I think TWI II was sometimes marked not by when LCM first took the reins, but right about the time around 1993-1994 when he began making even more radical demands and changes in The Way Corps and then in the ministry in general. On the Corps night he initiated it, he remarked that VPW had made a mistake in 1975 by saying the purpose of The Way Corps was to train twigleaders. He said he was bringing it back to it's origins for those thought to have gift ministries.
The changes Martindale then initiated marked huge screws being tightened on the followers: The Corps purges, the Great Homo purges (God, remember the nasty imagery and foul language in that 4 or more (double-sided) page epistle he wrote to The Way Corps about homosexuals!!!!), the ban on mortgages, the forced increases in ABS, the Corps full time. Then a cycle of even greater purges and ramped up pressures. He made the point of "This ain't your Daddy's ministry anymore." I think that is also around the same time that he announced "The Word was Over the World." and at one time he even jokingly referred to it as "The Way II."
Those things marked a huge change in the culture and atmosphere around and in TWI. There was a big shift between 1994 and 1995 that almost seemed as if you had stepped into the Twilight Zone...
I think there were some old threads on WayDale that compared TWI I and TWI II...
I see TWI 2 much as Catcup does. In the late eighties, early ninties we were TC in a remote area. While we knew there was alot of upheaval around, we just kept having out little twig, etc. People came or didn't as they pleased, some ABSed, some never did, most had mortgages, kids, decent lives...
Around 93 the big get out of debt push meant we could no longer run the twig--we had a mortgage and medical bills, signs of baaaad believing. So then, seven families no longer had a twig! We were all encouraged to sell our homes and move into the big city. We did so, a couple of families decided to commute to a fellowship, many long hours. All of those people were forced out of TWI between 93 and 95 or so...they had been in TWi for a long time, too.
After 93, it seemed like there was no time to breathe. Constant things we had to do to prove how loyal we were. Loyal to God, that is, because the ministry IS the Word...
I see TWI 2 much as Catcup does. In the late eighties, early ninties we were TC in a remote area. While we knew there was alot of upheaval around, we just kept having out little twig, etc. People came or didn't as they pleased, some ABSed, some never did, most had mortgages, kids, decent lives...
Around 93 the big get out of debt push meant we could no longer run the twig--we had a mortgage and medical bills, signs of baaaad believing. So then, seven families no longer had a twig! We were all encouraged to sell our homes and move into the big city. We did so, a couple of families decided to commute to a fellowship, many long hours. All of those people were forced out of TWI between 93 and 95 or so...they had been in TWi for a long time, too.
After 93, it seemed like there was no time to breathe. Constant things we had to do to prove how loyal we were. Loyal to God, that is, because the ministry IS the Word...
Thanks Bramble.
I think 1989-1993 were still twi-1 in the sense that there was little legalism to speak of, and the programs that VP initially set up were still "available".
Then in 1993 things really changed for the worse. Abundant legalism, programs being dismantled, much less freedom, purges, etc.
So that's where I'd start referring to twi as twi-2, around 1993.
Eagle, we were 'counseled' that our medical debt--I had some complications following a birth, and living on one income with little ones at home, finances were really tight--were the result of either hardheartedness or slothfullness. We--gasp--didn't make it to any Advanced class special, where were our spiritual priorities etc.
Since we had a mortgage AND lived in an outlying area( a place way corps might visit once a year) far from the big city where the Word was HOT due to the presence of Way Corps, it was deemed slothfulness. Selling the house would open doors for God to poor on the blessings etc, since we would be doing the godly thing. Yada Yada.
It didn't open any doors of God's blessing at all.
Other things that were ushered in with TWI II were The Way of Abundance and Power replacing Piffle.... the removal or back burner of VPW's classes and books and the Great Forehead's book on outreach being pushed.... Anything VP was "old wineskins" --All Hail the Great Forehead...
How soon the innies have forgotten this era of great pressures and the gutstripping and defamation of believers for anything that could pass for "genuine suspicion"...
Oh, y'all c'mon back, now, y'hear?
Where is the acknowlegement and apology for the evils done?
I can name one pentecostal church in New Zealand where the call went out from the leadership to financially get ALL their 'single mums' out of debt !! This church actually gave the money to them, what a novel concept !! This church has about 15,000 members.
So maybe someone should prepare a work on the "Administrations of TWI I,II, and II" and determine which were merely for our learning only and which actually apply to us.....
Some people strongly feel that TWI of the 70s was some kind of Elysian fields experience and this was due to the mighty VPW
and his alleged great walk with God. I think it had more to do with the youthful, dynamic, energy and interest to make a difference that most of the followers had. But for whatever reason, VPW and TWI ,instead of the hardworking , joe believer, has gotten credit for those "good ole days" and I don't really understand that. I met some great people while in TWI but they would have been great and wonderful even outside of TWI. Its the hardworking believers that should get the props.. NOT VPW.
I think it had more to do with the youthful, dynamic, energy and interest to make a difference that most of the followers had.
I agree. Any positives there were at any time in TWI usually had more to do with the good that people brought to it rather than any good that emanated from it, IMO. And the more time went on, the more good was squeezed out of the people until they were nearly suffocated.
I'd start TWI II at the reading of POP. The entire mood changed. Instead of people leaving, entire movements were leaving. A TWI I attitude and POP were incompatible.
Catcup--As far as loyboy's joke about Way II----all the way corpse eventually had that on that nametags instead of whatever corpse they were in rez I think they were green marble-looking plastic "Way Corps II" on the bottom.
I'd start TWI II at the reading of POP. The entire mood changed. Instead of people leaving, entire movements were leaving. A TWI I attitude and POP were incompatible.
I have used the POP as the turning point too.
And that's a good point about the wap and wineskins too.
Other things that were ushered in with TWI II were The Way of Abundance and Power replacing Piffle.... the removal or back burner of VPW's classes and books and the Great Forehead's book on outreach being pushed.... Anything VP was "old wineskins"
Perhaps we should say twi1 ended at the POP:
And twi 2 began in 1993 with wap, etc.
I'd call the period in between our time of transition,
like the book of Acts between Gospels and Epistles.
Catcup--As far as loyboy's joke about Way II----all the way corpse eventually had that on that nametags instead of whatever corpse they were in rez I think they were green marble-looking plastic "Way Corps II" on the bottom.
The term the "fog years" came from the Great Forehead himself.
As I remember, he and Howard and Don had gone out on a fishing trip. Early in the morning, on a lake, the fog had rolled in so thick that they couldn't tell where the hell they were on the lake. The Great Forehead used it in a teaching as an analogy to describe the confusion the BOT and the ministry were left in during that time period after the Passing of the Poop paper.
They're STILL in that fog today. They just don't know it.
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dmiller
That's the way (no pun intended) I always saw it.
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GrouchoMarxJr
That sounds about right Eagle...
...If I'm not mistaken, didn't Veepee "prophesy" that one of his grandchildren would some day become president of twi?...twi4?
hee hee...
Actually the fate and duration of twi's existance will be exactly as long as the money holds out.
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rascal
Which probably won`t be long without us bringing it in....
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Catcup
I think TWI II was sometimes marked not by when LCM first took the reins, but right about the time around 1993-1994 when he began making even more radical demands and changes in The Way Corps and then in the ministry in general. On the Corps night he initiated it, he remarked that VPW had made a mistake in 1975 by saying the purpose of The Way Corps was to train twigleaders. He said he was bringing it back to it's origins for those thought to have gift ministries.
The changes Martindale then initiated marked huge screws being tightened on the followers: The Corps purges, the Great Homo purges (God, remember the nasty imagery and foul language in that 4 or more (double-sided) page epistle he wrote to The Way Corps about homosexuals!!!!), the ban on mortgages, the forced increases in ABS, the Corps full time. Then a cycle of even greater purges and ramped up pressures. He made the point of "This ain't your Daddy's ministry anymore." I think that is also around the same time that he announced "The Word was Over the World." and at one time he even jokingly referred to it as "The Way II."
Those things marked a huge change in the culture and atmosphere around and in TWI. There was a big shift between 1994 and 1995 that almost seemed as if you had stepped into the Twilight Zone...
I think there were some old threads on WayDale that compared TWI I and TWI II...
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markomalley
Here are a couple of good threads on the subject:
TWI 3 & 4
TWI-1 was a godly organization - nothing bad happened until TWI - 2 and the Martindale regime
twi3: RFR in control
The Seven Deadly Sins of TWI (1,2,3)
I think there are some other good ones there but I can't find them right now...
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Bramble
I see TWI 2 much as Catcup does. In the late eighties, early ninties we were TC in a remote area. While we knew there was alot of upheaval around, we just kept having out little twig, etc. People came or didn't as they pleased, some ABSed, some never did, most had mortgages, kids, decent lives...
Around 93 the big get out of debt push meant we could no longer run the twig--we had a mortgage and medical bills, signs of baaaad believing. So then, seven families no longer had a twig! We were all encouraged to sell our homes and move into the big city. We did so, a couple of families decided to commute to a fellowship, many long hours. All of those people were forced out of TWI between 93 and 95 or so...they had been in TWi for a long time, too.
After 93, it seemed like there was no time to breathe. Constant things we had to do to prove how loyal we were. Loyal to God, that is, because the ministry IS the Word...
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Eagle
Holy @!#$!
I left in 1992. I HEARD about all that.
You mean, TC were forced to resign because they had mortgages?
Holy @!#$!
Does anybody understand how that affects the membership and financial foundation of an organization when bonehead decisions are made like that?
Holy @!#$!
I have a mentally challenged son. He cannot comprehend math. Any math.
But even HE would have run this organization better than that.
Eagle
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bliss
Remember Eagle, it's not about the money.........
It is/was about CONTROL!
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oldiesman
Thanks Bramble.
I think 1989-1993 were still twi-1 in the sense that there was little legalism to speak of, and the programs that VP initially set up were still "available".
Then in 1993 things really changed for the worse. Abundant legalism, programs being dismantled, much less freedom, purges, etc.
So that's where I'd start referring to twi as twi-2, around 1993.
I'd refer to twi-1 as before that.
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Bramble
Eagle, we were 'counseled' that our medical debt--I had some complications following a birth, and living on one income with little ones at home, finances were really tight--were the result of either hardheartedness or slothfullness. We--gasp--didn't make it to any Advanced class special, where were our spiritual priorities etc.
Since we had a mortgage AND lived in an outlying area( a place way corps might visit once a year) far from the big city where the Word was HOT due to the presence of Way Corps, it was deemed slothfulness. Selling the house would open doors for God to poor on the blessings etc, since we would be doing the godly thing. Yada Yada.
It didn't open any doors of God's blessing at all.
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Catcup
Other things that were ushered in with TWI II were The Way of Abundance and Power replacing Piffle.... the removal or back burner of VPW's classes and books and the Great Forehead's book on outreach being pushed.... Anything VP was "old wineskins" --All Hail the Great Forehead...
How soon the innies have forgotten this era of great pressures and the gutstripping and defamation of believers for anything that could pass for "genuine suspicion"...
Oh, y'all c'mon back, now, y'hear?
Where is the acknowlegement and apology for the evils done?
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Allan
I can name one pentecostal church in New Zealand where the call went out from the leadership to financially get ALL their 'single mums' out of debt !! This church actually gave the money to them, what a novel concept !! This church has about 15,000 members.
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diazbro
So maybe someone should prepare a work on the "Administrations of TWI I,II, and II" and determine which were merely for our learning only and which actually apply to us.....
Some people strongly feel that TWI of the 70s was some kind of Elysian fields experience and this was due to the mighty VPW
and his alleged great walk with God. I think it had more to do with the youthful, dynamic, energy and interest to make a difference that most of the followers had. But for whatever reason, VPW and TWI ,instead of the hardworking , joe believer, has gotten credit for those "good ole days" and I don't really understand that. I met some great people while in TWI but they would have been great and wonderful even outside of TWI. Its the hardworking believers that should get the props.. NOT VPW.
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Catcup
I agree. Any positives there were at any time in TWI usually had more to do with the good that people brought to it rather than any good that emanated from it, IMO. And the more time went on, the more good was squeezed out of the people until they were nearly suffocated.
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Raf
I'd start TWI II at the reading of POP. The entire mood changed. Instead of people leaving, entire movements were leaving. A TWI I attitude and POP were incompatible.
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penguin
Catcup--As far as loyboy's joke about Way II----all the way corpse eventually had that on that nametags instead of whatever corpse they were in rez I think they were green marble-looking plastic "Way Corps II" on the bottom.
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dmiller
And that's a good point about the wap and wineskins too.
Perhaps we should say twi1 ended at the POP:
And twi 2 began in 1993 with wap, etc.
I'd call the period in between our time of transition,
like the book of Acts between Gospels and Epistles.
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Bramble
In TWI we called those transition years the FOG years. Then came Craig's mighty revelation--the GalationTapes/Leadership tapes.
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dmiller
Yea -- I know. Going out of one, and into two.
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Raf
Good point.
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Oakspear
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Catcup
The term the "fog years" came from the Great Forehead himself.
As I remember, he and Howard and Don had gone out on a fishing trip. Early in the morning, on a lake, the fog had rolled in so thick that they couldn't tell where the hell they were on the lake. The Great Forehead used it in a teaching as an analogy to describe the confusion the BOT and the ministry were left in during that time period after the Passing of the Poop paper.
They're STILL in that fog today. They just don't know it.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
thanks for shareing
damn i am so glad i missed all that and got out befor that happened
it makes me sick now
i would have puked over all of those pompass asses
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Belle
What timing! I didn't even get involved till November 1993!
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