Even though my wife is still in,I cannot and will not ever go back to the "ministry" Itallics are because it does not standfor god or his word,it is a coorporation with one purpose to make money.As such it does not care who is in it (people) as long as they are a warm body in servitude to the coorporation serving it self as it sees fit.
The last ac I attended was the "weekends " three to be exact from hell more like it.When loy said the adultries were spiritual rather than physical I went what the h is up with this since corinthians plainly states
it was of a carnal nature.He loy did not even say it was a allegory what?? I thought the ole boy has been horsing around and is trying to justify his actions.
Ala! ligh@ a limb coordinator of michigan at the time said "If you do not think this is the greatest in the world today you have spiritual problems deep spiritual problems" I almost laughed out loud asI thught has he been smelling what he has been shoveling.
The ac 79 was my best class asit got me to really love the old testament.am i thankful for what I learned? You bet.do I apply what I learnt ?Yes I do.
By the way,thank you all for your replies,since being ou I consider all options,I still believe there are good people in the way same as there are good people in the rc lutherns ect
Okay as far back as 76 I've heard Way leaders use Luke 17:2 as a reference to those who would
turn their backs on their committment to TWI:
"It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."
the first time I heard it, it was a teaching by VPW ,in say 1976, in reference to those who would be ordained as clergy. If those people turned around and left their appointment then VPW was saying that they would encounter an untimely and unpleasant demise. Okay so then later , like in 79 or 80 I heard it taught this verse applies to anyone , ordained or not, who left the WOW field. So they adjusted their "present truth" to scare WOWs into staying on the field. the last I heard of this was maybe 83 or 84 when it was applied to anyone who was thinking of bailing on TWI - that if you did then you were asking for it and this verse was to you from God and that leaving TWI was walking out on your commitment to God so you were knowingly "throwing off" that "hedge of protection". I'm sure that it has been used to scare lots of people into staying. Once the leaders realized that people were disenchanted with the obvious lack of abudncance in their life and in TWI lifestyle in general (except for the top level leaders) then they decided to try to intimidate and spook people. I'm glad to say that I never fell for that crap but then again I left before it became standard behavior.
to rip people a new one everytime they sawa someone.
Oakspear, did you take your class at Virginia Beach? me too. :P
Nope. 1st time at Rome City for Wierwille's class, 2nd time also at Rome City for Martindale's version one, and Sioux Falls, SD for Martindale's version two.
I know what the world has to offer without the Word of God and I know there are others who are in the same situation.
This ministry saved my life.
Hey there Thin Lizzy!! Welcome to Greasespot.
Now -- about the quote up above.
twi never saved anyone's life. It is God that does that, not the organization. :)
Sure they shared the Word with you (me too). And yup -- the world has little to offer, but the same can be said of twi. They are competing with the world for your soul, and it isn't on a godly level. :(
I have fond memories of some of my times there;
I hang onto some of the Word I learned there;
But I hate the org for what it is with it's two-fisted taking, two-faced lying, and two-step dancing to get out of the way of any accusations or allegations that would tarnish the goody two-shoe image that exists only in their minds, and in the minds of the blind followers they still have left.
Bramble and Rascal are right --- the good ones are out, and the worst ones are still in, and in control. But you said:
Leadership is changing and many have changed. The current Way Corps is different. They are being trained differently. The thought police have been fired and in their absence, the WC is being trained to question and think for themselves.
Folks in the wc couldn't think for themselves before they went in??? Huh, new one to me. And I doubt very seriously that rosie and gang are teaching them to come up with questions about twi.
Well -- nuff said. I took AC 79, and had a blast, but I would never go back to twi, regardless of how much they say they have changed.
twi will change, when they are serving ice water in Hell.
Ala! ligh@ a limb coordinator of michigan at the time said "If you do not think this is the greatest in the world today you have spiritual problems deep spiritual problems" I almost laughed out loud asI thught has he been smelling what he has been shoveling.
Ha! I wonder what Mr. L thinks today. He was major supporter of the lunatic during the fog years. Then when he found out the stench of the MOG, he turned. We were told at HQ that the L family was gone and that they owed the trustees apologies. Then we heard they came back, and then they were gone. It was a circus. It's like they disappeared off the face of the earth.
Yes, I am fighting to save the ministry because it saved my life.
As others have said,
GOD saved your life.
Anyone else "below" Jesus Christ in the story is nice but irrelevant.
It's fine for everybody who wants to walk away and call it over but I can't do it because I remember the agony of the spirit realm.
Give GOD the glory. He used whatever tools were at hand to save your life.
This does NOT mean you owe the TOOLS your life.
Loyalty is good-to a point.
If you wanted me to follow you off a cliff,
you PERSONALLY would have to be beyond exceptional.
(I don't think anyone's that good who's not seated at the right hand of God.)
I had lived with pain for a couple years (from a severe injury) and I took PFAL and got miraculous healing from it during the class. I have seen the lame walk. I have been at death's door. I have been physically mamed by spirits.
Quite a number of people were delivered from quite a number of things.
Your story is not completely unique.
Please don't confuse
being delivered DURING PFAL with
being delivered BY PFAL.
As Balaam learned, even a jackass can speak the truth,
but you don't just make him your guru....
I know what the world has to offer without the Word of God and I know there are others who are in the same situation.
Others need deliverance of that type and magnitude-I agree.
You're new around here and really should do some catching-up.
A lot of "old light" around here will be "new light" to you.
There are a LOT of Christians out there who know their stuff.
Some know BETTER than twi's best people.
There are a LOT of Christians who left twi and took their stuff with them.
As far as I know, even the WORST of them is better than twi.
There is a big difference between
"a ministry that has the Word of God"
and a ministry that IS the Word of God.
You were taught-as were most of us-
that NO Christian outside twi is competent spiritually.
This was a lie then, and it's MORE of a lie now,
as there are lots more EX-twi than twi'ers.
You were taught-as were all of us-
that twi had a special pipeline to God.
It was founded by a man receiving special revelation
that was unknown for the last 1800 years or more.
This was a HUGE lie.
twi does NOT resemble the 1st century church.
Read the book of Acts and make comparisons all
the way through.
Acts:
- no centralized authority
-much power
-no verse memorizing
-no talk of money except for specific, one-time events
twi:
-obey leadership or ELSE!
-talk ABOUT power but the leaders never SHOW it; only locals
-intellectual memorizing of teachings ABOUT Scripture
-mandatory 15% of your income which goes to hq and STAYS there
vpw's "special revelation" was that he had books from a handful
of FANTASTIC Christians (and a few others) and didn't tell us
he did. He plagiarized whole books from Bullinger-like
"Are the Dead Alive Now?". He plagiarized Receiving the
Holy Spirit Today, and the entire PFAL class.
The introductions to the White and Orange Books say he
learned it all from God or the Bible as his only textbook
and guidebook. That was a bold-faced lie.
Others here have TAKEN the class he stole-
which is SUPERIOR to PFAL,
and PFAL was better than that horrid WAP thing they're
using now.
This ministry saved my life.
GOD saved your life.
Don't swear blind lifelong allegiance to people because of what GOD did.
(Or for any other reason.)
There are others who need it. I want it to live for those people too.
Psst.
You're not the only Christian looking out for those people.
Lots of other Christians are, as well.
Some are among the tens of thousands who escaped twi.
Some never HEARD of twi.
People who learned under BG Leonard, they're FAR better
equipped to help them than anyone who relies on what
twi teaches.
Frankly, the deepest spiritual stuff ever taught-
Advanced class and higher-
demonstrated a LACK of understanding of a number
of things.
Think hard-I'm sure you noticed them and never
asked questions.....
Okay, so maybe it almost ruined my life too but I found the balance and the desire of my heart in my spouse. God IS good always. I just remember that. God is good ALWAYS.
Yes.
God does not deliver people only to beat them down again.
Staying with twi WILL do that, however.
I’m not retarded to what the ministry was, became, and now is.
Like myself,
I think you never saw all the REALLY bad stuff.
Look around here-there's eyewitness accounts,
accounts foolishly committed to writing or tape,
and other things. I was VERY shocked to hear
even the lighter stuff.
I can forgive the emotional rapists because justice was served.
I can't forgive the emotional rapists.
They didn't emotionally rape me.
They didn't physically rape me.
(They did BOTH to other people, though.)
They made the deliberate decisions to
value money and property over God's
people, and chose to take any action
they could to keep the money.
There's hundreds of personal accounts
here. Or you can check the audio files
and hear how someone's kid died
because their family chose to leave twi.
The worst of the bunch are still
occupying the highest positions in twi.
That won't change as long as twi exists.
Now don't get me wrong, I am NOT against the ministry, nor do I want it to fall or fail.
Read about all the things they did.
After 10% of them, you may change your mind.
However, the cancer of pride, anger and lust for money and power corrupted many people and that was the welcome wagon to the d.s. realm to rack & ruin the ministry and what I mean by rack & ruin is not just the ministry in it's corporate HQ in Ohio but in it's members in particular. The people like me (and most of you) who were victims of the abuse. It’s terrible, just terrible what has happened but can a phoenix rise from the ashes? I believe it can.
Mathematically speaking, the probability is not zero.
However,
I won't expect it until I do things MORE likely,
like win the Lotto.
I think it is changing because it HAS TO change.
The evidence supports them making the APPEARANCE of change,
wiping clean the OUTSIDE of the cup,
whitewashing the sepulchre,
while leaving the inside of the cup dirty,
the sepulchre full of dead men's bones.
They promise to never again get caught
breaking the law.
When the government can come in and tell you that you’re breaking the LAW, at what point do the leaders figure out that there is more corruption than what meets the eye.
First, the people at the top would have to CARE.
They do not CARE about the corruption.
They are ORIGINATING the corruption.
They LIKE the corruption.
They MAINTAIN the corruption.
Leadership is changing and many have changed.
The people at the top will never ALLOW real reform,
since that means they will have to let go of "their" money.
They may allow lots of TALK about change, and they
may lie through their teeth, but that's appearances.
The current Way Corps is different. They are being trained differently.
The candidates are being drawn from some of the people on the
planet LEAST capable of critical thinking and evaluative study.
(Ask jkboeme-he can explain that one all day-and has.)
The people training them were trained to be LOYAL above
all else. Nobody exists in twi who CAN train properly.
The thought police have been fired and in their absence, the WC is being trained to question and think for themselves.
The thought police run the bod/bot.
THOSE thought police have you convinced they're not thought police.
They DON'T want twi people thinking for themselves.
Have we really come full circle back to “GOD WORKS IN YOU”, instead of “God is working in you only if I (being a leader) recognize God working in you and can fully agree that yes, it is God working in you and it’s not some spiritual mix-up”.
We can never "return" to a place we've never BEEN.
There was an illusion of this,
and there was a reality of it for a few months around 1970.
That lasted until vpw purged out all the people saying that.
(He found them useful before that.)
When LCM said in 1992 that he didn’t get involved in people’s personal lives or their finances because people have to make the Word their own and they answer to God in their heart of hearts, he was right.
He was lying.
He didn't get involved because he had a heart of stone.
He did not CARE about your problems.
He was carefully taught by vpw NOT to care about
anyone's problems.
When he DID care, vpw taught him to STOP caring.
(See the "vp and me in wonderland" thread for
documentation of this happening.)
If they had stayed on that track,
They were never ON that track.
The ministry had wonderful people locally,
some good Bible teaching,
and a bunch of leadership that wouldn't
recognize God's Love if it honked their noses-
starting with vpw.
(See "the way:living in wonderland" thread for
documentation of this.)
Nevertheless, the end of my Saga is that I believe God works in us as we believe HIS Word and as we renew our minds and put off the old man nature.
I would agree in principle.
I would also add that these are not the ONLY way God works with us.
I am IN the ministry because I can hear the voice of God when I draw closer to Him and to His Word and the ministry helps me with that.
Locally, that may be true.
(I don't know your local situation.)
Ministry-wide, that is NOT true,
no matter what they told you.
I give and I take; they give and they take and as long as it stays within the boundaries of what I find acceptable, I will stay but experience has taught me to be warned and to be wary. Sincerity is no guarantee for truth.
I hope you have a good exit plan ready for when (not if) they kick out your
local leader for actually encouraging you to think.
I cannot fathom ministry people believing that *we* all deserved what happened ...like those who were hurt and cast aside some sort of colateral damage in a spiritual hurricane.
That we were being punished..that it was some kind of relief...
(((Lizzy))) hon, were you there? Do you know what was done to us in God`s name? Do you know that we were pure in our hearts and efforts to serve God with everything at our disposal....left no stone unturned in order to help halt the destruction? Do you know that we fought with every fiber of our being to save the ministry and were cast out for our concerns because the leaders didn`t want to change (and yes most are still there)?
You seem to think that we were seduced into leaving ...that some how darkness was served.
Lizzy, I would ask for you to consider something ...please ... if we carry your hurricane analogy to it1s conclusion....N.O> knew three days ahead of time that a cat 5 hurricane was headed for their city....citizens knew that the levies only were good for a cat 3....The residents had 3 days to make a decision....to believe what the radars were showing, to listen to the weathermans forcast.....to heed the leaders asking folks to evacuate....millions heeded the warnings and headed for safety, taking what they could of value with them.
Now for whatever reason...some folks chose to remain in the city...they either didn`t believe the evidence on the radar....didn`t trust the information that the weatherman provided....didn`t want to leave their homes and posessions ... wanted to just wanted to BELIEVE that everything would be ok....
Consequently, they get flattened by the hurricane ...lives are lost....N.O. becomes a wasteland with no power or water to sustain it.
Now the folks with nothing are attempting to survive floating around on pieces of debris fighting for survival.
Would it make ANY sense to blame the people who listened to the warnings and got themselves and families to safety.... for the resultant catastrophy? Could the people who left the city have lessened the impact of the storm one iota by ignoring the evidence and staying...becoming one of the casualties?
Are the people who stayed some how more noble than those who left?
Is it right for the people who stayed through the storm to resent or blame those who were LED to safety?
Consider please that just MAYBE God led any who would heed and follow to safety well in advance of the oncoming hurricane.
Now like twi....the storm strikes...and like N.O. becomes a wasteland.... everything is poisoned....no food no shelter no electricity no water....filled with disease and deadly bacteria....
We who left have formed new lives built new homes in other cities life is very very good......but yet you have the few left in the devistation under the impresssion that we would want to come back....
The ground and water are still contaminated by the pollutants released during the storm....and though the city has been pumped dry....it is still filthy...the levies are still only good for a cat 3 storm....nothing has changed to make it a safer place to be.
Cionsider please the possibility that those who left the doomed city were led to safety by a loving caring God ....
As far as returning.....
Do you have an understanding of what is required biblically of one who has *offended* his brother?
I have not seen any Godly repentance from those in twi who were so cruel.
I have not heard of a single apology issued to the tens of thousands of people who were wrongly M&A `d .
I have not see a single offer of restitution made.
ALL things required when one has wronged his brother biblically.
When I have seen these actions implimented, and see twi beginning to adhere to the standard listed biblically of one who has sinned against their brother... then I might begin to believe that twi is on the path to spiritual wholeness....and consider forgiveness for the brother who has sinned against me.
Post by Thin Lizzy reformatted for easier reading (for me anyway) - you might want to consider breaking it up into paragraphs on future loooong posts
Yes, I am fighting to save the ministry because it saved my life.
It's fine for everybody who wants to walk away and call it over but I can't do it because I remember the agony of the spirit realm.
I was tortured by the spirits in my mind and then suddenly, I was 18 and made a bet with God. For years, I had went to many churches, looked up other organizations, talked to many, many folks about The Bible and I could find no power. I was in seances and there was power. I operated devil spirits and black magic and there was power. I did drugs and dealt drugs and there was power but my heart longed to know God, to be good.
I knew there was spiritual power available on "the dark side" but nothing seemed to evident on the side of God. Fed up, I told God that if He didn't show me His Will and His Word, I was going to kill myself because I was DONE with this world.
Then I got witnessed to and once they kicked out the devil spirits and I could read again (lost the ability to understand or read english during the witnessing encounter, which was a big deal since it was/is my primary language),
I got born again. I spoke in tongues 3 months later.
I had lived with pain for a couple years (from a severe injury) and I took PFAL and got miraculous healing from it during the class. I have seen the lame walk. I have been at death's door. I have been physically mamed by spirits. I know what the world has to offer without the Word of God and I know there are others who are in the same situation.
This ministry saved my life. There are others who need it. I want it to live for those people too.
Okay, so maybe it almost ruined my life too but I found the balance and the desire of my heart in my spouse. God IS good always. I just remember that. God is good ALWAYS.
Thanks for the yummy turkey cookies! Super duper gobbling good! I'll have another round of coffee, if you please.
Oh before I go - Thanks for all the welcoming by the way! I really appreciate it.
I’m not retarded to what the ministry was, became, and now is.
I also was Marked & Avoided when I left the W.C. in the 90's. Boy, was that pretty horrible!
I took the AC 4X and each time it was exhilarating and exhausting. Of course, that was at the Indiana Campus where people stayed on campus the whole class and didn't have to shuffle between the Motels/Hotels which must be pretty awful. I talked to a friend who recently attended (last year) and the schedule was very hectic. Getting committed even one step at a time takes a LOT of time and a LOT of money but I've always believed that people make the time and find the money for what interests them so I guess I always justified to myself that that's what it was for me.
I came back after nearly a decade of absence just a few years ago and found some of the changes disturbing. The Ministry was a LOT like New Orleans after the hurricane, leveled and hurting. Now many Way people would say that spiritually New Orleans brought it on themselves, just like Sodom & Gomorrah and if that is the case, then it could be reasoned that The Way Ministry had the same thing happen to them and were (in that same sense)spiritually deserving of it.
Although we are not supposed to be joyful when bad things happen, at what point can we justify the relief and the true THANK GOD! feeling that we had when the spiritual hurricane leveled The Way ministry. I feel they had it coming and I hope the people who hurt me spent just as much time in tears and in frustration as I did. Now that it’s mostly done and justice has been served, I can move on. I can forgive the emotional rapists because justice was served.
Now don't get me wrong, I am NOT against the ministry, nor do I want it to fall or fail. However, the cancer of pride, anger and lust for money and power corrupted many people and that was the welcome wagon to the d.s. realm to rack & ruin the ministry and what I mean by rack & ruin is not just the ministry in it's corporate HQ in Ohio but in it's members in particular.
The people like me (and most of you) who were victims of the abuse. It’s terrible, just terrible what has happened but can a phoenix rise from the ashes? I believe it can. I think it is changing because it HAS TO change.
When the government can come in and tell you that you’re breaking the LAW, at what point do the leaders figure out that there is more corruption than what meets the eye.
Leadership is changing and many have changed. The current Way Corps is different. They are being trained differently. The thought police have been fired and in their absence, the WC is being trained to question and think for themselves. They are not ½ human, ½ WAYFER cyborg but rather all-heart, all-go people, like I remember them being. People with heart AND confidence – what a combination.
Have we really come full circle back to “GOD WORKS IN YOU”, instead of “God is working in you only if I (being a leader) recognize God working in you and can fully agree that yes, it is God working in you and it’s not some spiritual mix-up”.
When LCM said in 1992 that he didn’t get involved in people’s personal lives or their finances because people have to make the Word their own and they answer to God in their heart of hearts, he was right. If they had stayed on that track, all would have been well but alas, the deception was already weaving and the illusion clarifying and we all know what happened after that.
Nevertheless, the end of my Saga is that I believe God works in us as we believe HIS Word and as we renew our minds and put off the old man nature.
I am IN the ministry because I can hear the voice of God when I draw closer to Him and to His Word and the ministry helps me with that. I give and I take; they give and they take and as long as it stays within the boundaries of what I find acceptable, I will stay but experience has taught me to be warned and to be wary. Sincerity is no guarantee for truth.
I was in seances and there was power. I operated devil spirits and black magic and there was power
What specifically are you talking about here? What kind of power are you referring to? And what power did you see in TWI that outshone the power of "the dark side"?
Edited by Oakspear
"Yes, I am fighting to save the ministry because it saved my life. "
I disagree. An organization does not save a life - an organization is nothing without people. It was the people involved who helped you - many, if not most, of whom are no longer with TWI, if I were to lay bets.
"I had lived with pain for a couple years (from a severe injury) and I took PFAL and got miraculous healing from it during the class. I have seen the lame walk. I have been at death's door. I have been physically mamed by spirits."
And again - it wasn't the organization. It was God and God can be found in many places and works in many people.
"I think it is changing because it HAS TO change. "
If you study the history of TWI you will find it has changed MANY times. It gets harsh, the numbers fall and income drops, so they lighten up and start love bombing again. Then when the big money is rolling in again, they slowly start tightening the noose again.
"The thought police have been fired and in their absence, the WC is being trained to question and think for themselves"
Not in my area. Same old thought police are still running the joint. Same old brain dead followers are following behind like zombies. Nothing much has changed in this area, except there are fewer zombies.
"Have we really come full circle back to “GOD WORKS IN YOU”, instead of “God is working in you only if I (being a leader) recognize God working in you and can fully agree that yes, it is God working in you and it’s not some spiritual mix-up”. "
Don't be so sure that a year or two down the road, the rug won't be pulled out from underneath you again. I've known my share of "old timers" who had a lot of heart and stuck it out through a lot of changes and turmoil. In the end, even they eventually saw the pattern I spoke of above.
The thought police have been fired and in their absence, the WC is being trained to question and think for themselves
Who do you think that the thought police are/were...when were they fired?
As far as I know, the top leadership of TWI at "Headquarters" has remained the same. There were two or threee region coordinators who bolted, and one high profile former region coordinator couple, but everyone else is still in place.
I agree with Morgan. I think a lot of miracles happened because God is so much bigger than we realize. I believe the deliverance I initially received was in spite of twi and due only to God honoring some well-meaning people's desire to love and serve Him. In the long run, twi did more damage to me personally than good.
Also, I listened to this year's twi anniversary tape. gag Did you hear it Thin Lizzy? Did you catch the references made to how twi has taught its followers to get nice cars, college educations and buy houses without going into debt? I know you mentioned you were away for a bit--but I can assure you that those things have NOT really been taught, not if twits are honest with themselves. The most I have heard is that high school kids need to get scholarships to afford college. (Which doesn't help adults who need to get degrees to have decent jobs.) I have heard you should but not the "how-to"
twi seems nicer now--but the control is still there, just more subtle. They know they can't be blatant.
I find your insight on the ministry intresting. Every Quote you made I wanted to comment on has already been commented on by others here in the forums. I guess I got here a bit late, but my friends here at GSCafe are sharp.
I guess what I would like to tell you is that as you know those who hurt you have suffered like you had. I know those who hurt me, my husband, children and broke off a relationship with me and my sister for the past decade have not reformed and are still part of TWI and if they can't come to grips with making amends with there brethren in the past the future brethren are still going to hear there lies, insults and innuendos about the past brethren and why they are not here any longer. You see, it isn't available for everyone to come back ..... some people just know way to much and IMHO TWI can't handle it.
There are no apologies to any of us. To apologize is to admit you were wrong, and then to ask for forgiveness is to start a new way of life with your brethren. Its simple, its easy and if the ministry really wanted to clean up it would start apologizing and making amends with its brethren, that would be the biblical thing to do. There are thousands of us out here that have never so much as had a simple "Im Sorry, we messed up, would you like to help us rebuild."
TWI does not get off that easy, they worked against Gods people and its simply brush the dust of my feet and keep on walking. There are other great people to fellowship with in Gods word. TWI may be a foundational church for some and if thats what your thankful for thats fine, but there are times when churches get corrupt and/or stagnet and then its time to move on to those who still want to learn. No one church knows everything ....... or no one body of believers.
Its kind of Ironic that I am thankful to those people of TWI who taught me to think for myself and how to read and study my bible thats what drew me to TWI in the first place ........... the ironic part comes in that it was also teaching me how to read and study my bible that I knew how far gone TWI was and it was time to walk away as well.
Keep it simple ....... apologize, ask your brother to forgive you and move on. If you can't do this you are wrong.
You see, it isn't available for everyone to come back .....
some people just know way to much and IMHO TWI can't handle it.
Truer words were never spoken. Right on Digi! B)
Short of silencing *re-turnees* who know too much with duct tape, the only other way twi could continue to protect their *reputation* would be to refuse re-admittance.
The ironic thing is..... that *we* the folks that were bullied out..... the people they refuse to let back in, in all likelyhood are the ones who were responsible for the *good* times.....responsible for the good recieved....it was our hot teachings...our great music....our generous service for decades...our financial support that was responsible for the presentation of God and scriptures that aided in your deliverance....
Current twi people are loyal to a group that has mearly assumed the identity, the name and resources of a group of folks that were once a blessing oto them. The folks currently in charge had nothing to do with what was of blessing to them personally in twi.....I garauntee that they are not the ones who loved you, gave you rides, who ministered directly to you....who composed the inspiring music who taught electrifying smack you right between the eyes teachings.....
I`ll bet that the people who witnessed to you, the people who loved you, prayed for you, held you while you cried, steadied you when you were weak......have every one been either bullied and forced out.
The leaders who inhabit twi are nothing more than the bullies who used and cast aside the people who were so instrumental in your blessing .....threw us out like so much garbage when our usefullness was exhausted.....
Do you know why so many of the incredible teachers, artists musicians who`s efforts were such an inspiration to us all can no longer participate??? It is because most came to a point where their personal integrety would no longer allow them to be a cover for the evil being practiced....
That twi is able to convince it`s participants that the current leaders who treated their bretheren with such devistating cruelty, are actually
OWED the loyalty for that which we who have been cast out are directly responsible for....is the cruelest irony of all.
Quote from Rascal: It is because most came to a point where their personal integrity would no longer allow them to be a cover for the evil being practiced....
Very well put, Rascal ... that's exactly what did it for me ... I remember standing at the top of the steps in my home, crying and saying to God, "I'm sorry ... I just can't do this any more." All it took was a talk with a noble and Godly man, yes, a former Way minister, to explain to me that I had no need to be sorry ... that it was "the spirit of God crying out within me" to leave....and I think that's what it was for all of us who left on our own ... God told us it was time to go, yet we perhaps didn't want to because we DID remember the good times and we also had been told the big LIE that there was nothing else out there .. and there is.
If you are still in, think about what has been said about how the ones that are in simply stole the name and the organization -- get out, think for yourself, and realize how wonderful it is to have God as your Father and not have to live by the rules of an unGodly and legalistic organization that spends your money and then spits in your face.
That twi is able to convince it`s participants that the current leaders who treated their bretheren with such devistating cruelty, are actually
OWED the loyalty for that which we who have been cast out are directly responsible for....is the cruelest irony of all.
_______________________________
rascal, i would say that it is not only cruel irony, but disgusting victimization via exploitative packaged persuasion.
_______________________________
toadfriend, i would say the 'good times' that you remember were not due to twi's BOTs/BODs & top leadership {due to corporate twi's bait and switch strategy}, but rather were in spite of them. I think the good times some people remember were due to the presence of genuine pure hearted people amongst the rank and file, with an occasional WC grad willing to buffer the bs for the mere underlings.
Per Oakspear:
This conversation about the Advanced Class got me thinking about how we as wayfers would often be thoroughly and obnoxiously convinced about things we did not understand.
____________________________________
My opinion is that this was standard operating procedure with TWI. When something is presented as though it were logical, when in fact it is not, this is a technique of thought reform designed to produce a daze of reverie and transfixion in order to enhance suggestibility.
"The ironic thing is..... that *we* the folks that were bullied out..... the people they refuse to let back in, in all likelyhood are the ones who were responsible for the *good* times.....responsible for the good recieved....it was our hot teachings...our great music....our generous service for decades...our financial support that was responsible for the presentation of God and scriptures that aided in your deliverance...."
So TRUE RASCAL you nailed it.
We headed our state for several months with no bullies and it was the best time our state ever had. It was great and the new leadership was jealous when they got here. Felt left out and it was all mine and hubbies fault ........ poor babies.
.. but ....... they didn't kick us out just yet ..... even tho jealous ....... we still were assistant coords we paid at least a third of their salary every month ....... don't want to your state financial situation to go down hmm hmm
Ever wonder why VPW would often open the Advanced Class teaching of the ‘revelation manifestations,’ especially ‘word of knowledge’ & ‘word of wisdom,’ with the account in Numbers of the ‘copped out’ Prophet, Baalam? Ever wonder why VPW opened PFAL with “…the thief cometh not but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy…?” I think these would be examples of unconscious projections, in the sense of VPW’s guilty conscience breaking through the bogus teaching to proclaim,
“I, V. P. Wierwille, am not only a copped out hierophant / man of god / apostle in our day, time, & hour, but furthermore I am the embodiment of the hermetic (friendly, mischievious) thief, with the aim of selfishly pleasing myself, even if it means that I steal from you, that I might even have to kill you, or that I may in fact permanently destroy your ability to know God, trust God, love God, or have a personal relationship with Him."
To VPW, it was just an expendable human cost of doing cult business in the cornfield.
QUOTE: i would say the 'good times' that you remember were not due to twi's BOTs/BODs & top leadership {due to corporate twi's bait and switch strategy}, but rather were in spite of them. I think the good times some people remember were due to the presence of genuine pure hearted people amongst the rank and file, with an occasional WC grad willing to buffer the bs for the mere underlings.
Thanks for welcoming me to the Café and apparently, my entry was somewhat misunderstood. I UNDERSTAND that it was GOD who saved my life but HE chose The Way Ministry. Now I don’t know why – I suppose some of you can reason that the same devil spirits who communicated with me during séances communicated through leadership to teach me the Bible and get me to pray so they could reach in my back pocket and grab my wallet but I challenge your angry doctrine of callousness on that level. I believe in my heart that God lead me into the Way ministry and then God lead me out. I didn’t get “kicked out” for the reasons anyone said but I did get kicked out because I didn’t believe in the rhetoric of the Way Ministry anymore. I SAW loving leaders turn into angry, vicious people. Maybe you say they were always that way and I only saw it as I got deeper into it but nay, I knew them before they took the LCM Hyde potion. People DID change in front of my eyes. So I left, was asked to leave but my heart had left months earlier and I was just hanging on because I didn’t have a Plan B. I was around for some of the hurt. I did get pushed aside, humiliated and even had my ABS returned several times. If they only wanted money, how come they didn’t just keep it? No, it was more of an insult to keep sending it back and that was fine because I felt like I was doing what I was taught and if they didn’t want to use my greenbacks to further the ministry work; then they let me off the hook for sending it. So I quit sending it after a while (since I was still out the 29 cents and getting more insulted every time they returned it). I came back a couple times in the late 90’s, early 00’s only to find the water was still freezing or boiling and then stuck my foot in a few years ago and found the temperature more in my climate zone. Maybe the water is deeper than I think and maybe there are alligators waiting just off shore and maybe, just maybe I sense that which is why I won’t get committed by attending the A.C. but for now, the fellowship in my town, in my state is very sweet and my TWIG leadership are just the best. So I’m wading in slowly and thank you for your words of warning. If the shark bites me off at the kneecaps, then at least, I was forewarned. I just wanted to write and say that TWI is NOT going to die, as much as some of you wish it would or has or will. I love the people in my fellowship; they are rockin’ fun and crazy like some of you. Thanks for the replies. I appreciate the “WARNING! Dangerous Curves Ahead!” signs from you but I'm going slow. I think it's a good road still, just got some rocks in it. Thanks again.
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frank123lol
Even though my wife is still in,I cannot and will not ever go back to the "ministry" Itallics are because it does not standfor god or his word,it is a coorporation with one purpose to make money.As such it does not care who is in it (people) as long as they are a warm body in servitude to the coorporation serving it self as it sees fit.
The last ac I attended was the "weekends " three to be exact from hell more like it.When loy said the adultries were spiritual rather than physical I went what the h is up with this since corinthians plainly states
it was of a carnal nature.He loy did not even say it was a allegory what?? I thought the ole boy has been horsing around and is trying to justify his actions.
Ala! ligh@ a limb coordinator of michigan at the time said "If you do not think this is the greatest in the world today you have spiritual problems deep spiritual problems" I almost laughed out loud asI thught has he been smelling what he has been shoveling.
The ac 79 was my best class asit got me to really love the old testament.am i thankful for what I learned? You bet.do I apply what I learnt ?Yes I do.
By the way,thank you all for your replies,since being ou I consider all options,I still believe there are good people in the way same as there are good people in the rc lutherns ect
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diazbro
Okay as far back as 76 I've heard Way leaders use Luke 17:2 as a reference to those who would
turn their backs on their committment to TWI:
"It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."
the first time I heard it, it was a teaching by VPW ,in say 1976, in reference to those who would be ordained as clergy. If those people turned around and left their appointment then VPW was saying that they would encounter an untimely and unpleasant demise. Okay so then later , like in 79 or 80 I heard it taught this verse applies to anyone , ordained or not, who left the WOW field. So they adjusted their "present truth" to scare WOWs into staying on the field. the last I heard of this was maybe 83 or 84 when it was applied to anyone who was thinking of bailing on TWI - that if you did then you were asking for it and this verse was to you from God and that leaving TWI was walking out on your commitment to God so you were knowingly "throwing off" that "hedge of protection". I'm sure that it has been used to scare lots of people into staying. Once the leaders realized that people were disenchanted with the obvious lack of abudncance in their life and in TWI lifestyle in general (except for the top level leaders) then they decided to try to intimidate and spook people. I'm glad to say that I never fell for that crap but then again I left before it became standard behavior.
to rip people a new one everytime they sawa someone.
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Oakspear
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dmiller
Now -- about the quote up above.
twi never saved anyone's life. It is God that does that, not the organization. :)
Sure they shared the Word with you (me too). And yup -- the world has little to offer, but the same can be said of twi. They are competing with the world for your soul, and it isn't on a godly level. :(
I have fond memories of some of my times there;
I hang onto some of the Word I learned there;
But I hate the org for what it is with it's two-fisted taking, two-faced lying, and two-step dancing to get out of the way of any accusations or allegations that would tarnish the goody two-shoe image that exists only in their minds, and in the minds of the blind followers they still have left.
Bramble and Rascal are right --- the good ones are out, and the worst ones are still in, and in control. But you said:
Folks in the wc couldn't think for themselves before they went in??? Huh, new one to me. And I doubt very seriously that rosie and gang are teaching them to come up with questions about twi.
Well -- nuff said. I took AC 79, and had a blast, but I would never go back to twi, regardless of how much they say they have changed.
twi will change, when they are serving ice water in Hell.
David
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Nottawayfer
Ha! I wonder what Mr. L thinks today. He was major supporter of the lunatic during the fog years. Then when he found out the stench of the MOG, he turned. We were told at HQ that the L family was gone and that they owed the trustees apologies. Then we heard they came back, and then they were gone. It was a circus. It's like they disappeared off the face of the earth.
Wayyyyy too weird. Just like the L*lly's.
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WordWolf
As others have said,
GOD saved your life.
Anyone else "below" Jesus Christ in the story is nice but irrelevant.
Give GOD the glory. He used whatever tools were at hand to save your life.
This does NOT mean you owe the TOOLS your life.
Loyalty is good-to a point.
If you wanted me to follow you off a cliff,
you PERSONALLY would have to be beyond exceptional.
(I don't think anyone's that good who's not seated at the right hand of God.)
Quite a number of people were delivered from quite a number of things.
Your story is not completely unique.
Please don't confuse
being delivered DURING PFAL with
being delivered BY PFAL.
As Balaam learned, even a jackass can speak the truth,
but you don't just make him your guru....
Others need deliverance of that type and magnitude-I agree.
You're new around here and really should do some catching-up.
A lot of "old light" around here will be "new light" to you.
There are a LOT of Christians out there who know their stuff.
Some know BETTER than twi's best people.
There are a LOT of Christians who left twi and took their stuff with them.
As far as I know, even the WORST of them is better than twi.
There is a big difference between
"a ministry that has the Word of God"
and a ministry that IS the Word of God.
You were taught-as were most of us-
that NO Christian outside twi is competent spiritually.
This was a lie then, and it's MORE of a lie now,
as there are lots more EX-twi than twi'ers.
You were taught-as were all of us-
that twi had a special pipeline to God.
It was founded by a man receiving special revelation
that was unknown for the last 1800 years or more.
This was a HUGE lie.
twi does NOT resemble the 1st century church.
Read the book of Acts and make comparisons all
the way through.
Acts:
- no centralized authority
-much power
-no verse memorizing
-no talk of money except for specific, one-time events
twi:
-obey leadership or ELSE!
-talk ABOUT power but the leaders never SHOW it; only locals
-intellectual memorizing of teachings ABOUT Scripture
-mandatory 15% of your income which goes to hq and STAYS there
vpw's "special revelation" was that he had books from a handful
of FANTASTIC Christians (and a few others) and didn't tell us
he did. He plagiarized whole books from Bullinger-like
"Are the Dead Alive Now?". He plagiarized Receiving the
Holy Spirit Today, and the entire PFAL class.
The introductions to the White and Orange Books say he
learned it all from God or the Bible as his only textbook
and guidebook. That was a bold-faced lie.
Others here have TAKEN the class he stole-
which is SUPERIOR to PFAL,
and PFAL was better than that horrid WAP thing they're
using now.
GOD saved your life.
Don't swear blind lifelong allegiance to people because of what GOD did.
(Or for any other reason.)
Psst.
You're not the only Christian looking out for those people.
Lots of other Christians are, as well.
Some are among the tens of thousands who escaped twi.
Some never HEARD of twi.
People who learned under BG Leonard, they're FAR better
equipped to help them than anyone who relies on what
twi teaches.
Frankly, the deepest spiritual stuff ever taught-
Advanced class and higher-
demonstrated a LACK of understanding of a number
of things.
Think hard-I'm sure you noticed them and never
asked questions.....
Yes.
God does not deliver people only to beat them down again.
Staying with twi WILL do that, however.
Like myself,
I think you never saw all the REALLY bad stuff.
Look around here-there's eyewitness accounts,
accounts foolishly committed to writing or tape,
and other things. I was VERY shocked to hear
even the lighter stuff.
I can't forgive the emotional rapists.
They didn't emotionally rape me.
They didn't physically rape me.
(They did BOTH to other people, though.)
They made the deliberate decisions to
value money and property over God's
people, and chose to take any action
they could to keep the money.
There's hundreds of personal accounts
here. Or you can check the audio files
and hear how someone's kid died
because their family chose to leave twi.
The worst of the bunch are still
occupying the highest positions in twi.
That won't change as long as twi exists.
Read about all the things they did.
After 10% of them, you may change your mind.
Mathematically speaking, the probability is not zero.
However,
I won't expect it until I do things MORE likely,
like win the Lotto.
The evidence supports them making the APPEARANCE of change,
wiping clean the OUTSIDE of the cup,
whitewashing the sepulchre,
while leaving the inside of the cup dirty,
the sepulchre full of dead men's bones.
They promise to never again get caught
breaking the law.
First, the people at the top would have to CARE.
They do not CARE about the corruption.
They are ORIGINATING the corruption.
They LIKE the corruption.
They MAINTAIN the corruption.
The people at the top will never ALLOW real reform,
since that means they will have to let go of "their" money.
They may allow lots of TALK about change, and they
may lie through their teeth, but that's appearances.
The candidates are being drawn from some of the people on the
planet LEAST capable of critical thinking and evaluative study.
(Ask jkboeme-he can explain that one all day-and has.)
The people training them were trained to be LOYAL above
all else. Nobody exists in twi who CAN train properly.
The thought police run the bod/bot.
THOSE thought police have you convinced they're not thought police.
They DON'T want twi people thinking for themselves.
We can never "return" to a place we've never BEEN.
There was an illusion of this,
and there was a reality of it for a few months around 1970.
That lasted until vpw purged out all the people saying that.
(He found them useful before that.)
He was lying.
He didn't get involved because he had a heart of stone.
He did not CARE about your problems.
He was carefully taught by vpw NOT to care about
anyone's problems.
When he DID care, vpw taught him to STOP caring.
(See the "vp and me in wonderland" thread for
documentation of this happening.)
They were never ON that track.
The ministry had wonderful people locally,
some good Bible teaching,
and a bunch of leadership that wouldn't
recognize God's Love if it honked their noses-
starting with vpw.
(See "the way:living in wonderland" thread for
documentation of this.)
I would agree in principle.
I would also add that these are not the ONLY way God works with us.
Locally, that may be true.
(I don't know your local situation.)
Ministry-wide, that is NOT true,
no matter what they told you.
I hope you have a good exit plan ready for when (not if) they kick out your
local leader for actually encouraging you to think.
If not, and you get stuck,
you can always post here and ask for advice.
We've been at this for years.
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rascal
I cannot fathom ministry people believing that *we* all deserved what happened ...like those who were hurt and cast aside some sort of colateral damage in a spiritual hurricane.
That we were being punished..that it was some kind of relief...
(((Lizzy))) hon, were you there? Do you know what was done to us in God`s name? Do you know that we were pure in our hearts and efforts to serve God with everything at our disposal....left no stone unturned in order to help halt the destruction? Do you know that we fought with every fiber of our being to save the ministry and were cast out for our concerns because the leaders didn`t want to change (and yes most are still there)?
You seem to think that we were seduced into leaving ...that some how darkness was served.
Lizzy, I would ask for you to consider something ...please ... if we carry your hurricane analogy to it1s conclusion....N.O> knew three days ahead of time that a cat 5 hurricane was headed for their city....citizens knew that the levies only were good for a cat 3....The residents had 3 days to make a decision....to believe what the radars were showing, to listen to the weathermans forcast.....to heed the leaders asking folks to evacuate....millions heeded the warnings and headed for safety, taking what they could of value with them.
Now for whatever reason...some folks chose to remain in the city...they either didn`t believe the evidence on the radar....didn`t trust the information that the weatherman provided....didn`t want to leave their homes and posessions ... wanted to just wanted to BELIEVE that everything would be ok....
Consequently, they get flattened by the hurricane ...lives are lost....N.O. becomes a wasteland with no power or water to sustain it.
Now the folks with nothing are attempting to survive floating around on pieces of debris fighting for survival.
Would it make ANY sense to blame the people who listened to the warnings and got themselves and families to safety.... for the resultant catastrophy? Could the people who left the city have lessened the impact of the storm one iota by ignoring the evidence and staying...becoming one of the casualties?
Are the people who stayed some how more noble than those who left?
Is it right for the people who stayed through the storm to resent or blame those who were LED to safety?
Consider please that just MAYBE God led any who would heed and follow to safety well in advance of the oncoming hurricane.
Now like twi....the storm strikes...and like N.O. becomes a wasteland.... everything is poisoned....no food no shelter no electricity no water....filled with disease and deadly bacteria....
We who left have formed new lives built new homes in other cities life is very very good......but yet you have the few left in the devistation under the impresssion that we would want to come back....
The ground and water are still contaminated by the pollutants released during the storm....and though the city has been pumped dry....it is still filthy...the levies are still only good for a cat 3 storm....nothing has changed to make it a safer place to be.
Cionsider please the possibility that those who left the doomed city were led to safety by a loving caring God ....
As far as returning.....
Do you have an understanding of what is required biblically of one who has *offended* his brother?
I have not seen any Godly repentance from those in twi who were so cruel.
I have not heard of a single apology issued to the tens of thousands of people who were wrongly M&A `d .
I have not see a single offer of restitution made.
ALL things required when one has wronged his brother biblically.
When I have seen these actions implimented, and see twi beginning to adhere to the standard listed biblically of one who has sinned against their brother... then I might begin to believe that twi is on the path to spiritual wholeness....and consider forgiveness for the brother who has sinned against me.
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Oakspear
Post by Thin Lizzy reformatted for easier reading (for me anyway) - you might want to consider breaking it up into paragraphs on future loooong posts
Yes, I am fighting to save the ministry because it saved my life.
It's fine for everybody who wants to walk away and call it over but I can't do it because I remember the agony of the spirit realm.
I was tortured by the spirits in my mind and then suddenly, I was 18 and made a bet with God. For years, I had went to many churches, looked up other organizations, talked to many, many folks about The Bible and I could find no power. I was in seances and there was power. I operated devil spirits and black magic and there was power. I did drugs and dealt drugs and there was power but my heart longed to know God, to be good.
I knew there was spiritual power available on "the dark side" but nothing seemed to evident on the side of God. Fed up, I told God that if He didn't show me His Will and His Word, I was going to kill myself because I was DONE with this world.
Then I got witnessed to and once they kicked out the devil spirits and I could read again (lost the ability to understand or read english during the witnessing encounter, which was a big deal since it was/is my primary language),
I got born again. I spoke in tongues 3 months later.
I had lived with pain for a couple years (from a severe injury) and I took PFAL and got miraculous healing from it during the class. I have seen the lame walk. I have been at death's door. I have been physically mamed by spirits. I know what the world has to offer without the Word of God and I know there are others who are in the same situation.
This ministry saved my life. There are others who need it. I want it to live for those people too.
Okay, so maybe it almost ruined my life too but I found the balance and the desire of my heart in my spouse. God IS good always. I just remember that. God is good ALWAYS.
Thanks for the yummy turkey cookies! Super duper gobbling good! I'll have another round of coffee, if you please.
Oh before I go - Thanks for all the welcoming by the way! I really appreciate it.
I’m not retarded to what the ministry was, became, and now is.
I also was Marked & Avoided when I left the W.C. in the 90's. Boy, was that pretty horrible!
I took the AC 4X and each time it was exhilarating and exhausting. Of course, that was at the Indiana Campus where people stayed on campus the whole class and didn't have to shuffle between the Motels/Hotels which must be pretty awful. I talked to a friend who recently attended (last year) and the schedule was very hectic. Getting committed even one step at a time takes a LOT of time and a LOT of money but I've always believed that people make the time and find the money for what interests them so I guess I always justified to myself that that's what it was for me.
I came back after nearly a decade of absence just a few years ago and found some of the changes disturbing. The Ministry was a LOT like New Orleans after the hurricane, leveled and hurting. Now many Way people would say that spiritually New Orleans brought it on themselves, just like Sodom & Gomorrah and if that is the case, then it could be reasoned that The Way Ministry had the same thing happen to them and were (in that same sense)spiritually deserving of it.
Although we are not supposed to be joyful when bad things happen, at what point can we justify the relief and the true THANK GOD! feeling that we had when the spiritual hurricane leveled The Way ministry. I feel they had it coming and I hope the people who hurt me spent just as much time in tears and in frustration as I did. Now that it’s mostly done and justice has been served, I can move on. I can forgive the emotional rapists because justice was served.
Now don't get me wrong, I am NOT against the ministry, nor do I want it to fall or fail. However, the cancer of pride, anger and lust for money and power corrupted many people and that was the welcome wagon to the d.s. realm to rack & ruin the ministry and what I mean by rack & ruin is not just the ministry in it's corporate HQ in Ohio but in it's members in particular.
The people like me (and most of you) who were victims of the abuse. It’s terrible, just terrible what has happened but can a phoenix rise from the ashes? I believe it can. I think it is changing because it HAS TO change.
When the government can come in and tell you that you’re breaking the LAW, at what point do the leaders figure out that there is more corruption than what meets the eye.
Leadership is changing and many have changed. The current Way Corps is different. They are being trained differently. The thought police have been fired and in their absence, the WC is being trained to question and think for themselves. They are not ½ human, ½ WAYFER cyborg but rather all-heart, all-go people, like I remember them being. People with heart AND confidence – what a combination.
Have we really come full circle back to “GOD WORKS IN YOU”, instead of “God is working in you only if I (being a leader) recognize God working in you and can fully agree that yes, it is God working in you and it’s not some spiritual mix-up”.
When LCM said in 1992 that he didn’t get involved in people’s personal lives or their finances because people have to make the Word their own and they answer to God in their heart of hearts, he was right. If they had stayed on that track, all would have been well but alas, the deception was already weaving and the illusion clarifying and we all know what happened after that.
Nevertheless, the end of my Saga is that I believe God works in us as we believe HIS Word and as we renew our minds and put off the old man nature.
I am IN the ministry because I can hear the voice of God when I draw closer to Him and to His Word and the ministry helps me with that. I give and I take; they give and they take and as long as it stays within the boundaries of what I find acceptable, I will stay but experience has taught me to be warned and to be wary. Sincerity is no guarantee for truth.
Keep your stick on the ice!
Happy Thanksgiving!
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dmiller
Thanks Oak!! :)
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Oakspear
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Morgan
"Yes, I am fighting to save the ministry because it saved my life. "
I disagree. An organization does not save a life - an organization is nothing without people. It was the people involved who helped you - many, if not most, of whom are no longer with TWI, if I were to lay bets.
"I had lived with pain for a couple years (from a severe injury) and I took PFAL and got miraculous healing from it during the class. I have seen the lame walk. I have been at death's door. I have been physically mamed by spirits."
And again - it wasn't the organization. It was God and God can be found in many places and works in many people.
"I think it is changing because it HAS TO change. "
If you study the history of TWI you will find it has changed MANY times. It gets harsh, the numbers fall and income drops, so they lighten up and start love bombing again. Then when the big money is rolling in again, they slowly start tightening the noose again.
"The thought police have been fired and in their absence, the WC is being trained to question and think for themselves"
Not in my area. Same old thought police are still running the joint. Same old brain dead followers are following behind like zombies. Nothing much has changed in this area, except there are fewer zombies.
"Have we really come full circle back to “GOD WORKS IN YOU”, instead of “God is working in you only if I (being a leader) recognize God working in you and can fully agree that yes, it is God working in you and it’s not some spiritual mix-up”. "
Don't be so sure that a year or two down the road, the rug won't be pulled out from underneath you again. I've known my share of "old timers" who had a lot of heart and stuck it out through a lot of changes and turmoil. In the end, even they eventually saw the pattern I spoke of above.
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Oakspear
As far as I know, the top leadership of TWI at "Headquarters" has remained the same. There were two or threee region coordinators who bolted, and one high profile former region coordinator couple, but everyone else is still in place.
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penguin
I agree with Morgan. I think a lot of miracles happened because God is so much bigger than we realize. I believe the deliverance I initially received was in spite of twi and due only to God honoring some well-meaning people's desire to love and serve Him. In the long run, twi did more damage to me personally than good.
Also, I listened to this year's twi anniversary tape.
gag Did you hear it Thin Lizzy? Did you catch the references made to how twi has taught its followers to get nice cars, college educations and buy houses without going into debt? I know you mentioned you were away for a bit--but I can assure you that those things have NOT really been taught, not if twits are honest with themselves. The most I have heard is that high school kids need to get scholarships to afford college. (Which doesn't help adults who need to get degrees to have decent jobs.) I have heard you should but not the "how-to"
twi seems nicer now--but the control is still there, just more subtle. They know they can't be blatant.
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What The Hey
So the only reason some people are still involved is because they believe that the Return of the Jedi is going to happen?
Well hey - if the dark side gets you cool looking yellow eyes and a purple lightsaber , I'd go over!
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Digitalis
Welcome Thin Lizzy,
I find your insight on the ministry intresting. Every Quote you made I wanted to comment on has already been commented on by others here in the forums. I guess I got here a bit late, but my friends here at GSCafe are sharp.
I guess what I would like to tell you is that as you know those who hurt you have suffered like you had. I know those who hurt me, my husband, children and broke off a relationship with me and my sister for the past decade have not reformed and are still part of TWI and if they can't come to grips with making amends with there brethren in the past the future brethren are still going to hear there lies, insults and innuendos about the past brethren and why they are not here any longer. You see, it isn't available for everyone to come back ..... some people just know way to much and IMHO TWI can't handle it.
There are no apologies to any of us. To apologize is to admit you were wrong, and then to ask for forgiveness is to start a new way of life with your brethren. Its simple, its easy and if the ministry really wanted to clean up it would start apologizing and making amends with its brethren, that would be the biblical thing to do. There are thousands of us out here that have never so much as had a simple "Im Sorry, we messed up, would you like to help us rebuild."
TWI does not get off that easy, they worked against Gods people and its simply brush the dust of my feet and keep on walking. There are other great people to fellowship with in Gods word. TWI may be a foundational church for some and if thats what your thankful for thats fine, but there are times when churches get corrupt and/or stagnet and then its time to move on to those who still want to learn. No one church knows everything ....... or no one body of believers.
Its kind of Ironic that I am thankful to those people of TWI who taught me to think for myself and how to read and study my bible thats what drew me to TWI in the first place ........... the ironic part comes in that it was also teaching me how to read and study my bible that I knew how far gone TWI was and it was time to walk away as well.
Keep it simple ....... apologize, ask your brother to forgive you and move on. If you can't do this you are wrong.
Digi
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
apologize those two faced bums?
i doubt it
buy yeah they sure owe me one
i have apologized to those i hurt because i was told to come down on them from higher up
thank god they are still my friends
but don't hold your breath waiting for an apology comming from the great corn field in beautiful ohio
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dmiller
Truer words were never spoken. Right on Digi! B)
Short of silencing *re-turnees* who know too much with duct tape, the only other way twi could continue to protect their *reputation* would be to refuse re-admittance.
What a shame, eh? :(
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rascal
The ironic thing is..... that *we* the folks that were bullied out..... the people they refuse to let back in, in all likelyhood are the ones who were responsible for the *good* times.....responsible for the good recieved....it was our hot teachings...our great music....our generous service for decades...our financial support that was responsible for the presentation of God and scriptures that aided in your deliverance....
Current twi people are loyal to a group that has mearly assumed the identity, the name and resources of a group of folks that were once a blessing oto them. The folks currently in charge had nothing to do with what was of blessing to them personally in twi.....I garauntee that they are not the ones who loved you, gave you rides, who ministered directly to you....who composed the inspiring music who taught electrifying smack you right between the eyes teachings.....
I`ll bet that the people who witnessed to you, the people who loved you, prayed for you, held you while you cried, steadied you when you were weak......have every one been either bullied and forced out.
The leaders who inhabit twi are nothing more than the bullies who used and cast aside the people who were so instrumental in your blessing .....threw us out like so much garbage when our usefullness was exhausted.....
Do you know why so many of the incredible teachers, artists musicians who`s efforts were such an inspiration to us all can no longer participate??? It is because most came to a point where their personal integrety would no longer allow them to be a cover for the evil being practiced....
That twi is able to convince it`s participants that the current leaders who treated their bretheren with such devistating cruelty, are actually
OWED the loyalty for that which we who have been cast out are directly responsible for....is the cruelest irony of all.
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ToadFriend
Quote from Rascal: It is because most came to a point where their personal integrity would no longer allow them to be a cover for the evil being practiced....
Very well put, Rascal ... that's exactly what did it for me ... I remember standing at the top of the steps in my home, crying and saying to God, "I'm sorry ... I just can't do this any more." All it took was a talk with a noble and Godly man, yes, a former Way minister, to explain to me that I had no need to be sorry ... that it was "the spirit of God crying out within me" to leave....and I think that's what it was for all of us who left on our own ... God told us it was time to go, yet we perhaps didn't want to because we DID remember the good times and we also had been told the big LIE that there was nothing else out there .. and there is.
If you are still in, think about what has been said about how the ones that are in simply stole the name and the organization -- get out, think for yourself, and realize how wonderful it is to have God as your Father and not have to live by the rules of an unGodly and legalistic organization that spends your money and then spits in your face.
TF
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jkboehme
Per rascal:
_______________________________
rascal, i would say that it is not only cruel irony, but disgusting victimization via exploitative packaged persuasion.
_______________________________
toadfriend, i would say the 'good times' that you remember were not due to twi's BOTs/BODs & top leadership {due to corporate twi's bait and switch strategy}, but rather were in spite of them. I think the good times some people remember were due to the presence of genuine pure hearted people amongst the rank and file, with an occasional WC grad willing to buffer the bs for the mere underlings.
Per Oakspear:
____________________________________
My opinion is that this was standard operating procedure with TWI. When something is presented as though it were logical, when in fact it is not, this is a technique of thought reform designed to produce a daze of reverie and transfixion in order to enhance suggestibility.
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Digitalis
RASCAL SAID
"The ironic thing is..... that *we* the folks that were bullied out..... the people they refuse to let back in, in all likelyhood are the ones who were responsible for the *good* times.....responsible for the good recieved....it was our hot teachings...our great music....our generous service for decades...our financial support that was responsible for the presentation of God and scriptures that aided in your deliverance...."
So TRUE RASCAL you nailed it.
We headed our state for several months with no bullies and it was the best time our state ever had. It was great and the new leadership was jealous when they got here. Felt left out and it was all mine and hubbies fault ........ poor babies.
.. but ....... they didn't kick us out just yet ..... even tho jealous ....... we still were assistant coords we paid at least a third of their salary every month ....... don't want to your state financial situation to go down hmm hmm
Digi
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jkboehme
Ever wonder why VPW would often open the Advanced Class teaching of the ‘revelation manifestations,’ especially ‘word of knowledge’ & ‘word of wisdom,’ with the account in Numbers of the ‘copped out’ Prophet, Baalam? Ever wonder why VPW opened PFAL with “…the thief cometh not but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy…?” I think these would be examples of unconscious projections, in the sense of VPW’s guilty conscience breaking through the bogus teaching to proclaim,
“I, V. P. Wierwille, am not only a copped out hierophant / man of god / apostle in our day, time, & hour, but furthermore I am the embodiment of the hermetic (friendly, mischievious) thief, with the aim of selfishly pleasing myself, even if it means that I steal from you, that I might even have to kill you, or that I may in fact permanently destroy your ability to know God, trust God, love God, or have a personal relationship with Him."
To VPW, it was just an expendable human cost of doing cult business in the cornfield.
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ToadFriend
QUOTE: i would say the 'good times' that you remember were not due to twi's BOTs/BODs & top leadership {due to corporate twi's bait and switch strategy}, but rather were in spite of them. I think the good times some people remember were due to the presence of genuine pure hearted people amongst the rank and file, with an occasional WC grad willing to buffer the bs for the mere underlings.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, I agree totally ... I never meant to indicate otherwise.
TF
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Thin Lizzy
Thanks for welcoming me to the Café and apparently, my entry was somewhat misunderstood. I UNDERSTAND that it was GOD who saved my life but HE chose The Way Ministry. Now I don’t know why – I suppose some of you can reason that the same devil spirits who communicated with me during séances communicated through leadership to teach me the Bible and get me to pray so they could reach in my back pocket and grab my wallet but I challenge your angry doctrine of callousness on that level. I believe in my heart that God lead me into the Way ministry and then God lead me out. I didn’t get “kicked out” for the reasons anyone said but I did get kicked out because I didn’t believe in the rhetoric of the Way Ministry anymore. I SAW loving leaders turn into angry, vicious people. Maybe you say they were always that way and I only saw it as I got deeper into it but nay, I knew them before they took the LCM Hyde potion. People DID change in front of my eyes. So I left, was asked to leave but my heart had left months earlier and I was just hanging on because I didn’t have a Plan B. I was around for some of the hurt. I did get pushed aside, humiliated and even had my ABS returned several times. If they only wanted money, how come they didn’t just keep it? No, it was more of an insult to keep sending it back and that was fine because I felt like I was doing what I was taught and if they didn’t want to use my greenbacks to further the ministry work; then they let me off the hook for sending it. So I quit sending it after a while (since I was still out the 29 cents and getting more insulted every time they returned it). I came back a couple times in the late 90’s, early 00’s only to find the water was still freezing or boiling and then stuck my foot in a few years ago and found the temperature more in my climate zone. Maybe the water is deeper than I think and maybe there are alligators waiting just off shore and maybe, just maybe I sense that which is why I won’t get committed by attending the A.C. but for now, the fellowship in my town, in my state is very sweet and my TWIG leadership are just the best. So I’m wading in slowly and thank you for your words of warning. If the shark bites me off at the kneecaps, then at least, I was forewarned. I just wanted to write and say that TWI is NOT going to die, as much as some of you wish it would or has or will. I love the people in my fellowship; they are rockin’ fun and crazy like some of you. Thanks for the replies. I appreciate the “WARNING! Dangerous Curves Ahead!” signs from you but I'm going slow. I think it's a good road still, just got some rocks in it. Thanks again.
Lizzy Over and Out
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