What happened to the word??

[topoftheworld]

Alright, then, back to the subject you want to discuss.

What have you seen in the four chapters of Roman that you would like to share?

[ckmkeon]

Alright, then, back to the subject you want to discuss.

What have you seen in the four chapters of Roman that you would like to share?

In Romans I learned about the judgement of god is the way it is supposed to be not of man. I learned in Thessalonains about the hope of christ and the return and that we are saved from the coming wrath. I have also learned that Revelations is not important to us. My teacher read 4 chapters of Romans a day read the whole book of romans in a week and then read romans 4 times

godbless

ckmckeon

Edited February 21, 2006 by ckmkeon

[topoftheworld]

Alrighty, then. Thank you for sharing.

[socks]

Hi! What happened to the Word? Well, there's this guy Jesus -

Long gone from the planet now, but said to be coming back! And He is the Word.

In John, Jesus Christ is referred to as The Word, the "logos". In fact, it's John who has given us this specific reference to Christ as "the logos", indeed, the ... living ... word of God. Paul refers to "the Word" in a very specific way too - the logos of God that was given to men to learn and know. He often referred in his writings to the Old Testament as well as what he knew by "revelation of Jesus Christ" - the gospel of grace that he himself taught very specifically as the "one body" formed of Christ's redemption that was to be made up of all men and women regardless of their heritage - both Jews and Gentiles, all people. All of this and more was and is "the word".

That one body = undoubtedly one of the most important and radical things that Paul taught and it wasn't anything that was clearly foretold or written about in the O.T. So indeed, Paul's epistles carry that information that we may take for granted now as Christians but that was very new and very revolutionary in his day. And it came to him, Peter, others as God revealed it to them.

The essence of that one body can be learned about by reading the espistles, yes. But it can only be lived and enjoyed by living "in Christ". As the law was a "schoolmaster", to Christ, Christ is our Pastor to bring us to God. It's in the living relationship we can have that the promise of God, His mind, reasoning, intents - the "logos" is fully realized and known.

In John 1:17 and 18 he wrote - For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Jesus Christ declared God, made Him known, unfolded God to us, He expounded on God, so to speak. Not only in what He said and taught, but by what He did. God was known before Jesus Christ, but not the way that Jesus showed him to us. Jesus Christ was literally "God with us", Emmanuel, and He is God with us still and His "word" in us.

ckmkeon, I would never fault you or anyone for reading the bible. I'd be cautious if I were you what you take verbatim from a "teacher" though. If someone tells you Revelations isn't important, how do you know that? Because it is said to talk about future events? The future's coming my friend - sooner or later, for all of us.

A lot of Way-taught teachers avoid Revelations because it's difficult to understand and was never taught regularly or in detail to them, so they're ignorant as to what it has to say. Same with the Old Testament.

There's nothing wrong with having teachers, everyone has to learn. I would suggest you not get attached to permanently to one though, as no one teacher can teach on everything, you're going to need some variety. That's just a suggestion though, and one you may already be doing, dunno.

Edited February 21, 2006 by socks

[allan w.]

I like 'the seventies show'..it rocks ! Fess is just the funniest.

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

Dear CMcKeon, Your attitude to Mark and Coolchief is uncalled for, childish and immature. Besides some of the responses were not off topic. I am the Lutheran ex-way poster and yes Jesus Christ, not the Bible is the only Word of God. True Christianity never worships a book, even if it has truth. At least recently Mike, Allan,

Jonitham, and Oldiesman have finally started to grow up. Maybe you need to pm Pawtuckett. Also, don't run sentences together. In other words, use punctuation and spellcheck.

[ckmkeon]

Hi! What happened to the Word? Well, there's this guy Jesus -

ckmkeon, I would never fault you or anyone for reading the bible. I'd be cautious if I were you what you take verbatim from a "teacher" though. If someone tells you Revelations isn't important, how do you know that? Because it is said to talk about future events? The future's coming my friend - sooner or later, for all of us.

Lets start with this papragraph it caught my eye and I will post to the others soon. Why do you think it is important to read Revelations?? When A few books back you look in Thessanlonians 1st it says We are saved from the wrath to come,(I Thess 1:10) then in the same book it says Jesus will descend from heaven to get us( I Thess 4:16,17). So then what more is for me to learn in Revelations, yes alll scripture is given by inspiration of god(II Tim 3:16) if there is a particular truth in Revelations that I should read then please point it out. :)

God Bless

ckmckeon

[markomalley]

Dear CMcKeon, Your attitude to Mark and Coolchief is uncalled for, childish and immature. Besides some of the responses were not off topic. I am the Lutheran ex-way poster and yes Jesus Christ, not the Bible is the only Word of God. True Christianity never worships a book, even if it has truth. At least recently Mike, Allan,

Jonitham, and Oldiesman have finally started to grow up. Maybe you need to pm Pawtuckett. Also, don't run sentences together. In other words, use punctuation and spellcheck.

Thomas,

Thanks , but I think his agenda is fairly obvious to everybody here...

[outofdafog]

ckmkeon - you are not the first person who has come here and tried to "redeem" us all. I know you feel that is your mission right now. Bring us back to "the rightly divided word". Its okay that we are not in the ministry anymore in your eyes (because apparently you are not either) but gosh don't throw all the PFAL teachings down the drain dontcha know. Doctinal forums are available for you to hash and re-hash the doctrines of the Way. See nobody is left out.

[Oakspear]

By the way, giving examples and analogies to illustrate a point is not off topic.

[ckmkeon]

Dear CMcKeon, Your attitude to Mark and Coolchief is uncalled for, childish and immature. Besides some of the responses were not off topic. I am the Lutheran ex-way poster and yes Jesus Christ, not the Bible is the only Word of God. True Christianity never worships a book, even if it has truth. At least recently Mike, Allan,

Jonitham, and Oldiesman have finally started to grow up. Maybe you need to pm Pawtuckett. Also, don't run sentences together. In other words, use punctuation and spellcheck.

I am so sorry my english teacher went on a lunch break. Do you have something to discuss or did you write me for what?? You called me childish, immature, maybe I should grow up, and for some reason you talk about sentence structure. (Thats right I put a period in front of an I) I didn't hear anything about The Way except that you are a Lutheran ex-way poster. Nothing about God, Jesus, TWI, VPW, and LCM. Then if Christianity doesn't worship books then so what, I never said they did, I said the book of the bible is truth.

well I hope that this is puunctual and spelled correctly enough for you

God Bless,

ckmckeon

Thomas,

Thanks , but I think his agenda is fairly obvious to everybody here...

If I did say something that was hurtful please accept my apologies I am truly sorry.

God Bless :)

ckmckeon

[ckmkeon]

There's nothing wrong with having teachers, everyone has to learn. I would suggest you not get attached to permanently to one though, as no one teacher can teach on everything, you're going to need some variety. That's just a suggestion though, and one you may already be doing, dunno.

Well this teacher I have read 4 chapters of romans a day read the whole book in a week read the book 4 times in a month and he did it for 6 months. It is really hard not to get attached he is my father. I have variety also some of the old teaching of VPW. for example University of Life Thessalonians, PFAL Class and 12 books written by VPW. I have teaching tapes from The way(VPW). I have 3 local teacher here who teach in different fields.

godbless

ckmckeon

[WordWolf]

Well I am glad we have found the catholic of the group I said I don't care how many women say Chris Geer drugged them what I mean about catholic who else misquotes so bad I believe that if you start in Romans through Thessalonians since I believe it is the most important the whole bible is important I am reading 4 chapters of romans a day

God Bless

ckmckeon

For those who missed it, this should sound familiar.

A) I don't care about the PEOPLE that were hurt in God's name by the

evil actions of those people who supposedly were leaders in God's

name and claimed to make God known to us.

B) What I DO care about is the Bible, which I read everyday.

Mechanical knowledge of the Bible isn't a bad thing,

but it is only "spiritual kindergarten".

Until you care for God's people, you're not ready for primetime.

vpw himself quoted that people don't care what you know,

until they know that you care.

I Corinthians says that knowledge puffs up,

but God's Love BUILDS up.

[markomalley]

If I did say something that was hurtful please accept my apologies I am truly sorry.

God Bless :)

ckmckeon

No problems. You're only able to preach what you've learned.

[ckmkeon]

While I thought (Part A from wordwolf) was a good reading I think by now everybody who was hurt by the way in 1980 should have forgiven the people who sinned against them( I King 8:50). I do care but please enough is enough it was 30 years ago it is time to forgive and forget.

I do try to read the bible I believe it holds the truth.

godbless,

ckmckeon

Edited February 21, 2006 by ckmkeon

[outofdafog]

While I thought (Part A from wordwolf) was a good reading I think by now everybody who was hurt by the way in 1980 should have forgiven the people who sinned against them( I King 8:50). I do care but please enough is enough it was 30 years ago it is time to forgive and forget.

I do try to read the bible I believe it holds the truth.

godbless,

ckmckeon

What about the people who were sinned against last week, the week before, last year, 5 years ago, six years ago, today..................

I understand what you are trying to say to us, but I think you need to do what some other posters suggested. Visit around the forums a little bit, read what is written (that should ring a bell), check it out before you jump in head first and begin to judge us (which you are doing by the way) even though you are saying that only God can judge us.

If you haven't perused the forums how can you possibly know what some of the people went through. And just because you did not experience it does not make their experience any less valid or mean THAT IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. (emphasis here, not yelling.) If you read the bible and believe it holds the truth, then take off your Way blinders and listen to the heartfelt grievences that some have experienced and love with the love of God. God is big enough to redeem us if we need it, you don't have to save us from ourselves. Allow that burden to be lifted from your shoulders.

[WordWolf]

I think by now everybody who was hurt by the way in 1980 should have forgiven the people who sinned against them( I King 8:50). I do care but please enough is enough it was 30 years ago it is time to forgive and forget.

I do try to read the bible I believe it holds the truth.

godbless,

ckmckeon

Ok, let's see, I Kings 8:50.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_...ter=8&version=9

"And forgive thy people that have sinned against thee, and all their

transgressions wherein they have transgressed against thee,

and give them compassion before them who carried them captive,

that they may have compassion on them:"

Captive? To whom is this verse addressed?

Per vpw (Bullinger), if the explanation is not in the verse

right where it is written, we look at the CONTEXT.

(See the link for the entire chapter.)

According to the chapter, this is not addressed to men (nor women),

but to GOD,

in regards to when His people mess up and reject Him,

and end up in servitude to other nations.

(Go ahead, read the entire chapter, or, if you're in a hurry,

from I Kings 8:44 onward.)

So, this verse is completely inapplicable to this discussion,

as is made clear by using the techniques advocated by vpw.

Any adherent to vpw or admirer of his should consider this

obvious.

====

Moving on....

I see we have another person who has arrived and appointed

himself the arbiter for how long a person should take to heal

from wrongs done to them.

I'm a little curious. Some people are DEAD because of wrongs

done to them by vpw and lcm. Some others were ALMOST

killed or ALMOST died as a result of wrongs done by vpw and

lcm. What is the statute of limitations of considering that a

wrong, and what is the source for this figure?

Furthermore,

"forgive and forget" the evils done by vpw.

I notice no verse was supplied for man (or woman) to do this.

Evildoers who DO NOT REPENT are to be treated as dangerous

and we're to act accordingly. We are definitely not to FORGET.

We are to be careful not to fall into their traps.

I know Paul never "forgot" the evils done by others.

II Timothy 4:14

"Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord

reward him according to his works."

That's a record IN God's Word ("God has a purpose for everything

He says"), where an evil-doer is named so Christians could be

wary of him. That record is nearly 2000 years old.

Apparently, this "forgetting" thing was NOT God's Will on this

subject.

"Forgetting" is a BAD thing, when it comes to evil-doers.

Pray for them? Yes. Try to forgive? Yes-admitting this is a

hard thing to ask.

Forget? NO.

People need to be warned. There are STILL people who

arrive here, who were kicked out and hurt, and still trying to

make sense of their suffering. They find some answers when

they read up and see the evils that were done to them and

DISGUISED as other things.

vpw did evil to others in the setting up of "his" class,

and the preparation of "his" materials.

vpw did greater evil to specific Christians in "his" ministry,

who were fooled into thinking all the excellent material

"he" (others) produced meant he had a special connection

to God-an image he originated and cultivated.

vpw used this image and position to do specific acts of

evil to specific Christians, and said it was God's Will.

Repent?

A few people claim that vpw's decades of plagiarism,

rape, and other things were all wiped away by one

claim as he was close to death,

that he wished he'd tried harder not to sin.

("I wish I'd been the man I'd known myself to be.")

Of course, a VAGUE and NONSPECIFIC claim like that

is nothing at all like an admission of guilt to FELONIES

and devastating the lives of Christians he assumed

responsibility for. At best, it's a cheap imitation of

such a claim; at worst, it's a sign he STILL cared

nothing for the ruined lives-

only that he wished HE'D been BETTER.

(That is, "Yeah, it's a shame I ruined all those

lives. If I'd been a better man, this wouldn't have

ever happened. Too bad I wasn't a better man...")

[ckmkeon]

Ok, let's see, I Kings 8:50.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_...ter=8&version=9

"And forgive thy people that have sinned against thee, and all their

transgressions wherein they have transgressed against thee,

and give them compassion before them who carried them captive,

that they may have compassion on them:"

Captive? To whom is this verse addressed?

Per vpw (Bullinger), if the explanation is not in the verse

right where it is written, we look at the CONTEXT.

(See the link for the entire chapter.)

According to the chapter, this is not addressed to men (nor women),

but to GOD,

in regards to when His people mess up and reject Him,

and end up in servitude to other nations.

So I suppose that if the verse is good enough for God it wouldn't be good enough for us??

godbless

ckmckeon

[WordWolf]

So I suppose that if the verse is good enough for God it wouldn't be good enough for us??

godbless

ckmckeon

Fine, then.

I shall apply it SWIFTLY the NEXT time the 12 nations of Israel are taken captive

and carried away to another nation because they forsook God.

[rascal]

ckmkeon, We discuss the sins and pain of 30 yra ago because Folks NEED to understand who and what vpw was...what his ministry was built upon in order to be able to understand why we were brutally used and then when every last ounce of usefullness was squeezed out.....cast away like so much garbage.

When one finally understands the true nature of vp ..... understands why he appeared credible .....understands how we were vulbnerable.....THEN we begin to heal....we can stop being so very angry with God and understand it wasn`t HE who betrayed us. It wasn`t HE who didn`t care.

This involves honestly discussing their actions....good and bad....analysing the fruit that was manifested in each in order to discern whether they were of the flesh or of the spirit as galatians instructs us.

If we do not discuss and reveal the excessive drunkeness....the rampant adultery and fornication....the hatred manifested...just to mention a few by vpw and his leaders.......how then will we determine if vp and his buddies were *of the spirit* or *of the flesh*? Whether they are worthey of our respect and forgiveness or condemnation and dire warnings to others.

ckmeon..... I hope that I am able to communicate this in a gentle non controversial manner, as this information needs to be seriously considered without putting you in a defensive mode.

As noble as your defense of twi and vpw is ..... as a person of character and principle, I do not believe that if you honestly understood who and what you are defending.....that you could not in good conscience continue to do so.

Edited February 21, 2006 by rascal

[ckmkeon]

I am sure you are right all of you the TWI is a very corrupt place now but I believe that someday in the past they taught the truth to the best of there ability. VPW and TWI is even today is not as bad as a local catholic church

godbless

ckmckeon

Edited February 21, 2006 by ckmkeon

[rascal]

ckmkeon... very well.... You BELIEVE that vpw and twi were at one time good.

How can you know that if you close your ears and eyes to the fruit manifested in both?

I know that you respect and care for what you believe twi was .... that you base your defense on who you think vpw was....but is that at all honest if you cannot bear to examine the ALL of the fruit in his life?

There are reasons that you feel that he is trustworthey...there are reasons why you feel that twi had merit....however when examined honestly......when you consider the input by people who were there from the beginning..who worked side by side with vpw.......people who saw the predations and people who endured his sick perversions.....and yes we do have these people on these boards ....only then you can honestly evaluate his moral character and qualifications or lack there of to handle the scriptures honestly friend....begin to seperate the man from the legend. :)

Edited February 21, 2006 by rascal

[diazbro]

I am sure you are right all of you the TWI is a very corrupt place now but I believe that someday in the past they taught the truth to the best of there ability. VPW and TWI is even today is not as bad as a local catholic church

godbless

ckmckeon

Great then why aren't you going to a catholic church ? I mean if you have an interest in verbally abusive leadership,

money hungry clergy, and sexual abuse then perhaps TWI and the CC are somewhat equivalent. What I find to be odd is

that TWI has only been a round a minute fraction of the time that the CC has yet TWI is doing quite well in the wicked

category and with no outside influence. In a short 40 or so years TWI has managed to make itself quite rich off the efforts of

others- Owning land managing assets. I'd say that TWI has actually modelled itself after the CC. Its followers live at

near poverty levels ,waiting to be told where to live next while the leaders bask in luxury and have their meals cooked for them,

their homes cleaned for them, in some cases their sexual needs "minstered to".

LAstly, as its been said before, VPW supporters want us to forget his problems because they happened "so long ago" yet

they will never forget any of the problems of the CC some of which occurred centruries ago. You can't have it both ways.

Having a long memory for the sins of others while having a short memory for the sins of VPW isn't fair.

Edited February 21, 2006 by diazbro

[rascal]

I have to add....that if it were YOU that were drugged and raped by vp or his friends..... or it was YOU who`s life was devistated and destroyed at 17 for non compliance on vpw`s bus ...(and yes this DID happen in the 70s UNDER vpw`s direction) ...you might then be able to safely assume that twi was a very evil place from the very beginning....far more so than the church that you villify ckmkeon :(

You have to be willing to honestly look at what vpw did ...where he got his materials that he taught ...what was added by him to achieve control....what he used the scriptures to steal to be able to understand who and what he was and whether or not he deserves forgiveness or his teachings deserve credence.

This is what is necessary in order to be honest.

Edited February 21, 2006 by rascal

[I Love Bagpipes]

Oh, the tears as I read these posts.

I was never "personally" abused in TWI. I was sort of kept in a cocoon. I had good leadership. I wasn't always a good person (i.e.: I didn't tow the line). I loved VPW like a father. I loved LCM like a brother. Neither ever hollared at me, even when I copped out on my Corps commitment (2 times) and my WOW commitment (1 time). They actually extended the odds in my favor.

What I learned in PFAL set me free from the religion I was involved in. It answered questions that I had had for years and years. The Word I learned healed my brain cells from drug abuse. Even today, JC Our Passover and JC Our Promised Seed are 2 of my favorite books. Those books painted the sacrifice of the life of my Lord & Saviour. I will probably always cherish those 2 books. (I know I'm only 4 months out, but I think I will always cherish the content of those books.)

I found GSC over 2 years ago. My thoughts then? "These people need to move on with their lives." "I just find all this stuff hard to believe. Why can't they just get over it?" "They (GSC posters) are as judgemental as anybody in TWI." "Maybe the women that were involved did so consentually; if so, these men are being blamed unjustly." "These people on GSC need to get a life." "Rosalie & Donna lesbians? Hah! That's hilarious. No way!" "I was in leadership postions. I was in the Corps. I spent two years at root locals. I NEVER saw this stuff." "People have weaknesses (like sex and $$ temptations) and others need to understand that." And on and on....I just couldn't believe most of this stuff or I felt I needed to justify any wrong actions....after all there are two sides to every story. (At the same time I would sort of wonder why TWI didn't tell their side; they just said, "Stay away from the internet.")

Then I tried to put myself in the other person's (GSC posters) shoes. (BTW, I learned that from the encounters/teachings I got from VPW.) If these stories on GSC were true, how would I have handled it had it happened to me? Could all these people be lying? Can I admit that I might have been deceived? How do I reconcile my wonderful God times with TWI? What is the fruit? The illnesses with which I dealt so many years, could part of the cause be wrong teaching/practice from TWI? And on and on....many questions.

How does one reconcile all this? I don't have any pat answers, and I am very new on this journey. But I KNOW that I can no longer wear blinders. IT IS WRONG. TO FORGET IS WRONG. PEOPLE MATTER!! People count. To just forget and discard a person's suffering as insignificant is to spit in God's face and in the face of Jesus Christ. To have a broken heart healed does not mean that one forgets the atrosities committed. To forget is to simply have them repeated again.

When I first began to read GSC posts, I put the odds in Craig's favor and in VPW's favor. It was just so hard to believe. "And WHY are people still talking about it?" I would wonder. They talk so people like me can put some pieces of a puzzle together; they talk so that people's lives are not just swept under a rug like a piece of dirt; they talk for their own healing as well. How much better it would be if TWI simply opened up and admitted their crimes. Maybe then, their might be less talk. Their could maybe be some closure for some of these folks. But TWI JUST PRETENDS THAT NOTHING EVER HAPPENED!

I am not defending the RC church but at least they offered counseling to folks from some of the crimes committed in our day and time. If I'm not mistaken aren't some of the priests serving time in prison?

Ckm, I don't know you nor your experiences in life. I implore you to not wear blinders. You can still hold fast the good, yet at the same time recognize the devastations that have happened in other's lives. I'm working on forgiveness toward leadership in TWI...for lying to me. I think too I'm working on forgiving myself, for choosing to wear the blinders for so long. You are an authority on your life, but not on the lives of others.