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Thread Title: Is it okay to recommend wierwille's books to others? Alternate Title: Is it okay to burn these books to protect others from the cult snare?

In my opinion, twi has a corporate secret: No one on the field will truly "remain standing with twi" throughout their lifetime in the eyes of twi's contempt. Why do I say this? Because, as twi defines "standing" or "committed".....it embodies the concept of faithfully witnessing, abundant sharing, attending fellowships and classes, constantly keeping step with the present truth (cough, cough) and embracing an adulation of youthful bliss. So, unless one dies suddenly and thus, prematurely it's quite certain that twi's bod will scoff at their "commitment" in their elderly years. As the years quickly pass by, it seems more and more apparent that twi is grasping at the wind in its attempts to hold onto its followers. Their desire to exploit their followers as merchandise is CONSTANT CONVERSATION on the internet i.e. Greasespot Cafe. And, without a charismatic leader, twi has NO appeal. It's policies and mundane teachings are transparent to the aging followers. The love of God does NOT abide at the trustee/director level in twi. A competitive and manipulative environment is fostered by twi's leadership and is core to way corps teachings. The marching orders of the day are to keep step with the directors' policies.....of which, they themselves do NOT live. In reading through the Friend Tracker Forum.......ANOTHER region/limb coordinator (and wife) walks away from this gluttenous cult and strikes out on his own in a brave move. Yep, even in this "kinder and gentler ministry" H@yward and N@ncy Ch@ppell (sp?) are disassociating themselves from their "embrace." Where have I seen this pattern before???........from Region coordinator........to Limb coordinator........to Branch coordinator....... to secular career..........to NO twi involvement! Yeah, Twi's corporate secret: No one on the field will truly "remain standing with twi" a lifetime. But, in actuality I tend to think that MANY of the corps leadership are busy planning their LIFETIME without twi. Thank you Paw.......Greasespot continues to awaken those in cultic slumber.

From time to time, some of us discuss things. Some of those times, someone correctly invokes points of logic. Other times, someone INcorrectly invokes points of logic. One of the worst examples of a repeated error involves "Burden of Proof" and "Shifting the Burden of Proof." So, some basics. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof "Burden of proof (also known as onus probandi in Latin) is the obligation on somebody presenting a new idea (a claim) to provide evidence to support its truth (a warrant). Once evidence has been presented, it is up to any opposing "side" to prove the evidence presented is not adequate. Burdens of proof are key to having logically valid statements: if claims were accepted without warrants, then every claim could simultaneously be claimed to be true. " "If someone has presented you with an idea and says that the burden of proof is on you to disprove the idea, work out what the null hypothesis is and then put their evidence for the idea against it. The person claiming something is possible or has happened needs to produce evidence to refute the null hypothesis." "Fallacious shifting of the burden of proof occurs if someone makes a claim that needs justification, then demands that the opponent justify the opposite of the claim. The opponent has no such burden until evidence is presented for the claim. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_burden_of_proof "One way in which one would attempt to shift the burden of proof is by committing a logical fallacy known as the argument from ignorance. It occurs when either a proposition is assumed to be true because it has not yet been proved false or a proposition is assumed to be false because it has not yet been proved true." http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Extraordinary_claims_require_extraordinary_evidence " "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" was a phrase made popular by Carl Sagan. However, Laplace writes: "The weight of evidence for an extraordinary claim must be proportioned to its strangeness."[1] Also, David Hume wrote in 1748: "A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence", and "No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish."[2] and Marcello Truzzi says: "An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof."[3] Either way, the phrase is central to the scientific method, and a key issue for critical thinking, rational thought and skepticism everywhere. The evidence put forth by proponents of such things as gods, ghosts, the paranormal, and UFOs is highly questionable at best and offers little in the way of proof. Even if we accepted what evidence there is as valid (and it is highly debatable if we should), limited and weak evidence is not enough to overcome the extraordinary nature of these claims." "Alice and Bob are two friends talking after school. Alice tells Bob that she watched a movie the previous evening. Bob believes her easily, because he knows that movies exist, that Alice exists, and that Alice is capable and fond of watching movies. If he doubts her, he might ask for a ticket stub or a confirmation from one of her friends. If, however, Alice tells Bob that she flew on a unicorn to a fairy kingdom where she participated in an ambrosia-eating contest, and she produces a professionally-printed contest certificate and a friend who would testify to the events described, Bob would still not be inclined to believe her without strong evidence for the existence of flying unicorns, fairies and ambrosia-eating contests. " =============================================================== So, where does the burden of proof lie? With a little practice, this is easy to determine. Find the original assertive claim. THAT is the statement that must be proven. If the supposed "original" claim is SKEPTICAL (it says something DIDN'T happen or is IMPOSSIBLE, for example), then look further back. THAT statement is challenging a preceding statement that something DID happen or CAN happen. THAT's the claim that needs to be proven. One does not definitively prove the NON-existence of something-one proves the existence of it. Example: A standing claim exists for a town that it was founded in 1491 by Don Rodrigo Diaz de Carreras. The entire town accepts this as fact. One day, someone comes along and loudly insists that this can't possibly be true-he was never anywhere NEAR that town! Who has the Burden of Proof? Someone claimed once that the person speaking up "first" or "LOUDEST" has the burden of proof. That's never been so. In this case, the Burden of Proof is on the townsfolk to provide SOME evidence for their claim. Do they have evidence Don Rodrigo was in the area, or documentation of their founding, or some other reason to believe their account other than "we're sure this is right"? If not, then they failed to meet the burden of proof. It's obvious the town exists, but they can't prove Don Rodrigo founded it. It's a separate issue of the new arrival can also provide evidence that the town was founded after Don Rodrigo's death and he was never on that continent, but that's not necessary under the burden of proof. If they want to consider that SEPERATELY ("The town was founded by COLUMBUS in 1942"), then that's a different question and now a different burden of proof must be met. Really, this isn't hard.

By the way, on solstice weekend I'm going to Stonehenge to minister to druids!! Street Pastors from various locations around Stonehenge are invited to go and help look after the hundreds of people at the Solstice. Some attendees will fancy themselves as druids, some are just nature lovers, others will be in for the thrill of doing something different. What an opportunity to witness to anybody interested in telling them about the Son, not the Sun!

Hear, hear, T-Bone. Innies, GET OUT NOW and find a rich and abundant life where you are FREE TO SERVE and free to develop that love that God has instilled in you. See the many ways people genuinely serve their communities. Engage in startling discourse. You may even find that some of the "special knowledge" that TWI is the guardian of - are widely known in the church. And other "special knowledge" is so irrelevant that nobody cares a whit.

I came upon this thread indirectly – I think from Skyrider making reference to it on his 1989-1998 Timeline: Insanity on Steroids thread…anyway, just wanted to comment here. At Grease Spot I occasionally experience little “realizations”….it’s getting another small glimpse of the big picture…another layer of the onion is peeled back. I love to analyze something to the nth degree but that can only get you so far if all you’re doing is theorizing with little practical experience in the matter. Regarding another thread The Way Corps: Victims or Oppressors I was trying to narrow down the reason for TWI’s quick demise – and Skyrider made the point one could easily make the case for multiple factors in its downfall – and the most notable factor in my opinion – now, after mulling over this thread – is the unreasonable and unsustainable demands made on the way corps. My wife and I left TWI barely out of in-residence way corps training. We were not yet worn down by years of the daily grind as active corps on the field. Regarding “a lifetime of Christian service” – we were just cranking up the old treadmill. After reading Penworks’ Undertow, and some of the stories of Skyrider and other seasoned corps – I feel a tinge of survivor’s guilt in that I was not put through the wringer - aka the daily grind of the TWI-machine – a lean, mean, exploiting machine – and from what I gather, the wheels turned slowly but ground exceedingly fine. I want to leave a final note to way corps still involved with TWI. I still have fond memories of the many good and decent folks I met while at the Rome City campus. We were all so idealistic, filled with hope, determined that we would make a difference in The Way and in the world. And to you all I say…you deserve better ! You should find a group, a charity, a church, a community, a service…someplace that is worthy of your talents. You are not disposable! Love and peace T-Bone

Some great points OldSkool - and after mulling over what you said it got me thinking of TWI's tendency to whitewash anything that could tarnish vpw's legacy - whether it's his books or "shiny" example of a minister of God. This post is for those still in TWI , offshoots , and yes even the "new and improved" revival and reboot group or for that matter, anyone who thinks it's ok to recommend his books, reference his books, draw inspiration from his books or his "shiny" example. Something is so wrong when a supposedly Christian organization elevates the importance of protecting, smoothing over the rough edges, correcting or whatever whitewashing is necessary concerning vpw's "writings" instead of exposing and correcting how vpw ....or any of his admirers - have treated their most committed followers. ...."but he taught us the word like it hasn't been known for centuries..." you say. Really?!?! Maybe one should reevaluate that - yes, exactly what is "the word" that vpw often referred to. I guess he can't be referring to the scriptures like "love thy neighbor as thyself" which for centuries most Christians have known as being being the second great commandment and in my opinion is the other half of the gold standard for Christianity - it's what God values - love for God and love for your neighbor. If there's any concern for getting back to the basics - then what about the passages in Corinthians, Timothy, and Peter, which for centuries have been the basis for how real God-fearing churches set standards of operation ....like how to deal with unchecked sexual misconduct that can ravage an entire congregation ....or how to qualify - or if need be - disqualify those in leadership roles. Apparently vpw and his staunch admirers have taken some kind of "hypocritical oath" - so that they're above all that. And they are supposed to be ministers of God !!!!! Why do some animals eat their young? I don't know...and why are there some religious leaders who persecute, exploit, and ravage their own congregation and still think they are serving God ...Jesus talked about something along those lines in John 16:2. Just saying...maybe some folks need to recalibrate their scale of values.

caught the last 15 minutes of it - didn't know it was on....anyway - when she's reading a letter from her Mom and the gist of the letter was that her Mom did not like her talking bad about Barnard who victimized her daughter for years! She made some comment along the lines of how powerful an influence Barnard has over his followers - wow - no $hit !!!!! I think being a cult survivor myself gives me a weird dual mental processor sometimes - in that I can understand cult tactics from two different angles: first and foremost - from a sane person's viewpoint- all I can say is how horrible...despicable...and almost unbelievably evil someone like Barnard can be While at the same time I can understand the blinding and emotionally-numbing mindset a cult leader will foster in his followers - that can even subvert the natural familial instincts of a parent - like her mom siding with the sexual predator of her own child...I can understand how that mindset is so powerful - but I also think that too is horrible...despicable...and almost unbelievably evil - that a cult leader will instill unnatural familial-like "instincts" in followers ....yeah vpw "our father in the word" - not on your life - I ran away from my TWI "home" to escape from that evil step-dad. i must say she is a very courageous and strong woman for speaking out about this stuff ! And I'm glad she has a very supportive aunt too.

I have to interject that what T-Bone has said here resonates loudly with my own personal experience. "Spirit can only speak to spirit" is one of the major stumbling blocks and flaws in the so-called "Great Principle". There's lots of past discussion here if anyone is interested in looking at it in greater detail The "Keys to Walking by The Spirit" checklist on page 15 of the Advanced Class syllabus. Comical to think about it now, in a sad kind of way. I wonder where VP got this list. Surely he couldn't have authored it himself and included the prerequisite of humility. The Advanced Class has to have been one of the most depressing two week events I ever experienced during my time in The Way. Such high expectations. So little realization of them. I want to say it was a waste of time but it was so much more beyond that.

HA! This whole thing sounds so much like Fellowlaborers, it's creepy. Our program was miniscule in comparison. We only graduated about 50 per year. There is only one other FLO that I know of that even posts here.(her hubby was FLO, also) We were supposed to commit ourselves to a total immersion type training program for 2 years and then return to our home areas as twig leaders, etc., even though I had already functioned at that level before becoming FLO. That was all I really wanted when I signed up. (To become a better leader for the people in the area I lived in.) We were promised an in-depth teaching of The Book Of Acts. Riiiight! Instead, we lived in a commune, had very little truly academic training and subjected ourselves to a grueling schedule of mundane chores and meeting after meeting where we were constantly chastised for not living up to our "true potential". On the plus side, I learned to make my own mayo from scratch and sprout mung beans and alfalfa, both being quite useful skills to possess as leaders of God's people. Ouch! I think I just bit my tongue. When the 2 years were finished, our home areas had changed so much we might as well have just moved to Mars. Sorry---Guess I got a bit off topic.

I concur, Skyrider, yet another excellent thread by you. I was happy to see that H@yward and N@ncy left too. It's no doubt a scary step, especially for folks who have devoted so much of their lives to TWI and doubly because they walk away with absolutely nothing to show for it. If it weren't for Boob and Dooty's inheritances they would be looking at a miserable time in their sunset years - in or out. As it is, thankfully their parents were much smarter than they, themselves are. They just won't have much to pass on to their own flesh & blood because of the choices they've made to cover for those wolves in sheep clothing. If they were really smart, they'd encourage Bri@n to get back out into the "real" world and get a "real" job with benefits, a retirement plan, job security and control over his own money, time, family and life. Even TWI's laughable retirement plan requires, what, 20 years or something absurd like that before one is fully vested? That gives TWI a very easy way to ensure that nobody collects on those funds. Expendable people - that's all people are to them..... and don't think that just because you *think* you're near the top of the food chain that you're protected. Haven't the Horn3y's been doing some "side" work? Trying to bolster the college fund for the kids? The nest egg? Working toward actually getting "real" jobs and really doing something worthwhile with their lives? One can only hope.

The policy of people as DISPOSABLE was begun with vpw, and has continued to this day. Most of the people don't see THEMSELVES as disposable, which means when the FIND THAT OUT, it causes conflict. Further, the "present truth" is a continually-moving-goalpost, and twi drones have to keep moving continually to keep hitting it, and that means they have to just embrace EVERY thing that comes out of twi even if it contradicts what came out of twi YESTERDAY. Eventually, most people either notice it and get tired of it, or get sick and tired of being sick and tired. Finally, getting older and not being on the bod is frowned-upon by twi, which means that eventually twi will disapprove of you for the sin of getting older, and for doing ANYTHING OTHER THAN JUST FOLLOW THEM BLINDLY AND SEND IN ALL THEIR MONEY. Of course, some followers have been successfully conditioned to NEVER THINK, which means the blindingly obvious is still not visible to them even if transparent. Everyone else, the information is at their fingertips. For which I will be among the many that will take a bow. True, UNChristian, and nonsensical. Small wonder that those who CAN think eventually "jump ship." And that's one thing that gives me a warm feeling, even in winter. (That and chili.)