What I've said does not fall into the same framework of your theology. Therefore, this thought of what happened when God's spirit left Christ's body is not a part of how I view this. It is not my position that Christ did not die. It is my position that the things you're bringing up are not relevant to the discussion of whether or not Christ died. I don't know what you're thinking when you say "that many posters here believe," but you sure as shootin have not expressed or summarized my beliefs on this.
It is my position that the things you're bringing up are not relevant to the discussion of whether or not Christ died.
Understood
But for me it is relevant
Relevant especially when I consider that half of Christ's DNA was Heavenly Fathers
Relevant when Christ was the Sacrificial Lamb (in the Old Testament a goat could be used also hence scapegoat)
Relevant when I consider Christ gave up all claims to divinity when he came to this earth
Relevant for establishing whether or not Christ literally died trusting that Heavenly Father would resurrect Him Or did he retain enough of the divine spirit that life was never truly totally extinguished
The answer IMO makes a tremendous difference in understanding just how great Christ's sacrifice was for us
You called me MAUREEN---ARRGGHH I'm in trouble now !!!! :(
That is the sixty four Million dollar problem dMiller
There is no scripture that flat comes out and says Jesus gave up his divinity
The Catholic and other trinitarian doctrines teach that he never surrendered his divinity
Even many Christians who profess to be anti-trinitarin still hold that Christ retained at least some of his divine nature
What we do have a snippets here and there
James 1:13 ....for God cannot be tempted with evil....
Mark 1:13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him
being one
But the most compelling is
Christ's commandment to us in Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
And
Paul in Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
If it is necessary to have a divine nature to fulfill a sinless life then we will all fail.
In point of fact most churches teach exactly that, "there was only one perfect man etc. If in fact Jesus Christ never surrendered his divinity that makes them correct
My position is that Christ came to earth just like us and lived a perfect life by exercising his freedom of choice to always make decisions pleasing to God.
So What did he have to work with:
Well lets stick to the Ten Commandments
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them
There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain
There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy
There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable
Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable
Thou shalt not kill
There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable
Thou shalt not commit adultery
There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable
Thou shalt not steal
There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour
There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his foot, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's
There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable
So if they are all attainable--how can we, as Christians, keep maintaining the fallacy that somehow or another they aren't???
That is why Christ came to earth -- To redeem us from our sins when we fail,. but more importantly to show us that it was possible for humans to live a perfect life--he could only do this is he was a fully human as we are-- living perfectly subject to all our temptations (a point which VPW did expound on in btw) without the buffer zone of Divinity. There is a Huge difference between choosing not to sin--and being prevented from sinning by a divine nature.
I submit, that if we were embrace the fact that a sinless life was attainable instead of the opposite that it is not, we would see a dramatic improvement in our society as a whole
And If Christ was truly human then he died like we do, trusting that Heavenly Father would keep his promise, but suffering the pain and anguish of feeling his body died and the Spirit of God within depart "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me"
There is no way that as a human he could know the anguish that moment would bring before he actually experienced it
And If Christ was truly human then he died like we do, trusting that Heavenly Father would keep his promise, but suffering the pain and anguish of feeling his body died and the Spirit of God within depart "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me"
There is no way that as a human he could know the anguish that moment would bring before he actually experienced it
i think he did die like we do
and i think he beat that in his mind
when it says his sweat was as drops of blood
he learned this-how to deal with what he knew would happen
Wonderful, enlightening thread. Thanks to all of you (except allan w.) for your contributions.
And allan w., if you don't have anything to contribute, why do you post? Just to see your name in type? (Bitterness in threads bothers me. Can't we be civil to one another? Love thy neighbor as thyself? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you? Maybe you would benefit from a book by Miss Manners, probably available at your local bookstore.)
What...are you bored Sudosuda ?? I thought this thread died months ago....but seeing as you have resurrected it....nah, never mind.
The thread to me seemed to become a debate about LDS theology versus VP theology. The more Mo went on about LDS beliefs on this thread and others the more I realized that it's better to just keep letting her 'shoot herself in the foot' !
Regarding the thread itself, what VP taught was true that " if Jesus had gone around saying he was God the religious leaders would have written him off as 'mad'...but...because he called himself the Son of God, THAT got their attention.
I can't say the spirit of God arriving or departing on a man or woman is 'noticeable' as such; ask any 'born again' person.
What would have been noticeable would have been the 'whole scenario' unfolding before peoples eyes.(wasn't Passion of the Christ awesome). I can't believe that Jesus in front of everyone gathered would have 'witnessed' of a God who deserts people in their greatest hour of need.
This is from the Complete Jewish Bible translated by David H. Stern, co. 1998, Jewish New Testament Publications, Matthew 27:46:
"At about three, Yeshua uttered a loud cry, "Eli! Eli! L'mah sh'vaktani? [My God! My God! Why have you deserted me?]."
Also, noteworthy in regards to Jesus' trust in God is Luke 23: 46 where he committed his spirit into the Father's hands [which he said AFTER the Matthew 27: 46 statement]- and of further interest is that is from a Psalm also - Psalm 31: 5.
In August of 2001 my husband was in a head-on collision...a bad one.
He survived the immediate collision only to have his spleen rupture 3 days later. He blanked out twice in the 3 block trip to the ER...and was 'flatline' when he got to the ER. They revived him. X-rays revealed the exploded spleen. The surgeon told me to get my family together and say goodbye because he wasn't sure, a)if he could stop the bleeding, and, b)if my hubs would survive afterwards.
Although the surgery went as well as could be expected, the surgeon wasn't holding out any hope. The exploded spleen resulted in more than an gallon of blood being dumped into hub's gut. That's almost every drop of blood a person has at any one time.
Hubs was taken to ICU and left there naked and in a room kept at about 42°F. His bp hovered just above dead. His pallor was almost a perfect match with the hospital white sheets.
Death was expected.
I stayed by my husband's side day and night. I was allowed to do this because death was expected.
I cried out to God for help...and for a way to help my husband.
It just came to me to start reading the Psalms to him. I read night and day. When my voice gave out and I could no longer read out loud, I read to myself and pantomimed tearing out the very pages of the bible and covering hubs with the words.
I had never read the Psalms like that before...just starting at the beginning and reading straight through.
By the time my hubs recovered enough to be moved from ICU, I was a different person with a whole different understanding of Jesus' heart just before and during his crucifixion.
I knew then that what was taught about this in pfal was WRONG.
Very interesting T-Bone. So the 'forsookingness' Jesus cried out could not have been the 'spirit of God' departing from him because as you said, the commending of his spirit to God was AFTER the fact.
Very good.
Interesting that the greek used in Matthew 27:46 for 'forsake' is egkataleipo. The word kataleipo in Romans 11:4 is translated 'reserved'. Most other places translated 'leave' or 'leave behind'.
Neat to find these kinds of threads, isn't it, Suda? :) Thanks for bringing it back up and keep looking - there've been a lot of great discussions down here in the dungeon.
STFI, I believe is "Spirit & Truth Fellowship International" or something like that .... it's one of the TWI offshoots.
That is a very touching and moving part of your life that you just shared with us. I will never forget it. And I agree with you that pfal was wrong on this matter.
Look at how much different God our Father deals with us as His children rather then the way it was in the Old Testament. Jesus said I and my Father are one. Noone in the Old Testament talked like this. That had to die in order to for it to be even bigger then it was in Jesus' life as recorded in the gospels.
It was after Jesus died that God gave him a name above all names. He is at the right hand of God which is where we are too. And all that rests and it's potential and reality is within us and will manifest itself in due time.
What...are you bored Sudosuda ?? I thought this thread died months ago....but seeing as you have resurrected it....nah, never mind.
Not bored, just interested in learning. As a newcomer, there's still many gems here I have not yet had the opportunity to mine.
Have taken a look at some of your other posts. Have learned some things from you when you were not stalking Temple Lady to lamblast her LDS beliefs. BTW, I enjoy her posts and learning about LDS. Guess to me, learning will always be an exciting lifetime adventure.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
10
5
11
5
Popular Days
Feb 20
18
Feb 23
13
Apr 21
11
Feb 21
10
Top Posters In This Topic
Raf 10 posts
CM 5 posts
templelady 11 posts
allan w. 5 posts
Popular Days
Feb 20 2006
18 posts
Feb 23 2006
13 posts
Apr 21 2006
11 posts
Feb 21 2006
10 posts
Raf
Templelady,
What I've said does not fall into the same framework of your theology. Therefore, this thought of what happened when God's spirit left Christ's body is not a part of how I view this. It is not my position that Christ did not die. It is my position that the things you're bringing up are not relevant to the discussion of whether or not Christ died. I don't know what you're thinking when you say "that many posters here believe," but you sure as shootin have not expressed or summarized my beliefs on this.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
i think a LOT depends on what death and dieing really is
cuz it says Christ died...hmmmm
what really happens?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
Understood
But for me it is relevant
Relevant especially when I consider that half of Christ's DNA was Heavenly Fathers
Relevant when Christ was the Sacrificial Lamb (in the Old Testament a goat could be used also hence scapegoat)
Relevant when I consider Christ gave up all claims to divinity when he came to this earth
Relevant for establishing whether or not Christ literally died trusting that Heavenly Father would resurrect Him Or did he retain enough of the divine spirit that life was never truly totally extinguished
The answer IMO makes a tremendous difference in understanding just how great Christ's sacrifice was for us
Edited by templeladyLink to comment
Share on other sites
CM
i think we are all built the same way Jesus was
giving up the spirit is dying for everyone
no spirit no life
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Maureen -- (not meaning to be arguementative),
but please, where is the chapter and verse for this. Thanks. :)
Edited by dmillerLink to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
You called me MAUREEN---ARRGGHH I'm in trouble now !!!! :(
That is the sixty four Million dollar problem dMiller
There is no scripture that flat comes out and says Jesus gave up his divinity
The Catholic and other trinitarian doctrines teach that he never surrendered his divinity
Even many Christians who profess to be anti-trinitarin still hold that Christ retained at least some of his divine nature
What we do have a snippets here and there
James 1:13 ....for God cannot be tempted with evil....
Mark 1:13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him
being one
But the most compelling is
Christ's commandment to us in Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
And
Paul in Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
If it is necessary to have a divine nature to fulfill a sinless life then we will all fail.
In point of fact most churches teach exactly that, "there was only one perfect man etc. If in fact Jesus Christ never surrendered his divinity that makes them correct
My position is that Christ came to earth just like us and lived a perfect life by exercising his freedom of choice to always make decisions pleasing to God.
So What did he have to work with:
Well lets stick to the Ten Commandments
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them
There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain
There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy
There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable
Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable
Thou shalt not kill
There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable
Thou shalt not commit adultery
There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable
Thou shalt not steal
There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour
There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his foot, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's
There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable
So if they are all attainable--how can we, as Christians, keep maintaining the fallacy that somehow or another they aren't???
That is why Christ came to earth -- To redeem us from our sins when we fail,. but more importantly to show us that it was possible for humans to live a perfect life--he could only do this is he was a fully human as we are-- living perfectly subject to all our temptations (a point which VPW did expound on in btw) without the buffer zone of Divinity. There is a Huge difference between choosing not to sin--and being prevented from sinning by a divine nature.
I submit, that if we were embrace the fact that a sinless life was attainable instead of the opposite that it is not, we would see a dramatic improvement in our society as a whole
And If Christ was truly human then he died like we do, trusting that Heavenly Father would keep his promise, but suffering the pain and anguish of feeling his body died and the Spirit of God within depart "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me"
There is no way that as a human he could know the anguish that moment would bring before he actually experienced it
Edited by templeladyLink to comment
Share on other sites
CM
i think he did die like we do
and i think he beat that in his mind
when it says his sweat was as drops of blood
he learned this-how to deal with what he knew would happen
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Suda
What does STFI stand for?
Wonderful, enlightening thread. Thanks to all of you (except allan w.) for your contributions.
And allan w., if you don't have anything to contribute, why do you post? Just to see your name in type? (Bitterness in threads bothers me. Can't we be civil to one another? Love thy neighbor as thyself? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you? Maybe you would benefit from a book by Miss Manners, probably available at your local bookstore.)
Edited by sudossudaLink to comment
Share on other sites
allan w.
What...are you bored Sudosuda ?? I thought this thread died months ago....but seeing as you have resurrected it....nah, never mind.
The thread to me seemed to become a debate about LDS theology versus VP theology. The more Mo went on about LDS beliefs on this thread and others the more I realized that it's better to just keep letting her 'shoot herself in the foot' !
Regarding the thread itself, what VP taught was true that " if Jesus had gone around saying he was God the religious leaders would have written him off as 'mad'...but...because he called himself the Son of God, THAT got their attention.
I can't say the spirit of God arriving or departing on a man or woman is 'noticeable' as such; ask any 'born again' person.
What would have been noticeable would have been the 'whole scenario' unfolding before peoples eyes.(wasn't Passion of the Christ awesome). I can't believe that Jesus in front of everyone gathered would have 'witnessed' of a God who deserts people in their greatest hour of need.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
This is from the Complete Jewish Bible translated by David H. Stern, co. 1998, Jewish New Testament Publications, Matthew 27:46:
"At about three, Yeshua uttered a loud cry, "Eli! Eli! L'mah sh'vaktani? [My God! My God! Why have you deserted me?]."
Also, noteworthy in regards to Jesus' trust in God is Luke 23: 46 where he committed his spirit into the Father's hands [which he said AFTER the Matthew 27: 46 statement]- and of further interest is that is from a Psalm also - Psalm 31: 5.
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
CM
just how real was this death to give us life?
i mean to turn things so completely around
Jesus Christ became sin for us
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
In August of 2001 my husband was in a head-on collision...a bad one.
He survived the immediate collision only to have his spleen rupture 3 days later. He blanked out twice in the 3 block trip to the ER...and was 'flatline' when he got to the ER. They revived him. X-rays revealed the exploded spleen. The surgeon told me to get my family together and say goodbye because he wasn't sure, a)if he could stop the bleeding, and, b)if my hubs would survive afterwards.
Although the surgery went as well as could be expected, the surgeon wasn't holding out any hope. The exploded spleen resulted in more than an gallon of blood being dumped into hub's gut. That's almost every drop of blood a person has at any one time.
Hubs was taken to ICU and left there naked and in a room kept at about 42°F. His bp hovered just above dead. His pallor was almost a perfect match with the hospital white sheets.
Death was expected.
I stayed by my husband's side day and night. I was allowed to do this because death was expected.
I cried out to God for help...and for a way to help my husband.
It just came to me to start reading the Psalms to him. I read night and day. When my voice gave out and I could no longer read out loud, I read to myself and pantomimed tearing out the very pages of the bible and covering hubs with the words.
I had never read the Psalms like that before...just starting at the beginning and reading straight through.
By the time my hubs recovered enough to be moved from ICU, I was a different person with a whole different understanding of Jesus' heart just before and during his crucifixion.
I knew then that what was taught about this in pfal was WRONG.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
allan w.
Very interesting T-Bone. So the 'forsookingness' Jesus cried out could not have been the 'spirit of God' departing from him because as you said, the commending of his spirit to God was AFTER the fact.
Very good.
Interesting that the greek used in Matthew 27:46 for 'forsake' is egkataleipo. The word kataleipo in Romans 11:4 is translated 'reserved'. Most other places translated 'leave' or 'leave behind'.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Neat to find these kinds of threads, isn't it, Suda? :) Thanks for bringing it back up and keep looking - there've been a lot of great discussions down here in the dungeon.
STFI, I believe is "Spirit & Truth Fellowship International" or something like that .... it's one of the TWI offshoots.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
modcat5
STFI is the new name for CES (John Schoenheit, Mark Graeser and John Lynn).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
CoolWaters,
That is a very touching and moving part of your life that you just shared with us. I will never forget it. And I agree with you that pfal was wrong on this matter.
Look at how much different God our Father deals with us as His children rather then the way it was in the Old Testament. Jesus said I and my Father are one. Noone in the Old Testament talked like this. That had to die in order to for it to be even bigger then it was in Jesus' life as recorded in the gospels.
It was after Jesus died that God gave him a name above all names. He is at the right hand of God which is where we are too. And all that rests and it's potential and reality is within us and will manifest itself in due time.
Thanks again for sharing that with us.
Edited by CMLink to comment
Share on other sites
Suda
allan w
Regarding
Not bored, just interested in learning. As a newcomer, there's still many gems here I have not yet had the opportunity to mine.
Have taken a look at some of your other posts. Have learned some things from you when you were not stalking Temple Lady to lamblast her LDS beliefs. BTW, I enjoy her posts and learning about LDS. Guess to me, learning will always be an exciting lifetime adventure.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Keep looking, Suda! None of these threads have an "expiration date".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.