What gets Wierwillites the Angriest?

[Outin88.]

"He still taught the Word"

There's an argument to be made that he didn't exactly do that.

People like Eagle, and many others, have challenged, not Wierwille's "lifestyle", but what he actually taught.

What I have seen in some staunch Wierwillites is an equating of Wierwille's doctrine with their own worth. After all, they have based years of their lives, and built their whole belief system, their whole way of looking at the world and "The Word", on Wierwille's teachings. In most cases, Wierwille and PFAL was the first and only thing to make any sense of God and the bible.

Many Wierwillites therefore see a questioning of Wierwille's conclusions as a questioning of their own judgement. If Wierwille is wrong, then they are wrong as well. Who wants to see what they have based their whole life upon undermined? What's left then?

Now many Wierwillites have questioned small parts of the PFAL canon, or reworked insignificant sections, thereby convincing themselves that they can think and do biblical research, while retaining that core of Wierwillism like a security blanket.

It's no surprise that some would shun you, Eagle.

Oakspear, your posts have been hot lately, you really nailed it on this one. Well said.

This is something I've noticed as well.

One of the hardest things for some people, is to admit they are or were wrong. Plus as Dale Carnegie said "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still" What it comes down to is pride, their too proud to admit they are/were wrong.

The other side of this as I see it is spiritual, imo, Mr. Wierwille is an idol to some wierwillites, his doctrines are like Gods word to some of them.

Eagle, I applaud your efforts to want to share the truth and help people become free. But don't take it personally if they won't listen, remember we do have an adversary, and as Oak said;

"Many Wierwillites therefore see a questioning of Wierwille's conclusions as a questioning of their own judgement. If Wierwille is wrong, then they are wrong as well."

My wife has voluteered at a battlered womens shelter, and has seen women that have been mentally and physically abused, yet sometimes go back to their abusive husband. We can see clearly that these abused women should leave him, but they have such low self esteem. We try to help them to leave the abuser, but they sometimes go back. They say things like, but he loves me, or he really is a good man, you just don't understand him. They sometimes equate their self worth with this abusive man imo.

As for some wierwillites as Oaks said.

"What I have seen in some staunch Wierwillites is an equating of Wierwille's doctrine with their own worth."

Eagle, I understand your frustration. It gets frustrating seeing abused women go back, just as it does with some of these wierwillites when they won't listen and free themselves from the idol. I just love them up as best as I can and try to help them see the idol, the erroneous doctrines etc. I try to explain the truth as best as I can and I pray for them.

Edited February 16, 2006 by Outin88.

[TheInvisibleDan]

God.

[diazbro]

Well I don't think that what VPW was necessarily "the word of god" - I mean he taught it to the extent that Leonard, Stiles, Bullinger, Kenyon, et al taught "the word" since those were his sources (albeit uncredited).

Despite what TWI wanted you to believe, there are and were lots of journeymen clergy out there who deliver a powerful biblical message but you don't hear much about these people because they didn't seek the adulation and glory of a generation as did VPW. I've met some guys who put in a lifetime of service to the church and even at 80 years of age still visit the sick, comfort the grieving, volunteer whenver they can. They don't ask for a dime ! Not one red cent and they work like their lives depend on it ! Thats service, dedication. They don't do it to get "rewards at the bema" like Way folk do. (God, how self serving is that ?). TWI doesn't help anyone who doesn't pony up money to be in the club and this all started with the "Great" VPW.

TWI has only conptempt for society at large and exhibits a decidedly unchristian attitude towards those who don't follow TWI party line. That started with ole Vic so I don't even see how he taught "the word". You had to pay to hear it and that became a never ending theme throughout his existence. Money for the word. I cannot think of a more devilish approach. This of course isn't unique to TWI as lots of con men evangelists lay it on thick but VPW is no different than these guys. They are all worthy of a specialized form of punishment reserved for those who attempt to use the bible and its message for personal financial gain.

Edited February 16, 2006 by diazbro

[oldiesman]

The other side of this as I see it is spiritual, imo, Mr. Wierwille is their idol, his doctrines are like Gods word to them.

You seem to base your belief on the false accusation that it is idolatry that makes us hold fast to the truths we have learned.

I hold fast to them because for one, they make sense and they work, for me, and also from some biblical admonition to "prove all things, hold fast that which is good".

We learned lots of good things in twi.

Golly, if we all went around accusing others of idolatry because we hold fast certain truths, we'd be calling each other idolators all day long. But I don't play that game, it's just a waste of time.

Surely there are better things for us to do, like pray for each other; ... just one thing we learned in twi that works.

Edited February 16, 2006 by oldiesman

[Outin88.]

Okay Oldies, I went back and edited my post stating that some wierwillites idolzie him.

That means that I believe not all wierwillites idolize him. Okay?

I'll also state for the record that I believe some of the doctrines taught by Mr. Wierwille are correct, and some are erroneous. So no I'm not equating beleiving all VPW's doctrines with idolitry per se.

But I have known some hard corp wierwillites to idolize VP as the MOG, I used to be one of them, and some truly believe everything he taught was like it was God's word which is idolitry imo.

I know you believe much of what Mr. Wierwille taught to be true, but I've seen you agree at times, though rarely, that Wierwille was wrong in some of his doctrines and practices, so if your wondering I don't believe you idolize him. I think you, Oldies as well as Allan and John I am respects much of what he taught but I don't believe any of you idolize him. I see you three more as apologist towards his doctrines, and as WordWolf pointed out in another thread, thats not a negative word. Okay?

Edited February 16, 2006 by Outin88.

[coolchef1248 @adelphia.net]

of course some things ole cornfield vic taught us was true

he was reading from the bible wasn't he?

but to rever and respect a man who used gods word to ....am i going to say it?

yes i am

@(%* his followers is not right thinking

we all learned things from ole vic and one of them is to not screw over people

or at least i hope we learned it

[johniam]

Hmm. I thought this thread was supposed to be about the anger of Wierwillites; looks to me like it's about the anger of Wierwille haters.

[diazbro]

Hmm. I thought this thread was supposed to be about the anger of Wierwillites; looks to me like it's about the anger of Wierwille haters.

Well John you are definitely an authority on anger having perfected the concept of righteous anger.

[ChasUFarley]

What I wonder about as I read this is... Would VPW have WANTED a sect called 'Wierwillelites'?

I never met the man, but I know he didn't even want his name on the WOW Auditorium - not that that stopped a balding Okie from putting it there after he died. I don't think he'd have wanted that. Maybe I'm wrong - so what? I'm willing to go there - it's my right.

The common thread that all of us have on THIS thread is that we were all involved with TWI at some point. At some time, something about that organization scratched our itch spiritually. Some people have chosen to move on to other demoniations. Some have chosen to stick to what VPW taught. Some have denounced everything - hey, where did Larry P go? - Anyhow, like anything else in life - from Amway, to eBay, to Southern Baptist, and so on, you'll have your share of zealous people.

So, why is it a problem? I don't get it.

Do I think that PFAL and VPW are sacred cows? No. If I did, I wouldn't post here.

Am I glad I took PFAL? Heck, yes. Sure beat what that bald Okie was promoting - lemme tell you. If you never had the pleasure or pain of sitting through a WOAP class, it was spiritual fingernails on a blackboard.

Do I respect VPW? Tough question. I respect his work, as he introduced me to many theologians that I never would have found on my own, most likely, and did make the Bible more understandable though his teachings. After learning about some of the things he did - yes, he could be a real SOB - I know my rose colored glasses fell off along time ago. In all, I would have to say that my life was better for having had PFAL and so yes, I do have some respect for him.

However, for the people who feel otherwise, I also respect their right to their opinion - perhaps they have better reason for holding stronger emotions against VPW than I do - that's their right. So, why is it a problem? I don't get it....

[allan w.]

Ditto to what Chas, Oldies, JohnIam said...

and Outin88 (what can I say, I'm a lazy poster !!)

[Belle]

However, for the people who feel otherwise, I also respect their right to their opinion - perhaps they have better reason for holding stronger emotions against VPW than I do - that's their right. So, why is it a problem? I don't get it....

and therein lies the rub, Chas. You allow people to disagree without being disagreeable. You do not pass judgement on those who disagree with you. You do not label, call names, follow people around the boards attacking them and their beliefs. ;) You have a mature, healthy respect for others and their rights to believe what they want and their right to share their thoughts here at the Gspot.

[GrouchoMarxJr]

For the glassy eyed followers who spent time with veepee, it was MORE than just his doctrinal teachings from the bible...wierwille would go on and on spewing his opinions on everything from who is the greatest tenor in the world, to the proper way to pull taffy...he had opinions on Willie Nelson, Ronald Reagan, Wilt Chamberlain, and dozens of others...he would talk of his favorite type of sausage, the best way to grow carrots, and why fire wood should be stacked a certain way...the guy was constantly giving his opinions on things...so what you say?...

...The true wierwillites hung on every word he said! If Vic thought that polyester jackets were the way to go, everybody there would go out and buy one. Remember the old saying?..."A suggestion is tantamount to an order"...If Vic stated his opinion on something...there would be a certain number of folks who would adopt the same opinion immediately. For too many twiers, Vic took the place of their absent brain...

...talk about idolatry! They worshipped the ground he walked on...every word that came out of his mouth...people were ooohing and aaahing. Looking back, it was pitiful.

[justloafing]

Ditto to what Chas, Oldies, JohnIam said...

This thread is about what pi$$es off the wierwilltwits. And you allan are trying to make it the other way around. You may want to start your own thread. IMO there is nothing that wiewlle did to make a half shabby cult so he could get laid. Look at the history of twi and say it is not true. To many people telling the same thing for it not to be true. NOTHING GOOD ABOUT IT. ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING

[diazbro]

What I think is interesting here is that john didn't challenge anything that I said about VPW so I'll take it that he concedes my points.

So why would he or any VPW supporter continue to deify a charlatan, plaigirist, and glory hound ? After all thats what VPW was.

Edited February 17, 2006 by diazbro

[ChasUFarley]

Groucho -- I'm sure you're right - I got involved with TWI about 2-3 years after VPW's death. I remember how badly LCM hated it when people acted like VPW - he put a ban on people breaking up Life Savers candies because I guess that's what VPW did (this was before Altoids were the ministry endorsed breath mint.) (All the better for melting your face with, my dear!) When I was in, it was everyone wanting to be like LCM. Personally, I think VPW was easier to tolerate out of the two of them.

Justloafing -- Maybe it's none of my biz - blow this off if you want - but how long were you in? Why did you get involved? Were you a wayfer brat who had no choice but to go along with the parental units on staff, in the WC, or whatever? In otherwords, were you involved outside of your own freewill choice? Just honestly curious, as I don't recall your story...

[diazbro]

We learned lots of good things in twi.

Yep. Such as there are men who would exalt themselves and seek the adulation and gloiry that is due only to God.

I learned that VPW was a thief and an excellent example of a counterfeit for a man of god.

Edited February 17, 2006 by diazbro

[justloafing]

Justloafing -- Maybe it's none of my biz - blow this off if you want - but how long were you in? Why did you get involved? Were you a wayfer brat who had no choice but to go along with the parental units on staff, in the WC, or whatever? In otherwords, were you involved outside of your own freewill choice? Just honestly curious, as I don't recall your story...

This maybe a little long Chas but you asked :)

As a kid I went to sunday school and church with my mom as did my brother and sister. My father was agnostic so he did not go but never said anything bad about us going.

Well when my mom got divorsed and then remarried 2 years later. She married another agnostic person and church and sunday school stopped. I was 12 when she re-married. My Sundays were filled with sailboat racing during the summer and skiing in the winter. At this point in time I did believe in God but never knew what to make out of the whole deal.

Then came my high school years when the alcohol and drugs crept into my life. They became mine and my friends god. We lived for them. Anything we could get we did.

Push foward a few years.................thru college and post grad college my life style did not change.

One day on a job (construction) and after a bad car accident(I was drunk and high. I should have died and would have if I was wearing a seatbelt). I walked away with 2 stiches over my eye and bumps and bruises. Did not even get a DWI. I think the cop felt sorry for me. That happened in 1979. The first time I really started thinking about God again. Then the spring of 1980 I was wittnessed to. I went to twig.

I absolutley loved it. It (twig) was fun and their were people that came from all walks of life. The people in the twig seemed to really enjoy life and I wanted that. I wanted to go as far as I could as fast as I could in twi. I wanted to seve God with all of my heart. There was no way anyone was going to stop me. I took all the classes and went 15th corps.

While in res. I was seeing things I really did not think were of God. I also had been told that there my have been things going on in the top leadership that was so far "off the Word". I forged ahead blindly and believed everything that was taught. Even though I did not understand some things. I thought I would see those things the more I grew.

I went WOW my interm year. Things just seemed bad in the late spring of my WOW year. We were running a PFAL Class and the first session we only had 6 people show up (min. those days were 7). The person that could not make the first session assured me she would would make it up and take the rest of the class.

Cont.

Edited February 17, 2006 by justloafing

[coolchef1248 @adelphia.net]

i think this would *%^#* ole vic's followers off

he was plain and simply a charlaten

in it for his own selfish reasons{you know them}

a thief of other peoples works thief yes not plagerising

a plane old corn field crook!

[justloafing]

Well we had a limb meeting to go to after the first session. V*&&e Fin*&%^&n was the limb cord of NY. While watching the teaching he sounded really strange. This was right after he came back from HQ. He reemed my arse out about starting a class with 6 people in it. We had gotten along pretty well before this. Ohh and I should mention that my grandmother had died shortly before and I had to go to her funeral. Well that was not a fun subject with them. They almost made me feel like I was breaking my Wow commitment for going. Well the next day after the reamming out about the Class I left twi for good. Later I found out that the limb cords. were read POP. No wonder V*(ce was on a short rope.

I went from 1986 - 2000 thinking that twi was Gods ministry still :blink: . I found WayDale one night and went right to the chat. I was reading in the chat room how bad twi was. I chimed in saying something to the effect of "get over it". Well that stirred up the group . I was called everything from an innie to a waygb. Pa*l A!!en called me into a private chat. He asked me to read the forums. I did exactly what he asked. I was shocked by what I read. To many storys there almost exacty the same for them not to be true. I had to decide what was true. I remembered what I was told while still in and remembered my doubts while I was going through the in res. program. I made my choice to never ever believe a word that they taught me. I can read the bible and believe what it teaches me to this day but I will never trust another word that comes out of twi's mouth, before I went in nor after. That is why I hate twi. Yes I hold a grudge and wont forget and why to this day on these forums or my every day life will not say they did me or any one else right.

[Eagle]

Anybody know from experience what causes the Wierwillites to start shunning people? In my experience it could be anything contrary to PFAL, but the Blue Book in many of my emails seemed to be the sore spot, like it was another Bible or THE BIBLE.

I didn't talk about Wierwille's personal life that much because I have done things I regret in my own life. I prefer to give him a pass on those things, but doctrinal differences are fair game. VPW did teach the Word, though I disagree with a lot of what he taught now. I think he has his rewards for that. As far as his personal life, I leave that between he and God.

I'll be out of town for this coming weekend enjoying a Bed and Breakfast anniversary with my wife, so I might not be seen posting here for three to four days. It will be interesting to read this thread when we get back. The feedback is incredible.

Eagle

[excathedra]

i've done plenty of things in my life i regret, but i still don't give him a pass.... i don't think i'll ever try to rationalize his disgusting actions. did that for too too long. (not that you were saying that, eagle)

as far as rewards, that subject kind of gives me the creeps. i guess i'm not a believing believer anymore

god is still nice to me though :)

[mstar1]

Anybody know from experience what causes the Wierwillites to start shunning people?

Part of their doctrine is that They have no friends when it comes to the word

My experience with the hardcore wierwille believers is that anything that is outside of the narrow confines of what they have been taught is acceptable and actually makes them have to think or question their own assumptions makes them very very uncomfortable and exasperated.

Many will cut you off as a manner of not having to deal with challenges to their own belief structure

[WordWolf]

What I wonder about as I read this is... Would VPW have WANTED a sect called 'Wierwillelites'?

I never met the man, but I know he didn't even want his name on the WOW Auditorium - not that that stopped a balding Okie from putting it there after he died. I don't think he'd have wanted that. Maybe I'm wrong - so what? I'm willing to go there - it's my right.

He may not have wanted the auditorium named after him,

but I think he thought of twi AS Wierwillites without calling them that.

Think about it.

The PFAL class started with another man's class with vpw's name

slapped on it. Why?

So it could be about him.

The White Book originally mentioned another (anonymous) man taught

Wierwille-who vpw clearly remembered was JE Stiles, and later

editions edit any mention of another man out-

despite Stiles' book being the original White Book with vpw's name

slapped on it. Why?

So it could be about him.

He went to Haight-Ashbury personally and put forth he had a unique

knowledge of the Bible, and convinced some of them to be his

advertising arm. Great Christians acted on both coasts, and people

believed when they saw THEM in action. Once the Great Christians

brought the numbers in, vpw kicked them out, and ordered all

authority to come FROM him, and all money to go TO him.

Why?

So it could be about him.

Oh, and bring in the money.

Less than 1% of twi income ever went out ANYPLACE to benefit people.

And of that, most of it was to cover twi mistakes-

like paying for rehab for injured Christians.

vpw lacked ANY formal training in programs and experience in

programs, but wasted no time setting up programs-all of which

were designed to make a profit. Which, of course, they did.

Anyone who entered those programs-which were written or

verbal "gentlemen's" agreements-was required to live up to

their agreements, but vpw reserved the option of kicking them

out if they failed to grovel sufficiently. He exercised this option

at least twice-once with the Zero Corps and once which is

documented in "VP and Me." (That incident apparently was what

lcm drew on when he demanded HIS loyalty oath.)

Anybody who was around when he was in one of his GOOD moods

heard him call everybody in twi-or whichever portion was present-

"MY KIDS". That one's even in TW:LiL. He also called himself

"THE TEACHER" years before PFAL was stolen from Leonard.

He continued this IN PFAL. Why?

So it could be about him.

So, would vpw want the label?

I think he'd HATE the label.

Did he want the blind obedience implicit in such a label,

without the label?

I think that's what he wanted ALL ALONG, and acted accordingly.

Of course, this is my opinion, but it appears to fit the facts.

Does it fit his PUBLIC IMAGE? NO. That was of him being an

"aw shucks" homespun humble teacher who just happened to

have the most special revelation since the First Century Christians

stopped writing. However, the discrepancy between Wierwille the

Public Image and Wierwille the Man He Was When He Thought

No One Was Looking...is massive.

The common thread that all of us have on THIS thread is that we were all involved with TWI at some point. At some time, something about that organization scratched our itch spiritually.

Correct.

Some of us, however, feel that the deliberate deceptions were wrong,

and the felonies they covered were worse, and feel vpw was thus

not worthy to be considered a leader at ANY level.

Some people have chosen to move on to other demoniations. Some have chosen to stick to what VPW taught. Some have denounced everything - hey, where did Larry P go? - Anyhow, like anything else in life - from Amway, to eBay, to Southern Baptist, and so on, you'll have your share of zealous people.

So, why is it a problem? I don't get it.

Do I think that PFAL and VPW are sacred cows? No. If I did, I wouldn't post here.

That's true of you but not of SOME people.

To challenge anything in pfal, to challenge vpw's doctrine, is tantamount

to challenging the Bible, since it challenges their understanding OF the

Bible, and their own self-image as a Bible-believer.

Now, everyone ELSE can have civil discussions on content and meaning,

but those with a hair-trigger can derail a nice conversation.

Am I glad I took PFAL? Heck, yes. Sure beat what that bald Okie was promoting - lemme tell you. If you never had the pleasure or pain of sitting through a WOAP class, it was spiritual fingernails on a blackboard.

Do I respect VPW? Tough question. I respect his work, as he introduced me to many theologians that I never would have found on my own, most likely, and did make the Bible more understandable though his teachings. After learning about some of the things he did - yes, he could be a real SOB - I know my rose colored glasses fell off along time ago. In all, I would have to say that my life was better for having had PFAL and so yes, I do have some respect for him.

However, for the people who feel otherwise, I also respect their right to their opinion - perhaps they have better reason for holding stronger emotions against VPW than I do - that's their right. So, why is it a problem? I don't get it....

Well,

with you it is not a problem. (Or if it is, it's a little problem and you function

as a normal citizen.)

With a few, this IS a problem.

[FreeFromCults]

What gets Wiervillites the Angriest?

That's simple. Talk bad about VPW. Show them sources that he was a plagiarizer and a philanderer who cheated on his wife. Show them sources that he didn't pass away quietly, he succumbed to a "Devil Spirit", Cancer. Is my list short? Please feel free to add my list.

As for me, I feel those who suffered when he was the "MOG" are the ones who have more to say about him just like I can say bad things about TWI under LCM (the MOGFART when I was an innie).

And to me, Loy Boy and all of his wannabes and worshippers can all go f**k themselves.

Edited February 17, 2006 by FreeFromCults

[oldiesman]

Anybody know from experience what causes the Wierwillites to start shunning people? In my experience it could be anything contrary to PFAL, but the Blue Book in many of my emails seemed to be the sore spot, like it was another Bible or THE BIBLE.

Eagle, you are free to pm or email me anytime.