Myth of the Six Million

[oldiesman]

Thank you for the kind words DesertVis.

Although I would like this debate to continue, as I believe it can have some profit; I wonder if it's really worth it, considering the strong and hurtful emotions it brings to some folks.

If others wish to retire from this thread, so shall I.

[Raf]

Linda Z and dmiller, what is the problem with posting varying information and let the reader decide whether to believe it or not? I have no problem with folks posting pro-Zionist or anti-Nazi information, and I welcome it. Why not welcome revisionist information, as well? I am very thankful ... a debate such as this is banned in some other countries...

For the same reason we do not have alchemy textbooks in our schools: it's a waste of time. Why not welcome the revisionist information? Because it's not information! It's twisting of facts and denial of facts on matters already researched and concluded. Would you pay attention to a screed written by the Flat Earth Society that provides all sorts of evidence that Washington, D.C. is not really in North America? Of course not. Why? Because you KNOW that Washington, D.C. is in North America, just like anyone who's studied the subject honestly knows that about six million Jews were killed, many in gas chambers, as a result of Hitler's Final Solution, which was not a mass deportation order but a deliberate attempt to exterminate Jews. If you don't believe me, believe one of the authors you cited: Christopher Browning, who documents this quite clearly in his books (when they're not quoted out of context).

[GrouchoMarxJr]

It would seem that oldies is more intent upon using his intellectual abilities in defending his position rather than being honest and re-evaluating it.

...denying the holocaust requires blind allegience to an erroneous notion...Too bad oldies...too bad.

[Raf]

Denying the Holocaust, or questioning its central points (there was a final solution; Hitler ordered it; six million Jews died; many in gas chambers) does not require intellectual ability. It requires the suspension of it.

[oldiesman]

Oh well, I tried. I guess folks still want to debate.

I'm game. :)

[Raf]

It's not a matter of debate, Oldies. I was responding to a point you made BEFORE you suggested ceasing the discussion.

[oldiesman]

I think this is gonna be a long thread, so get ready for more posts, folks.

Golly, even Ward Cleaver knows what's gonna happen now...

Edited May 16, 2006 by oldiesman

[Raf]

Let me guess: you're going to post some previously discredited nonsense and call it food for thought? Are you going to tell us that it's highlights of a book consisting of nothing but highlights?

[oldiesman]

Here is the third installment of the revisionist "Holocaust 101" series.

I mistakenly posted the fourth installment previously, thinking it was the third.

Here's the third:

Zgram - Where Truth is Destiny: Now more than ever!

June 5, 2004

Good Morning from the Zundelsite:

More yet from the "Holocaust 101" series.

[sTART]3. The Revisionist claim: The numbers of "Holocaust" victims are

irresponsibly exaggerated.

The numbers game of alleged Jewish losses is indeed a vexing one.

Many, many people of all nationalities disappeared or perished in the

war and cannot be accounted for. Some lie in the ashes of Allied

bombings of German cities and buried beneath collapsed buildings;

others were incinerated in bomb-caused Allied firestorms; still

others perished in the Russian Gulags long after the shooting had

stopped.

It is unfair and incorrect to claim - as is routinely claimed - that

if a person cannot be accounted for, he or she perished due to

genocide - or, worse yet, due to gassings.

In fact, the "Holocaust" is the best example of ". . . death proved

by the stories of million of survivors."

Does that not make you think?

The media is full of "survivor" organizations existing in every major

city of the Western World - from Toronto to Johannesburg; from Rio de

Janeiro to Los Angeles. (Š)

If so many millions of Jewish people died at the hands of the

Germans, why are there so many survivors? (Ingrid's comment: Norman

Finkelstein's mother, for one, wanted to knowŠ)

Aficionados of the "Holocaust" have often called Jacob Robinson a

"historian" and "internationalist jurist" and referred to him as a

prime source of authoritative information on what happened to the

Jews.

Jacob Robinson was, in fact, a cunning East European Jewish shyster

with a diabolical plan and agenda. He was the inventor/creator of the

"revolutionary concept" of the idea of the Nuremberg Trial for

Germany's leaders and the German Reparations scheme.

According to Nahum Goldman, former President of the World Jewish Congress,

". . . Apart from my encounter with the survivors of the

concentration camps after the liberation, I only returned officially

to Germany in order to meet Chancellor Adenauer and open negotiations

about reparations. These reparations constitute an extraordinary

innovation in terms of international law.

Until then, when a country lost a war, it paid damages to the victor,

but it was a matter between states, between governments. Now for the

first time a nation was to give reparations either to ordinary

individuals or to Israel, which did not legally exist at the time of

Hitler's crimes. All the same, I must admit that the idea did not

come from me.

During the war the WJC (World Jewish Congress) had created an

Institute of Jewish Affairs in New York (its headquarters are now in

London). The directors were two great Lithuanian Jewish jurists,

Jacob and Nehemiah Robinson. Thanks to them, the Institute worked out

two completely revolutionary ideas: the Nuremberg tribunal and German

reparations. (Goldman, Nahum, The Jewish Paradox, Grosset & Dunlap,

1978, p 122)

Put two and two together.

Reparation claims are based on number of victims - somewhat like an

insurance claim after a plane crash and a subsequent fire. It pays to

keep these numbers high. No mystery to that.

Now visualize an insurance company that has to pay for a fire in

which, supposedly, some family members perished. It does not take a

rocket scientist to figure out that if the insurance company is

prevented from checking vital documents, such as: ". . . who was

actually booked on that plane. . . ? - a non-existent "victim" uncle

or aunt could conceivably materialize, defrauding the insurance

company. These things are known to have been done to some insurance

companies.

To trot out the old canard of the "Protocol of Wannsee" (of Jan. 20,

1942) allegedly outlining the Nazi plans to "annihilate the European

Jews" shows real chutzpah. Even the Jewish Holocaust expert Yehuda

Bauer of Hebrew University in Jerusalem has said that Wannsee was a

meeting, but "hardly a conference," and that ". . . little of what

was said there was executed in detail."

Here is the quote in full, under the title: Wannsee's importance

rejected, in the Canadian Jewish News, Jan. 30, 1992:

"The public still repeats, time after time, the silly story that at

Wannsee the extermination of the Jews was arrived at. Wannsee was but

a stage in the unfolding of the process of mass murder." (Canadian

Jewish News, Jan. 30, 1992)

According to the New York Times, November 12, 1989, (Bauer) added

when chided saying that he would not want to ". . . add grist for the

mills of the deniers of the Holocaust: "They can add, you know. . ."

(Auschwutz Revisionism: An Israeli Scholar's Case, NYT, Nov 12, 1989)

They did, and they do.

By doing so, they "shrunk the Holocaust." Let us take Auschwitz, for

example. According to a December 10, 1995 summary prepared by Dr.

Faurisson, this is what the claims look like:

9,000,000 persons___according to the documentary film Nuit et

Brouillard(Tr.'s Note: "Night and Fog", title used in the

English-speakingworld) (1955), whose historical advisers were the

historian Henri Micheland the woman historian Olga Wormser-Migot

8,000,000 persons___according to the French War Crime Research Office

andthe French War Crime Information Service) (1945)

7,000,000 persons___according to Raphaël Feigelson (1945)

6,000,000 Jews___according to Tibère Kremer, writer of a foreword for

Miklos Nyiszli (1951)

5,000,000 to 5,500,000 persons___according to Bernard Czardybon

(1945),according to confessions attributed to some SS members and

according tothe newspaper Le Monde (1978), which was adding: "of whom

90% of Jews"

4,500,000 persons ___according to Henryk Mandelbaum (1945)

4,000,000 persons___according to a Soviet document of which the

Nurembergtribunal took "judicial notice". This figure was inscribed

nineteentimes, with a commentary in as many different languages, on

the Auschwitz-Birkenaumonument. It was repeated by a sizable number

of persons, including thePolish historian Franciszek Piper. It was to

be declared false in 1990 andreplaced, on the monument, in 1995, by

the figure of 1,500,000 with theconcurrence of the same F. Piper for

whom this figure is a maximum whilethe minimum figure is of

1,100,000. According to Miriam Novitch (1967),of the 4,000,000 dead,

2,700,000 were Jewish. According to Rabbi Moshe Weiss(1991), more

than 4,000,000 persons died at Auchwitz, of whom 3,000,000Jews

3,500,000 persons___according to the Dictionnaire de la langue

française (Tr.'s Note: Dictionary of the French language) published

by Hachette (1991).According to Claude Lanzmann (1980), there were

3,500,000 gassed of whom95% of Jews as well as many other deaths

3,000,000 persons___until December 1st, 1943, according to a

confessionextorted from Rudolf Höss, ex-Commander of Auschwitz

3,000,000 Jews gassed___according to David Susskind (1986) and

accordingto Heritage, the most inmportant Californian Jewish weekly

(1993)

2,500,000 persons, according to Rudolf Vrba for the Eichmann trial (1961)

2,000,000 (?) to 4,000,000 (?)___according to the historian Yehuda Bauer(1982)

2,000,000 to 3,000,000 Jews killed as well as thousands of

non-Jews___ accordingto a confession attributed to an SS in charge,

Pery Broad

2,000,000 to 2,500,000 persons killed___according to a confession

attributedto an SS physician, Dr. Friedrich Entress (1945)

2,000,000 persons___according to the historian Léon Poliakov

(1951);according to the historian Georges Wellers (1973) and

according to the womanhistorian Lucy Davidowicz (1975)

1,600,000 persons___according to the historian Yehuda Bauer (1989),

of whom1,352,980 Jews (the latter figure is from Georges Wellers,

1983)

1,500,000 persons:___ this figure, chosen by Lech Walesa, replaced,

in 1995,on the Birkenau monument, that of 4,000,000 which had been

withdrawn in1990

1,471,595 persons___of whom 1,352,980 Jews, according to the

historian GeorgesWellers (1983)

1,250,000 persons or so___of whom 1,000,000 Jews killed and more than

250,000non-Jews dead, according to the historian Raul Hilberg

1,100,000 to 1,500,000 persons___according to the historians Yisrael

Gutman,Michael Berenbaum and Franciszek Piper (1994)

1,000,000 persons___according to Jean-Claude Pressac (1989) and

accordingto the Dictionnaire des noms propres (Tr.'s Note:Dictionary

of proper nouns)published by Hachette (1992)

800,000 to 900,000 persons___according to the historian Gerald Reitlinger(1953)

775,000 to 800,000 persons___according to Jean-Claude Pressac (1993),

ofwhom 630,000 Jews gassed

630,000 to 710,000 persons___according to Jean- _____ [reference

accidentally deleted]

The ever-shrinking numbers of Auschwitz "victims" should give

skeptical people - people who apply common sense to this topic -

pause to ponder. Yehuda Bauer, Jewish Holocaust scholar, admitted the

falsity of the 4 million figure in a November 1989 article, where he

comments on the cruel manipulation of the numbers of victims in

Auschwitz by Zionists and Communist propagandists and liars alike.

(Auschwitz Revisionism: An Israeli Scholar's Case. NYT, November 12,

1989.)

Let's mention the Red Cross here as well. This so-called

"humanitarian" organization has much to do with the fact that the

numbers are so unreliable.

The Red Cross played an ignoble role during and especially after the

war when dealing with alleged "Nazi atrocity" stories and statistics.

(See sworn testimony of Charles Biederman during the Zündel Trial.

Did Six Million Really Die? Report of the Ev idence in the Canadian

"False News" Trial of Ernst Zündel - 1988, Edited by Barbara

Kulaszka, pp 80-84. It is worth reading in its entirety.)

Below I am merely offering two excerpts of this testimony, as

summarized in the Zündel Transcripts by Barbara Kulaszka in her book:

"Did Six Million Really Die?":

"Access to the documents was limited by the Bonn Agreements of 1955

to former persecutees and their legal successors on the grounds that

the documents were all person-related and therefore not open to the

public. (11-2497, 2498). The wording used in the Bonn Agreement was

that the archives were "only to be evaluated in the interests of the

former persecutees themselves or their successors." (12-2676). The

only exception to this rule, as provided for under the agreements,

was that representatives of any of the ten Allied governments of the

supervisory body had the right to inspect the documents. (11-2497)

Any application by one of the ten governments for access was reviewed

by the Director of the ITS (Internal Tracing System); if the Director

felt it was not justified, he could submit the application to the

International Commission for the final decision. He could not

remember any request by Israel being denied. (12-2711)"

In other words, Israel can look at the data, but German researchers

and historians cannot. Revisionists cannot. Ernst Zündel cannot. Mr.

Wiesenthal, presumably, can.

The Kulaszka trial transcript summary goes on to say:

Biedermann confirmed that as of December 31, 1983, the total number

of deaths registered with the Special Registry Office and various

other registry offices was 373,468. (11-2515) This figure represented

death certificates issued pursuant to received applications and was

based, with respect to the Special Registry Office, on camp records

kept by the Nazis during the war. (11-2516, 2517)

Biedermann agreed that at an international conference held by the

International Committee of the Camps in Vienna in 1977, the then

director of the ITS, Albert de Cocatrix, gave a speech which

indicated that as of December 31, 1976 a total of 357,190 names of

persons who died in concentration camps had been registered at the

Special Registry Office. Biedermann confirmed that these numbers

actually came from the ITS. (12-2640 to 2646) He pointed out,

however, that these figures resulted from applications. If an entire

family had died, there was no one to make an application for a death

certificate. Secondly, the ITS had complete documentation for only

two of the twenty-two concentration camps. For the remainder, it had

either partial or no documentation. Therefore, if an application was

made for a person who had allegedly died in one of these camps, the

ITS would not have the records to justify a request to the Special

Registry Office for a death certificate. (12-2647)

It is really ridiculously simple. The numbers game on which the

reparations claims are based could be laid to rest tomorrow.

The Red Cross via its International Tracing Service in Arolson,

headed by Red Cross delegate, Charles Biedermann, has important

information on hand of every concentration camp inmate who ever went

through a German prisoner-of-war or civilian concentration camp.

These 14 million pieces of information could, with today's computer

technology, OCR software etc. be sifted, categorized, analyzed and

double-checked. In a very short time, this information could be made

available to the public, which would put an effective end to all the

abuse, misinterpretation, fudging and falsifying of alleged and real

numbers of "Nazi victims."

The German Government can and should have checked the inmates'

records 50 years ago. Why is this not being done? A good guess is

that then it would have been revealed for all the world to see that

false reparations claims were made and billions were paid and have

been fraudulently collected for a long time.

There are letters by the Arolson Tracing Service which at least give

a partial glimpse at what is available in those archives there. The

Red Cross,by accepting the currently worded 10-nation agreement or

mandate with which it administers this macabre but important legacy

of WW II, has become a willing accomplice in obfuscating research and

is, in fact, hiding historical facts.

I am on record saying that the Red Cross is deliberately

stone-walling an honest investigation into one of the saddest

chapters in human history. If the Red Cross does not like this

justified criticism, let them get out of the business of hiding the

truth from the public looking for answers.

[END]

[GrouchoMarxJr]

[oldiesman]

It's not a matter of debate, Oldies.

At this point, you may be correct Raf.

You've made your position clear that the revisionist information is nonsense. Maybe it is. But I still think there's profit in posting varying information about this topic. No harm in reading other views, is there?

Thank God we live in a free country, having the ability to read what is banned in some other countries. :o

[Raf]

Post away.

Post some alchemy textbooks while you're at it.

[DesertVis]

Thank God we live in a free country, having the ability to read what is banned in some other countries. :o

Kind of like nazi germany, Oldies?

Or, I am reminded of many way leaders who admonish, reprove, and harass any wayfer who reads anything other than approved wayfer materials or who dare listen to any praise and worship music.

Hmmmmm...

[Raf]

OM

The freedom to read and post whatever you want is also the freedom I have to call it the external manifestation in the senses realm of the internal stupidity of the notion that motivated the post.

Edited May 16, 2006 by Raf

[coolchef1248 @adelphia.net]

my 2 cents

i have an uncle who went to germany to fight the war

he married there

i visited them a few years ago

his wife has her serial number tattooed on her wrist

this is something i saw with my eyeballs

not a story

they took me to visit dacho{sp?}

it was horrible

anyone who thinks this didn't happen imo is an foot ho$$l

i saw proof

what a sick pup ole vic was to even suggest this

[shazdancer]

Spelled Dachau, chef. And thank you for your account.

Oldies, you can post that the moon is made of green cheese, too.

Tell me why you "know" that it isn't....

-- Shaz

[dmiller]

I was in NYC once, when I was a young-un.

There were no twin towers (WTC) then --

I never saw them, so how do I know that they really did exist?

Likewise, I've heard some *rumors* that a coupla jets crashed into those towers,

back on September 11th, 2001.

That is -- if they existed in the first place -- cause I never saw them.

And all the film footage about what happened on 9/11 just has to be bogus,

since I didn't see the occurance firsthand, and I'm not sure the buildings were even there.

Who cares if many were tragically affected that day, have first hand accounts,

*survivor* stories abound, etc., etc., etc.

Now excuse me while I google for pics of the NYC skyline --

pics of the city before the WTC towers were built (if they were built).

And then when I find them -- I'll post the *other info proving*

they never existed, and 9/11 never happened.

And if I did -- how much of THAT would you believe -- Oldies???

Edited May 17, 2006 by dmiller

[SafariVista]

Maybe I missed something in reading here, but WHY would VP even be thinking such nonsense?

I just don't get it, did he read something and jump to conclusions?

Did he have ulterior motives? Did this stance help promote something of his own?

I honestly never new, previous to reading here, that he even talked about this…but then, after our first ‘encounter’…I didn’t like him much anyway ;)

Here's a Map, counting the deaths:

[What The Hey]

It is amazing to see how some people can get all hot and bothered and worked up and ready to pop a vein over the Holocaust. I wonder if those same people could get that passionate over the German Holocaust? Not very likely, I think.

Not much is said that after WWII there were thousands of Jews who sought revenge for the Holocaust. There were thousands of Jews who set up 1,255 concentration camps for German civilians. German men, women, children and babies were also whipped, beat, tortured and murdered by the Jews! I'm sure that probably sounds to fanciful to be true to many of you. It's documented in: Eye for an Eye: The story of Jews Who Sought Revenge for the Holocaust by: John Sack. FYI - this book is NOT a TWI publication! (GEEESH, why do some people push this issue as something that is exclusive to TWI?)

BUT THE BOOK IS A FRAUD! (I am sure that may be the contention of some people.) If the book is a fraud, why would three major publishers, a major newpaper and a major magazine offer $40,000 for such a book? Their naivety? Hardly. Apparently they were all scared off. (The only question I have about that would be is - by who?) This book became a best seller in Europe but only became: "The Book They Dare Not Review" in America. Both 60 Minutes and the New York Times have corroborated what the author wrote as the review states.

It would appear that the Holocaust completely backfired on the Germans in more ways than one if you ask me. The only problem I see with the Holocaust agenda is that the Gemans today just don't receive the same sympathy for it that the Jews do - even though the Jews are quite capable of returning an: Eye for an Eye: The Story of Jews Who Sought Revenge for the Holocaust

Edited May 17, 2006 by What The Hey

[WordWolf]

It is amazing to see how some people can get all hot and bothered and worked up and ready to pop a vein over the Holocaust.

It is amazing to see how some people can't summon up a drop of compassion

for 6 million people who were systematically killed because of their religion or ethnicity.

I wonder if those same people could get that passionate over the "German Holocaust?" Not very likely, I think.

Not much is said that after WWII there were thousands of Jews who sought revenge for the Holocaust. There were thousands of Jews who set up 1,255 concentration camps for German civilians. German men, women, children and babies were also whipped, beat, tortured and murdered by the Jews! I'm sure that probably sounds to fanciful to be true to many of you. It's documented in: Eye for an Eye: The story of Jews Who Sought Revenge for the Holocaust by: John Sack. FYI - this book is [o]NOT[/i] a TWI publication! (GEEESH, why do some people push this issue as something that is exclusive to TWI?)

Why do some people pretend their belief in such things is not directly

related to "I learned this from vpw"?

BTW,

John Sack believes 6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust.

I suppose you'll admit they were, now?

BUT THE BOOK IS A FRAUD! (I am sure that may be the contention of some people.) If the book is a fraud, why would three major publishers, a major newpaper and a major magazine offer $40,000 for such a book? Their naivety? Hardly. Apparently they were all scared off. (The only question I have about that would be is - by who?) This book became a best seller in Europe but only became: "The Book They Dare Not Review" in America. Both 60 Minutes and the New York Times have corroborated what the author wrote as the review states.

IF that is true (and coming from WTH, that's always highly suspect),

I'd expect publishers always have asked what they ask today,

"Will this make money?"

A publisher will authorize a criticism of ITSELF if it will make money.

I've also noticed that historians aren't lining up anywhere to support

John Sack's conclusions.

It would appear that the Holocaust completely backfired on the Germans in more ways than one if you ask me. The only problem I see with the Holocaust agenda is that the Gemans today just don't receive the same sympathy for it that the Jews do - even though the Jews are quite capable of returning an: Eye for an Eye: The Story of Jews Who Sought Revenge for the Holocaust

A) So we get this clear-

this is a thread about 6 million Jews the Nazis killed.

You accept this as truth now, correct?

B) This author is hardly wildly embraced by any reputable sources.

Instead, we get replies like this:

http://www1.us.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/s...n-sack.19931223

Edited May 17, 2006 by WordWolf

[shazdancer]

WTH, a lot of bad things happened in the confusion in the aftermath of WWII, and I think that in the interest of turning the war into sound bites, and in the interest of moving on, a lot of the wrongs have been under-discussed.

I once spoke with a lady from Germany whose family colonized occupied Poland, sort of like what the Jews did on the West Bank. After the Allies took back Poland from the nazis, her family moved back to Germany, only to be treated as non-citizens in their own country, living in a squallid relocation camp with little food. She was about 3 years old. She wonders to this day why no one wants to hear her story of injustice.

War is messy. The aftermath of war is messy. And unfortunately, it often leaves room for those with less thsn stellar motives to move in and do their dirty work. The Jews were victims of the Holocaust. That doesn't make them all good people, not before, during, or after the war. But of course, after the war, most who survived just wanted to go back to their peaceful lives.

I believe the Sacks account of Jewish post-war concentration camps is true. But (as he firmly states), it does not make the Holocaust untrue.

From the interview with Sacks cited by WordWolf:

The Institute says that the Holocaust didn't happen. Well, I write on the second page of An Eye for an Eye, "The people who say it are fools, maybe worse," so I welcome the fact that the Institute's selling these words. On the same page I write, "Yes, the Holocaust happened," and I then write 33 pages specifically about the Holocaust.

A couple more quotes

Well, the Jews didn't, repeat, didn't do what the Germans did. They didn't kill even two percent as many people. They certainly didn't put Germans on trains and send them to cyanide chambers and crematoriums. I say that in An Eye for an Eye, almost word-for-word. Anyone who says the Jews did the same things the Germans did is saying his or her own words, not mine.

And about his main character...

The heroine of the book is Lola Potok, a real person who now lives in Australia. For months she sought to do what the Germans did to the Jews, to her own family, in fact. She beat the Germans and let her guards torture them, let the Germans die. Then she remembered what her religion taught her. She changed.

And about Jewish backing for his book...

There's no division in any Jewish community that I am a part of. My agent, my lawyer, my publisher, my editor, my publicity person at Basic Books, and even my beloved Sysop at CompuServe are all Jews, and they're behind An Eye for an Eye. They realize that (as the Jewish magazine PS put it) we have nothing to fear and much to gain from An Eye for an Eye.

Thanks for the information, WTH. And thanks for the link, WW.

--Shaz

[Tom Strange]

Here is the third installment of the revisionist "Holocaust 101" series.

I mistakenly posted the fourth installment previously, thinking it was the third.

Here's the third:

OM... New rule for you: You cannot post a quote without first reading it in it's entirity. ...maybe that'll slow you down some... probably not... but maybe...

[oldiesman]

I read it, but was probably distracted by something Raf wrote.

And now for Greasepot perusal, Part V of the "Holocaust 101" series:

Zgram - Where Truth is Destiny: Now more than ever!

June 7, 2004

Good Morning from the Zundelsite:

Continuing with the "Holocaust 101" series:

[sTART]The Revisionist Claim: Not a single document has been found with

Hitler's signature ordering the extermination of the Jews."

It is a heartening development to have the Holocaust Promotion Lobby

in general finally admit that there was, in fact, no Führer order

ever to exterminate the Jews. Revisionists credit themselves for

having secured this admission.

At the 1988 Zündel Trial, defense attorney Christie placed a

transparency on an overhead projector, which stated:

Alleged Extermination of the Jews

No Order

No Plan

No Budget

No Weapon

(No expert report stating:

"This was a homicidal gas chamber")

No Body

(No autopsy stating: "This is or was the body of a person killed by

poison gas.")

for this alleged mass extermination campaign!

That there existed such an order had been a much-repeated claim for

decades, and many people still believe there was. Dr. Raul Hilberg -

known as the "Pope of the Holocaust" for having authored "The

Destruction of the European Jews," (often referred to as "The

Holocaust Bible") a man who is widely regarded as the "#1 Expert" on

Holocaust matters, has managed to bring his perception of the

Holocaust a little more in accord with the facts, thanks to

Revisionist influence, to wit:

* In his 1961 edition of his book, "The Destruction of the

European Jews," Dr. Hilberg wrote that there were two Hitler orders.

(Hilberg, Raul, The Destruction of the European Jews, Quadrangel,

Chicago, page 177)

*

* At the 1985 trial of Ernst Zündel, Hilberg continued to

insist that the orders existed, stating that he would not be

correcting what he wrote in 1961 in his new, forthcoming edition.

(Did Six Million Really Die? Report of the Evidence in the Canadian

"False News" Trial of Ernst Zündel - 1988, Edited by Barbara

Kulaszka, pp 851-852)

*

* Shortly after his testimony, Hilberg then proceeded to delete

all references to a Hitler Order in the body of his new edition,

published in 1985. (Hilberg, Raul, "The Destruction of the European

Jews," Holmes & Meyer, New York, 1985, p 402 (in Did Six Million

Really Die? Report of the Ev idence in the Canadian "False News"

Trial of Ernst Zündel - 1988, Edited by Barbara Kulaszka, pp 112-113)

*

* In this new edition, the reference to a "Hitler Order" is

buried in a footnote that now reads as follows:

"Thus came about not so much a plan being carried out, but an

incredible meeting of minds, a consensus, mind-reading by a far-flung

bureaucracy." (Did Six Million Really Die? Report of the Evidence in

the Canadian "False News" Trial of Ernst Zündel - 1988, Edited by

Barbara Kulaszka, pp 112-113)

"Did this include nods and winks?" asked Zündel defense attorney,

Douglas Christie, in the 1988 Zundel Trial.

Let's let the reader guess.

Did the Nazis whisper in each others ears how to exterminate millions

and millions of Jews? Believable? Maybe so is the Easter bunny!

Even Holocaust historian Christopher Browning noted this as a major

interpretational change in Hilberg's work, speaking of his colleague

as "the Revised Hilberg." (The Revised Hilberg, Simon Wiesenthal

Annual, Volume 3, 1986)

So now it is agreed by friend and foe alike except by those who still

need to catch up - there was NO Führer order!

What is still left are two incendiary words: "Final Solution" - or,

the German equivalent, "Endlösung."

Let's look at those.

It is true that the words "Endlösung" or "final solution" were used

in reference to the Jews. So what? Does that prove anything? Does

that mean "extermination"? Does a "final solution" to the

unemployment problem mean the government is going to exterminate all

the unemployed?

During the war, the phrase was used in Canada when dealing with the

Japanese - and nobody claims today that Canada was planning genocidal

things with reference to Orientals! In a recent television

documentary about Canada's wartime policy toward Canadians of

Japanese origin, documents were unearthed that talked about "The

Final Solution" to the "Japanese problem" - which was relocation,

denaturalization and deportation of the Japanese from Canada to

Japan. This was exactly what Germany's policies were towards the Jews

- for almost the same reasons. The country was at war, and Jews were

seen as subversive to the government and to the war effort - just as

Japanese were seen as subversive to Canadian wartime policies.

Germany's policies were far less race-based and much more ideological

in nature than Canada's. As a matter of fact and record, tens of

thousands of Jews lived and worked in Germany during the war outside

concentration camps, even in Hitler's capital, Berlin - one of them

being the famous Rabbi and Zionist leader Leo Boeck, who was a

practicing rabbi in 1943!

If you doubt that, check on the 1943 Berlin telephone book!

[END]

[What The Hey]

BTW,

John Sack believes 6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust. I suppose you'll admit they were, now?

Who said I was admiting that John Sack's book was even credible? For the record, I don't own his book - Eye for an Eye. Afterall, why should one risk losing $12.95 over a book 5 major publisher's were willing to shell out $40 grand for - but then they all got scared off? It sounds more like a tabloid marketing technique. Even I recognize a "sales blurb" when I hear it.

As far as disproving the 6 million, there are many credible sources one can refer to on that. Anybody who disagrees is just plain and simple ignorant of the facts. If this thread has proven anything WW, it is that there are many fanciful stories on both sides of the issue as there are credible ones. If anything, this thread has certainly proven that: "The myth of the 6 million" is NOT an invention of TWI which therefore makes them an exclusive group on the Holocaust, which you and apparently everone wants to insist upon. Like I stated, there are many fanciful stories on both sides of the issue. Of course, one can always go with whatever suits their fancy. If your someone who is looking for a more credible source on the myth of the 6 million (not just the one provided by TWI) maybe this one is more to your fancy. Did Six Million Really Die?: Report of the Evidence in the Canadian 'False News' Trial of Ernst Zündel

Well - just whose story are you gonna believe now? It all depends on if one is willing to shell out $12.95 or $50.00 for someone's book on the subject I guess. Naturally the more $ one is on the hook for, the more willing they are to argue their side of the issue. Everyone wants to argue their point. It all depends on how much they are on the hook for, and how much they are willing to invest in it.

Someone just uploaded a map with a bunch of numbers on it. I am sure that was a major investment for them. I suppose they want someone to now argue with them on this "hard evidence" on the Holocaust? How convenient it says: "Holocaust Deaths" at the bottom of the map. One could just as easily be looking at a map of square mileage (or kilometers) as Holocaust Deaths. Even if the map were refering to "Holocaust Deaths", is one talking about the Jews murdered by the Germans, or the Germans who were murdered by the Jews? I guess it all depends on whose book you've read lately. Either way, I wouldn't go betting money on it.

[shazdancer]

WTH,

You ask (rhetorically perhaps, but I'll bite)

Who said I was admiting that John Sack's book was even credible?

You implied that you did, when you said...

Not much is said that after WWII there were thousands of Jews who sought revenge for the Holocaust. There were thousands of Jews who set up 1,255 concentration camps for German civilians. German men, women, children and babies were also whipped, beat, tortured and murdered by the Jews! I'm sure that probably sounds to {sic} fanciful to be true to many of you. It's documented in: Eye for an Eye: The story of Jews Who Sought Revenge for the Holocaust by: John Sack. FYI - this book is NOT a TWI publication! (GEEESH, why do some people push this issue as something that is exclusive to TWI?)....If the book is a fraud, why would three major publishers, a major newpaper and a major magazine offer $40,000 for such a book?

Sounds like you endorsed this book by saying it documents actual facts, facts which you quote in your argument -- this book you never read. Pretty weak to argue your point with a book whose authenticity you doubt.

You go on (my responses in boldface):

As far as disproving the 6 million, there are many credible sources one can refer to on that. Really? Credible sources? Haven't heard of any. But I have read the stories of eyewitnesses, and met one, a respected university professor. I will take as "credible sources" the major media, members of the armed forces who liberated the camps, survivors, and others who took the time to document the facts, in the interest of the truth, not an agenda.

If anything, this thread has certainly proven that: "The myth of the 6 million" is NOT an invention of TWI which therefore makes them an exclusive group on the Holocaust, which you and apparently everone wants to insist upon. No one here that I've read said that TWI invented the "myth of the 6 million." We have said that Wierwille promoted that point of view by his remarks and by selling books about it in his bookstore, which was devoted exclusively to Christian subject matter, so apparently he thought that the "myth" was something he felt all good Christians should know.

-- Shaz