Funny you bring this up. Me and hubs were talking about this just yesterday.
Neither one of us recall any other church experience where standing and clapping when 'leadership' walked into a room was either expected or even normal.
Now on the other hand, in the corporate world it's done all the time.
Jesu Christ was the greatest leader in the world, yet he humbled himself by washing feet. How that got translated into standing and clapping is beyond me. I will stand when someone has earned my respect.
I have been in churches where people stand when the bible (The Word Of God)is read,( I am pretty sure it is an Episcopalian tradition--maybe others as well), but no others that I can recall expect you to stand when the head honcho shows up.
The cheering, clapping and whistling in Way meetings I used to encounter is from the realm of the absolute bizzarre to me now , although it is indicative of what they really worship and idolize ( men)
I have been in churches where people stand when the bible (The Word Of God)is read,( I am pretty sure it is an Episcopalian tradition--maybe others as well), but no others that I can recall expect you to stand when the head honcho shows up.
The cheering, clapping and whistling in Way meetings I used to encounter is from the realm of the absolute bizzarre to me now , although it is indicative of what they really worship and idolize ( men)
Mstar -- Yup.
I once went to a Jewish service, and when they pulled out the scrolls,
and paraded around the building with them, everyone was not only standing,
but also continually turning, so as not to take their eyes off of them,
Does anyone remember vee pee saying that if he were to walk into a room where the President of the United States was, that the President was required by protocol to stand for vee pee?
Naw, he couldn't possibly have started TWI for selfish reasons..... <_< And those who clawed their way to the top and expect people to kiss their feet don't love those seats in the high places either.....
Yeah, but remember their reasoning for the standing: it shows respect for the WORD of GOD that the teacher is going to present.
Uuuuummmmm.... yeah.
(maybe that argument would have been more convincing if the teacher's head didn't visibly swell every time we stood for him, and if he actually taught the WORD instead of a rehashed hashing of Martindale's retelling of Vic's interpretation of what some other Biblical scholar once taught in the 1950s.)
if he actually taught the WORD instead of a rehashed hashing of Martindale's retelling of Vic's interpretation of what some other Biblical scholar once taught in the 1950s.
:lol:
Also, I have to say that my last HFC was ordained and insisted that we call him by his first name - not Reverend something or other - he also insisted that we NOT stand when he was around. Really nice guy, that man, his wife, too. Very real and down to earth - I'm shocked they lasted as long as they did in TWI given how genuine they were.
The Greek Orthodox Church that we go to requires us to stand when the Priest walks in the room. It's out of respect. There's no clapping or any fanfare... but they also let people sit down who need to - like the elderly, or small children, or if you physically can't stand for a long period of time. You stand thoughout most of the service. I have also attended Mass at various Roman Catholic churches (something I'd never admit to while at the Greek Church!) - you stand, sit, kneel, and practically do The Twist before that's over with...
That being said...
Belle's comment about how the President would have to stand for Ordained Clergy - I was looking for the "rule" on line, and came across this:
I have also attended Mass at various Roman Catholic churches (something I'd never admit to while at the Greek Church!) - you stand, sit, kneel, and practically do The Twist before that's over with...
.
chas i am mad at you! you made me lose a whole mouthful of wine when you said doing the twist!! too funny thanks for the laugh.
My favorite was when we'd be eating in the dining room and Loy would walk in doing the "stay seated" hand gesture, telling us it was OK to not stand this one time. Thanks dude, now I can go back to my cormeal mush.
You always knew when he was walking in because you could hear the chairs drag against the floor. When you heard that sound you just jumped up. Like Pavlov.
According to Letitia Baldridge's etiquette book (she was Jackie Kennedy's social secretary, and succeeded Amy Vanderbilt as the etiquette guru), "rising to greet" members of the clergy is protocol, as well as is rising for much older people or a very prominent person. She does not go into the pecking order of who rises for whom, but it stands to reason that since one rises as a gesture of respect for a person's position, that no position would be elevated above one that is supposed to represent God.
I would think that when a religious leader meets a head of state, they would both be standing, assuming they were capable. That said, I think the thing about "protocol" in The Way that bugs me is that "etiquette" was imposed.
It's rude to tell someone else that he is being rude, so the appropriate response, say, for a clergyman who is polite, is to accept it graciously if someone does not stand when he enters a room. The constant reprimands and reminders about when, where, and for whom to stand, clap, serve, what have you, were more a sign of an imposed hierarchy, rather than impeccable manners, in my opinion. Polite people do not lecture others on "protocol," because that would be rude and demeaning.
Back in 91 or 92 a friend invited me to an offshoot function in Austin. I am pretty sure it was associated with Geer/Gartmore. Anyway, I had been out of TWI for 10 years by then.
They had set up a tent a municipal park and there was gonna be a "teaching" by the local MOG. P**e C**e( whom I had never met or even heard of). Anyway, after burgers and general chit chat with the folks it was getting to be time for the meeting. I was lurking about the perimeter of the tent, contemplating a seat, when a woman (whom I later found out to be Mrs MOG) told me I needed to take a seat. I told her that I was just fine standing up and that I preferred standing. She became kinda stern and insisted that I take a seat. Again, I refused and she left - reluctanty.
The place was sort of buzzing and there were a couple of unruly kids about 4 or 5 years old running around the tent making a bunch of racket. Mrs MOG was busying about telling folks to sit down cause the meeting was about to start. By that time I had found a chair and moved it close to the perimeter (in case I felt the need for an early exit). The kids were getting more loud and unruly. I wondered why a parent hadn't settled them down. My friend came by and I asked him who whe woman was and he told me. I asked about the kids. "Oh those are her kids", he replied. It began to make sense, bringing back memories of TWI and some of the reasons why I left.
The meeting was about to start. I was in my seat and Mrs Mog was standing ( not sitting like she was demanding of others) when the speaker made his entrance. The whole crowd stood up, except for me and a few others who I suspect were visitors. Mrs. Mog glared at me then came over and told me that I needed to "stand up for the Man of God". First sit, then stand .........
Well, I stood up and got eye to eye with this b**ch. Then I told her that a real man of God wouldn't demand folks to stand up like that. And futhermore, that she should be more concerned with controlling her snotty nosed kids than busying about like a little Napoleon, demanding respect for her husband by making folks to sit down and then stand up for him.
You should have seen the look on this woman's face. She was speechless. Former Way Corps no doubt, branch leaders I heard, and certainly not used to anyone talking back like that or not following her her orders.
Well Mrs Mog scurried off. I stayed and listened to about 5 minutes of the teaching ( rehashed TWI stuff) while the kids continued to run about unsupervised disrupting the teaching. 5 minutes was enough for me. Never went to another TWI or offshoot function again.
I've probably told this story before, but Goey's experience reminded me of it. If it's a boring repeat, I apologize.
M*tthew H*rmon, married to L*urie Wierw*lle, was our BC for a bit after they got married. We had regular HFC meetings at their place. Since L*nda M*cDuffie lived here for a while and she would come to the meetings occasionally.
Once, the meeting was about to start and we were all in our seats waiting to start. Linda walked in, but she was in the back of the room and we all had our backs to her. There was no way to know someone had come into the apt. and no way to know who it was, much less if it was clergy. We got ripped a new one from Matthew. Totally went off for the longest time about how disrespectful we were and how her coming in from behind us was no excuse for not standing. :blink: I didn't know "all nine all the time" included eyes in the back of our head. He went on about what the protocol is and how we are to stay standing till the "ordained of God" sat down.
A few meetings later Linda came to the meeting. As good little waybots we all stood and watched her walk to a seat near the front of the room. She was smiling and she started to sit - we started to sit - she stood up - we stood back up - she went halfway to her seat - we went halfway to our seats - she stood up again - we stood up again and we all started laughing. I really like Linda and I think that she was letting us know that it wasn't a big deal to her. She really didn't seem to care whether we had stood or not. :) Kind of a smack in the face to Matthew, but without saying a word.
I think is important to stand up as a form of respect and order. I see this action in other places like in the curhc (RC). They stand and sit down and do other things as part of the mass.
I agree with you entirely. When etiquette is forced it is a sign of egotism imho. Especially when people live in close contact with each other daily. For example, etiquette calls for a man to stand whenever a woman enters the room. It would be ridiculous if I required my husband or son to stand up whenever I entered a room in my home that they happened to be in. I agree in introductions, it's nice to stand for clergy, or if they are entering a room to preach, but just because they walk into a lunchroom, and are already known by all, nope. You stand out of respect for their position and what it represents. In a lunchroom, they represent just another hungry person.
I think is important to stand up as a form of respect and order. I see this action in other places like in the curhc (RC). They stand and sit down and do other things as part of the mass.
Completely different. That's part of a predetermined ritual.
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CoolWaters
Funny you bring this up. Me and hubs were talking about this just yesterday.
Neither one of us recall any other church experience where standing and clapping when 'leadership' walked into a room was either expected or even normal.
Now on the other hand, in the corporate world it's done all the time.
Interesting!
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
we don't clap when the priest enters i think it is a sign of respect
would i rise for loy or veepee again??
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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templelady
Standing and clapping for a bishop Nope
First, and formost you are in the HOUSE OF GOD not a football stadium
Secondly, said bishop is another Son of God--no geater than you no less than you, just a servent of Jesus Christ.
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topoftheworld
Jesu Christ was the greatest leader in the world, yet he humbled himself by washing feet. How that got translated into standing and clapping is beyond me. I will stand when someone has earned my respect.
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mstar1
I have been in churches where people stand when the bible (The Word Of God)is read,( I am pretty sure it is an Episcopalian tradition--maybe others as well), but no others that I can recall expect you to stand when the head honcho shows up.
The cheering, clapping and whistling in Way meetings I used to encounter is from the realm of the absolute bizzarre to me now , although it is indicative of what they really worship and idolize ( men)
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dmiller
Mstar -- Yup.
I once went to a Jewish service, and when they pulled out the scrolls,
and paraded around the building with them, everyone was not only standing,
but also continually turning, so as not to take their eyes off of them,
thus not *turning their back on YHWH*.
The Rabbi sure didn't get that kind of attention!
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Belle
Does anyone remember vee pee saying that if he were to walk into a room where the President of the United States was, that the President was required by protocol to stand for vee pee?
Naw, he couldn't possibly have started TWI for selfish reasons..... <_< And those who clawed their way to the top and expect people to kiss their feet don't love those seats in the high places either.....
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TheHighWay
Yeah, but remember their reasoning for the standing: it shows respect for the WORD of GOD that the teacher is going to present.
Uuuuummmmm.... yeah.
(maybe that argument would have been more convincing if the teacher's head didn't visibly swell every time we stood for him, and if he actually taught the WORD instead of a rehashed hashing of Martindale's retelling of Vic's interpretation of what some other Biblical scholar once taught in the 1950s.)
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Belle
:lol:
Also, I have to say that my last HFC was ordained and insisted that we call him by his first name - not Reverend something or other - he also insisted that we NOT stand when he was around.
Really nice guy, that man, his wife, too. Very real and down to earth - I'm shocked they lasted as long as they did in TWI given how genuine they were.
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Belle
I got a PM on this....bringing it to the top for them. :)
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ChasUFarley
The Greek Orthodox Church that we go to requires us to stand when the Priest walks in the room. It's out of respect. There's no clapping or any fanfare... but they also let people sit down who need to - like the elderly, or small children, or if you physically can't stand for a long period of time. You stand thoughout most of the service. I have also attended Mass at various Roman Catholic churches (something I'd never admit to while at the Greek Church!) - you stand, sit, kneel, and practically do The Twist before that's over with...
That being said...
Belle's comment about how the President would have to stand for Ordained Clergy - I was looking for the "rule" on line, and came across this:
http://www.bibletruths.net/Archives/BTAR151.htm
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
I have also attended Mass at various Roman Catholic churches (something I'd never admit to while at the Greek Church!) - you stand, sit, kneel, and practically do The Twist before that's over with...
.
chas i am mad at you! you made me lose a whole mouthful of wine when you said doing the twist!! too funny thanks for the laugh.
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Georgio Jessio
My favorite was when we'd be eating in the dining room and Loy would walk in doing the "stay seated" hand gesture, telling us it was OK to not stand this one time. Thanks dude, now I can go back to my cormeal mush.
You always knew when he was walking in because you could hear the chairs drag against the floor. When you heard that sound you just jumped up. Like Pavlov.
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outofdafog
"And call no man your father upon the earth, for one is your Father, which is in heaven.....
Matthew 23:9
Settles it for me......what Jesus said.
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ChasUFarley
Outofdafog -- Excellent post.
Makes me think back now about calling VPW "our Father in the Word...."
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Suda
According to Letitia Baldridge's etiquette book (she was Jackie Kennedy's social secretary, and succeeded Amy Vanderbilt as the etiquette guru), "rising to greet" members of the clergy is protocol, as well as is rising for much older people or a very prominent person. She does not go into the pecking order of who rises for whom, but it stands to reason that since one rises as a gesture of respect for a person's position, that no position would be elevated above one that is supposed to represent God.
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laleo
I would think that when a religious leader meets a head of state, they would both be standing, assuming they were capable. That said, I think the thing about "protocol" in The Way that bugs me is that "etiquette" was imposed.
It's rude to tell someone else that he is being rude, so the appropriate response, say, for a clergyman who is polite, is to accept it graciously if someone does not stand when he enters a room. The constant reprimands and reminders about when, where, and for whom to stand, clap, serve, what have you, were more a sign of an imposed hierarchy, rather than impeccable manners, in my opinion. Polite people do not lecture others on "protocol," because that would be rude and demeaning.
Don't you think so, sudossuda?
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Goey
Back in 91 or 92 a friend invited me to an offshoot function in Austin. I am pretty sure it was associated with Geer/Gartmore. Anyway, I had been out of TWI for 10 years by then.
They had set up a tent a municipal park and there was gonna be a "teaching" by the local MOG. P**e C**e( whom I had never met or even heard of). Anyway, after burgers and general chit chat with the folks it was getting to be time for the meeting. I was lurking about the perimeter of the tent, contemplating a seat, when a woman (whom I later found out to be Mrs MOG) told me I needed to take a seat. I told her that I was just fine standing up and that I preferred standing. She became kinda stern and insisted that I take a seat. Again, I refused and she left - reluctanty.
The place was sort of buzzing and there were a couple of unruly kids about 4 or 5 years old running around the tent making a bunch of racket. Mrs MOG was busying about telling folks to sit down cause the meeting was about to start. By that time I had found a chair and moved it close to the perimeter (in case I felt the need for an early exit). The kids were getting more loud and unruly. I wondered why a parent hadn't settled them down. My friend came by and I asked him who whe woman was and he told me. I asked about the kids. "Oh those are her kids", he replied. It began to make sense, bringing back memories of TWI and some of the reasons why I left.
The meeting was about to start. I was in my seat and Mrs Mog was standing ( not sitting like she was demanding of others) when the speaker made his entrance. The whole crowd stood up, except for me and a few others who I suspect were visitors. Mrs. Mog glared at me then came over and told me that I needed to "stand up for the Man of God". First sit, then stand .........
Well, I stood up and got eye to eye with this b**ch. Then I told her that a real man of God wouldn't demand folks to stand up like that. And futhermore, that she should be more concerned with controlling her snotty nosed kids than busying about like a little Napoleon, demanding respect for her husband by making folks to sit down and then stand up for him.
You should have seen the look on this woman's face. She was speechless. Former Way Corps no doubt, branch leaders I heard, and certainly not used to anyone talking back like that or not following her her orders.
Well Mrs Mog scurried off. I stayed and listened to about 5 minutes of the teaching ( rehashed TWI stuff) while the kids continued to run about unsupervised disrupting the teaching. 5 minutes was enough for me. Never went to another TWI or offshoot function again.
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Belle
I've probably told this story before, but Goey's experience reminded me of it. If it's a boring repeat, I apologize.
M*tthew H*rmon, married to L*urie Wierw*lle, was our BC for a bit after they got married. We had regular HFC meetings at their place. Since L*nda M*cDuffie lived here for a while and she would come to the meetings occasionally.
Once, the meeting was about to start and we were all in our seats waiting to start. Linda walked in, but she was in the back of the room and we all had our backs to her. There was no way to know someone had come into the apt. and no way to know who it was, much less if it was clergy. We got ripped a new one from Matthew. Totally went off for the longest time about how disrespectful we were and how her coming in from behind us was no excuse for not standing. :blink: I didn't know "all nine all the time" included eyes in the back of our head. He went on about what the protocol is and how we are to stay standing till the "ordained of God" sat down.
A few meetings later Linda came to the meeting. As good little waybots we all stood and watched her walk to a seat near the front of the room. She was smiling and she started to sit - we started to sit - she stood up - we stood back up - she went halfway to her seat - we went halfway to our seats - she stood up again - we stood up again and we all started laughing. I really like Linda and I think that she was letting us know that it wasn't a big deal to her. She really didn't seem to care whether we had stood or not. :) Kind of a smack in the face to Matthew, but without saying a word.
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themex
I think is important to stand up as a form of respect and order. I see this action in other places like in the curhc (RC). They stand and sit down and do other things as part of the mass.
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Suda
Laleo,
I agree with you entirely. When etiquette is forced it is a sign of egotism imho. Especially when people live in close contact with each other daily. For example, etiquette calls for a man to stand whenever a woman enters the room. It would be ridiculous if I required my husband or son to stand up whenever I entered a room in my home that they happened to be in. I agree in introductions, it's nice to stand for clergy, or if they are entering a room to preach, but just because they walk into a lunchroom, and are already known by all, nope. You stand out of respect for their position and what it represents. In a lunchroom, they represent just another hungry person.
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Oakspear
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