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6 hours ago, memeandonlyme said:

Rocky,

Thank you for sharing the video, I hadn't seen it. I don't watch tv but heard Megan Kelly had left tv for a bit. Did she leave because she was battling the sexual harassment to save her career?

Btw, I don't watch commercial television either, but do watch YouTube, Hulu, Amazon Prime video and PBS online.

I just ran into an Associated Press news story about this recently released (in France, and in French) book about an adult woman detailing her experience as a young teen (13-15 years old) having had a sexual relationship with a much older man who happens to be still alive and previously a celebrated literary star in that country.

While twi excuses sexual misconduct by its clergy with adult (sometimes married) women, the interpersonal dynamics at work in the power relationships in twi weren't different from what this French author describes... at least according to what I've read in English. Here's one of the book reviews on Amazon translated into English:

In 1993, Gabriel Matzneff published a book in which he recounts his adventures with young V., 13 years old when he was 50.
V., this is Vanessa Springora, the very one who publishes today The Consent... The very one that, from 1986 to 1987, was Gabriel Matzneff's little victim under the complacent gaze of much of the intellectual world of the time. Bernard Pivot will shamelessly say to Matzneff during one of his shows: “You are still a kitty collector”...
Here you go.
Everyone knew very well that Matzneff only touched very young virgin girls or young boys aged 11 or 12...
Here you go.
Everyone knew he was a criminal pedo who went to Manila regularly to satisfy his little boy fantasies...
Here you go.
Everyone knew it, even the President of the Republic of the day... Even Vanessa Springora's own mother.
Here you go.
Yeah, but Gabriel Matzneff was an author, so it changed everything. Because Matzneff knew how to manipulate and seduce with words. Because he made young Vanessa believe that there was nothing wrong with the fact that a 50-year-old man had sex with a 13-year-old child.
Springora uncomplacently recounts how Matzneff spotted her, seduced, isolated, submissive and ransacked her. That's the predator.
Then she tells the story of how she tried to escape this grip.
She tells the story of a 13-year-old girl, caught in the clutches of a most fearsome narcissistic pervert.
She tells how this predator himself has carefully recounted in books published by major publishers his sexual adventures with minors... without shocking anyone, without justice interfering with them... without anyone worrying about the fate of the young victims...
At my humble level, I thank Vanessa Springora for publishing this book. I thank her on behalf of all of us: the abused young girls, the hookers, the “who did not dare to speak”, the “who spoke but who were rebarred”, the “who survived”, the “who did not survive”, the “who drove away”, the “who were annihilated by a narcissistic pervert”, the “who believed” that it was all their fault ”...
In short, I thank her from the bottom of my heart.

 

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19 hours ago, WordWolf said:

Hello.

The short of it is that they way didn't "go" bad because vpw set it up "bad" behind the curtain, and just hid it from his audience.  From the beginning, vpw knew to tell the public one thing from Scripture, and wait until he was in private to pervert its contents and say the opposite.  (Like how God was OK with ORGIES.)   lcm was a well-meaning, earnest student in college when he heard of vpw,  which led eventually to lcm's life being destroyed.  vpw KNEW he was conning us, so he knew who to tell WHAT.  lcm thought vpw was really hearing from God, so he was sincere- which is why he got caught.    vpw was the one who taught lcm that he was supposed to cheat on his wife-  that he had to "loosen up" on the subject of marital fidelity, and that lust was a "need" and that, when he traveled, he needed to find women to "meet his needs" locally, and so on.   lcm was carefully groomed to seek out sex outside his marriage, just as vpw carefully identified more vulnerable women and groomed them to be ok with extramarital sex.    Nobody put a physical gun to lcm's heads or their heads, but there was YEARS of manipulation by vpw to set it all up.  vpw started because HE was fine with cheating on his wife, so he set things up to make it easier to cheat on his wife.  He taught lcm to imitate him, so he also taught him to cheat on his wife.     So, yes, lcm was an a-hole, but he didn't start out that way.  He was also one of vpw's victims, which is why he victimized others. 

So, yes, lcm and the women were adults, but it wasn't QUITE as simple as a firm "no" to a blunt request or offer of sexual relations.  vpw set up locations, and doctrines, to make it all easy-  places to contrive comfort and privacy,  doctrines to make it OK with God and to put himself above questioning.  etc.   I'm sure a few women wanted the attention of the star-  vpw WANTED more of those women in twi-  but the majority were COERCED into things, some of them by being drugged unconscious. 

If all of this helped you see that it was possible to cheat on a marriage, and for you to decide NEVER to do it, then good for you, that's a good conclusion to draw, and to be commended, IMHO.  Please save a little compassion for the women who just wanted a class on the Bible and ended up told that they needed to please God by just going along with this leader and letting him do sexual things to her.

 

And further.....

  • As a charlatan and sexual predator, wierwille preemptively set "scriptural ground rules" by moving boundary lines.
  • In teaching his "Christian Family and Sex" class (1975)..... wierwille instructed this class as if he had professional expertise in this area.
  • Yet, in effect..... wierwille was setting the foundation for future, sexual predation as many of these women would go on staff or corps.
  • In teaching the "casual nature of sex," vpw was minimizing/eliminating precious boundaries and protocols found in scripture.
  • By illustrating and describing genitalia in this context and class, wierwille was advocating pre-marital sex.
  • At no time in this class, or throughout wierwille's teachings.....does wierwille EVER teach on the sin of adultery!

~~~~~~~~~

Therefore.......

  • Anyone who was involved in wierwille's advanced teaching series (or corps training)........ were vulnerable and susceptible to sexual targeting.
  • It has been well-documented that some of wierwille's victims *groomed* other women to his lair, the motor coach.
  • Still others...... were blindsided when they entered his motor coach and saw the implications of this "invite" to be with him.
  • And others...... were given alcohol or drugged so that wierwille could have his way with them.
  • The trustees and emeritus knew the dark secrets and crimes!! that were perpetrated in the servitude of "the man of God."
  • Don, Howard, Craig, Donna, Rosalie and wierwille's valets, bodyguards, bus drivers, pimps, etc...... were all enablers in this seduction.
  • An inner circle of zealots and opportunists were **in on the game that was being played**......and then, poof........they, too, disappeared.
  • Hiding in Plain Sight........it is ALL so obvious now.  Yet, many of us were so busy jumping thru hoops..... we were not privy to it.
  • Plus....... we were indoctrinated to NOT even consider (Eve's downfall was that she considered) that *The Teacher* was a sex pervert [pfal].

~~~~~~~~~

Concluding....

  • Greasespot Café has been shouting from the rooftops for nearly 20 years to expose twi's manipulation and exploitation.
  • When Wierwille died......Chris Geer stepped forward to protect and RESTORE the "legacy of victor paul wierwille."
  • When Craig Martindale was ousted for "extra marital affairs"......that should have been THE END of twi.
  • Yet........Rosalie rallied the corps to stand with her and RESTORE the ministry.  Another 16 years of "rebuilding"....???
  • Today....more splinter groups have risen from the ashes to claim the mantle of "Revival and Restoration."   Huh?
  • Why is it?........these newly-exited clergy and corps censor anyone who declares or asks the hard questions of the past?
  • Why is it?........none of these splinter cult leaders have addressed the moral depravity and criminal nature in vpw/twi?
  • Why is it?........that, even to this day, there are those who claim to have been a part of something that was great?
  • Great????........when EVERTHING in wierwille's cult.....classes, programs, campuses, legacy......has burned to the ground.
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1 hour ago, skyrider said:

At no time in this class, or throughout wierwille's teachings.....does wierwille EVER teach on the sin of adultery!

I can't cite a specific place where he taught this, but he taught that when the Bible talks about adultery, it's talking about spiritual adultery (worshipping other gods) and not about physical intercourse. He went on to imply that if someone still thinks it's about intercourse, it's an indication that person is not spiritually mature enough to understand the deep meanings involved in scripture...whatever the hell that's supposed to mean.:confused:

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IIRC, he spent a few MINUTES out of 7 sessions of the CFS class that might be considered to cover adultery or fornication.  There was I Corinthians 7:1 and 2, and I think that's about all he covered on the subject.  He said the literal on "touch" in 7:1 meant "to help himself", so a man wasn't supposed to "help himself" to a woman.    He also mentioned "flee fornication." ( I Corinthians 6:18a) , but he didn't get into it.  He talked about someone drawing a picture of Tick (the dog), with a flea on his head, with the caption "flea fornication." He didn't actually teach we were supposed to FLEE fornication, but he had time to describe the drawing in detail. 

For a class that was 7 sessions long, the number of verses covered was scant, and the actual hand-out of verses was 2 pages long.   I've heard there was some teacher's guide with more verses, but I've never seen one.   All the students got was 2 pages- one on the virtuous woman and a chapter in Proverbs, and the other on vpw claiming that the "original sin" was an act of, ahem, "self-love" (or "self-abuse" if that's how you think of it.) 

The classes that everyone was expected to take were the BAIT, so they never outright stated his most perverse stuff- he saved that for private meetings on-campus to the Corps, to the staff, and so on.    Taped sermons touched on them sometimes, but generally not to any great degree. 

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3 hours ago, WordWolf said:

IIRC, he spent a few MINUTES out of 7 sessions of the CFS class that might be considered to cover adultery or fornication.  There was I Corinthians 7:1 and 2, and I think that's about all he covered on the subject.  He said the literal on "touch" in 7:1 meant "to help himself", so a man wasn't supposed to "help himself" to a woman.    He also mentioned "flee fornication." ( I Corinthians 6:18a) , but he didn't get into it.  He talked about someone drawing a picture of Tick (the dog), with a flea on his head, with the caption "flea fornication." He didn't actually teach we were supposed to FLEE fornication, but he had time to describe the drawing in detail. 

For a class that was 7 sessions long, the number of verses covered was scant, and the actual hand-out of verses was 2 pages long.   I've heard there was some teacher's guide with more verses, but I've never seen one.   All the students got was 2 pages- one on the virtuous woman and a chapter in Proverbs, and the other on vpw claiming that the "original sin" was an act of, ahem, "self-love" (or "self-abuse" if that's how you think of it.) 

The classes that everyone was expected to take were the BAIT, so they never outright stated his most perverse stuff- he saved that for private meetings on-campus to the Corps, to the staff, and so on.    Taped sermons touched on them sometimes, but generally not to any great degree. 

He was grooming us to extend our bounderies of acceptance.

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11 hours ago, WordWolf said:

...The classes that everyone was expected to take were the BAIT, so they never outright stated his most perverse stuff- he saved that for private meetings on-campus to the Corps, to the staff, and so on.    Taped sermons touched on them sometimes, but generally not to any great degree. 

 

7 hours ago, waysider said:

He was grooming us to extend our bounderies of acceptance.

 I agree. Wierwille’s modus operandi was in developing an undercurrent that grew stronger as one became more involved with the organization (like joining programs and staff).

Undercurrent: an underlying feeling or influence, especially one that is contrary to the prevailing atmosphere and is not expressed openly; a current of water below the surface and moving in a different direction from any surface current…teachings available to the general public were seemingly benign promoting study of the Bible, offering keys to overcoming adversity and finding fulfilment in life. All that supposedly wholesome sounding Bible stuff on the surface hides the undertow. You'll find it's all about wierwille's skewed interpretation of the Bible commingled with lies... Your hopes and dreams become entangled with the busy work of the ministry. Any false sense of happiness and fulfillment really depends on how much you commit to an organization. Christian, beware these are treacherous waters! The deeper you go the more you find wierwille’s influence leading you further and further away from the simple and honest life of a Christian. Wierwille was like Captain Nemo and my experience in TWI was like twenty thousand (or more) lies under the sea.

 

Edited by T-Bone
formatting & revision
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On 1/13/2020 at 4:37 PM, waysider said:

I can't cite a specific place where he taught this, but he taught that when the Bible talks about adultery, it's talking about spiritual adultery (worshipping other gods) and not about physical intercourse. He went on to imply that if someone still thinks it's about intercourse, it's an indication that person is not spiritually mature enough to understand the deep meanings involved in scripture...whatever the hell that's supposed to mean.:confused:

I have a distinct recollection of some early "grooming" material ie PFAL, that talks about moving boundaries  Maybe it was in "renewed mind" class.  Cursed are those who remove their neighbours' boundaries.  According to VPW, this is not just the field boundaries (the obvious as referred to in Deut 27 and Prov 22 and Prov 23 (among other places) but the boundaries of other people's minds.  And yet - that's exactly what VPW was doing with us - moving the boundaries of our minds.  For some, who had poor boundaries, that could possibly have been a good thing (note: could.  But the actuality was that boundaries were probably pushed further out in an unhealthy way; vulnerable people were very easy prey).  For most of us, that would be moving the boundaries of good commonsense rules instilled by our parents or society. 

But actually, for all of us, what he was doing with his teaching was precisely removing boundaries: he was replacing those societally decent sexual and other behavioural boundaries by his own perverted boundaries of what was decent behaviour and then instilling a new boundary of "lockbox."

Deut 27: 'The one who moves his neighbor's boundary marker is cursed.' And all the people will say, 'Amen!'

Job 24: Some remove the landmarks; they violently take away flocks, and feed thereof.

Prov 23: Remove not the old landmark; and enter not into the fields of the fatherless:

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