I think the differentiation between the general and the specific is made clear to us when God tells us something specific and personal. It can be related to a general promise.
For example, we know that God wants us to enjoy good health. But we can receive specific revelation concerning our own health. I remember vividly being awaken one night by God, and Him telling me to go get my heart checked. I was asymptomatic, and it surprised me. In the next day or so I had some slight discomfort in my upper back, and a bit of tingling in my arm.
But I obeyed, and went to the ER to have it checked out. They admitted me and did tests for two days and found nothing, told me it was in my head, and discharged me.
I had my results sent to another cardiologist to compare to a baseline from about 7 years previous. He said there may be an area of concern and scheduled me for a heart cath. The next morning at 6 a.m. I had double by-pass surgery. I had a congenital defect, some kind of bulbous growth, and 60% blockage. I knew my blood pressure had been up since February, and this was September. But if God had not told me, I would have never suspected anything was seriously wrong, nor would I have pushed the situation. But knowing God had told me, I kept pushing until it was checked out completely. Glad I did as my mother and uncle both dropped dead of sudden heart attacks. As we did not do autopsy's don't know if they had the same defect or not, but think it's quite possible.
This may not be what you were asking at all. But it seemed like it fit.
And yet I have a number of newspaper clippings and I'm sure if you read the papers at home there are plenty of articles about things happening to people and they or someone else being interviewed stating that they had had a 'great fear' or a 'building fear' that this particular thing was going to happen to them.
One example was a teenage girl who had a 'vivid dream' that she was going to die in a car crash.
She went as far as making out a will, gifting her pony to someone etcc..
Couple of weeks later, it happened.
Like they say..."careful what you 'wish' for ".
"OBSERVATIONAL SELECTION", or
"COUNTING THE HITS AND IGNORING THE MISSES."
Every morning, thousands upon thousands of mothers send their
kids to school.
Every morning, thousands upon thousands of mothers worry something
terrible will happen to their kids.
Every afternoon, thousands upon thousands of mothers greet their
children as they return home from school.
The fear in the hearts of those mothers did precisely NOTHING
to those children.
Two guys, the same age. One has a mother who's terrified that
something will happen to him, all through his childhood.
The other has a mother who's concerned, but never obsessed
over the whole concept.
One of them is struck by a car and nearly killed.
His mother was NOT the one who worried-her kid was fine.
What was the difference?
Cars are not "fear-seeking-missiles."
Anecdotes don't "prove" a supposed universal "LAW".
However, they can DISprove something doesn't ALWAYS work....
The answer for me is fleeting as well but it has something to do with the difference between trusting and having Faith.
On his dealing with adversary tape Mrk G. gave one answer and I quote
"maybe you just didnt organize your life enough"
as a possible reason we face adversity.
I felt like I had been hit by a train, when I heard that. no hope..
again it goes back to the magic thinking religous folks engage in, like looking for a rainbow the answer must be quick and simple and magical in the sense something spectacular must be in the works. if only we knew the "right and correct" formula.
I admit to such thinking as a christian, at times.
partial grace, conditional grace, sometimes grace... many churches espouse such theory.
We live in the very grace of God and that concept is so NOT how we tend to think as humans who want to strive to succeed and please God.
We want to have the ability to be like God to own a part of who and What He must be in our life, we seek to save our self, and in the trying of all these "hopes and dreams and deeds and what do I do now?" deny the Saviour in all of what He Completed for mankind.
Again look at a small child as Jesus says we are to find HIM, do they strive and worry or even think about what the next need must be or to do?
no they do not they enjoy the company and rely on the Father to meet all the needs of his soul every minute day by day, knowing full well if they do not listen he/she will be protected and safe.
that is the love of God that is the grace and the life Jesus says we are to strive for.
God asks us to grow up but somehow when we do, we forget how to trust, how to love without fear and most of all why life is indeed so wonderful. Foe me it is because of the Grace, not sometimes not partial but the utter complete full disclosure of the very Grace we all live in .
Ex, regarding your question, sometimes in specific situations, there is no "revelation" - yet, as I look back over things, in hindsight, I can see God was somewhere in the situation.
We are to trust him that He knows our need for that situation, even if we don't yet.
I think TWI, with its control, taught people that we are to be always in "control." Well, the truth is - we aren't. That's why so much is by "faith" or trust.
I too have realized over time that TWI overcomplicated so many things, I can now understand why Jesus used the illustration of children, you really have to keep your trust in him simple, yet steadfast.
We trust the promises in the Word, which to me, aren't so much "specific" but more large - that Christ will return - no matter what, that he loves us no matter what, that he wants the best for us no matter what. Sure, if there's a specific situation, I pray about it, and give it to God and thank him for taking care of it in his way, but I think a more day-to-day walking in the knowledge of his love is maybe what God also had in mind for us. Its an unshakeable knowingness in your heart.
We trust the promises in the Word, which to me, aren't so much "specific" but more large - that Christ will return - no matter what, that he loves us no matter what, that he wants the best for us no matter what. Sure, if there's a specific situation, I pray about it, and give it to God and thank him for taking care of it in his way, but I think a more day-to-day walking in the knowledge of his love is maybe what God also had in mind for us. Its an unshakeable knowingness in your heart.
That's an incredible summary, Sunesis, and well said. I am the first to admit that my faiths and beliefs were shaken to the core (no pun intended) by my experiences. Everything that I was taught came into question. When I walked away, I wanted to walk away for good. But the root of trust never left, and even in some dark circumstances that happened after I left I had to acknowledge the bedrock belief that God exists, that He loves me unconditionally, and that He watches over me even when I fall on my face.
Sometimes its a daily struggle to take "me" out of the equation. I used to focus my energies on whether or not I "believed" strongly enough: now I'm putting the focus on a quiet "trust" and, as Sunesis said, a "knowingness". It's like white noise: it's there to cover the everyday distractions.
Top of the world, when I left, I kind of gave the Bible a "rest" for awhile. Like you, through that, I still had a bedrock core that no matter what, I could never give up God and Christ. Over time, I would get some thoughts, concepts, impressions and go to the Word. God continued to work with me even without "likeminded" TWI believers.
I have realized, we humans can not inhabit the spiritual, heavenly realms. We were not phyically made for that, although some think mysticism, knowledge, renewed mind, believing images of victory, etc. will get us there, or bend the spiritual realm to our will. Our job is to live here and now where we are, in the flesh, in the material world and yet, at the same time follow Christ. No wonder the angels desire to look into this. They must wonder what gives a human the ability to trust and follow that which they cannot see.
One day, we will have new spiritual bodies, we will be clothed with the proper clothing to enter into the spiritual realm. Christ has to bring us there, it is not of our doing, will, "believing," etc.
VP's teaching of "believing" makes it your fault if something goes wrong. Its a terrible burden - because you were not believing - something must be really wrong with you - you're such a failure in your own and God's eyes because you just can't do such a simple think like "believe." And of course, people learn to keep secrets and only project their smiley face. This is not God's will.
If something good happened in your life while you were in TWI then they wanted credit for it. If something bad happened then it was YOUR fault and there was no sharing of the blame. It was uniquely and solely explained in terms of the individual. Nice arrangement for them huh ? They get all the credit and none of the blame.
It was interesting that VPW couldn't successfully operate the so called law of believing to deliver himself from cancer. It is even more telling that "The Teacher" even got cancer in the first place. What was a nasty ole devil spirit doing running around in his body anyway ? Lets be real here. Had TWI been above board and straightforward about VPW's illness as it was happening then there would have been nothing but support and understanding. But no they covered it up to preserve the party line and to keep perpetuating a teaching that wasn't working not even for "the teacher". It blows my mind how insensitive and downright evil many Way leaders were because they helped keep a lid on this thing and yet they openly criticized believers in the field for being ill or having serious health issues that prevented them from going WOW or Corps.
I had a friend who couldn't complete his second WOW term because he got sick. He later died and people were going "well I guess his believing just wasn't there". Others question his "commitment" as if perhaps his illness wasn't evidence of being "double minded". But when Vic died no one said anything like that. They just worhshipped that guy even more and made up sick rationalizations like "well VPW believed himself to sleep". Lots of the remaining leaders (if not all of them) could have been up front about it all but they weren't. People sufferred in the field but just to keep PFAL on track those leaders wouldn't say "well maybe we got it wrong". No sir.... Keep running those classes, keep getting that money..... If it sounds like I'm mad its because I am. The so called Law of Believing was a very treachorous teaching and caused lots of grief in people's lives.
If something good happened in your life while you were in TWI then they wanted credit for it. If something bad happened then it was YOUR fault and there was no sharing of the blame. It was uniquely and solely explained in terms of the individual. Nice arrangement for them huh ? They get all the credit and none of the blame.
It was interesting that VPW couldn't successfully operate the so called law of believing to deliver himself from cancer. It is even more telling that "The Teacher" even got cancer in the first place. What was a nasty ole devil spirit doing running around in his body anyway ? Lets be real here.....
Yep......all credit to twi and no blame.
Also, when professional people came to twi........like Dr. Rxwlins and others.......twi liked to front them as much as possible. As if to say.......we (twi) are the reason for their success.
Rarily.....if ever......did some "lowly believer" apply those believing principles and rise to "great heights in the world's acclaim." Seems that most all who were professionals....were ALREADY that way......before they came to twi.
Ex, regarding your question, sometimes in specific situations, there is no "revelation" - yet, as I look back over things, in hindsight, I can see God was somewhere in the situation.
We are to trust him that He knows our need for that situation, even if we don't yet
Yes, exactly sunesis. I know, in my life, there have been and stil arel, times when I pray and seek the Lord about something, and the reply is very "specific." Sometimes, it's like the Lord gives me a little peak at what He is doing, and going to do in the future. And it's up to me, to "believe" come hell or high water. that He will work out what he says, even when circumstances tell me, there is no way.
The Joshua example you used fits for me here. So for me, there are times when we have to put total faith and trust in something very specific that he Lord has revealed to us. The key is, he has to first reveal his will, his heart, his intentions, etc. for the situation. It's not putting our total faith in what we wish for. But in his will coming to pass.
One problem I have with "the law of believing" is that the term does not appear in the Bible. Another is that it suggests a force so powerful even God must give way to it. If I remember right, VPW asks in PFAL if you've ever heard of someone setting the time of their death. Then he says God would have to change all the laws of the universe NOT to accommodate them.
"The New Bible Dictionary" J.D. Douglas, Editor, mentions this under "Faith": In the Greek Text the characteristic construction for saving faith is the Greek verb "pisteuo" followed by the preposition "eis". Literally, this means to "believe into." It denotes a faith, which, so to speak, takes a man out of himself, and puts him into Christ [used in John 3: 16 "whoever believes IN him"]. Sometimes "pisteuo" is followed by "epi" which has the idea of "upon" [used in Romans 4: 11 "Anyone who trusts IN him will never be put to shame"]. Faith has a firm basis – God!
I like Raf's post "I believe in God. He honors believing" because I think it's the right perspective on this thing called believing. Our belief must have the right object and basis. Proverbs 3: 5 says "Trust in the Lord" – not trust my own believing.
all these years of bible study and tapes and classes and this theory comes down to the fact of what I "believe" could be wrong.
Just wrong. I have heard everything from many different people on what the bible may mean in certain areas so I am never totaly clearon what it all may mean.
I never saw a chapter and verse about red drapes for example.
i see good god fearing die horrible deaths in the bible.... I also see people get healed so what if what Im believing for is just wrong.
i threw out this theory totaly. but I like the term of positive thinking , with god on our side always.
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Suda
I always laugh when I think about what ex10's mother once said about believing.
Why is it that every time one of my corps children believes God, it costs me money?
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allan w.
Ex..same reason we don't sit around waiting for God to tell us what to do every minute of the day.
We walk out on what has already been said.
TWI tried to tell us what to do every minute of every day, when even God wouldn't intrude like that !!
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Suda
ex10,
I think the differentiation between the general and the specific is made clear to us when God tells us something specific and personal. It can be related to a general promise.
For example, we know that God wants us to enjoy good health. But we can receive specific revelation concerning our own health. I remember vividly being awaken one night by God, and Him telling me to go get my heart checked. I was asymptomatic, and it surprised me. In the next day or so I had some slight discomfort in my upper back, and a bit of tingling in my arm.
But I obeyed, and went to the ER to have it checked out. They admitted me and did tests for two days and found nothing, told me it was in my head, and discharged me.
I had my results sent to another cardiologist to compare to a baseline from about 7 years previous. He said there may be an area of concern and scheduled me for a heart cath. The next morning at 6 a.m. I had double by-pass surgery. I had a congenital defect, some kind of bulbous growth, and 60% blockage. I knew my blood pressure had been up since February, and this was September. But if God had not told me, I would have never suspected anything was seriously wrong, nor would I have pushed the situation. But knowing God had told me, I kept pushing until it was checked out completely. Glad I did as my mother and uncle both dropped dead of sudden heart attacks. As we did not do autopsy's don't know if they had the same defect or not, but think it's quite possible.
This may not be what you were asking at all. But it seemed like it fit.
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ex10
Ohmigosh, suda. rofl
I forgot Mom used to say that. :lol:
And yes I know exactly what you mean about listening, and not doubting that what you know is more than what anybody else knows. ;)
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WordWolf
"OBSERVATIONAL SELECTION", or
"COUNTING THE HITS AND IGNORING THE MISSES."
Every morning, thousands upon thousands of mothers send their
kids to school.
Every morning, thousands upon thousands of mothers worry something
terrible will happen to their kids.
Every afternoon, thousands upon thousands of mothers greet their
children as they return home from school.
The fear in the hearts of those mothers did precisely NOTHING
to those children.
Two guys, the same age. One has a mother who's terrified that
something will happen to him, all through his childhood.
The other has a mother who's concerned, but never obsessed
over the whole concept.
One of them is struck by a car and nearly killed.
His mother was NOT the one who worried-her kid was fine.
What was the difference?
Cars are not "fear-seeking-missiles."
Anecdotes don't "prove" a supposed universal "LAW".
However, they can DISprove something doesn't ALWAYS work....
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pond
That is where I run into trouble as well ex10.
The answer for me is fleeting as well but it has something to do with the difference between trusting and having Faith.
On his dealing with adversary tape Mrk G. gave one answer and I quote
"maybe you just didnt organize your life enough"
as a possible reason we face adversity.
I felt like I had been hit by a train, when I heard that. no hope..
again it goes back to the magic thinking religous folks engage in, like looking for a rainbow the answer must be quick and simple and magical in the sense something spectacular must be in the works. if only we knew the "right and correct" formula.
I admit to such thinking as a christian, at times.
partial grace, conditional grace, sometimes grace... many churches espouse such theory.
We live in the very grace of God and that concept is so NOT how we tend to think as humans who want to strive to succeed and please God.
We want to have the ability to be like God to own a part of who and What He must be in our life, we seek to save our self, and in the trying of all these "hopes and dreams and deeds and what do I do now?" deny the Saviour in all of what He Completed for mankind.
Again look at a small child as Jesus says we are to find HIM, do they strive and worry or even think about what the next need must be or to do?
no they do not they enjoy the company and rely on the Father to meet all the needs of his soul every minute day by day, knowing full well if they do not listen he/she will be protected and safe.
that is the love of God that is the grace and the life Jesus says we are to strive for.
God asks us to grow up but somehow when we do, we forget how to trust, how to love without fear and most of all why life is indeed so wonderful. Foe me it is because of the Grace, not sometimes not partial but the utter complete full disclosure of the very Grace we all live in .
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Sunesis
Ex, regarding your question, sometimes in specific situations, there is no "revelation" - yet, as I look back over things, in hindsight, I can see God was somewhere in the situation.
We are to trust him that He knows our need for that situation, even if we don't yet.
I think TWI, with its control, taught people that we are to be always in "control." Well, the truth is - we aren't. That's why so much is by "faith" or trust.
I too have realized over time that TWI overcomplicated so many things, I can now understand why Jesus used the illustration of children, you really have to keep your trust in him simple, yet steadfast.
We trust the promises in the Word, which to me, aren't so much "specific" but more large - that Christ will return - no matter what, that he loves us no matter what, that he wants the best for us no matter what. Sure, if there's a specific situation, I pray about it, and give it to God and thank him for taking care of it in his way, but I think a more day-to-day walking in the knowledge of his love is maybe what God also had in mind for us. Its an unshakeable knowingness in your heart.
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topoftheworld
That's an incredible summary, Sunesis, and well said. I am the first to admit that my faiths and beliefs were shaken to the core (no pun intended) by my experiences. Everything that I was taught came into question. When I walked away, I wanted to walk away for good. But the root of trust never left, and even in some dark circumstances that happened after I left I had to acknowledge the bedrock belief that God exists, that He loves me unconditionally, and that He watches over me even when I fall on my face.
Sometimes its a daily struggle to take "me" out of the equation. I used to focus my energies on whether or not I "believed" strongly enough: now I'm putting the focus on a quiet "trust" and, as Sunesis said, a "knowingness". It's like white noise: it's there to cover the everyday distractions.
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Sunesis
Top of the world, when I left, I kind of gave the Bible a "rest" for awhile. Like you, through that, I still had a bedrock core that no matter what, I could never give up God and Christ. Over time, I would get some thoughts, concepts, impressions and go to the Word. God continued to work with me even without "likeminded" TWI believers.
I have realized, we humans can not inhabit the spiritual, heavenly realms. We were not phyically made for that, although some think mysticism, knowledge, renewed mind, believing images of victory, etc. will get us there, or bend the spiritual realm to our will. Our job is to live here and now where we are, in the flesh, in the material world and yet, at the same time follow Christ. No wonder the angels desire to look into this. They must wonder what gives a human the ability to trust and follow that which they cannot see.
One day, we will have new spiritual bodies, we will be clothed with the proper clothing to enter into the spiritual realm. Christ has to bring us there, it is not of our doing, will, "believing," etc.
VP's teaching of "believing" makes it your fault if something goes wrong. Its a terrible burden - because you were not believing - something must be really wrong with you - you're such a failure in your own and God's eyes because you just can't do such a simple think like "believe." And of course, people learn to keep secrets and only project their smiley face. This is not God's will.
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diazbro
If something good happened in your life while you were in TWI then they wanted credit for it. If something bad happened then it was YOUR fault and there was no sharing of the blame. It was uniquely and solely explained in terms of the individual. Nice arrangement for them huh ? They get all the credit and none of the blame.
It was interesting that VPW couldn't successfully operate the so called law of believing to deliver himself from cancer. It is even more telling that "The Teacher" even got cancer in the first place. What was a nasty ole devil spirit doing running around in his body anyway ? Lets be real here. Had TWI been above board and straightforward about VPW's illness as it was happening then there would have been nothing but support and understanding. But no they covered it up to preserve the party line and to keep perpetuating a teaching that wasn't working not even for "the teacher". It blows my mind how insensitive and downright evil many Way leaders were because they helped keep a lid on this thing and yet they openly criticized believers in the field for being ill or having serious health issues that prevented them from going WOW or Corps.
I had a friend who couldn't complete his second WOW term because he got sick. He later died and people were going "well I guess his believing just wasn't there". Others question his "commitment" as if perhaps his illness wasn't evidence of being "double minded". But when Vic died no one said anything like that. They just worhshipped that guy even more and made up sick rationalizations like "well VPW believed himself to sleep". Lots of the remaining leaders (if not all of them) could have been up front about it all but they weren't. People sufferred in the field but just to keep PFAL on track those leaders wouldn't say "well maybe we got it wrong". No sir.... Keep running those classes, keep getting that money..... If it sounds like I'm mad its because I am. The so called Law of Believing was a very treachorous teaching and caused lots of grief in people's lives.
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act2
I am pondering so many things, but I want to say that this is a very TIMELY thread.
Raf has a great study on his website livingepistlessociety.org.
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skyrider
Yep......all credit to twi and no blame.
Also, when professional people came to twi........like Dr. Rxwlins and others.......twi liked to front them as much as possible. As if to say.......we (twi) are the reason for their success.
Rarily.....if ever......did some "lowly believer" apply those believing principles and rise to "great heights in the world's acclaim." Seems that most all who were professionals....were ALREADY that way......before they came to twi.
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ex10
Yes, exactly sunesis. I know, in my life, there have been and stil arel, times when I pray and seek the Lord about something, and the reply is very "specific." Sometimes, it's like the Lord gives me a little peak at what He is doing, and going to do in the future. And it's up to me, to "believe" come hell or high water. that He will work out what he says, even when circumstances tell me, there is no way.
The Joshua example you used fits for me here. So for me, there are times when we have to put total faith and trust in something very specific that he Lord has revealed to us. The key is, he has to first reveal his will, his heart, his intentions, etc. for the situation. It's not putting our total faith in what we wish for. But in his will coming to pass.
I hope this makes sense. :)
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plinio
Hallo to everyone.
I am sorry for my terrible english. I'm Italian and I'm very happy to be here with you.
I belive in love. I don't belive in beliving. I beliving in God and in the power of Love.
Ciao
Plinio
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Sunesis
Ex10 - yes, it makes total sense!
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markomalley
Benvenuto a Greasespot!
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WordWolf
Hello.
Your English is fine.
:)
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
plinio
welcome
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T-Bone
One problem I have with "the law of believing" is that the term does not appear in the Bible. Another is that it suggests a force so powerful even God must give way to it. If I remember right, VPW asks in PFAL if you've ever heard of someone setting the time of their death. Then he says God would have to change all the laws of the universe NOT to accommodate them.
"The New Bible Dictionary" J.D. Douglas, Editor, mentions this under "Faith": In the Greek Text the characteristic construction for saving faith is the Greek verb "pisteuo" followed by the preposition "eis". Literally, this means to "believe into." It denotes a faith, which, so to speak, takes a man out of himself, and puts him into Christ [used in John 3: 16 "whoever believes IN him"]. Sometimes "pisteuo" is followed by "epi" which has the idea of "upon" [used in Romans 4: 11 "Anyone who trusts IN him will never be put to shame"]. Faith has a firm basis – God!
I like Raf's post "I believe in God. He honors believing" because I think it's the right perspective on this thing called believing. Our belief must have the right object and basis. Proverbs 3: 5 says "Trust in the Lord" – not trust my own believing.
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pond
all these years of bible study and tapes and classes and this theory comes down to the fact of what I "believe" could be wrong.
Just wrong. I have heard everything from many different people on what the bible may mean in certain areas so I am never totaly clearon what it all may mean.
I never saw a chapter and verse about red drapes for example.
i see good god fearing die horrible deaths in the bible.... I also see people get healed so what if what Im believing for is just wrong.
i threw out this theory totaly. but I like the term of positive thinking , with god on our side always.
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