Oh..I think the manifestations were right on all counts..when you had bold, excited believers they 'manifested' wonderfully..feel welcome to expound what you think Def and Dave..
The shallow thinking on the topic is best exemplified by the grammatically nonsensical & extrabiblical phrase "operate the manifestions". Think about it.
If it was so right, then why were the supoosed messages from the Omniscient Creator of the Universe so boring, repetitive & predictable?
The shallow thinking on the topic is best exemplified by the grammatically nonsensical & extrabiblical phrase "operate the manifestions". Think about it.
If it was so right, then why were the supoosed messages from the Omniscient Creator of the Universe so boring, repetitive & predictable?
I just received through the spontaneous deity within this prophecy:
"My children I the Lord your God am with you always. I will never ever leave you because wherever
you go there I am, forever 'n ever 'n ever...'cause I am...um.....uh......eternal..and everywhere...
...'n stuff..."
80s Flashback: "Whack!!! - "you were thinking too much during that second part..." or, "you should have thought to stop speaking after "forever".
...Now do it again..."
(nooooooo!!!!)
Oh God, how I despised the "practice sessions" of those intermediate classes.
Here's a possible "revelation" (or has someone done this already?) - Print out our spontaneous prophecies upon little slips of paper and insert them into tasteless, hollow cookies. Might want to get Pat Robertson on the phone for this one. Sounds like something he could sell along with his wife's milkshakes....
1Corinthians 12: 7 "the manifestation of the spirit.." Don't tell me Evan..another verse along with baptism for the dead that you can't seem to ever remember reading ?? And by your calling of them 'gifts' tends to give away a few clues me thinks !!
1Corinthians 12: 7 "the manifestation of the spirit.." Don't tell me Evan..another verse along with baptism for the dead that you can't seem to ever remember reading ?? And by your calling of them 'gifts' tends to give away a few clues me thinks !!
It "gives away" a clue that Evan has probably read the first verse of the chapter from which you quoted.
1 Corinthians 12:1: "Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant."
It also "gives away" a clue that he may have read in verse 8 of that chapter the words immediately before the list of what Wierwille called manifestations, "is given by the Spirit," and concluded that something "given by the Spirit" can reasonably be called a "gift of the Spirit" and that more than one thing "given by the Spirit," when considered together, can reasonably be called "gifts" or "gifts of the Spirit."
Evan should be careful about giving away clues like that, or he'll expose himself as someone who reads the Bible, can understand what he reads, and can draw reasonable conclusions from what he reads. From other clues Evan has given away (accidentally, I'm sure) it would seem that he actually believes the Bible, reads it more for insiration and spiritual enlightenment than for "inerrant accuracy," but can also hold his own in a scriptural debate, should he deem it fitting. I'd further conclude that he thinks that the overall message of love, goodness, etc. is more important than most doctrinal quibbles. And he has the nerve to call himself a Christian!
Regarding what you quoted, it doesn't address Evan's questions or comments.
My options are set to ignore allan, but I think we can all see why he didn't come to the doctrinal section after being challenged to numerous times....he can not have an intelligent conversation or debate. His only purpose was to follow Mo down here and continue attacking her and her beliefs. Given the behavior of each, I'd say allen is helping people accept and see the goodness in the Mormon religio and see more clearly why it's good to continue to separate themselves from any and all TWI doctrine and practice.
Penguin, I only have my personal experience to go on and given your personal experience, can you honestly say that you never faked tongues, interpretation or prophecy? I did, all the time. I would even prepare ahead of time in case I was called on. I also got complimented many times for my "beautiful" T&I or prophecy.
Also, what IS "manifestation of the spirit"? We never heard any other word used to describe using the "gifts" of the spirit, except for "manifestation". Also, how can one really "operate all nine all the time"? I venture to guess that there's not one person who can honestly say that they have ever been in that position.
Don't we get the "gifts" of God and different "powers" when we need them? We don't always have the ability to heal someone, there's lots of variables (that we don't fully understand) in play with healing, but when we need it and when it's "right" some pretty awesome things can happen. I think SIT and prophecy are in that same category. We don't always have discerning of spirits unless you count "genuine spiritual suspicion"....but when we need it, it's there....
*shrug*
"Manifestation of the spirit" is not the same thing as the "gifts of the spirit"
One is a noun - expression or symptom of the spirit
whereas the other is what "things" one can use to show "expression of the spirit"
You can use the "gifts of the spirit" to show that you have the spirit....
That's the way I see it today. Tomorrow I may have a different answer. :)
One other common term for manifestations in PFAL/Way teaching was "enablements", another "abilities".
In general I benefitted from getting an understanding of God as a real, immediate presence. My long view back now is that fussing so over the terms and definitions hampers progress and personal growth. Scripting and orchestrating everything so tightly limits the wonderful path of discovery in a person's life. There's no surprises.
That's kind of weird considering how diverse and incredible the whole of our lives and creation is.
Penguin, I only have my personal experience to go on and given your personal experience, can you honestly say that you never faked tongues, interpretation or prophecy? I did, all the time. I would even prepare ahead of time in case I was called on. I also got complimented many times for my "beautiful" T&I or prophecy.
Belle -- I feel so sorry for you. If what you said is true, you have missed out on so, so, much. Sorry, but that is the case. Yup -- many did fake it (from what I hear here), and many are more than willing to discount a genuine experience as so much garbage because of whatever reason, that actully was genuine for them.
Speaking in tongues is real. Interpretation thereof is real. Hey --- while I'm at it, counterfeiting it is real too.
Now ---- which camp are you in?? Eh??? If you prepared ahead of time, then I would agree that it wasn't real.
But it doesn't negate that which is real, either. :)
Allan, you did miss the point. Wierwill uses 'manifest' as a verb. v7 is a noun. Doesn't that bother you? I don't really need to add to what LG said, which covers the nuts & bolts clearly.
And to get this out of the way, gramatically you cannot 'operate a manifestation'. When you 'operate the gift', if you will, a manifestation is produced. You don't don't operate the thing produced. You operate that thing which produces.
I would like to touch on the implications, however. Wierwille's phraeology does damage even beyond the pinheaded breaking down into unnecessary bits, as soks points out. It takes the emphasis off the gift, and puts it on the 'operator', on whom the onus is to be real spurchal and bring forth manifestations by his 'believing'. The emphasis is clearly in the Spirit who does the giving & distributing of gifts, not on the heavy-revvy hotshot who thinks he's doing the work.
Words mean something. Wierwille's failure to stick to the very Bible to which he claimed adherence led him & others quite astray.
With very rare exceptions you can't read in the Bible anything like a person determine to 'manifest' this and that. What you read of, even in Jesus' case, is extreme submission and obedience in following God. Read Moses, Joshua, Jeremiah, John the Baptist, Peter, Paul, etc. What they did looked nothing NOTHING like what we heard in DerVeg.
I have often criticized TWI doctrine as being egocentric -- placing the emphasis on the person rather than putting the emphasis on God. What I've read on this thread corresponds to that.
Think about it for a second, "All 9 all the time" = if you are really "walking," you will manifest all 9 of the gifts/manifestations at will. Therefore, what did a lot of people will to do...not all, but a lot.
Was there pressure to speak in tongues at the close of session 12? Did people want to find approval with the wonderful men and women of God that they've met? Sure...so some people "faked it."
Was there pressure to interpret and to prophesy during "believers meetings?" -- Oh, yeah. How about the embarassment of not being inspired to do so when called upon? Therefore, how many people "faked it?"
And what about the embarassment of the twig coordinator who called upon a mere "foundational" grad that they just met in a believer's meeting? Talk about not getting that "heavy revy" -- to say nothing of the spot that the poor neophyte was placed on!
Pressure, pressure, pressure.
Pressure, pressure, pressure.
Didn't get that miracle? Must not have been walking.
Didn't get the word of knowledge that there was a cop ahead? Didn't get the word of wisdom to slow down? Well, your believing was obviously hosed!
Prayed for the sick and they stayed sick? Either the pray-er wasn't walking or the pray-ee's believing wasn't where it needed to be.
Where was the emphasis in all of this? God? or the Individual?
Sure, something good happens and we breathe a quick "thank God." But when you report to your twiggies about the great thing that happened, what was the reaction -- I usually heard, "Wow, man, you were really walking!" (barf)
Seriously, how many times did you hear "Praise God!" versus "you were walking"?
Where was the emphasis?
I'm not saying ANYTHING bad about the teaching of the manifestations/gifts of the spirit. But what was taught with it, around it, through it was: you, the enlightened TWI believer, are enabled...YOU can do all of this stuff.
The verse: "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" was used all the time (including in regards to this subject). But how much emphasis was on "I can do all things" and how much was on "through Christ who strengthens me?" And when there was any emphasis on "through Christ...", I seem to recall them equating this with the gift of the Holy Spirit (oh, excuse me, I should have said holy spirit instead...silly of me)
What ever happened to "blessed be the meek?"
What ever happened to "Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up."
Oh, yeah, silly me. Those verses were not addressed "To Us" -- they were only addressed "For Our Learning" and so didn't apply.
Maybe if the emphasis was a little more on the Giver than the Gifts...
Y'all will have to excuse me...maybe my Catholicism is messing with my perception again. (Let's see if I can kill another thread)
David, thanks for your input. Perhaps Penguin has the same experiences you have had. :) I didn't. I never "felt it" nor was I ever "inspired" not even in my private prayer life. Maybe it's because of when I got in (TWI II - 1993), maybe it's because all the love and truly good people were gone by then...who knows. *shrug* I'm glad we can all talk here despite our differences of opinions and beliefs.
Socks, I never heard "enablements" or "abilities", but doesn't using those terms make null and void vee pee's grape cluster analogy of the "manifestation" of the spirit being one thing as opposed to different "gifts" of the spirit. He taught, and all of TWI consequently, that there was one spirit and nine manifestations - not gifts. Which is where, I think, allan's confusion comes from.
The Evan and Mark, I agree. And, Mark, you said what I was trying to say, but your post makes much more sense. :) ....and I'm not Catholic, so I don't think that's it. ;)
Hi Evan. :) That's it I think, on the "operation" of stuff.
PFAL teaching clearly stated that holy spirit is "operated" by believing , and that manifestations were, as you state Belle, a kind of grape cluster of abilities that the believer had. I tried to figure out the language of it all at the time and I'd boil it down to -
holy spirit, pneuma hagion, a new nature, "eternal life spirit" that became not only "yours" but part of you, and received at the time of the "new birth"....
which is "Christ in you", a new nature with a new character and new abilities, "His eyes behind your eyes", etc....
of which there were 9 specific manifestations listed in the bible that would be the result of "believing action" in a person who knew how to believe accordingly.
Something clearly inferred in PFAL is that the 9 manifestations aren't "all" there is to the new birth. That is, they aren't the sum total of what pneuma hagion is in a person, rather they would be considered a part of the new life in Christ. Remember Romans 13 - these things shall pass away, they aren't permanent fixtures in the eternal life of a person born again. They're for "now". For that matter, they aren't even the point and purpose of a Christian's life. That's to be overwhelmingly devoted to love - love to God and our fellow man. Out of that life of love is produced the things we read about, like these "manifestations". An active love-life produces a person who will want to do good and so God will produce both His greater will and the desire to fulfill it in that person.
To pursue them solely for the successful achievement of "operation" would be useless and counter-productive. Like wanting a big bank account full of lots of money, but no desire to work and save to build it or be prepared for the opportunities that would develop to do so. So it becomes a paradox trying to focus on both things separately, and at once. Love - the selfless giving of oneself to another, is the wind that gently knocks the first domino over into the next.
Or so I would say. (see reference to "Romans 13 above - what do I know?!!) :D :lol: This is a little like the Ford trying to explain to Henry that if he'd put the tires on the front where the headlights were, they wouldn't wear out so fast. The way I see it, the knowledge gained from the bible doesn't equal understanding. It's just knowledge, albeit good stuff. Understanding comes from enlightenment, a stuffy sounding word but one the bible itself uses to describe what God wants to happen. He wants what we're able to learn and see through our hearts to be enlightened, by the spirit of wisdom and revelation He gives to us. Like the Ford, we see the parts but the well fitted assembly of them all comes from His guidance.
PFAL teaching clearly stated that holy spirit is "operated" by believing
THere is lies the crux of VPW's whole teaching about the Gifts of the Spirit
IMO
You don't Operate the Holy Spirit
The HS is part of the Godhead
The HS doesn't answer to man it answers to God
It gives gifts as it sees fit as directed by God
TO say that one can "operate" these gifts on demand is like me calling each one of you up and demanding a Christmas gift, right now! I'll tell you what to buy and you have no choice but to deliver!
Sorry, but that smacks of an arrogance that I find offensive when applied to the HS
Now , am I saying that those of you who actually experienced SIT in TWI and continue to do so are arrogant??--not at all--I merely point out that rather than YOU doing the operating on demand--The HG is very generous with gifts in that area in your life.
I used to have such guilt about never thinking I received revelation and all these "heavies" around me where hearing from God left and right. A long time ago I had to convince myself that my getting to heaven didn't depend on SIT or revelation or anything but confessing Jesus as Lord and believing God raised him from the dead.
I won't change someone's mind about SIT if they believe it's right or wrong. I'm glad so many people have their minds made up on that point! It just seems obvious that either way, the presentation was wrong. The pressure was wrong. How I hated (and still do) being put on the spot about ANYTHING! All 9 all the time! What a joke. Who walked around SIT and interpreting ALL THE TIME? If you want to know what I think, I think that the claim to SIT all the time was a way to control our brains to not think about anything else, like perhaps God wants us to be comfortable in our own skin?????
And I'll say this. In a certain way, I've observed others & myself walking in the realm of the supernatural much more by accident than by trying to.
Submitted people, yielded to the Spirit (opposite of self-willed), motivated by love, are doing and saying all manner of inspired things without even realizing .
I used to have such guilt about never thinking I received revelation and all these "heavies" around me where hearing from God left and right. A long time ago I had to convince myself that my getting to heaven didn't depend on SIT or revelation or anything but confessing Jesus as Lord and believing God raised him from the dead.
I won't change someone's mind about SIT if they believe it's right or wrong. I'm glad so many people have their minds made up on that point! It just seems obvious that either way, the presentation was wrong. The pressure was wrong. How I hated (and still do) being put on the spot about ANYTHING! All 9 all the time! What a joke. Who walked around SIT and interpreting ALL THE TIME? If you want to know what I think, I think that the claim to SIT all the time was a way to control our brains to not think about anything else, like perhaps God wants us to be comfortable in our own skin?????
Here's one thing that may help you out a little, Irish...
If you will recall, Weirwille taught 1 Cor 12:11 (But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.) that all of these are worked by the spirit (the gift that God gave you), dividing to every man as he (the man) wills. (I don't have any more of my TWI books anymore, so if I got that part wrong, please let me know.
παντα δε ταυτα ενεργει το εν και το αυτο πνευμα διαιρουν ιδια εκαστω καθως βουλεται (Textus Recepticus)
παντα δε ταυτα ενεργει το εν και το αυτο πνευμα διαιρουν ιδια εκαστω καθως βουλεται (Tischendorf)
παντα δε ταυτα ενεργει το εν και το αυτο πνευμα διαιρουν ιδια εκαστω καθως βουλεται (Byzantine)
παντα δε ταυτα ενεργει το εν και το αυτο πνευμα διαιρουν ιδια εκαστω καθως βουλεται (Westcott/Hort)
You will note that all these versions all say the same thing, exactly. So we are pretty sure that there's no controversy what is said in the Greek.
A literal word for word translation is:
παντα δε ταυτα ενεργει το εν και το αυτο πνευμα διαιρουν ιδια εκαστω καθως βουλεται
and all these things operates the one and the same spirit distributing separately to each one as he purposes
I want first to concentrate on the word "εκαστω." (ekastO)
This word ekastO is an adjective form of the word "ekastos."
Ekastos means every one (with the emphasis on each member of the group). This is as opposed to "pas" (which means all -- "every" with the emphasis on the group as a whole)
More importantly, it is an ADJECTIVE in the dative case. The dative case indicates an indirect object. Because of the fact that there is no noun to which this ADJECTIVE follows, there has to be an elipsis figure of speech employed. You have to fill in the blank. In other words, "to each ___________ as he purposes."
Why is that important? Keep reading...
The next key word is "βουλεται" (bouletai)
bouletai is a form of the verb boulomai (the root verb, boulomai, means: to will, to decree, to appoint, to intend). Bouletai is in the 3rd Person singular present tense, middle voice, subjunctive mood.
Translate that gobbledygook, please:
Third person singular = he/she/it (as opposed to third person plural=they)
Present tense = happening now, as opposed to in the future or the past
Middle voice = the subject the verb refers to is also the direct object (e.g., I wash myself)
Subjective mood = there is a potentiality, that its not a definite but possible (I may give, as opposed to I will give, which would be indicative mood)
-------------------
OK, so what does this lesson in Greek grammar mean?
It means that there is NO WAY the verse can accurately be interpreted the way Wierwille interpreted it.
First, he said that the usage of the word spirit was "the gift" as opposed to "the giver."
To refute that, you will note the following:
- "every man" should have been translated "each
one
" -- with
one
clearly identified as an implied word (supplying the elipsis). The word "man" does not appear in the Greek. The word translated "every" in the KJV is an ADJECTIVE not a noun.
- the word "wills" is clearly in the singular. The nearest noun in the nominative case (subject) is the word has to refer back to the noun "Spirit", not "man" (which isn't there anyway...and even the adjective "every" is in the dative (indirect object) case.
If the word "spirit" referred to "the gift" rather than "the giver", it would be inantimate and would not be able to be the subject of a verb that means "to intend" -- inantimate objects simply cannot "intend" anything.
Secondly, Wierwille said that the word "he wills" refers back to "every man"
To refute that, the same argument used above applies. The word "every man" is an adjective "each" in the dative case. An adjective in the dative case CANNOT be the subject of a verb. Therefore, the actor (subject) must be the nearest nominative case noun...which is "spirit."
-------------------------------------
So what's the point?
Orthodox Christianity is a lot closer in how it treats this issue than TWI ever was. If you're going to "authentically" speak in tongues, the Holy Spirit will distribute that manifestation as He wills. If you're going to interpret tongues, the Holy Spirit will distirbute THAT as He wills. and so on.
What's the implication (tying this back to my earlier post)?
Everybody was expected to speak in tongues in TWI. There was incredible pressure to do so. After all, your status as a "born again believer" was in question if you didn't speak in tongues. You all remember Lindyhopper's old signature line where he made fun of speaking in tongues? Think about it for a second...how many people had the same exact utterances when they "spoke in tongues?" I'm not saying that people intentionally faked it (although I am sure some did), but I wonder how much of this was "genuine," versus your subconscious taking over because of the pressure and then causing gibberish to come out of your mouth (which conveniently sounded in many cases pretty similar)? Sort of a form of autohypnosis, rather than authentic, inspired, speaking in another tongue?
Everybody was expected to interpret and to prophesy? Again, lots of pressure. Many of us have commented how the bulk of interpretations and prophesies were largely the same (not all of them, but a HUGE percentage). Again, I wonder how many of them were authentic and how many were an act of the subconscious causing words to come spewing out of the mouth based upon what had been heard before in "believers meetings" or what was studied in the collaterals or what was studied in the Bible?
If what was happening in TWI was consistently authentic (not that authentic manifestations of the gift didn't happen), then why in the world would "acceler sessions" be needed? Could it be that we needed to loosen up our brains to let the subconscious come out more easily?
Why would we need to, as at least I was instructed, to practice speaking in tongues by forcing ourselves to start with a different sound? If it was given as the Spirit intended, wouldn't it always be completely natural? Why would we need to practice interpretation/prophesy so that it would be in either the first person or the third person sometimes, instead of our norm?
All of these pracitces make sense if we were training our brains to accept something that the brain didn't inherently want to accept. But if it was something distributed by the Spirit as the Spirit intended, there would be no need to do so.
Please keep in mind I am NOT questioning speaking in tongues, interpretation, prophecy, etc. I know that it exists and I know that the Spirit distributes it to each as the Spirit wills.
But the way that TWI taught it was, in truth, a form of gnosticism that led to egoism. The emphasis was on the believer rather than the God the believer should have believed in. Hopefully the above demonstrated one place where the Word of God was improperly handled.
I proably was one of the few who spoke and interpreted in tongues not using KJV language and common expressions. instead it was more college level English like "I have spead out a banquet table of my many promises for you to feast upon, so my children partake and enjoy my loving goodness" or "Be like the wind
and bees that pollinate flowers, so spiritually matur in my Word". How many of you did Interpretations or prophecy like that?
Well Mark..all I can say is that the 'strength' of most of the people attending the Catholic church is reflected by the teachings of the church, very weak and ludicrously wrong.
Justify weakness..make excuses for 'feeling uncomfortable' about direct fellowship with God and His holy spirit.
Templelady..I know people who have been 'baptised' in the Mormon church who came out of the water s.i.t.
They were quickly told to cease doing this..again, going against what the Word says in 1Corinthians 14.."forbid not to s.i.t." This is done only because lds believe 'tongues have ceased'
Belle..we were taught that "just because you have/haven't experienced something doesn't mean it isn't true."
Evan..whether 'manifest' is a noun or not does not discount it 'becoming' a verb !!
Thankyou VPW for the good you did do..you weren't perfect, but we learnt from the good and that 'stays us'
I must say at first I was annoyed that you presumed I wanted help, but I read your reply and was really impressed. Of course, I had to get over feeling like I was sitting in a Corps meeting first. Nevertheless, have you studied Greek and/or English? If you don't mind my asking? The thing that hit me most was what you said about practice sessions. To think that I used to tell people that crap about running through the alphabet to "broaden" their sounds, etc. Shame on me. Did I have a paper bag over my head or what?
Evan kind of hit the nail on the head for me, though. I also truly believe that God works in us much more than we know. I'm in a Bible study where we read Esther this week. Big to do about God not being mentioned in that book, but then there's Bullinger who shows L-O-R-D and D-R-O-L four times and I-AM once, written acrostically. Was not God hidden from His people by their own selves during that time? And, I believe it's that way a lot of times today. However, God's not hidden from those of us who look diligently for Him, just as he wasn't from Esther and Mordecai.
And to ruin what was otherwise wonderful reading, whoever you are Thomas Loy whatchamacallit--
WHO CARES??? You think you are so wonderful because you think you are so wonderfully poetic or something? You so poetic you can write an acrostic? Don't you see who you sound like? You sound like VPW and if I were you, I'd be scared, very scared. I would have let it go, but perhaps someone will open yours eyes. :blink:
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dmiller
SIT was taught correctly. Docvic's *interpretaton* of "interpretation of tongues" was wrong though. :)
David
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Allan
Oh..I think the manifestations were right on all counts..when you had bold, excited believers they 'manifested' wonderfully..feel welcome to expound what you think Def and Dave..
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TheEvan
The shallow thinking on the topic is best exemplified by the grammatically nonsensical & extrabiblical phrase "operate the manifestions". Think about it.
If it was so right, then why were the supoosed messages from the Omniscient Creator of the Universe so boring, repetitive & predictable?
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TheInvisibleDan
I just received through the spontaneous deity within this prophecy:
"My children I the Lord your God am with you always. I will never ever leave you because wherever
you go there I am, forever 'n ever 'n ever...'cause I am...um.....uh......eternal..and everywhere...
...'n stuff..."
80s Flashback: "Whack!!! - "you were thinking too much during that second part..." or, "you should have thought to stop speaking after "forever".
...Now do it again..."
(nooooooo!!!!)
Oh God, how I despised the "practice sessions" of those intermediate classes.
Here's a possible "revelation" (or has someone done this already?) - Print out our spontaneous prophecies upon little slips of paper and insert them into tasteless, hollow cookies. Might want to get Pat Robertson on the phone for this one. Sounds like something he could sell along with his wife's milkshakes....
Danny
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Allan
Maybe we were hearing the 'manifestations' in differn't meetings ??Oh, thats right..differnt COUNTRIES !!
If it were some of the posters here 'manifesting' that you were referring to I'd quite believe it !
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TheEvan
Okay, I'll go first.
1. Can you justify the extrabiblical phraseology of "manifest" as a verb, "manifesting" or "operating manifestations"?
2. If those phrases don't occur in the Bible (they don't) do you have Biblical justification to show that the phrases are consistent with the Bible?
3. If you don't have that Biblical justification (you won't), do you really know what the gifts and their use are all about? (You don't).
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Allan
1Corinthians 12: 7 "the manifestation of the spirit.." Don't tell me Evan..another verse along with baptism for the dead that you can't seem to ever remember reading ?? And by your calling of them 'gifts' tends to give away a few clues me thinks !!
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LG
It "gives away" a clue that Evan has probably read the first verse of the chapter from which you quoted.
1 Corinthians 12:1: "Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant."
It also "gives away" a clue that he may have read in verse 8 of that chapter the words immediately before the list of what Wierwille called manifestations, "is given by the Spirit," and concluded that something "given by the Spirit" can reasonably be called a "gift of the Spirit" and that more than one thing "given by the Spirit," when considered together, can reasonably be called "gifts" or "gifts of the Spirit."
Evan should be careful about giving away clues like that, or he'll expose himself as someone who reads the Bible, can understand what he reads, and can draw reasonable conclusions from what he reads. From other clues Evan has given away (accidentally, I'm sure) it would seem that he actually believes the Bible, reads it more for insiration and spiritual enlightenment than for "inerrant accuracy," but can also hold his own in a scriptural debate, should he deem it fitting. I'd further conclude that he thinks that the overall message of love, goodness, etc. is more important than most doctrinal quibbles. And he has the nerve to call himself a Christian!
Regarding what you quoted, it doesn't address Evan's questions or comments.
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Belle
My options are set to ignore allan, but I think we can all see why he didn't come to the doctrinal section after being challenged to numerous times....he can not have an intelligent conversation or debate. His only purpose was to follow Mo down here and continue attacking her and her beliefs. Given the behavior of each, I'd say allen is helping people accept and see the goodness in the Mormon religio and see more clearly why it's good to continue to separate themselves from any and all TWI doctrine and practice.
Penguin, I only have my personal experience to go on and given your personal experience, can you honestly say that you never faked tongues, interpretation or prophecy? I did, all the time. I would even prepare ahead of time in case I was called on. I also got complimented many times for my "beautiful" T&I or prophecy.
Also, what IS "manifestation of the spirit"? We never heard any other word used to describe using the "gifts" of the spirit, except for "manifestation". Also, how can one really "operate all nine all the time"? I venture to guess that there's not one person who can honestly say that they have ever been in that position.
Don't we get the "gifts" of God and different "powers" when we need them? We don't always have the ability to heal someone, there's lots of variables (that we don't fully understand) in play with healing, but when we need it and when it's "right" some pretty awesome things can happen. I think SIT and prophecy are in that same category. We don't always have discerning of spirits unless you count "genuine spiritual suspicion"....but when we need it, it's there....
*shrug*
"Manifestation of the spirit" is not the same thing as the "gifts of the spirit"
One is a noun - expression or symptom of the spirit
whereas the other is what "things" one can use to show "expression of the spirit"
You can use the "gifts of the spirit" to show that you have the spirit....
That's the way I see it today. Tomorrow I may have a different answer. :)
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socks
One other common term for manifestations in PFAL/Way teaching was "enablements", another "abilities".
In general I benefitted from getting an understanding of God as a real, immediate presence. My long view back now is that fussing so over the terms and definitions hampers progress and personal growth. Scripting and orchestrating everything so tightly limits the wonderful path of discovery in a person's life. There's no surprises.
That's kind of weird considering how diverse and incredible the whole of our lives and creation is.
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dmiller
Belle -- I feel so sorry for you. If what you said is true, you have missed out on so, so, much. Sorry, but that is the case. Yup -- many did fake it (from what I hear here), and many are more than willing to discount a genuine experience as so much garbage because of whatever reason, that actully was genuine for them.
Speaking in tongues is real. Interpretation thereof is real. Hey --- while I'm at it, counterfeiting it is real too.
Now ---- which camp are you in?? Eh??? If you prepared ahead of time, then I would agree that it wasn't real.
But it doesn't negate that which is real, either. :)
David
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TheEvan
A very hearty 'amen', socks.
Allan, you did miss the point. Wierwill uses 'manifest' as a verb. v7 is a noun. Doesn't that bother you? I don't really need to add to what LG said, which covers the nuts & bolts clearly.
And to get this out of the way, gramatically you cannot 'operate a manifestation'. When you 'operate the gift', if you will, a manifestation is produced. You don't don't operate the thing produced. You operate that thing which produces.
I would like to touch on the implications, however. Wierwille's phraeology does damage even beyond the pinheaded breaking down into unnecessary bits, as soks points out. It takes the emphasis off the gift, and puts it on the 'operator', on whom the onus is to be real spurchal and bring forth manifestations by his 'believing'. The emphasis is clearly in the Spirit who does the giving & distributing of gifts, not on the heavy-revvy hotshot who thinks he's doing the work.
Words mean something. Wierwille's failure to stick to the very Bible to which he claimed adherence led him & others quite astray.
With very rare exceptions you can't read in the Bible anything like a person determine to 'manifest' this and that. What you read of, even in Jesus' case, is extreme submission and obedience in following God. Read Moses, Joshua, Jeremiah, John the Baptist, Peter, Paul, etc. What they did looked nothing NOTHING like what we heard in DerVeg.
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markomalley
I have often criticized TWI doctrine as being egocentric -- placing the emphasis on the person rather than putting the emphasis on God. What I've read on this thread corresponds to that.
Think about it for a second, "All 9 all the time" = if you are really "walking," you will manifest all 9 of the gifts/manifestations at will. Therefore, what did a lot of people will to do...not all, but a lot.
Was there pressure to speak in tongues at the close of session 12? Did people want to find approval with the wonderful men and women of God that they've met? Sure...so some people "faked it."
Was there pressure to interpret and to prophesy during "believers meetings?" -- Oh, yeah. How about the embarassment of not being inspired to do so when called upon? Therefore, how many people "faked it?"
And what about the embarassment of the twig coordinator who called upon a mere "foundational" grad that they just met in a believer's meeting? Talk about not getting that "heavy revy" -- to say nothing of the spot that the poor neophyte was placed on!
Pressure, pressure, pressure.
Pressure, pressure, pressure.
Where was the emphasis in all of this? God? or the Individual?
Sure, something good happens and we breathe a quick "thank God." But when you report to your twiggies about the great thing that happened, what was the reaction -- I usually heard, "Wow, man, you were really walking!" (barf)
Seriously, how many times did you hear "Praise God!" versus "you were walking"?
Where was the emphasis?
I'm not saying ANYTHING bad about the teaching of the manifestations/gifts of the spirit. But what was taught with it, around it, through it was: you, the enlightened TWI believer, are enabled...YOU can do all of this stuff.
The verse: "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" was used all the time (including in regards to this subject). But how much emphasis was on "I can do all things" and how much was on "through Christ who strengthens me?" And when there was any emphasis on "through Christ...", I seem to recall them equating this with the gift of the Holy Spirit (oh, excuse me, I should have said holy spirit instead...silly of me)
What ever happened to "blessed be the meek?"
What ever happened to "Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up."
Oh, yeah, silly me. Those verses were not addressed "To Us" -- they were only addressed "For Our Learning" and so didn't apply.
Maybe if the emphasis was a little more on the Giver than the Gifts...
Y'all will have to excuse me...maybe my Catholicism is messing with my perception again. (Let's see if I can kill another thread)
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Belle
David, thanks for your input. Perhaps Penguin has the same experiences you have had. :) I didn't. I never "felt it" nor was I ever "inspired" not even in my private prayer life. Maybe it's because of when I got in (TWI II - 1993), maybe it's because all the love and truly good people were gone by then...who knows. *shrug* I'm glad we can all talk here despite our differences of opinions and beliefs.
Socks, I never heard "enablements" or "abilities", but doesn't using those terms make null and void vee pee's grape cluster analogy of the "manifestation" of the spirit being one thing as opposed to different "gifts" of the spirit. He taught, and all of TWI consequently, that there was one spirit and nine manifestations - not gifts. Which is where, I think, allan's confusion comes from.
The Evan and Mark, I agree. And, Mark, you said what I was trying to say, but your post makes much more sense. :) ....and I'm not Catholic, so I don't think that's it. ;)
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socks
Hi Evan. :) That's it I think, on the "operation" of stuff.
PFAL teaching clearly stated that holy spirit is "operated" by believing , and that manifestations were, as you state Belle, a kind of grape cluster of abilities that the believer had. I tried to figure out the language of it all at the time and I'd boil it down to -
holy spirit, pneuma hagion, a new nature, "eternal life spirit" that became not only "yours" but part of you, and received at the time of the "new birth"....
which is "Christ in you", a new nature with a new character and new abilities, "His eyes behind your eyes", etc....
of which there were 9 specific manifestations listed in the bible that would be the result of "believing action" in a person who knew how to believe accordingly.
Something clearly inferred in PFAL is that the 9 manifestations aren't "all" there is to the new birth. That is, they aren't the sum total of what pneuma hagion is in a person, rather they would be considered a part of the new life in Christ. Remember Romans 13 - these things shall pass away, they aren't permanent fixtures in the eternal life of a person born again. They're for "now". For that matter, they aren't even the point and purpose of a Christian's life. That's to be overwhelmingly devoted to love - love to God and our fellow man. Out of that life of love is produced the things we read about, like these "manifestations". An active love-life produces a person who will want to do good and so God will produce both His greater will and the desire to fulfill it in that person.
To pursue them solely for the successful achievement of "operation" would be useless and counter-productive. Like wanting a big bank account full of lots of money, but no desire to work and save to build it or be prepared for the opportunities that would develop to do so. So it becomes a paradox trying to focus on both things separately, and at once. Love - the selfless giving of oneself to another, is the wind that gently knocks the first domino over into the next.
Or so I would say. (see reference to "Romans 13 above - what do I know?!!) :D :lol: This is a little like the Ford trying to explain to Henry that if he'd put the tires on the front where the headlights were, they wouldn't wear out so fast. The way I see it, the knowledge gained from the bible doesn't equal understanding. It's just knowledge, albeit good stuff. Understanding comes from enlightenment, a stuffy sounding word but one the bible itself uses to describe what God wants to happen. He wants what we're able to learn and see through our hearts to be enlightened, by the spirit of wisdom and revelation He gives to us. Like the Ford, we see the parts but the well fitted assembly of them all comes from His guidance.
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templelady
THere is lies the crux of VPW's whole teaching about the Gifts of the Spirit
IMO
You don't Operate the Holy Spirit
The HS is part of the Godhead
The HS doesn't answer to man it answers to God
It gives gifts as it sees fit as directed by God
TO say that one can "operate" these gifts on demand is like me calling each one of you up and demanding a Christmas gift, right now! I'll tell you what to buy and you have no choice but to deliver!
Sorry, but that smacks of an arrogance that I find offensive when applied to the HS
Now , am I saying that those of you who actually experienced SIT in TWI and continue to do so are arrogant??--not at all--I merely point out that rather than YOU doing the operating on demand--The HG is very generous with gifts in that area in your life.
At least that's my take on it
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irisheyes
I used to have such guilt about never thinking I received revelation and all these "heavies" around me where hearing from God left and right. A long time ago I had to convince myself that my getting to heaven didn't depend on SIT or revelation or anything but confessing Jesus as Lord and believing God raised him from the dead.
I won't change someone's mind about SIT if they believe it's right or wrong. I'm glad so many people have their minds made up on that point! It just seems obvious that either way, the presentation was wrong. The pressure was wrong. How I hated (and still do) being put on the spot about ANYTHING! All 9 all the time! What a joke. Who walked around SIT and interpreting ALL THE TIME? If you want to know what I think, I think that the claim to SIT all the time was a way to control our brains to not think about anything else, like perhaps God wants us to be comfortable in our own skin?????
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TheEvan
And I'll say this. In a certain way, I've observed others & myself walking in the realm of the supernatural much more by accident than by trying to.
Submitted people, yielded to the Spirit (opposite of self-willed), motivated by love, are doing and saying all manner of inspired things without even realizing .
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markomalley
Here's one thing that may help you out a little, Irish...
If you will recall, Weirwille taught 1 Cor 12:11 (But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.) that all of these are worked by the spirit (the gift that God gave you), dividing to every man as he (the man) wills. (I don't have any more of my TWI books anymore, so if I got that part wrong, please let me know.
Here is the verse in Greek from four separate manuscripts.
παντα δε ταυτα ενεργει το εν και το αυτο πνευμα διαιρουν ιδια εκαστω καθως βουλεται (Textus Recepticus)
παντα δε ταυτα ενεργει το εν και το αυτο πνευμα διαιρουν ιδια εκαστω καθως βουλεται (Tischendorf)
παντα δε ταυτα ενεργει το εν και το αυτο πνευμα διαιρουν ιδια εκαστω καθως βουλεται (Byzantine)
παντα δε ταυτα ενεργει το εν και το αυτο πνευμα διαιρουν ιδια εκαστω καθως βουλεται (Westcott/Hort)
You will note that all these versions all say the same thing, exactly. So we are pretty sure that there's no controversy what is said in the Greek.
A literal word for word translation is:
παντα δε ταυτα ενεργει το εν και το αυτο πνευμα διαιρουν ιδια εκαστω καθως βουλεται
and all these things operates the one and the same spirit distributing separately to each one as he purposes
I want first to concentrate on the word "εκαστω." (ekastO)
This word ekastO is an adjective form of the word "ekastos."
Ekastos means every one (with the emphasis on each member of the group). This is as opposed to "pas" (which means all -- "every" with the emphasis on the group as a whole)
More importantly, it is an ADJECTIVE in the dative case. The dative case indicates an indirect object. Because of the fact that there is no noun to which this ADJECTIVE follows, there has to be an elipsis figure of speech employed. You have to fill in the blank. In other words, "to each ___________ as he purposes."
Why is that important? Keep reading...
The next key word is "βουλεται" (bouletai)
bouletai is a form of the verb boulomai (the root verb, boulomai, means: to will, to decree, to appoint, to intend). Bouletai is in the 3rd Person singular present tense, middle voice, subjunctive mood.
Translate that gobbledygook, please:
Third person singular = he/she/it (as opposed to third person plural=they)
Present tense = happening now, as opposed to in the future or the past
Middle voice = the subject the verb refers to is also the direct object (e.g., I wash myself)
Subjective mood = there is a potentiality, that its not a definite but possible (I may give, as opposed to I will give, which would be indicative mood)
-------------------
OK, so what does this lesson in Greek grammar mean?
It means that there is NO WAY the verse can accurately be interpreted the way Wierwille interpreted it.
First, he said that the usage of the word spirit was "the gift" as opposed to "the giver."
Secondly, Wierwille said that the word "he wills" refers back to "every man"
-------------------------------------
So what's the point?
Orthodox Christianity is a lot closer in how it treats this issue than TWI ever was. If you're going to "authentically" speak in tongues, the Holy Spirit will distribute that manifestation as He wills. If you're going to interpret tongues, the Holy Spirit will distirbute THAT as He wills. and so on.
What's the implication (tying this back to my earlier post)?
Everybody was expected to speak in tongues in TWI. There was incredible pressure to do so. After all, your status as a "born again believer" was in question if you didn't speak in tongues. You all remember Lindyhopper's old signature line where he made fun of speaking in tongues? Think about it for a second...how many people had the same exact utterances when they "spoke in tongues?" I'm not saying that people intentionally faked it (although I am sure some did), but I wonder how much of this was "genuine," versus your subconscious taking over because of the pressure and then causing gibberish to come out of your mouth (which conveniently sounded in many cases pretty similar)? Sort of a form of autohypnosis, rather than authentic, inspired, speaking in another tongue?
Everybody was expected to interpret and to prophesy? Again, lots of pressure. Many of us have commented how the bulk of interpretations and prophesies were largely the same (not all of them, but a HUGE percentage). Again, I wonder how many of them were authentic and how many were an act of the subconscious causing words to come spewing out of the mouth based upon what had been heard before in "believers meetings" or what was studied in the collaterals or what was studied in the Bible?
If what was happening in TWI was consistently authentic (not that authentic manifestations of the gift didn't happen), then why in the world would "acceler sessions" be needed? Could it be that we needed to loosen up our brains to let the subconscious come out more easily?
Why would we need to, as at least I was instructed, to practice speaking in tongues by forcing ourselves to start with a different sound? If it was given as the Spirit intended, wouldn't it always be completely natural? Why would we need to practice interpretation/prophesy so that it would be in either the first person or the third person sometimes, instead of our norm?
All of these pracitces make sense if we were training our brains to accept something that the brain didn't inherently want to accept. But if it was something distributed by the Spirit as the Spirit intended, there would be no need to do so.
Please keep in mind I am NOT questioning speaking in tongues, interpretation, prophecy, etc. I know that it exists and I know that the Spirit distributes it to each as the Spirit wills.
But the way that TWI taught it was, in truth, a form of gnosticism that led to egoism. The emphasis was on the believer rather than the God the believer should have believed in. Hopefully the above demonstrated one place where the Word of God was improperly handled.
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George Aar
Rightly divided? (BTW, the term - all by itself - just gives me the creeps)
Nah, I don't think so. Much more likely it's a simple parlor trick.
Unfortunately, it's one that allowed us to be swindled out of a good portion of
our lives, due to it's seeming veracity. That's the problem with letting down
one's guard with regard to "spiritual" matters.
A skeptical mindset is our only hope...
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
I proably was one of the few who spoke and interpreted in tongues not using KJV language and common expressions. instead it was more college level English like "I have spead out a banquet table of my many promises for you to feast upon, so my children partake and enjoy my loving goodness" or "Be like the wind
and bees that pollinate flowers, so spiritually matur in my Word". How many of you did Interpretations or prophecy like that?
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Allan
Well Mark..all I can say is that the 'strength' of most of the people attending the Catholic church is reflected by the teachings of the church, very weak and ludicrously wrong.
Justify weakness..make excuses for 'feeling uncomfortable' about direct fellowship with God and His holy spirit.
Templelady..I know people who have been 'baptised' in the Mormon church who came out of the water s.i.t.
They were quickly told to cease doing this..again, going against what the Word says in 1Corinthians 14.."forbid not to s.i.t." This is done only because lds believe 'tongues have ceased'
Belle..we were taught that "just because you have/haven't experienced something doesn't mean it isn't true."
Evan..whether 'manifest' is a noun or not does not discount it 'becoming' a verb !!
Thankyou VPW for the good you did do..you weren't perfect, but we learnt from the good and that 'stays us'
for the rest of our lives.
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irisheyes
Mark:
I must say at first I was annoyed that you presumed I wanted help, but I read your reply and was really impressed. Of course, I had to get over feeling like I was sitting in a Corps meeting first. Nevertheless, have you studied Greek and/or English? If you don't mind my asking? The thing that hit me most was what you said about practice sessions. To think that I used to tell people that crap about running through the alphabet to "broaden" their sounds, etc. Shame on me. Did I have a paper bag over my head or what?
Evan kind of hit the nail on the head for me, though. I also truly believe that God works in us much more than we know. I'm in a Bible study where we read Esther this week. Big to do about God not being mentioned in that book, but then there's Bullinger who shows L-O-R-D and D-R-O-L four times and I-AM once, written acrostically. Was not God hidden from His people by their own selves during that time? And, I believe it's that way a lot of times today. However, God's not hidden from those of us who look diligently for Him, just as he wasn't from Esther and Mordecai.
And to ruin what was otherwise wonderful reading, whoever you are Thomas Loy whatchamacallit--
WHO CARES??? You think you are so wonderful because you think you are so wonderfully poetic or something? You so poetic you can write an acrostic? Don't you see who you sound like? You sound like VPW and if I were you, I'd be scared, very scared. I would have let it go, but perhaps someone will open yours eyes. :blink:
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TheEvan
That's not an answer, Allan. You instead attack Mark's religion. Totally unrelated to the challenge at hand. Can't we have a meaningful dialog?
George, even Wierwille's interpretation of "rightly divided" was wrongly divided.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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