There were also dire consequences in the wake of David's sin. He was severely limited in several areas. Moses' sin carried dire consequences too.
But the consequences that did NOT occur to neither David nor Solomon nor Moses was the negation of the valid revelations they did put into written form.
[see, Mike doesn't care about ANY consequences except ONE:
Whether a man of God can SIN and SIN,
and then be counted on to write Scripture.
That's why Mike fixates on David and tries to add all kinds of things to his
story to try to make it resemble vpw's life.]
***
And this talk about David repenting and Dr not... who here has any handle on the repenting or non-repenting of any other human being in the world besides themselves? I'd like to know how they can peer into the heart of another human, ESPECIALLY 20 years after the death of the subject.
[That's easy.
You look at the life of the person FOLLOWING the incident,
and what they do over the long run.
As was already pointed out ABOVE,
I Kings 15:5
"Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD,
and
turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the
days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite."
I take it God Almighty is considered an EXPERT WITNESS
in the subject of "people's hearts",
and his EXPERT TESTIMONY is that David
DID NOT SIN
after that.
Mike's speculations on David have CONTINUED to
CONTRADICT the EXPERT TESTIMONY of GOD ALMIGHTY.
When considering who to believe,
I pick GOD ALMIGHTY
over Mike the human
anytime.
Compare this to vpw, whom, we have many, many, many
eyewitness and VICTIM accounts,
lived a life of sin and made arrangements to FACILITATE
(make it easier to) sin.
Need I go into that all over again?
Mike's been missing that for YEARS already....]
There's a lot of money in it for applications in the polygraph/security field, not to mention show business and a lot of other fields.
***
[If God ever needs some extra cash,
I'll let Him know He has options. ]
God knew of David's sin before he committed it, yet He entrusted His Word to him anyway. Anyone want to tell God He made a mistake there?
***
[Ah, the famous "if God knew something bad would happen,
and didn't stop it, He must have approved" straw man.
I thought we stomped this into the ground in the early 1990s.
Apparently not.
Look-
God allows man free-will.
Period.
Don't like it? Take it up with God. ]
That's all I have time for. I see WW can't let go of his diatribe on me. I think I will let it go.
I trust PFAL to be God-breathed, and I have abundant documentation (and can supply it) of Dr saying this is what we are supposed to think about them. If he's wrong I'm going down with that ship.
Yikes, man! Is there no end to your lying about me?!!!
[When in doubt, throw a name and accuse the person of being a liar.
Mike's on-schedule again....]
Again you lie. You wrote: "I said Mike's premise in 2002 was that the pfal books were derived by divine dictation..."
[As shown in the posts from 1/1/03, this was STILL on his mind,
if not defended in excrutiating detail.
I said that was his INITIAL position-Divine Dictation.
Then, when it was shown to be INDEFENSIBLE-
which I showed with quotes-
he CHANGED to the new tactic-
Plagiarism Ordered by God Almighty.
Those who read a page back saw the Divine Dictation
was already shown to be INDEFENSIBLE,
which is why LATER posts reflect a
"moving of the goalposts"
and a change to the new tactic,
and pretending the old one never happened.]
It has ALWAYS been my position here and for many years that it was NOT generally by divine dictation that the scriptures and PFAL were given.
[ignoring the deleted posts,
the ones I quoted showed you posting OTHERWISE.
Other readers might try READING them.
I'd recommend YOU reading them,
but you never read what you don't LIKE,
even if it's 100% truthful.]
I have posted how Dr says this in the Thess Univ of Life tapes when he hits the first verses of each of the two epistles.
[After CHANGING YOUR POSITION, sure, you made all sorts of arguments for
the God-said-to-plagiarize-it stuff. They were wrong and error, but
you DID say it.]
You ARE confused.
[No, I can just read the difference when a "goalpost-change"
is in effect.
Plus, people CAN change their minds when new information
has arrived.
Frankly, if you admitted you were wrong in the FIRST
place then changed positions,
I wouldn't make the same fuss I'm making for you
re-writing history.
What do you think this is-politics?]
Shall I find the posts to prove you are dead wrong?
[if they're still on record HERE, SURE.
If they're in your personal files, I wouldn't trust YOUR
word on who won the Superbowl.]
What kind of repentance do you promise when I do produce such evidence? Hmmmmmmm? What are you going to do when I produce an abundance of posts that prove you wrong? Probably nothing.
[if you can produce ANY, we'll see.]
***
Here I did a quick search of this board and my prune surviving posts. I looked up "dictation" and filtered it with "Mike."
Look what I found right off the bat on page 11 of the thread here named "Dr's Last Teaching - LOST for 17 Years!" on page 11
*******
Mike Jan 1 2003, 11:53 PM Post #201
"Written revelation doesn't have to be all divine dictation. In fact, in the Thessalonians University of Life, Dr TWICE mentions in covering verse 1:1 for both of these epistles, that there is a reason why there are three names mentioned as authors: Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy. At these two points Dr teaches that written revelation is usually NOT divine dictation, but first the revelation to Paul was discussed between the three, and then later put into written form. In I Peter 1:20-21 we see the WRITTEN scripture mentioned in verse 20 as coming from a process where (next verse) holy men of God SPAKE.
"It's easy to see that God could have utilized Bullinger's work to get Dr to the point of hearing a revelation of “Vic, Bullinger got it right here.†Additionally, these selected passages of Bullinger may have ALSO been given by revelation, or maybe only portions of them. There's lots of permutations that can be involved."
*******
Sorry for the screwed up punctuation. That happened long ago when threads were moved to different forums. It would be nice to get them corrected someday.
*******
[Try reading that CLOSER.
The first paragraph says nothing about whether Divine Dictation
is in effect EVER,
nor does it show your position on VP and Divine Dictation.
The second paragraph throws out POSSIBILITIES,
and posits vpw reading Bullinger and then
GETTING REVELATION.
It also throws out the possibility
Bullinger was using Divine Dictation there.
So, Bullinger may have used Divine Dictation-which YOU suggested-
OR vpw may have gotten Divine Dictation
after reading Bullinger.
In this case, Bullinger would be incidental-
vpw could get Divine Dictation after reading Green Lantern.]
Here's another onefrom "The Ubiquitously Hidden Teaching of VPW" page 65
Mike Posted on: Jun 19 2003, 06:54 PM
[ No need to read FURTHER.
Everyone can tell that JUNE 19 is more than six months AFTER
January 1st.
Your post 1/1/03 supported Divine Dictation.
I already SAID you CHANGED positions later.
If this post shows a CHANGE of POSITIONS,
you support my initial post-
which you made a major case out of and called me a
LIAR about.
(Right after you admitted the evidence was deleted)]
"Goey,
"Just to fluff things up a bit: it appears like you hold to the 'divine dictation' model of Scriptural revelation and inspiration.
"Written revelation doesn't HAVE to be all divine dictation. In fact, in the Thessalonians University of Life, Dr TWICE mentions in covering verse 1:1 for both of these epistles, that there is a reason why there are three names mentioned as authors: Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy. At these two points Dr teaches that written revelation is usually NOT divine dictation, but first the revelation to Paul was discussed between the three, and then later put into written form. In I Peter 1:20-21 we see the WRITTEN scripture mentioned in verse 20 as coming from a process where (next verse) holy men of God SPAKE."
*******
[Yep.
1/1/03, Mike supported Divine Dictation.
6/19/03, Mike no longer supported Divine Dictation.
That's what I said INITIALLY.
*checks page 4 of this same thread*
Yep, it's still there in a few of my posts.
Mike insisted on making a federal case on it,
and used the absence of destroyed evidence
(which meant he THOUGHT all the proof was GONE)
to try to rewrite history-AGAIN.
We can see it right on this here thread.
1/1, Mike supports Divine Dictation.
6/19, Mike no longer supports Divine Dictation.
He held one position, then CHANGED it and
claimed he never changed it.
WordWolf was right the FIRST time.
Despite most of the evidence being
destroyed.
It's in plain English,
AND anyone who really wants to check can
look up the posts themselves. (Be my guest.)
Here's a hint:
I don't waste that much time only to manufacture
stuff that can be proven wrong later.
Among everyone except Mikeans,
I have built a reputation for integrity,
which is worth more than just proving Mike
lied at any point. ]
WW, are you pulling my chain, deliberately trying to waste my time, or are you just unusually sloppy? I have posted much on NOT accepting the divine dictation model. You are massively confused.
[Mike, my initial point stands. You changed positions,
and AFTER changing positions, repudiated the Divine Dictation
model. You then updated your brain and retroactively changed
your position in your MIND, but are unable to rewrite history
for the REST of us. It's the same tactic you use when you
periodically post on how you've outwitted all of us.
Well, in your mind you did, but that's after rewriting
history for yourself. We don't follow along when you do
that.
Sorry-
vpw was able to rewrite history-
eventually, we started catching it.
Mike was caught before he got far....]
I started posting on Christmas day 2002.
[Merry Christmas.
The missing threads, of course, stretch closer to the present than
1/1/03, and include more discussion on same.
Of course, neither your factlet nor mine have any
relevance to anything. ]
**************
oldiesman,
You wrote: "Because if it is available for me to master PFAL, I want to know exactly when I have attained that mastery. ___ Saying that we should master PFAL, but not being able to tell when we have actually attained that mastery, is like Chris Geer saying we need to "get back on the Word." ___Too aloof."
So you don't accept the lifetime model, yet I'll bet you do feel that an open ended mastering program of your KJV (or other versions) for a lifetime is ok. Am I right?
How about this: You know when you've mastered PFAL enough when you can operate the revelations manifestations well enough to get correct phone numbers from God.... or when you can hear Him tell you that's enough.... or when ..... Oh I give up. I think you are the aloof one here.
[Told you Mike would never give a clear, unambiguous answer.
If he did, and you satisfied it, and it STILL didn't work,
he'd be unable to "move the goalposts" and claim you
never REALLY "mastered pfal".
It's the same tactic when his supposed "law" of believing
fails most of the time. Excuse after excuse is dragged in
to attempt to conceal the failure of a so-called "law".
Plus, Mike would be unable to just tell you stuff and have
you take orders if you were on the SAME level or
HIGHER than him....
I honestly tried before to help him crystallize his doctrine into
something clear and unambiguous that others could either
accept or reject as they saw fit.
Mike still insisted on vagueness, on being able to reinterpret
things later to suit him.
Mike will change when the leopard changes his spots.]
I see that Ahithophel was Bathsheba's grandfather (took a little digging), but I do not see that he knew anything about what had happened prior to Uriah's death. If there's something there, could you point me to it?
A little speculation, and maybe Ahithophel did some math, calculating the time between David's marriage to Bathsheba and the birth of Solomon, realizing it was less than nine months. But I don't see anything explicit enough to support "he made sure everybody knew."
Although I'm disappointed with you on the open ended mastery objection/excuse, I do thank you for your later two posts. Nice.
Couldn't you, yourself, come up with a suitable endpoint for mastery? Come on, I know you can do it.
I really wouldn't know.
VP said we should master PFAL, and so I suppose VP should also have told us exactly what that meant, how to do it, and at what point the mastery was accomplished?
I thought that perhaps God told YOU this Mike...that was one reason why I asked.
I brought up the Uriah family to illustrate a case similar to your statements about leaving a man of God who screws up.
["If a man of God KEEPS SINNING, he can STILL write HOLY SCRIPTURE."
That's Mike's target.
Of course,
this doesn't apply to David,
since it says in I Kings 15:5
"Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and
turned not aside from any thing that He commanded him all the days
of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite."
However, Mike will keep skipping things like the Bible when
it comes to doctrine, and the actual verses when it comes to
discussing David, because then he'd have to account for the
discrepancy between his tales and the Bible's accounts...]
Regardless of their feelings against David the RIGHT thing for them to do was to accept the authority and revelations God gave to David in spite of their feelings. God still worked with David in spite of his sin and He expected all Israel to do the same. John Scheonheit wrote a Way Magazine article on this situation in the early 80's.
I'm quite sure everyone knew about David's sin,
["Private interpretation. NO verse has been presented to
support this claim.
I might make an equally strong claim that they were
taking contemporary drugs. There's nothing to support
such a claim in Scripture.
Further, invoking the name of a writer or an article means
NOTHING.
A) The article may have error.
B) Mike may be hallucinating all over the article and
engaging in "private interpretation", completely
changing the meaning of the article.
We've seen him do that with quotes from the Orange
Book before.
When invoking a source-which we told him 6 months
ago when he said this before and I predicted he'd
claim this again in 6 months-
you need to provide the quote.
Mike's had 6 months to produce an actual quote,
but is unable or unwilling to do so.
(When I was challenged, I produced a quote
within 2-3 days. See the difference between
MY style and Mike's style?) ]
especially after he was confronted on it.
[still nothing except speculation,
"private interpretation." If you have something
supporting this, let's see it. ]
Bathsheba knew who knocked her up,
[DUUUUUUUHHHH]
and we are asked by a sloppy researcher
[ When trying to conceal one's OWN deficiencies, insult the
person with a stronger case. Another Mikean standard tactic.]
here that after getting pregnant AND after hearing of Uriah's death
AND after hearing of David's confrontation that she kept her mouth shut?
OOOOOOOOkay? sure...
[Mike, of course, skipped the obvious-
that she knew David was willing to kill an innocent man to
conceal his SIN and his REPUTATION.
(Sorta like kicking someone off-grounds within the hour and
telling everyone never to communicate with them
because they were possessed. Hm. That sounds familiar.)
If you were the sole witness to a crime,
and ALL the authorities were in the pocket of the CRIMINAL,
and there was NO authority to appeal to-media, government-
and the criminal had a history of killing INNOCENTS
to cover his tracks,
AND, if the details came out,
you'd ALSO get the Death Sentence
(dead if you're caught by the criminal,
dead if you're NOT caught by the criminal),
and your only other option was to be made ROYALTY
and get money, servants, power, etc.,
and royalty for your unborn child,
just what ARE the odds you'd try to tell someone?
Add the life of your unborn child into it.
You can't go into hiding so well while pregnant,
AND telling the truth will sentence your child
to a life on the run.
Options: death, or death, or money and power.
Granted, many people here are a higher caliber of
people than average. (This also means they wouldn't
have committed ADULTERY in the FIRST place.)
Was she also feeling guilty?
Possibly.
We know what the obvious consequences were
if she remained silent, or if she spoke up.
We don't know what she was actually THINKING.
We have NO verses saying she told anyone.
We DO know she accepted the throne as QUEEN.
Golly gee, looks like a strong case of accepting
the huge bribe.
So far, the only thing AGAINST that is Mike saying
he read some teaching by some other guy and
that's not what happened.
THIS is our standard for a convincing case?]
And it's hard to imagine there were no witnesses to Nathan's confrontation.
[ Imagination is NOT required for truth or falsehood.
Does the Bible say there were witnesses?
No names.
It is SILENT on this.
Can we speak and add people when the Bible is silent?
Well,
vpw said
"Where the Word of God remains silent, he who speaks is a fool."
Ok, we'll consider vpw's words on the Bible as non-authoritative
if you INSIST, Mike... ]
David wrote about his sin later. Everyone knew.
[LATER
MUCH, MUCH later.
Long after things blew over.
Judging from current political events,
that only takes a few years... ]
I'm not as sure on this, but wasn't the reason Uriah slept in his doorway was to let the whole city (and later on his soldiers) that even though he obeyed David's orders to sleep at his home, he didn't have sex with her just like what he expected of his men on the battlefield. So, in effect, there WAS an announcement placed at the gate.
[ That was probably what Uriah himself was thinking.
Of course, he had NO IDEA that this would be a problem...
What did the neighbors know?
They knew he was there.
Did they know he was there the whole time?
Of course-
they had video cameras,
and posted a 24-hour guard on him.
It says so in the verse....
oh, wait, there are NO verses saying the
neighbors stayed up all night and STARED
at Uriah.
Honestly, I'm not sure the foyer he was in was not
indoors and thus outside of public view,
and not a front-porch where he was in plain sight.
Since I don't have a verse, I won't guess, either.
Also,
like the soldiers in the field,
Uriah was not confined to a 5' x 5' box.
He could move around, get food, move
in the tent or indoors as necessary,
use the bathroom.
If Uriah wasn't indoors out of sight at SOME
point for a TIME-like to eat or whatever-
I find that silly.
Uriah wasn't ESTABLISHING AN ALIBI.
Uriah was showing he wasn't spending the
night in his comfy bed, he was
sleeping-bagging it like in the field.
Unless he had snoopy neighbors,
the neighbors didn't account for every
10-minute block of Uriah's time.
According to some people,
5 minutes is plenty of time for whatever.
(Mrs G.Hart.)
So, the only ones who could say for sure
that Uriah and Bathsheba didn't spend
ANY time together for SURE was
the two of them.
If a kid showed up later,
URIAH would know it wasn't him.
Based on what happened later,
a neighbor could honestly have said
"Uriah spent the time mostly camped
out, but DID spend a short dalliance with
his wife. Understandable, having been
apart from her on the field.
She got pregnant. The King thought she
was beautiful, despite bearing Uriah's
kid, and even seemed ready to adopt
him. That wasn't necessary, but generous
of the King."
The neighbors had NO REASON to say-
for SURE-that this was not exactly what
happened.
Lacking a verse telling us
"people knew",
to claim they DID is speculation. ]
***
If speculation is what you want to avoid,
[[...then you should stop taking MIKE's word for
anything, as this thread's been showing SO FAR...[/b]
[Oh, time for Mike's commercial!]
it's very clearly the case that Dr urged us from 1975 to 1985 to master what was written. It's clearly the case that no one really did this, not all the way, not even close. The only way to find out if there is substance to these urgings is to DARE to be the RARE grad to do it.
[And,
supposing he did say this,
why should we take vpw's word as divine fiat?
We escaped his organization ONCE...]
***
As for that exchange between Dr and Chris I'd like to see the transcript of the tape.
[so he can find a way to discredit it.
He's done that to EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS,
he does that to anything he disagrees with.]
Please don't be offended in this,
but I've learned that it's pretty easy for us to inject our mind pictures into memories
and distort them.
I do this; we all do this.
[Mike and I AGREE on something!
I'd add that some of us-*coughmikecough*- are better at it than others.
But, as written, I'll agree.]
I'd like to examine every detail of what was said. Can you pinpoint the date at all, just to help me in this pursuit? If you can't date it, then how well can you rely on the details you seem to remember?
[He started quick.
Questioned the date, and "you SEEM to remember..."
MIKE's accounts, on the other hand, are inviolate.
(Even when previous posts say otherwise.) [
Again, no offense intended, just rigor sought.
[No offense intended, just 'discounting the evidence' sought.
Let's be HONEST here. ]
*******
And johniam, thank you for that additional data.
[Which has NOT been verified yet,
but Mike is already announcing that it's proof positive
that everyone knew.
If the verification process craps out,
Mike will of course deny having endorsed it.]
Yes, everyone knew of the Uriah matter.
[Pending verification of a number of details
of that assertion.
If it turns out to be accurate,
months from now,
Mike-as usual, will announce he was aware
all along of that verse,
and was waiting for his detractors to correct
him so that he could whip it out.
If it fails the white glove test,
Mike will pretend it PASSED OR will
pretend it never came up.
Me, I'm WAITING until more information
is brought forth before I say 'yes' or 'no'.
See, us people who actually want TRUTH
do that. Those who want to pretend they
HAVE truth DON'T do that. ]
*******
oldiesman,
Although I'm disappointed with you on the open ended mastery objection/excuse, I do thank you for your later two posts. Nice.
Couldn't you, yourself, come up with a suitable endpoint for mastery? Come on, I know you can do it. ;)
*******
If anyone sees any item in WW's posts that they think I should respond to, please let me know.
I skim his posts
[ignoring evidence you're wrong makes it SO easy to
pretend you're right, and makes looking in the mirror
a much easier task.
Feel free to let them go OR prompt him as you see fit.
His "cherry-picking" approach to his refutations ALONE
demonstrates an INability to answer all problems.
It also, of course, demonstrates a style that skips
"read what's written", which, supposedly, is the
basis for his "study methods".
Actually,
his approach is
"pick the sections from vpw's work that seem to
support my position, and SKIP those that
REFUTE my work, even if they're on the same
page."
I'll demonstrate that again the next time I
get bored-it's come up quite a few times,
and NOT by me, most of them.]
and skip some too finding myself getting too angry at the many things wrong
[Especially the
"it's wrong to hold Mike to all his posts"
and the
"Mike's said some silly things as doctrine"
stuff.
Now,
he's actually trying to deny he's
said stuff like
Jesus telling him he's VERY interested in pfal,
and seeing Jesus reading from pfal and stuff.
Why, I can't say....
I mean, isn't he PROUD of his posts?]
and how much time it would waste in trying to answer it all.
[imagine how much time I waste retyping on Mike's
doctrines when they've ALREADY been successfully
refuted a few times a year for the past 3 years...]
I want to be thorough but not at his bidding.
[Now comes the "I want to control the microphone"
excuse.
This is not MIKE's messageboard.
Therefore, he posts his ideas, and we post ours.
If his sound moronic, that is HIS fault.
If we prove that, it doesn't mean we changed his posts,
it means we caught his error. ]
Just paste in any parts you would really like to see me deal with and tell me why, ok? Thanks
Would you like to see more early posts of mine that discredit what you said about me and divine dictation? There's an abundance of them out there. I have often reported that the human sources Dr drew from were sometimes credited by him as having received some revelation in the deal. That's pretty much the opposite of divine dictation, more where those human sources did the dictation of what they got from Father.
[My previous posts addressed this a few times in this thread,
so I'm not going to bore the readers by refuting it in every post.
I'll keep refuting it later. ]
***
The reason I challenged you to produce context is to prove to all that you didn't save that context, thinking it unimportant, even though you did save the quirky lines.
[Actually, it was to try to discredit direct quotes from you.
You didn't bother to FIND them,
even though I provided the dates and times,
and your excuses saying that you were UNABLE to do
so were easy to refute-since I used the same methods
available to you to find them when you were saying
it was impossible.]
What's important to you is not what I intend to say and do say, it's what it sounds like I say.
[Not at all.
I speak PLAINLY and want others to understand ME and YOU
CLEARLY.
I answer challenges DIRECTLY.
I speak CLEARLY.
I do what I can to retain the meaning of EVERYONE's posts.
YOU're the one who keeps trying for the "instrutable fortune cookie"
approach.]
Discrediting me is your only goal in this matter, not understanding my heart and the content of my posting.
[Actually,
exposing your doctrine is my primary goal.
Exposing your techniques I do when it's convenient.
Thus, I am better with the content of your posting
than YOU are, since I cut thru the bs.
Whether you have the best of intentions when
spreading toxic waste around does NOT concern
me. Others have tried to help you; you've refused
help. Therefore, I concern myself with others
who may touch the toxic waste.
So, if showing your content means
"discrediting" you, then that's what I do. ]
If you care about the facts, start saving the context.
[No, I save the dates and times so others can see
the threads-and not hope I didnt ALTER THE TEXT.
That's because I respect my audience.]
If you care to get my position correct why not do a little research of what is still available
[i did-and posted the dates/times so others could do the same.
If you're too inept to use the search function,
I told you that you could beg me to use it FOR you,
but you've refused.
I guess the "illusion of mogdom" you're trying to
compose for YOURSELF is insufficient to survive
something like that,
so you'd rather pretend they don't exist rather
than admit that they're easy for others to find,
but are beyond your meager skills.
24/7, others CAN find them.... ]
before you shot from the hip with a falsehood? Do you care about truth or only influence?
[Rather than throw out accusations,
I'll let your previous posts-which are still searchable-
speak for themselves.]
***
When I write a quirky line it could be a figure of speech, which is not limited to but does includes humor, OR it could be literal.
I have an admittedly extreme position,
which means that some things I literally hold will sound quirky to the uninitiated.
[Yet you want to conceal both the positions and the reasons
for holding them from the uninitiated.
Why?]
My extreme position was selected only because of the extreme evidence I had seen.
[We've seen some of your "extreme evidence".
It fell upart when compared to the rest of the Orange Book.
Hiding the evidence doesn't make it any less weak.]
***
When I fail to respond to you please assume that it's because I don't want to waste the time.
[No, it's because you are unable to refute a challenge.]
If I were expected to respond to all your objections then that would be a good way to shut me up, wouldn't it.
[No, worse-
It will show I am making sense,
and you're NOT.
People can compare the posts side-by-side.
I don't want you "shut up" as much as "with the light of truth shining on you".]
All you'd have to do to slow me down considerably is throw a lot of garbage at me and see how long it takes for me to clean it all up. No thanks.
[Well,
that would dilute the quality of my posts if I did.
My readers would be offended.
I'd lose my fanbase.
Stuff like that.
You will have to account for every idle word.
[Oh, that's right-
exposing Mike's doctrine to the light of truth is tantamount
to attacking God Almighty! ]
(snip)
When you think on it, we all commit the greatest sin by breaking the greatest commandment, yet no one seems to get bent out of shape by that sin. We attach degrees of evil to sin that reflects our flesh point of view and how much we think it can hurt us and others at that time in history. Then fads change and we shift our perspective on which sins are the most evil, still missing the impact of the greatest sin.
[This "greatest commandment" you claim we're violating-
this is the "not mastering pfal" thing when you're saying this,
correct?
Feel free to refuse to give a "yes-no" answer to this-
EVADING a simple "yes-no" answer will be quite
informative to the peanut gallery.]
Remember that Dr admitted in a big way that he failed to be the man he KNEW (by revelation) to be. I do not revere Dr's sin nor his person. I am thankful all that he got taught what he put into print and most of what got on tape. It saved my life and much more, and not just me.
[vpw admitted it a few times,
but he didn't let that admission interfere with the
raping and drugging and molesting,
and the other stuff.
When you say you don't revere his sin,
I won't challenge that.
I will ask about your comments about vpw's PERSON,
To the patient readers of this and other threads I have a request.
If you think it's wrong for WW to filibuster like this, please say so. How may wrongs at TWI did you not speak up against and now regret it? Now's your chance to stand up against abuses. Some of you have said so in PMs and I'd like to see who else thinks this kind of suppressing of what I have to say is wrong.
WW is not engaging in any kind of civil discourse, but is only interested in snuffing out my point of view. Aren't we very tired of seeing that?
Does anyone care about the free discourse of ideas or are we lulled back into complacency if it's only someone else who is being attacked? I'm asking for people with character to step forth.
Of course, we all know that if I did this kind of smother job to any other poster here all hell would break loose, right?
I offer this, again, if any of you see an actual question, point, or challenge in this huge set of posts by WW, please isolate it and repeat it for me. I'd love to discuss any of these matters in public or in PMs with any interested grads.
The entire set of my posts is available. I have a set, and I suspect Pawtucket has a set. I doubt if he threw away the pruned threads. Maybe we can restore them at some time so people can see if WW is lying or not.
You might as well let it go, dude. Arguing with the seriously and clinically deluded means reams of arguments posted with no gain as to getting the aforementioned deluded to say "You know. You are right after all." And Smikeol's case is, for all practical purposes, terminal.
And I'm not even a certified psychologist, and even I can clearly see that.
If I had the time, and found myself in a bad mood I might very well do that, but what would be the gain? I can answer each and every one of WW's jabs, but why bother? He's out to lunch and I think it would energize him more.
What about the abuse angle, though, the suppression of my right to speak through filibustering? Do you think it's right for WW to carry on like that? What do you think would really happen to me if I did that to someone else?
******
Garth,
You're right about one thing. There's no changing my mind.
But thanks also for expressing the obvious, that WW's loosing it. Coming from an arch-adversary of mine like you it speaks volumes. Maybe you or some others can approach WW in PMs to calm him down. Surely no one can think he's using his time wisely, let alone Paw's hard drive space, which he accuses me of wasting.
******
Raf wrote:
"VPW's character doesn't disqualify his writings from being God-breathed.
VPW's writings disqualify his writings from being God-breathed."
This is a good point Raf makes and is the same one that I've been making all along, in the face of WW's barrage, regarding David. It's too bad he has his settings adjusted to ignore my posts. Maybe WW will spoon feed it to him in his filibustering.
Does everyone see what Raf has said? I bold fonted the first line because it's important.
He is agreeing with me that God can sort through the various weaknesses of any man and still get His work done, utilizing well that man's services when he is in fellowship, and even when he is not. This is a MAJOR point I have been hammering at for years here and here is Raf agreeing with me.
***
The second line in Raf's post is where we part company.
I contend that with the METHODS Raf has chosen to study Dr's writings he disqualifies himself to be an accurate viewer of said writings, and cannot judge if they are God-breathed or not.
Raf starts out by assuming they are not God-breathed, and then "proves" it.
When Raf finds an apparent contradiction that seems to stand up to HIS methods of scrutiny, he STOPS the investigation and celebrates. When I find an apparent contradiction I celebrate the fact that if I CONTINUE investigating I may soon discover an error in my thinking that will be cleared up as I look deeper into the matter.
If anyone here thinks that the reports we often hear at GSC of Dr's character disqualify him from being able to transmit God's revelations to us in PFAL, please debate that issue with Raf sometime, ok?
And please say "Hi" to him for me while your at it, too.
******
WW,
Do you agree with Raf's first line?
If I had written "VPW's character doesn't disqualify his writings from being God-breathed," would you hold your peace or jump all over me with several screens of posting.
******
Hey rascal, do you agree with Raf?
How about you others who seem to love posting on Dr's supposed sin and how he therefore couldn't get revelation like he claimed?
When Raf finds an apparent contradiction that seems to stand up to HIS methods of scrutiny, he STOPS the investigation and celebrates. When I find an apparent contradiction I celebrate the fact that if I CONTINUE investigating I may soon discover an error in my thinking that will be cleared up as I look deeper into the matter.
Bulls
Hit.
First of all, when I find an ACTUAL error in PFAL, I don't lose any sleep over it because it has not overturned my foundation for existence. I note it and I move on.
When you find an ACTUAL error in PFAL, you dodge, distract and deny, anything but admit that the ACTUAL error is an error. Then you PRETEND to go into your Mike cocoon to seek out the deeper answer. The result: not one of the actual errors has been refuted, answered, disproven by your methodology.
As for my comment on Wierwille's character not disqualifying his writings to be God-breathed, perhaps you missed my larger point, which is that you don't HAVE to resort to his mendacious, dishonest, harmful and sinister character to come to that conclusion his work is not God-breathed. The quality of his work speaks for itself: it's not God breathed because it fails to live up to its own standard of what it means to BE God-breathed, thereby disqualifying itself according to PFAL's standards, not according to mine.
The TRUTH that PFAL is a flawed work will never seek into your seared conscience, but I will not have you lying about me the way you lie about Wierwille, PFAL, God, Christ and the victims of Wierwille's lechery.
By the way, nice lie/misinterpretation of what Garth wrote.
But then, why should anyone expect you to represent him correctly when you've already lied about God, Christ, Wierwille, Wierwille's victims, my writings, WordWolf's writings, and even your own?
Garth's post:
You might as well let it go, dude. Arguing with the seriously and clinically deluded means reams of arguments posted with no gain as to getting the aforementioned deluded to say "You know. You are right after all." And Smikeol's case is, for all practical purposes, terminal.
No doubt or ambiguity about the identity of the "seriously deluded" here.
Mike's lie about what Garth wrote:
But thanks also for expressing the obvious, that WW's losing it. Coming from an arch-adversary of mine like you it speaks volumes. Maybe you or some others can approach WW in PMs to calm him down. Surely no one can think he's using his time wisely, let alone Paw's hard drive space, which he accuses me of wasting.
If I had the time, and found myself in a bad mood I might very well do that, but what would be the gain? I can answer each and every one of WW's jabs, but why bother?
[Answering WITH SUBSTANCE
is beyond your capabilities.
You can insult and belittle, but that's hardly
what everyone else calls "answering".
And pointing out your positions-and their changes-
hardly qualifies as "jabs". But, hey,
if it makes you happy to think you could match me....
I noticed that when I offered to keep my posts off
your thread, and let you have an all-Mike-all-the-time
thread, and ask only you keep of the
all-WordWolf-all-the-time
thread,
that you were unable to restrain yourself from
graffiti-ing on my thread.
Sometime after that, I started posting on your
thread as well. I TRIED to give you a free pass
ONCE...]
He's out to lunch and I think it would energize him more.
[Ooh, nice "ad homiem" attack! Insult the poster when you
lack any response of substance! Classic Mike.
Of course, it's classic vpw as well. ]
What about the abuse angle, though, the suppression of my right to speak through filibustering?
[Have I interfered with even ONE of Mike's posts?
Actually, I've responded on a one-to-one basis to them,
not 20-or-more.
Easy way to check-they each quote a DIFFERENT POST of MIKE'S.
If I was burying him, they'd be 5:1 or more, not 1:1.
Further,
Mike keeps forgetting that he is posting in a public forum,
equivalent to speaking in the public square.
If he doesn't want to run the risk of being refuted,
he shouldn't speak in the public square.]
Do you think it's right for WW to carry on like that?
[Do they think it's right for Mike to rewrite vpw's personal history
and character, and his books and classes,
on a twi-survivors site, in front of his victims?
How many "WordWolf" complaints has Paw gotten,
and how many "Mike" complaints has Paw gotten?]
What do you think would really happen to me if I did that to someone else?
[No, I'll leave this one alone...]
******
Garth,
You're right about one thing. There's no changing my mind.
But thanks also for expressing the obvious, that WW's loosing it.
[Garth wrote "WordWolf's losing it"? Or "loosing" it or whatever?
Here's what Garth said:
"WordWolf,
You might as well let it go, dude. Arguing with the seriously and clinically deluded
means reams of arguments posted with no gain as to getting the aforementioned
deluded to say 'You know, you are right after all.'
And Smikeol's case is, for all practical purposes, TERMINAL.
And I'm not even a certified psychologist, and even I can clearly see that."
Mike's response:
"Garth said WordWolf's losing it!"
Now, new people,
if Mike does this to a post less than one paragraph long,
how much would you trust him to correctly get even the OBVIOUS
meanings of the Orange Book?]
Coming from an arch-adversary of mine like you it speaks volumes.
[Garth, you reached "ARCH"-adversary status.
Congratulations! ]
Maybe you or some others can approach WW in PMs to calm him down.
[Garth, do I seem to be reacting emotionally here?
I saw SOMEONE spewing insults, but I didn't think it was me...]
Surely no one can think he's using his time wisely,
[some people are VERY entertained by watching this.
I may have a lucha mask made. ]
let alone Paw's hard drive space, which he accuses me of wasting.
[You ARE wasting it.
My posts ANSWER yours.
When I don't need to do that, my posting drops dramatically.
You're using this as your public "street corner", and the posts
are taking up data-space, and Paw PAYS for that space.
If he asks for something for the space I use-which pales in
comparison, your threads exceed ALL my posting on ALL
threads-I'll gladly pay, but you're DELIBERATELY abusing
his hospitality, and never offered to pay for it.
Bemoaning the deletion of some of your voluminous threads
was petty. There's no constitutional right to Paw archiving
your ramblings forever. There's no such right for Paw allowing
you here. Paw can edit all your posts if he wants to-
it is HIS BOARD. It would be morally questionable (at least),
but well within his legal rights.
If you wanted UNOPPOSED activity on a board,
you should RUN YOUR OWN BOARD.
I'm welcome at MANY boards all over cyberspace.
You're not.
I've been offered mod or admin status on a number
of boards.
Is it any surprise to anyone?]
******
Raf wrote:
"VPW's character doesn't disqualify his writings from being God-breathed.
VPW's writings disqualify his writings from being God-breathed."
This is a good point Raf makes and is the same one that I've been making all along,
[MIKE HAS AGREED-
VPW'S WRITINGS HAVE BEEN DISQUALIFIED FROM BEING GOD-BREATHED,
AND THAT DISQUALIFICATION IS BASED ON THEIR OWN CONTENT!
Garth-
wasn't that fast?
He said Raf was right after all.
Perhaps you owe me or Raf an apology.
]
in the face of WW's barrage, regarding David.
It's too bad he has his settings adjusted to ignore my posts.
Maybe WW will spoon feed it to him in his filibustering.
Does everyone see what Raf has said?
[Yes, he said
"VPW's character doesn't qualify his writings from being God-breathed.
VPW's writings disqualify his writings from being God-breathed."
In plain English,
he said VPW's writings were disqualified from being God-breathed
on the basis of their own contents.
They were not disqualified on any other basis-
like the character of the writer."
He was answering the strawman that vpw's sins affected the content of
the books. He's been saying that for YEARS.
Mike misunderstood him THEN, and has misunderstood him NOW.
Watch Mike's method of understanding unfold... ]
I bold fonted the first line because it's important.
He is agreeing with me that God can sort through the various weaknesses of any man
and still get His work done,
[Raf's BEEN saying that for years, Mike's been missing it for years. Any surprise,
based on his mangling of others posts in THIS post?]
utilizing well that man's services when he is in fellowship, and even when he is not.
[God gets His purposes done in SPITE of, not BECAUSE of,
God's people.
When they help, they get the pleasure of sharing.
Raf's been saying that for years.
I'VE been saying that for years.
Mike has been missing that for years.]
This is a MAJOR point I have been hammering at for years here and here is Raf agreeing with me.
[Actually,
that was never the issue, but you've been PRETENDING it was for years.
Raf said VPW's writings are not God-breathed. ]
***
The second line in Raf's post is where we part company.
[You parted company much sooner, but hey, we all saw that.]
I contend that with the METHODS Raf has chosen to study Dr's writings
[That is-actually STUDYING THE WRITINGS. Mike deeply objects
to that...]
he disqualifies himself to be an accurate viewer of said writings,
[Actually, Raf earns his paycheck through being an accurate viewer,
and has made a CAREER out of it.
Mike has NOT made a career of being an accurate viewer,
nor being able to judge the performance OF such. ]
and cannot judge if they are God-breathed or not.
[This conclusion is based on....?]
Raf starts out by assuming they are not God-breathed, and then "proves" it.
Raf started out by checking the internal testimony of them as to what
"God-breathed" was, then applied their OWN standards to them.
They were never meant to hold TO that standard,
so naturally, they fail their own internal test.
That has nothing to do with Raf.
Truth is still truth, whether or not Raf proclaims it.]
When Raf finds an apparent contradiction that seems to stand up to HIS methods of scrutiny,
he STOPS the investigation and celebrates.
[Actually, when he did, he opened EACH error to discussion.
I did the same.
That means we STARTED investigating further,
and opened the findings up to PEER REVIEW,
where people prone to disagreeing with him/us
can see it and possibly find out we are wrong-
supposing we are wrong.
Now, compare that to Mike's method,
where Mike attempts to hide his doctrine,
and, when errors are found despite that,
he insults the finders-whom he should THANK
PROFUSELY for finding his mistakes.]
When I find an apparent contradiction I celebrate the fact that if I CONTINUE investigating
I may soon discover an error in my thinking that will be cleared up as I look deeper into the matter.
[AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Mike,
you may be completely ignorant of your own style,
but it's been demonstrated in abundance in the years you've posted here.
When you find any contradiction, error or other problem in PFAL,
you do anything you can to attempt to DISCREDIT it,
and, failing that, to HIDE it.
"Dodge, distract, deny, but never admit an error is an error."
I know you're SO sorry you let that slip once,
but it's SO descriptive of your own style.
A number of errors have been discussed, but none of them was
EVER answered by your "methods".
Others, using HONEST methods, have discussed and investigated
some of them. The discussions alone are often an education in
themselves. The results are FAR more effective than your
"dodge, distract, deny" methodology.]
If anyone here thinks that the reports we often hear at GSC of Dr's character
disqualify him from being able to transmit God's revelations to us in PFAL,
please debate that issue with Raf sometime, ok?
And please say "Hi" to him for me while your at it, too.
******
WW,
Do you agree with Raf's first line?
If I had written "VPW's character doesn't disqualify his writings from being God-breathed," would you hold your peace or jump all over me with several screens of posting.
[Actually, my reply would have been much like
Raf's second line.
"His lack of character is irrelevant to the discussion.
It is the contents of his books that demonstrate that the contents of his books
fall far short of the fictional 'God-breathed' status to which Mike has
elevated it. A discussion of the deficiencies of his character need not
even enter the discussion."
Something like that would have been my reply.]
******
Hey rascal, do you agree with Raf?
How about you others who seem to love posting on Dr's supposed sin
and how he therefore couldn't get revelation like he claimed?
[Mike, thanks so much for demonstrating for the new people,
in one post,
that your methods of reading and comprehension are grossly-deficient
to be trusted to correctly convey the contents of a fast-food menu,
What about the abuse angle, though, the suppression of my right to speak through filibustering? Do you think it's right for WW to carry on like that? ...
Mike, I do admit it's a bit annoying, but what can you do?
Everyone has a right to express their opinion on this forum, and no posts are above scrutiny.
But thanks also for expressing the obvious, that WW's loosing it.
Ahhhh, altho' it should be obvious to any with 2 active brain cells, the deluded individual that I refer to ... is *you*. ..... Just a friendly reminder from an arch-adversary.
B)
WW,
Arch level huh? :) I always enjoy being promoted. ... Now if only I can get a payment and benefits package to match.
He is agreeing with me that God can sort through the various weaknesses of any man and still get His work done.
Whether or not I agree with the above statement, it is not what I intended to say. It is, however, a reasonable interpretation of my statement: "VPWs character doesn't disqualify his writings from being God-breathed." So I won't call that a lie or a misinterpretation. It's more poor communication on my part. I clarified what I meant later: It's not VPW's character that disqualifies his writings as God-breathed. It's his writings that do so. He could have been of impeccable character, and his writings would still be disqualified as God-breathed on the merits.
… How may wrongs at TWI did you not speak up against and now regret it? Now's your chance to stand up against abuses. Some of you have said so in PMs and I'd like to see who else thinks this kind of suppressing of what I have to say is wrong.
Good. Gooooood my young apprentice! Wield your PFAL-Saber and cut off another part the body. Mark and avoid and strike him down. Kill him! Do it! Good - Goood!! No need to feel shame. After all it’s only natural. He cut of your right arm - you wanted revenge. He was much too powerful to keep alive anyway.
Do you want to kill me? Ohhhhhhhhhh - I know you would! I can sense your anger as you continually reflect on and remember the sins and frailties of VPW and all the ministry leaders who have failed you. It gives you focus. It makes you strooooooonger in the dark side of The Way!
Hmmmmmmm, I sense something – there’s a presence here that I have not felt in a long time. Could it be a PFAL grad? So my old PFAL apprentice has now become the PFAL Master! The FORCE of the light side of PFAL is STROOOONG with you Master Mike! Very well then. If you will not be persuaded to join the DARK SIDE of TWI, then I’m afraid young Mike Skywalker – you must -- die.
DIE!~~~~DIE!! ~~~~~(sizzle) ~~~~
Yes I realize I am over-dramatizing. But it’s not like we all can’t sense the blue lightning streaming from the fingers pointed at Mike by those who have joined: “the TWI dark side”. Reading their remarks is like watching an old cheesy ‘70’s sci-fi flick and just about as entertaining. It truly has become the metaphor for some people’s lives. The reason it’s so popular I imagine. Oh well, C’est la vie. Another episode of TWI-WARS has begun and people are still stuck in the previous episode. No thanks. I’ll pass on the stale (TWI) popcorn being tossed at each other seeing how it's permeated this thread like all the rest.
If I'm ever in legal trouble, I want you to be my lawyer. Actually, I want 12 of you on my jury. Especially if I'm actually guilty. Because you don't know up from down, right from wrong, or the dark side from the side the rest of us are on.
Mike lies, we point out and document his lies, and you criticize US for it? Wow.
WOW! This has really gone haywire! Well I'm glad for the comic relief. I go to teach some students how to see and draw and I come back to ...well... Star Wars! Talk about really going back to the "70's!
And to think that when I joined this site I determined not to get involved in any of the "Doctrinal " forums. Little did I know... This is obviously a LOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNG standing argument. Sorry I didn't know how to figure that out before I started the thread. I'll not do that again!
No matter who's right and who's wrong this can't be good for anyone involved! It's time consuming. It's exhausting just keeping up with the posts. I feel deep within my very being that life is being sucked out of our souls by this. Please forgive me all of you. This was the wrong thread for me to start as a newbie. No matter what you all think of each other (or me for that fact) we are all better than this and God deserves better than this.. If I had the power I would shut this thing down NOW.
Ponder this please, No snappy comebacks. If you see the futility in this just get quiet and pray for your enemy... whoever that may be. Let God sort out the details - He will anyway.
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WordWolf
[see, Mike doesn't care about ANY consequences except ONE:
Whether a man of God can SIN and SIN,
and then be counted on to write Scripture.
That's why Mike fixates on David and tries to add all kinds of things to his
story to try to make it resemble vpw's life.]
[That's easy.You look at the life of the person FOLLOWING the incident,
and what they do over the long run.
As was already pointed out ABOVE,
I Kings 15:5
"Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD,
and
turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the
days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite."
I take it God Almighty is considered an EXPERT WITNESS
in the subject of "people's hearts",
and his EXPERT TESTIMONY is that David
DID NOT SIN
after that.
Mike's speculations on David have CONTINUED to
CONTRADICT the EXPERT TESTIMONY of GOD ALMIGHTY.
When considering who to believe,
I pick GOD ALMIGHTY
over Mike the human
anytime.
Compare this to vpw, whom, we have many, many, many
eyewitness and VICTIM accounts,
lived a life of sin and made arrangements to FACILITATE
(make it easier to) sin.
Need I go into that all over again?
Mike's been missing that for YEARS already....]
[If God ever needs some extra cash,
I'll let Him know He has options. ]
[Ah, the famous "if God knew something bad would happen,
and didn't stop it, He must have approved" straw man.
I thought we stomped this into the ground in the early 1990s.
Apparently not.
Look-
God allows man free-will.
Period.
Don't like it? Take it up with God. ]
[Mike ran out of defenses on this,
so he volunteered to stop trying to defend it.
Very generous of him.
The fox also offers the duck its pond, also.]
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Raf
I'll check that. Thanks for the correction.
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Raf
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WordWolf
[WordWolf in brackets and boldface again.]
[Told you Mike would never give a clear, unambiguous answer.
If he did, and you satisfied it, and it STILL didn't work,
he'd be unable to "move the goalposts" and claim you
never REALLY "mastered pfal".
It's the same tactic when his supposed "law" of believing
fails most of the time. Excuse after excuse is dragged in
to attempt to conceal the failure of a so-called "law".
Plus, Mike would be unable to just tell you stuff and have
you take orders if you were on the SAME level or
HIGHER than him....
I honestly tried before to help him crystallize his doctrine into
something clear and unambiguous that others could either
accept or reject as they saw fit.
Mike still insisted on vagueness, on being able to reinterpret
things later to suit him.
Mike will change when the leopard changes his spots.]
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Raf
John,
I see that Ahithophel was Bathsheba's grandfather (took a little digging), but I do not see that he knew anything about what had happened prior to Uriah's death. If there's something there, could you point me to it?
A little speculation, and maybe Ahithophel did some math, calculating the time between David's marriage to Bathsheba and the birth of Solomon, realizing it was less than nine months. But I don't see anything explicit enough to support "he made sure everybody knew."
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oldiesman
Good point Mike.
Same goes for King Solomon.
It appears hard for some folks to believe that God can communicate his Word to folks who at times can be so idolatrously sinful and harmful to others.
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oldiesman
VP said we should master PFAL, and so I suppose VP should also have told us exactly what that meant, how to do it, and at what point the mastery was accomplished?
I thought that perhaps God told YOU this Mike...that was one reason why I asked.
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WordWolf
[WordWolf in brackets and boldface again.]
[Mike's handing out homework AGAIN.
Mike STILL thinks he's our teacher,
when he hasn't even demonstrated he can
KEEP UP....]
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WordWolf
[WordWolf in boldface and brackets.]
[Oh, that's right-
exposing Mike's doctrine to the light of truth is tantamount
to attacking God Almighty! ]
[This "greatest commandment" you claim we're violating-
this is the "not mastering pfal" thing when you're saying this,
correct?
Feel free to refuse to give a "yes-no" answer to this-
EVADING a simple "yes-no" answer will be quite
informative to the peanut gallery.]
[vpw admitted it a few times,
but he didn't let that admission interfere with the
raping and drugging and molesting,
and the other stuff.
When you say you don't revere his sin,
I won't challenge that.
I will ask about your comments about vpw's PERSON,
which you claim you don't REVERE.
You've previously claimed that vpw
"was born with an overabundance of
brains and brawn",
that he was "overgifted",
and that "where he walked, the earth shook."
Are you denying that you made these claims now,
or are you denying that these claims qualify as
"REVERING" vpw?
Feel free to refuse to answer that one as well-
refusing to explain how claiming these things
supposedly are statements of fact and not
vapid worship and a violation of one of the
10 Commandments will ALSO be quite
informative on its own to those reading along...]
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Raf
VPW's character doesn't disqualify his writings from being God-breathed.
VPW's writings disqualify his writings from being God-breathed.
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Mike
To the patient readers of this and other threads I have a request.
If you think it's wrong for WW to filibuster like this, please say so. How may wrongs at TWI did you not speak up against and now regret it? Now's your chance to stand up against abuses. Some of you have said so in PMs and I'd like to see who else thinks this kind of suppressing of what I have to say is wrong.
WW is not engaging in any kind of civil discourse, but is only interested in snuffing out my point of view. Aren't we very tired of seeing that?
Does anyone care about the free discourse of ideas or are we lulled back into complacency if it's only someone else who is being attacked? I'm asking for people with character to step forth.
Of course, we all know that if I did this kind of smother job to any other poster here all hell would break loose, right?
I offer this, again, if any of you see an actual question, point, or challenge in this huge set of posts by WW, please isolate it and repeat it for me. I'd love to discuss any of these matters in public or in PMs with any interested grads.
The entire set of my posts is available. I have a set, and I suspect Pawtucket has a set. I doubt if he threw away the pruned threads. Maybe we can restore them at some time so people can see if WW is lying or not.
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GarthP2000
Wordwolf,
You might as well let it go, dude. Arguing with the seriously and clinically deluded means reams of arguments posted with no gain as to getting the aforementioned deluded to say "You know. You are right after all." And Smikeol's case is, for all practical purposes, terminal.
And I'm not even a certified psychologist, and even I can clearly see that.
:huh:
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oldiesman
Mike, please let all hell break loose, by all means.
Just think, this has the potential to be another exciting mega-thread.
I want to be entertained. :D
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Mike
oldiesman,
If I had the time, and found myself in a bad mood I might very well do that, but what would be the gain? I can answer each and every one of WW's jabs, but why bother? He's out to lunch and I think it would energize him more.
What about the abuse angle, though, the suppression of my right to speak through filibustering? Do you think it's right for WW to carry on like that? What do you think would really happen to me if I did that to someone else?
******
Garth,
You're right about one thing. There's no changing my mind.
But thanks also for expressing the obvious, that WW's loosing it. Coming from an arch-adversary of mine like you it speaks volumes. Maybe you or some others can approach WW in PMs to calm him down. Surely no one can think he's using his time wisely, let alone Paw's hard drive space, which he accuses me of wasting.
******
Raf wrote:
"VPW's character doesn't disqualify his writings from being God-breathed.
VPW's writings disqualify his writings from being God-breathed."
This is a good point Raf makes and is the same one that I've been making all along, in the face of WW's barrage, regarding David. It's too bad he has his settings adjusted to ignore my posts. Maybe WW will spoon feed it to him in his filibustering.
Does everyone see what Raf has said? I bold fonted the first line because it's important.
He is agreeing with me that God can sort through the various weaknesses of any man and still get His work done, utilizing well that man's services when he is in fellowship, and even when he is not. This is a MAJOR point I have been hammering at for years here and here is Raf agreeing with me.
***
The second line in Raf's post is where we part company.
I contend that with the METHODS Raf has chosen to study Dr's writings he disqualifies himself to be an accurate viewer of said writings, and cannot judge if they are God-breathed or not.
Raf starts out by assuming they are not God-breathed, and then "proves" it.
When Raf finds an apparent contradiction that seems to stand up to HIS methods of scrutiny, he STOPS the investigation and celebrates. When I find an apparent contradiction I celebrate the fact that if I CONTINUE investigating I may soon discover an error in my thinking that will be cleared up as I look deeper into the matter.
If anyone here thinks that the reports we often hear at GSC of Dr's character disqualify him from being able to transmit God's revelations to us in PFAL, please debate that issue with Raf sometime, ok?
And please say "Hi" to him for me while your at it, too.
******
WW,
Do you agree with Raf's first line?
If I had written "VPW's character doesn't disqualify his writings from being God-breathed," would you hold your peace or jump all over me with several screens of posting.
******
Hey rascal, do you agree with Raf?
How about you others who seem to love posting on Dr's supposed sin and how he therefore couldn't get revelation like he claimed?
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Raf
I knew I'd pick the right one to read. :)
BullsHit.
First of all, when I find an ACTUAL error in PFAL, I don't lose any sleep over it because it has not overturned my foundation for existence. I note it and I move on.
When you find an ACTUAL error in PFAL, you dodge, distract and deny, anything but admit that the ACTUAL error is an error. Then you PRETEND to go into your Mike cocoon to seek out the deeper answer. The result: not one of the actual errors has been refuted, answered, disproven by your methodology.
As for my comment on Wierwille's character not disqualifying his writings to be God-breathed, perhaps you missed my larger point, which is that you don't HAVE to resort to his mendacious, dishonest, harmful and sinister character to come to that conclusion his work is not God-breathed. The quality of his work speaks for itself: it's not God breathed because it fails to live up to its own standard of what it means to BE God-breathed, thereby disqualifying itself according to PFAL's standards, not according to mine.
The TRUTH that PFAL is a flawed work will never seek into your seared conscience, but I will not have you lying about me the way you lie about Wierwille, PFAL, God, Christ and the victims of Wierwille's lechery.
By the way, nice lie/misinterpretation of what Garth wrote.
But then, why should anyone expect you to represent him correctly when you've already lied about God, Christ, Wierwille, Wierwille's victims, my writings, WordWolf's writings, and even your own?
Garth's post:
No doubt or ambiguity about the identity of the "seriously deluded" here.
Mike's lie about what Garth wrote:
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Oakspear
WordWolf isn't filibustering, he's addressing points and pointing out inconsistancies. I'm glad that he has the time for it.
...and Johniam, I don't need a remdial bible-reading course, I know what it says, I just don't accept it as my only source of truth.
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WordWolf
[WordWolf in boldface and brackets.]
[Mike, thanks so much for demonstrating for the new people,
in one post,
that your methods of reading and comprehension are grossly-deficient
to be trusted to correctly convey the contents of a fast-food menu,
let alone what is "God-breathed" or not.
That saved me a LOT of time.]
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oldiesman
Mike, I do admit it's a bit annoying, but what can you do?
Everyone has a right to express their opinion on this forum, and no posts are above scrutiny.
Relax.
Sit back
and
have one on me (sip it slow..mmm)
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GarthP2000
Smikeol,
Ahhhh, altho' it should be obvious to any with 2 active brain cells, the deluded individual that I refer to ... is *you*. ..... Just a friendly reminder from an arch-adversary.
B)
WW,
Arch level huh? :) I always enjoy being promoted. ... Now if only I can get a payment and benefits package to match.
Oldies,
ROFLMAO!! Drambruie huh? ;)
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Raf
Whether or not I agree with the above statement, it is not what I intended to say. It is, however, a reasonable interpretation of my statement: "VPWs character doesn't disqualify his writings from being God-breathed." So I won't call that a lie or a misinterpretation. It's more poor communication on my part. I clarified what I meant later: It's not VPW's character that disqualifies his writings as God-breathed. It's his writings that do so. He could have been of impeccable character, and his writings would still be disqualified as God-breathed on the merits.
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What The Hey
Good. Gooooood my young apprentice! Wield your PFAL-Saber and cut off another part the body. Mark and avoid and strike him down. Kill him! Do it! Good - Goood!! No need to feel shame. After all it’s only natural. He cut of your right arm - you wanted revenge. He was much too powerful to keep alive anyway.
Do you want to kill me? Ohhhhhhhhhh - I know you would! I can sense your anger as you continually reflect on and remember the sins and frailties of VPW and all the ministry leaders who have failed you. It gives you focus. It makes you strooooooonger in the dark side of The Way!
Hmmmmmmm, I sense something – there’s a presence here that I have not felt in a long time. Could it be a PFAL grad? So my old PFAL apprentice has now become the PFAL Master! The FORCE of the light side of PFAL is STROOOONG with you Master Mike! Very well then. If you will not be persuaded to join the DARK SIDE of TWI, then I’m afraid young Mike Skywalker – you must -- die.
DIE!~~~~DIE!! ~~~~~(sizzle) ~~~~
Yes I realize I am over-dramatizing. But it’s not like we all can’t sense the blue lightning streaming from the fingers pointed at Mike by those who have joined: “the TWI dark side”. Reading their remarks is like watching an old cheesy ‘70’s sci-fi flick and just about as entertaining. It truly has become the metaphor for some people’s lives. The reason it’s so popular I imagine. Oh well, C’est la vie. Another episode of TWI-WARS has begun and people are still stuck in the previous episode. No thanks. I’ll pass on the stale (TWI) popcorn being tossed at each other seeing how it's permeated this thread like all the rest.
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Raf
What the Hey:
If I'm ever in legal trouble, I want you to be my lawyer. Actually, I want 12 of you on my jury. Especially if I'm actually guilty. Because you don't know up from down, right from wrong, or the dark side from the side the rest of us are on.
Mike lies, we point out and document his lies, and you criticize US for it? Wow.
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oldiesman
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doojable
WOW! This has really gone haywire! Well I'm glad for the comic relief. I go to teach some students how to see and draw and I come back to ...well... Star Wars! Talk about really going back to the "70's!
And to think that when I joined this site I determined not to get involved in any of the "Doctrinal " forums. Little did I know... This is obviously a LOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNG standing argument. Sorry I didn't know how to figure that out before I started the thread. I'll not do that again!
No matter who's right and who's wrong this can't be good for anyone involved! It's time consuming. It's exhausting just keeping up with the posts. I feel deep within my very being that life is being sucked out of our souls by this. Please forgive me all of you. This was the wrong thread for me to start as a newbie. No matter what you all think of each other (or me for that fact) we are all better than this and God deserves better than this.. If I had the power I would shut this thing down NOW.
Ponder this please, No snappy comebacks. If you see the futility in this
just get quiet and pray for your enemy... whoever that may be. Let God sort out the details - He will anyway.
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