Yeah, I have. However this is based upon yet another one of VPWs blunders with Greek. VPW taught that "saved" was translated from the Greek "sozo". Then he taught that sozo came from the Greek root word "zoe" meaning life in its fullest. He then relates that to "wholeness" . Then he fits that in with his formed, made & created / body, soul, and spirit theory. The final result being, saved means receiving the holy spirit and thus becoming body, soul and spirit once more ( the spirit being missing previously). So then according to VPW a person is saved/made whole when he/she receives the spirit.
The problem with this is that sozo - (saved) DOES NOT come from the Greek "zoe" as VPW errantly taught. Sozo comes instead from the primary Greek "sos" a contraction for the obsolete obsolete saoz, "safe". VPW foisted the Greek and then forced a new meaning on sozo so that his definition of salvation would fit neatly in with body, soul, spirit. He also misunderstood why the King James translated sozo "made/make whole"in regards to physical healing.
Salvation is from the Greek "soter" , which has a common root with sozo (saved). However neither of these Greek words is related to "zoe" or to wholeness. Wierwille was dead wrong in his definition of saved/salvation.
(Raf, was sozo / zoe covered in actual errors ? It may not be in PFAL but I do recall it in one of the collaterals I think.)
"Yeah, I have. However this is based upon yet another one of VPWs blunders with Greek. VPW taught that "saved" was translated from the Greek "sozo". Then he taught that sozo came from the Greek root word "zoe" meaning life in its fullest. He then relates that to "wholeness" . Then he fits that in with his formed, made & created / body, soul, and spirit theory. The final result being, saved means receiving the holy spirit and thus becoming body, soul and spirit once more ( the spirit being missing previously). So then according to VPW a person is saved/made whole when he/she receives the spirit.
The problem with this is that sozo - (saved) DOES NOT come from the Greek "zoe" as VPW errantly taught. Sozo comes instead from the primary Greek "sos" a contraction for the obsolete obsolete saoz, "safe". VPW foisted the Greek and then forced a new meaning on sozo so that his definition of salvation would fit neatly in with body, soul, spirit. He also misunderstood why the King James translated sozo "made/make whole"in regards to physical healing.
Salvation is from the Greek "soter" , which has a common root with sozo (saved). However neither of these Greek words is related to "zoe" or to wholeness. Wierwille was dead wrong in his definition of saved/salvation."
=========
See,
this is the type of problem that can crop up when you get your degree in "HOMILETICS"
and then act as if you got it in Koine Greek or Bible languages or the like.
However this is based upon yet another one of VPWs blunders with Greek. VPW taught that "saved" was translated from the Greek "sozo".
Well VPW was correct then. In the KJV the Greek word "sozo" is translated:
heal (3 times)
make whole (9 times)
preserve (1 time)
save (92 times)
be whole (2 times)
do well (1 time)
save one self (1 time)
such as should be saved (1 time)
Anyone who has a concordance (even a Youngs) can easily see the majority of the time (92 times) sozo is translated as: save, but then it is also translated: "heal" and "be whole", etc. There is a relationship between these words seeing sozo is also translated as: save, heal, be whole, preserve, etc. The Greek word "zoe" appears in John 10:10 where there it is translated: life. (zoe is translated: life - 133 times, life-time - once). Pneuma (most often translated: spirit - w/breath 151 times, with the word "Holy" 131 times) is also translated: "life" and it only appears once in: Rev 13:15. With a little research one can see there is a correlation between the words life and spirit just by looking into how these words are being translated. VPW did not "invent it" nor dream up the relationship between spirit and life. Just do your own research and see it for yourself.
I disagree with the poster who said that sos is related to sozo and/or zoe. The word sos is not related just by looking into how these words are being translated. The word sos is translated:
thine own (3 times)
thy {thine} (18 times)
As a noun: that is thine (2 times)
thy friends (1 time)
thy goods (1 time)
Where does one draw the conclusion that sos (seeing how it is translated) is even remotely related to either Greek word: sozo or zoe when one stops to consider how those word are translated? Just from this simple word study (and I will say it is not an intense one or a deep study at that) anyone can see there is no relationship or correlation between the word sos and the words sozo or zoe. I will agree however, and one might possibly draw the conclusion that the Greek word "soter" is a closer relationship to sozo (but even that might be a stretch as the verb form would be closer) as "soter" is translated:
saviour (1 time- with a lower case s)
Saviour (23 times)
The verb form "soteria" and "soterios" are related to soter as these words are translated: health, salvation, saving, that we should be saved, with soterios being translated: "that bringeth salvation". But these words (soter, soteria, soterios) have no relationship with the word sos. The Greek word "sos" and soter, soteria, soterious simply have no relationship beween them. Do your own research and quit listening to those who just want to discredit everything VPW ever wrote/said. Most of them don't know/understand what they are talking about. <_<
Too bad you had to ruin it at the end, but for the record, hearing you tell WordWolf do his own research is a lot like hearing a hooker tell a nun to have a little self-respect.
I'm surprised no one has brought up the Aramaic word for "saved" as it is used throughout places in the Syriac Pe-shi-tta, -Hayya, - which is equivalent to "life" (of receiving it, or being given it, or being promised such). Although I don't see where such would necessarily or exclusively denote the idea of being "made whole".
But I think it interesting that the word regarded most appropriate by the translators from the Greek to the Syriac, in place of sozo -was the Aramaic for "life".
I would also add that "life" (Hayya) used in the Syriac versions in place of "saved" or "salvation" most likely carried an eschatological significance, along the lines of "life in the age to come", with the expectation of becoming like the angels in heaven.
Well VPW was correct then. In the KJV the Greek word "sozo" is translated:
heal (3 times)
make whole (9 times)
preserve (1 time)
save (92 times)
be whole (2 times)
do well (1 time)
save one self (1 time)
such as should be saved (1 time)
Anyone who has a concordance (even a Youngs) can easily see the majority of the time (92 times) sozo is translated as: save, but then it is also translated: "heal" and "be whole", etc. There is a relationship between these words seeing sozo is also translated as: save, heal, be whole, preserve, etc. The Greek word "zoe" appears in John 10:10 where there it is translated: life. (zoe is translated: life - 133 times, life-time - once). Pneuma (most often translated: spirit - w/breath 151 times, with the word "Holy" 131 times) is also translated: "life" and it only appears once in: Rev 13:15. With a little research one can see there is a correlation between the words life and spirit just by looking into how these words are being translated. VPW did not "invent it" nor dream up the relationship between spirit and life. Just do your own research and see it for yourself.
I disagree with the poster who said that sos is related to sozo and/or zoe. The word sos is not related just by looking into how these words are being translated. The word sos is translated:
thine own (3 times)
thy {thine} (18 times)
As a noun: that is thine (2 times)
thy friends (1 time)
thy goods (1 time)
Where does one draw the conclusion that sos (seeing how it is translated) is even remotely related to either Greek word: sozo or zoe when one stops to consider how those word are translated? Just from this simple word study (and I will say it is not an intense one or a deep study at that) anyone can see there is no relationship or correlation between the word sos and the words sozo or zoe. I will agree however, and one might possibly draw the conclusion that the Greek word "soter" is a closer relationship to sozo (but even that might be a stretch as the verb form would be closer) as "soter" is translated:
saviour (1 time- with a lower case s)
Saviour (23 times)
The verb form "soteria" and "soterios" are related to soter as these words are translated: health, salvation, saving, that we should be saved, with soterios being translated: "that bringeth salvation". But these words (soter, soteria, soterios) have no relationship with the word sos. The Greek word "sos" and soter, soteria, soterious simply have no relationship beween them. Do your own research and quit listening to those who just want to discredit everything VPW ever wrote/said. Most of them don't know/understand what they are talking about. <_<
Hey, WTH:
Look up in Strong's Concordance: Word # 4982 (Hyperlink from Blue Letter Bible -- and, yes, I confirmed it in my hardcopy Strong's...)
quote: from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe")
Everyone knows Strong's Concordance was put together for the specific intent of discrediting VPW. Strong should have done his own research instead of listening to some anti-VPWites.
...hearing you tell WordWolf do his own research is a lot like hearing a hooker tell a nun to have a little self-respect.
I don't recall addressing WW specifically (or anybody else in particular) to do their own research in my previous post. The remark I made was intended to be taken as an admonition (not an accusation no one was) that one should do the biblical research for themselves rather than relying solely on what somebody else said they have "studied" biblically.
Come on people..instead of 'dickying' around words we know what is meant by 'salvation' and 'eternal life' etc.. Jesus didn't go through what he did just so people could have a 'good life'. !
WTH..I agree..people still come at the Word from an 'I hate Wierwille' attitude which is not theologically honest.
It is a great oversimplification to determine a correct translation of a word by merely doing a histogram of its translations in the KJV, or any other translation, for that matter.
In providing validation of the root of the word sOzO, I am not saying that "saved" or "secure" or "healthy" or whatever is or is not the accurate translation in any case. I haven't studied that in order to determine whether it is or not. And one use of the word may be accurate in one context and may be inaccurate in another. Having said that, I think a more interesting exercise would be to make sure the usage of the word is accurately translated or accurately applied in our particular dogmas or not.
For example, "he was saved" means a different thing than "he is saved," which means a different thing than "he will be saved," which means something different than "he is being saved," which is markedly different than "he is saving himself." The point is that each of those usages would trace back to the word sOzO, but they all mean significantly different things.
Come on people..instead of 'dickying' around words we know what is meant by 'salvation' and 'eternal life' etc.. Jesus didn't go through what he did just so people could have a 'good life'. !
WTH..I agree..people still come at the Word from an 'I hate Wierwille' attitude which is not theologically honest.
Alan, your hero, Wierwille, was a master at "dickying" around with words. Why the protest? Isn't that kind of hipocritical of you?
You said:
"
We
know what is meant by salvation and eternal life"
(emphasis mine)
Who is "we"? It is rather obvious that you don't have even the slightest clue concerning basic soteriology and the major differences among the various groups and churches.
To try to portray those who correct or point out obvious errors that VPW made as an "I hate Wierwille attitude" is silly and ignorant. It would seem to me that if you were actually interested in truth, good doctrine, etc, that you want to know about any errors.he may have made.
"I disagree with the poster who said that sos is related to sozo and/or zoe. The word sos is
not
related just by looking into how these words are being translated."
What I posted was as follows:
"
...Sozo comes instead from the primary Greek "sos" a contraction for the obsolete obsolete saoz, "safe" ..."
This comes directly from Strong's as has already been pointed out.
What WTH did was fail to actually look up sozo and read what Strong's had to say. He instead went straight to "sos" and in a sense was correct about the his definitions. Only it was the wrong "sos". This is partly my fault for not referencing Strongs or elaborating on the "sos" from Strongs # 4982.
So, not looking up Strong's first on sozo combined with possibly not understaning the Greek alphabet, WTH looked up the Greek sos ... instead of the Greek soô a rare epic verb for sôzô . Both sos and soô would be transliterated "sos" by Strong's which is kind of confusing.
So WTH, look up instead "sos" as in soô and you will see that "sos" from Strongs 4892 is indeed related to "sozo" and to "soter". However, I never said that either was related to zoe. That was VPW's errant claim.
Again, I should have elaborated and possibly then WTH may not have made his mistake. My apologies.
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Oakspear
Can we define "saved'?
Or "Salvation"?
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Allan
Ummm..eternal life.
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Belle
Can we just ignore the troll and let this thread die?
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Mike
Define salvation?
Anyone ever hear of... WHOLENESS?
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TheEvan
Based on the raw meaning of the word, Mike, I'd agree with you.
However, simply reading through all the instances of 'saved', 'salvation', etc leads me to go beyond this and state that salvation means:
-saved from wrath to come
-saved from our sins...ie, made righteous.
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Goey
Yeah, I have. However this is based upon yet another one of VPWs blunders with Greek. VPW taught that "saved" was translated from the Greek "sozo". Then he taught that sozo came from the Greek root word "zoe" meaning life in its fullest. He then relates that to "wholeness" . Then he fits that in with his formed, made & created / body, soul, and spirit theory. The final result being, saved means receiving the holy spirit and thus becoming body, soul and spirit once more ( the spirit being missing previously). So then according to VPW a person is saved/made whole when he/she receives the spirit.
The problem with this is that sozo - (saved) DOES NOT come from the Greek "zoe" as VPW errantly taught. Sozo comes instead from the primary Greek "sos" a contraction for the obsolete obsolete saoz, "safe". VPW foisted the Greek and then forced a new meaning on sozo so that his definition of salvation would fit neatly in with body, soul, spirit. He also misunderstood why the King James translated sozo "made/make whole"in regards to physical healing.
Salvation is from the Greek "soter" , which has a common root with sozo (saved). However neither of these Greek words is related to "zoe" or to wholeness. Wierwille was dead wrong in his definition of saved/salvation.
(Raf, was sozo / zoe covered in actual errors ? It may not be in PFAL but I do recall it in one of the collaterals I think.)
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Allan
Thankyou, Templelady answered the question on another thread.
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Oakspear
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CM
saved from what....
eternal salvation?
death.....
the fear of the unknown...
"in any other name"
lol....i suppose that is the english version
wonder what it's called in an other countrys
darn it posting too soon...need more time
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def59
No matter what it means, it is still only accomplished through Jesus.
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WordWolf
"Yeah, I have. However this is based upon yet another one of VPWs blunders with Greek. VPW taught that "saved" was translated from the Greek "sozo". Then he taught that sozo came from the Greek root word "zoe" meaning life in its fullest. He then relates that to "wholeness" . Then he fits that in with his formed, made & created / body, soul, and spirit theory. The final result being, saved means receiving the holy spirit and thus becoming body, soul and spirit once more ( the spirit being missing previously). So then according to VPW a person is saved/made whole when he/she receives the spirit.
The problem with this is that sozo - (saved) DOES NOT come from the Greek "zoe" as VPW errantly taught. Sozo comes instead from the primary Greek "sos" a contraction for the obsolete obsolete saoz, "safe". VPW foisted the Greek and then forced a new meaning on sozo so that his definition of salvation would fit neatly in with body, soul, spirit. He also misunderstood why the King James translated sozo "made/make whole"in regards to physical healing.
Salvation is from the Greek "soter" , which has a common root with sozo (saved). However neither of these Greek words is related to "zoe" or to wholeness. Wierwille was dead wrong in his definition of saved/salvation."
=========
See,
this is the type of problem that can crop up when you get your degree in "HOMILETICS"
and then act as if you got it in Koine Greek or Bible languages or the like.
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Raf
Wow. I need to look that up, Wolf, but on first read it's interesting.
Of course, you know that Paul got it wrong and God needed to wait 2,000 years for VPW to come along and fix Paul's mistake.
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What The Hey
heal (3 times)
make whole (9 times)
preserve (1 time)
save (92 times)
be whole (2 times)
do well (1 time)
save one self (1 time)
such as should be saved (1 time)
Anyone who has a concordance (even a Youngs) can easily see the majority of the time (92 times) sozo is translated as: save, but then it is also translated: "heal" and "be whole", etc. There is a relationship between these words seeing sozo is also translated as: save, heal, be whole, preserve, etc. The Greek word "zoe" appears in John 10:10 where there it is translated: life. (zoe is translated: life - 133 times, life-time - once). Pneuma (most often translated: spirit - w/breath 151 times, with the word "Holy" 131 times) is also translated: "life" and it only appears once in: Rev 13:15. With a little research one can see there is a correlation between the words life and spirit just by looking into how these words are being translated. VPW did not "invent it" nor dream up the relationship between spirit and life. Just do your own research and see it for yourself.
I disagree with the poster who said that sos is related to sozo and/or zoe. The word sos is not related just by looking into how these words are being translated. The word sos is translated:
thine own (3 times)
thy {thine} (18 times)
As a noun: that is thine (2 times)
thy friends (1 time)
thy goods (1 time)
Where does one draw the conclusion that sos (seeing how it is translated) is even remotely related to either Greek word: sozo or zoe when one stops to consider how those word are translated? Just from this simple word study (and I will say it is not an intense one or a deep study at that) anyone can see there is no relationship or correlation between the word sos and the words sozo or zoe. I will agree however, and one might possibly draw the conclusion that the Greek word "soter" is a closer relationship to sozo (but even that might be a stretch as the verb form would be closer) as "soter" is translated:
saviour (1 time- with a lower case s)
Saviour (23 times)
The verb form "soteria" and "soterios" are related to soter as these words are translated: health, salvation, saving, that we should be saved, with soterios being translated: "that bringeth salvation". But these words (soter, soteria, soterios) have no relationship with the word sos. The Greek word "sos" and soter, soteria, soterious simply have no relationship beween them. Do your own research and quit listening to those who just want to discredit everything VPW ever wrote/said. Most of them don't know/understand what they are talking about. <_<
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Raf
Thanks for the extra info, WTH. Worth looking up.
Too bad you had to ruin it at the end, but for the record, hearing you tell WordWolf do his own research is a lot like hearing a hooker tell a nun to have a little self-respect.
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TheInvisibleDan
I'm surprised no one has brought up the Aramaic word for "saved" as it is used throughout places in the Syriac Pe-shi-tta, -Hayya, - which is equivalent to "life" (of receiving it, or being given it, or being promised such). Although I don't see where such would necessarily or exclusively denote the idea of being "made whole".
But I think it interesting that the word regarded most appropriate by the translators from the Greek to the Syriac, in place of sozo -was the Aramaic for "life".
I would also add that "life" (Hayya) used in the Syriac versions in place of "saved" or "salvation" most likely carried an eschatological significance, along the lines of "life in the age to come", with the expectation of becoming like the angels in heaven.
Danny
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markomalley
Hey, WTH:
Look up in Strong's Concordance: Word # 4982 (Hyperlink from Blue Letter Bible -- and, yes, I confirmed it in my hardcopy Strong's...)
quote: from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe")
Have a good afternoon!
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Raf
Everyone knows Strong's Concordance was put together for the specific intent of discrediting VPW. Strong should have done his own research instead of listening to some anti-VPWites.
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What The Hey
I don't recall addressing WW specifically (or anybody else in particular) to do their own research in my previous post. The remark I made was intended to be taken as an admonition (not an accusation no one was) that one should do the biblical research for themselves rather than relying solely on what somebody else said they have "studied" biblically.
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Raf
Point taken.
So, instead of relying on what you claimed to have "studied" biblically, I'll do my own research, as Mark did in finding you were wrong.
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Allan
Come on people..instead of 'dickying' around words we know what is meant by 'salvation' and 'eternal life' etc.. Jesus didn't go through what he did just so people could have a 'good life'. !
WTH..I agree..people still come at the Word from an 'I hate Wierwille' attitude which is not theologically honest.
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WordWolf
Clarifying our terms to avoid confusion is a necessary step if we are to
increase in understanding.
Therefore, making sure we mean EXACTLY the same thing with our
terms is necessary.
It aids understanding and retards "weasel-wording", where someone
keeps changing the meaning in an attempt to dominate the discussion.
======
BTW,
I didn't do my own research there-that was quoted from further
up the page, from a poster who DID do his own research.
====
A healthy skepticism to any man's position is good.
It means we then look for ourselves and see if he's right or not.
This is especially true if previous examinations have shown him
to have a low batting average on his signature doctrines.
Therefore, a calm, reasoned approach is superior to an
"I love him" approach, just as it's superior to an
"I hate him" approach.
=====
Finally,
Mark quoted his source for his "research",
WTH did not, but insisted we do our own.
What's your source, WTH? Did YOU do your own?
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markomalley
It is a great oversimplification to determine a correct translation of a word by merely doing a histogram of its translations in the KJV, or any other translation, for that matter.
In providing validation of the root of the word sOzO, I am not saying that "saved" or "secure" or "healthy" or whatever is or is not the accurate translation in any case. I haven't studied that in order to determine whether it is or not. And one use of the word may be accurate in one context and may be inaccurate in another. Having said that, I think a more interesting exercise would be to make sure the usage of the word is accurately translated or accurately applied in our particular dogmas or not.
For example, "he was saved" means a different thing than "he is saved," which means a different thing than "he will be saved," which means something different than "he is being saved," which is markedly different than "he is saving himself." The point is that each of those usages would trace back to the word sOzO, but they all mean significantly different things.
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Goey
Alan, your hero, Wierwille, was a master at "dickying" around with words. Why the protest? Isn't that kind of hipocritical of you?
You said:
Who is "we"? It is rather obvious that you don't have even the slightest clue concerning basic soteriology and the major differences among the various groups and churches.
To try to portray those who correct or point out obvious errors that VPW made as an "I hate Wierwille attitude" is silly and ignorant. It would seem to me that if you were actually interested in truth, good doctrine, etc, that you want to know about any errors.he may have made.
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Goey
Posted by WTH:
What I posted was as follows:
This comes directly from Strong's as has already been pointed out.
What WTH did was fail to actually look up sozo and read what Strong's had to say. He instead went straight to "sos" and in a sense was correct about the his definitions. Only it was the wrong "sos". This is partly my fault for not referencing Strongs or elaborating on the "sos" from Strongs # 4982.
So, not looking up Strong's first on sozo combined with possibly not understaning the Greek alphabet, WTH looked up the Greek sos ... instead of the Greek soô a rare epic verb for sôzô . Both sos and soô would be transliterated "sos" by Strong's which is kind of confusing.
So WTH, look up instead "sos" as in soô and you will see that "sos" from Strongs 4892 is indeed related to "sozo" and to "soter". However, I never said that either was related to zoe. That was VPW's errant claim.
Again, I should have elaborated and possibly then WTH may not have made his mistake. My apologies.
Hint: Cick on underlined words for definitions.
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