root cause of the first major problem and the next and the next...? Have those things been changed? Have they been changed publically? Is still teaching that college loans are a bad idea a good thing for their kids? Have they ever said anything about the "genuine spiritual suspicion" teaching being wrong? Do they acknowledge that the M&A policy was a policy and has changed? Have they admitted that getting out of debt was a policy from the seasoned wayfer on up and publically said that policy was wrong? Have they apologized to all the people they hurt? Have they even publically acknowledged that they hurt many people at least among thier rank and file?
I could ask hundreds of other questions to which the answer would be: NO. So have they changed for the better? "For how long?", would be my next question. How long till the next person gets hurt? How long before the next person realises they have wasted half of their life with a fake ministry? How long before the current scandals are made known?
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rascal
Good points Lindy, Twi couldn`t possibly get any better, without fixing what was wrong...
They haven`t apologized or asked forgiveness, nor tried to make amends to those wronged.
That would be a clear indicator that God hasn`t been invited back either....
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Goey
Apolgies are meaningless without resitution or the willingnees to right the wrongs.
TWI will never apologize. To expect it is unrealistic.
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Ham
Better?
Don't think so..
Considering they have been riding a heavily laden train on a highly polished, greased track towards certain doom for decades- inertia itself is working against them.
Their recent efforts are like throwing a banana peel accross the track to try to save the joint..
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Ham
Georgio, I hope you don't mind me reproducing your comments here. I think this pretty much answers the question about whether TWI is getting better or not:
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Belle
Ham, we think too much alike!
:D-->
Good points, Lindy.
My take on things? TWI has indicated that it will never change. The people making the decisions have absolutely no remorse and, imo, putting Mrs. W out like they did just shows how cruel, heartless and willing to break promises and vows they are.
Say a woman is battered and abused. Sometimes she justifies her husband's behavior and sets a limit -
"if he ever hits me" becomes
"if he hits me again" becomes
"if he hits the kids" becomes
"if he ever REALLY hurts one of us and puts us in the hospital"....
and so on.
Eventually her view of normal becomes SO FAR OFF NORMAL that she doesn't know what normal is. Say he yells at, abuses verbally and physically the kids and her - she threatens to leave him if he doesn't "get better". He gets "better" by just hitting her but continuing to mentally abuse her and the kids and she thinks things are "better" and stays in the relationship.
TWI is so far from "normal" that "better" is a relative term and most likely only means that they are covering up the abuse better or have swapped one form of abuse for another, so that it appears to be better to some. Personally, I think Georgio's post speaks for itself. That leopard has not changed its spots in the least.
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Kevlar2000
As long as the Way's governing body elects itself and is accountable only to itself, there will never be meaningful, positive change.
And, really, the Way International was never set up with oversight in mind. It was meant to function with a strong, dynamic Wierwille-like leader in charge and with yes-men supporting him. For all his lecturing on Word in Culture and the continuance of the Way International after him, I don't think Mr. Wierwille really believed the Way would continue without him or his family. If he had, maybe he would have considered the possibility or the need for independent review and oversight of the organization.
Or, maybe he just didn’t want an independent body reviewing him or his actions.
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Oakspear
According to Born Again to Serve by Mrs. Wierwille, there was a Board of Directors made up of PFAL grads from around the country in the mid-fifties.
This board was disbanded by Wierwille in favor of the three-man Board of Trustees because they argued with Wierwille too much.
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Eagle
Whoa, great postings here. I had to admit that the absence of hearing about a scandal does not necessarily mean scandals are not there. I guess you are right. I went blinded for years never hearing any of it, and at the end when I heard of some of them, I did not believe them. I left the ministry and still had a tough time believing them.
I guess I would like to believe by now that the current BOD are not sexual predators like their "predator-sessors".
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templelady
Better--
I think the best that I have been able to ascertain is that they are not getting appreciably any worse
Or at least not any worse since LCM left
But then they got a lot worse after LCM took over
(condsidering what went on under VPW that's quite an undertaking in and of it self)
So are they better than when LCM was in charge
Are they better than the TWI of 1985
or 1975
Just how much better and in what areas??
BUt we on the outside don't really know because they hide behind their "locked" doors
And just why those doors need to be "Locked" is another whole issue
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lindyhopper
Actually that gets right to this issue. When you have nothing to hide...you have nothing to hide...when you do, you do.
If that is better then hip hip horray for them. Keep it on the down low for a while, untill everyone forgets, untill it becomes useful again.
If they have asked for forgiveness from their God then coming clean before those you hurt should be no problem.
...and no I don't think that will ever happen and I ain't holdin' my breath.
When I got mugged I had to come before a group of leaders and peers to tell them how I was going to change for the better, become a stronger manOgod. What have they done? Denied denied denied. "We never had a policy about this, we never siad that. That is all in the past. We are moving forward." If only it was all that easy. Ignore what I stole yesterday, today I haven't stolen a thing and I am not going to dwell on the past. Besides LCM made me do it. lol What a joke. A sad joke.
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Bramble
I think the Way is in a honeymoon stage, lulling people back to sleep, having 'sweet' fellowship.
Deep inside, some of those leaders that have caused so much hurt may even be shocked at their own actions. But eventually, when their pride or ego or ability to control the flock is somehow challenged, there'll be another witchhunt.
Maybe just in time to get your young adult children,Innies, or your grandbabies...
Because in the authority stucture of the Way Tree there is no way to prevent it from happening. If you are a lowly fellowship attendee, then you are at the bottom of the food chain.You Have NO Voice. Especially if you are a woman!
Slam denominations all you want, Innies--but they have stuctures and protections in place so that lowly congregants can have a voice. Rotten leaders can be scrutinised in denoms. Not in TWI though.
So I think it is about the same.
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Belle
They say that they can't apologize because it would open them up to too many lawsuits. Well, DUH!! If you did something wrong, don't you think you should have to provide some sort of recompense???
-->
This from the mouth of wc leadership, including Dottie Moneyhands. She knows, says and freely admits that "lives have been ruined." She knows. She was responsible for some of those lives.
AMEN, Lindy!
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Belle
Georgio, TWI owns a house in Toledo. I can't remember the details, but I think Pat Proberge's site has more information on it. I'll look for a link to it for you.
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Belle
Georgio, here's the link to Pat's site with some information. There was a thread here, too, I'm looking to see if I can find it.
TWI's Toledo Property
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Ham
Yep. Some seem to think ole loy resides there..
But.. it looks like a pretty impressive piece of real estate. attached garage, FOUR bedrooms..
what in the heck would he need with FOUR bedrooms?
Maybe shouldn't ask..
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
templelady
do most of us care if the are kinder and genteler
now? i wouldn't go back for gold!
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bliss
Innie told me today that "things are going to change real soon, there's some big ones coming."
When I asked what, they said "can't say until the Anniversary! It hasn't been announced yet."
And this is from an assis FC who is my friend.
I almostscreamed!!!!
Does that not sound odd to them that they "can't tell?"
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Ham
I could very well guess: they are gonna bring back the ROA, PFAL, WOW and invite all us deadbeats back..
I think attendance would be embarassingly low. That is what they wanted though, after all..
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Ham
More likely: "Rosie's getting a new 'assistant'"
Or even MAYBE: "loy's coming back home.."
Heck, that'd happen BEFORE they'd even think of inviting anybody back to their little piece of "heaven"..
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