As usual, I think you should go back and remove a detail or two - it's really not good to put names of people still in twi in posts. It can cause her problems she's not equipped to deal with. Her parents may get hassled and told to stop this relationship before you two have a real shot at seeing if you're compatible.
I also think she's second generation twi. I pray you can help her see clearly. It's very difficult to explain, but even when I was kicked out over false accusations, I wanted to go back more than I wanted anything. I wanted to clear up what appeared to me to be a terrible mistake. I had only been in twi 15 years, not my entire lifetime like your girlfriend.
I think you're going to need patience and wisdom. I think you're a smart man and will do just fine. Just remember to protect her heart by not exposing her to avoidable pain. And pray a lot.
I had a brother-in-law that was a minister when I first got into twi. I gave him a copy of the blue book to support my position. He wrote me an 11 pages of legal paper rebuttal. He was educated in theology and biblical research - yet I was convinced I knew more of the truth than he did. I won our debates.
I hope you can continue to be a soft place for her to land, so to speak. My prayers remain with you, your girl and her family.
I can't add much more than bowtwi just said except for one question. I gather from your post that this story is readable elsewhere here and I'm sorry to have missed it.
My question is whether or not this is your first knowing that her mother knew Wierwille, this hadn't come up before?
I ask because that is usually one of the first things people speak of. Not always, but often, since it is, for some, a huge deal.
Maybe it just didn't come up, maybe since she's young, she didn't see it as a big deal and maybe it's not. It shouldn't be, but is to so many.
If the relationship is important to you, then it's important to keep the dialogue going and, as has been mentioned, comfort and tenderness to her.
Things are what they are until they aren't anymore and she has to decide what she wants to do, for her.
I wish we could just tell people we love "knock it off" but often resentments follow; maybe not sooner, but often later, certainly eventually.
You've been given what is likely enough information on the organization from here at Greasespot Cafe and talking personally to others and hopefully doing your own research.
There are also relationships, even now in twi, where one of a couple attend twi functions and the other does not.
It's a very private choice for she and you alone. You and she have to find what each can live with and then figure out how to make that happen.
I had three very close friends. Mike and Jane Moody (both now deceased), and Mary (to whom I was later married to for 10 years) The four of us were a part of a group called "The Lighthouse". It was a group of like-minded Bible-believing folks that met on Friday nights -- and besides the fellowship that evening -- people would tell about OTHER fellowships they had run across for those of us there to check out if we wanted to.
Nother words -- the Lighthouse fellowship was a *clearinghouse* for those who attended,
to find other fellowships that complemented the one we all were in, with the EXPRESS idea that additiional fellowship (outside of the Lighthouse) could be found in other areas also.
1974 --- I went to Italy as a *missiionary* with the OM group.
(OM --- stands for Operation Mobilization -- George Verwer was their leader).
When I left US soil --- Mary, Mike, and Jane were still affliated with the Lighhouse.
When I returned 3 or 4 months later --- they were ALL involved with twi!
I won't say that the friendship that we had previously was gone entirely,
but I will say it was strained, to say the least, until I took pfaL, like they all had.
Things were then *rosy*, and returned to *normal* for the 4 of us.
Fast forward 10 or so years to 1987 or so ----
Mike and Jane -- and Mary and I started seeing the DUPLICITY of twi.
Mike and Jane saw it first. They warned us early on about what was going on.
They had contacts higher up than Mary and I did, and they knew that some serious $h!t was being hidden by twi in the "not for public view" section of their ministry.
Brushstroke. Do yourself a favor.
Either convert this gal to YOUR way of thinking (not likely);
or find someone else.
I followed my friends into the twi pit, and was there for 10 years.
Luckily --- we all got out at the same time.
Please -- don't do what I did, those many years ago.
Well it is a rare occasion, but I totally agree with cman.
If you care about this girl then show her that and avoid the religious debates. If you want to show her there is something better outside of TWI then show her that something is you or someone like you or a life like yours. Don't just show her how wrong she and twi are.
Lots of good wisdom here…thought I’d throw in my two cents – a penny for each point.
One of the biggest things I’ve realized from my experience during and after TWI is that doctrine affects practice. When you draw upon the principles of your belief system in a decision-making context this becomes readily apparent…And I think decision-making issues become a BIGGER DEAL when a couple gets married – because the details, priorities, consequences, etc., touch at least TWO people – more if they have kids. It helps if both people are sort of on the same page.
My other point is how TWI folks tend to have an inflexible belief system. Arguments for some of their beliefs are intellectually weak [like the law of believing, vp’s doctrines were God-breathed, their version of charismatic principles]. And because of that, resort to a mindless defense of their position by simply reiterating TWI doctrine. And in my opinion, a lot of their bullying tactics are due to this mental insecurity. They can make the littlest thing a big issue if it challenges their belief system – even if it’s the challenging details of reality…In a dilemma [or some situation where two people have to work together to solve a problem], when you mix a TWI person with a non-TWI person – the TWI person will typically “spiritualize” everything, ignore common sense, polarize sides and endeavor to make a mountain out of a molehill.
Lots of good wisdom here…thought I’d throw in my two cents – a penny for each point.
One of the biggest things I’ve realized from my experience during and after TWI is that doctrine affects practice. When you draw upon the principles of your belief system in a decision-making context this becomes readily apparent…And I think decision-making issues become a BIGGER DEAL when a couple gets married – because the details, priorities, consequences, etc., touch at least TWO people – more if they have kids. It helps if both people are sort of on the same page.
My other point is how TWI folks tend to have an inflexible belief system. Arguments for some of their beliefs are intellectually weak [like the law of believing, vp’s doctrines were God-breathed, their version of charismatic principles]. And because of that, resort to a mindless defense of their position by simply reiterating TWI doctrine. And in my opinion, a lot of their bullying tactics are due to this mental insecurity. They can make the littlest thing a big issue if it challenges their belief system – even if it’s the challenging details of reality…In a dilemma [or some situation where two people have to work together to solve a problem], when you mix a TWI person with a non-TWI person – the TWI person will typically “spiritualize” everything, ignore common sense, polarize sides and endeavor to make a mountain out of a molehill.
I've actually noticed this with Steph. We had a discussion regarding the deity of Christ a few months back, and I was pointing out passages that quite explicitly deem Him to be God, explaining the context and quoting some first-century church fathers and asking why they thought of Him as God when Wierwille does not, asking her to explain why these passages say this and why Wierwille thinks differently, or why he went to the trouble of translating the Greek scriptures in a new way when scribes in monasteries who spoke the original languages had been writing copies of the scriptures for years. And, I hate to say this but this was what it appeared as...all she did was either not answer my question (avoid it) and go to another passage to support her position, or just say something that I've read by Wierwille. It troubles me. We can talk about our beliefs and why we believe what we believe just fine, but the way she inadvertently avoids my questions deeply concerns me.
But yes lindyhopper, we should avoid the debates. We've agreed that maybe when I go to see her in May, that we'll go to a church of my affliation, and then attend a fellowship of hers (would you recommend this?). Just to get an idea of where each other is coming from (I will clarify to her that this is the only reason I want to attend). But yeah...should be interesting.
Brushstroke/Phil, sorry to disapoint you but your girlfriend is living with her parents(not alone in an apartment which might have made it easier) and proably will not allow you to take her to a Greek Orthodox church(heretics according to TWI), but will strongly suggest that you attend home (formerly Twig) fellowship and will "love-bomb" you as pretenious friendly people who care about you. Beware as 1st Peter says"The Devil roams as a roaring lion, seeking to devour you". Ask S**** if she uses other translations and paraphrases besides King James Version regularly. I would suggest New Revised Standard Version, New International Version, English Standard Version, New Living Translation, New Centuary Version, or Contemporary English Version. Be careful however, for some will use these to prove their points, along with Charles Williams, Ronald Knox, James Moffat, Robert Young, and Ethelbert Bullinger's Companion Bible(KJV with explanatory notes and almost 200 appendices). BTW, I am Lutheran and admire Orthodox music and icons.
I hope that you know your girlfriend well enough to have a feel for if she's speaking for herself of if she's having her strings pulled by others. ( possibilities include parents and/ or coordinators ) You seem inteligent and capable enough, it seems you get councel from your priest too!
Thomas just mentioned the " love-bomb" as a tactic and I have to tell you that it brings back memories. In my case the memories of being love-bombed also include a deliberate and long-lasting attempt to break me with the other hand so to speak.
It is not easy to face, but even if they convince you of certain doctrinal points their potential overall effect on your life may certainly be less than the best to say the least. In my experience even good doctrine can mask ravening wolves. It is likely that most involved are ignorant of this if that is truly how it is.
Are you sure this family is still IN TWI? The reason I ask--how many upstanding TWI parents would let their daughter have a serious boyfriend who is an unbeliever(which, in their eyes, you are) because being unequally yoked is BAD!--especially if you are not flirting with taking the class etc?
Do her parents know about you?
What classes has she had? In TWI kids that age are expected to get into the Advanced Class. And they are expected to obey their parents, who obey their leadership etc.
If these are old grads, who revere Dr Weirwille's doctrine but are not actually IN TWI, it all might be much easier. Perhaps they are not living in a culture of micromanagement by leader ship.
Either convert this gal to YOUR way of thinking (not likely);
or find someone else.
David, is this really what you meant to say? (bold added by me)
That sounds way too much like what those in the Way would say;
it doesn't sound like your usual reasonable self.
Linda --- No it wasn't. Thank you for pointing out the OBVIOUS that I should have seen before I hit the *enter* button. Sometimes I type faster than I think, and it's kinda like I talk at times. My Tangue gets all toungled up in my eye teeth --- and I can't see what I'm saying!!
No --I didn't mean that in that way at all. I guess what I DID mean to convey was that he should convince her to look at other options. (As we all know ---) *other* options in twi are about as welcome as a Ferrari salesman at a Yugo convention. I'm a BIG fan of thinking for one's self, and no -- I wouldn't suggest (even though I did, inadvertently) that one could or should CONTROL another.
He has his head screwed on straight (my imo), and she, given her affiliation to twi -- does not.
I guess my main point was not about control -- but rather deliverance/ guidance. For her.
Again -- thank you for pointing out my agregious error and *mis-speak*.
Too bad you couldn't have corrected all docvic's words --- when you were on the Way magazine!
Dunno if the world would be a better place -- but I suspect so! ;)
i was out with my children taking a nice walk in the summers eve.
this man started flirting with me , ... invited me to a party at a very expensive hotel in a nearby city with some firends .
so I said ok
got a babysitter
dressed up
drove there.
it was a coffe house you know with the music and the green card on every table
i meant my new twig coordeinator who got my phone number and that was all it took to be my instant friend,
the guy was married and it was in july he was getting ready to leave for the corp.
the nice new friend who loved me so and new guy i just met was the BC sister in law.
they wanted and was easy on pretty young girls because they were good bait and could hold a conversatio long enough to get someone to sign up or at least get their number . i was one.
once she got my number it was a constant Hi what ya doing wanna come over? and the hard sell began.
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dmiller
Brushstroke --- hey there. :)
I knew docvic too, but from a distance.
And I'm not a female, so that enters into the equation as well.
Docvic was a drunk and skirt-chaser. Sorry --- but bluntly --- there it is.
He (docvic) was a charismatic leader, and conned a lot of folks (myself included).
I'm one of the one's (here) who feel he taught some things right,
and some things wrong. How well did her mother know him??
Was she in twi 1?? From what you said she must've been.
If (and that's a big IF) your girlfriend REALLY listens to her mother;
it's YOU that is going to be required to adhere to THEIR beliefs,
and not the other way around.
Just a head's up for you here. Twi hasn't changed, over all these years.
They don't join you -- you join them.
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Brushstroke
Yeah...umm...that's not going to happen.
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cheranne
Tell her to choose YOU or The Way.(period) My husand told me this 26 years ago,when he was just in the pfal class
(he saw thru the bs too!!! Like you very wise.
I married him(26 yrs now) very happy without twi ,life is better without the way.
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Jim
In the words of Mr.T,
"I predict - pain"
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bowtwi
My thoughts?
As usual, I think you should go back and remove a detail or two - it's really not good to put names of people still in twi in posts. It can cause her problems she's not equipped to deal with. Her parents may get hassled and told to stop this relationship before you two have a real shot at seeing if you're compatible.
I also think she's second generation twi. I pray you can help her see clearly. It's very difficult to explain, but even when I was kicked out over false accusations, I wanted to go back more than I wanted anything. I wanted to clear up what appeared to me to be a terrible mistake. I had only been in twi 15 years, not my entire lifetime like your girlfriend.
I think you're going to need patience and wisdom. I think you're a smart man and will do just fine. Just remember to protect her heart by not exposing her to avoidable pain. And pray a lot.
I had a brother-in-law that was a minister when I first got into twi. I gave him a copy of the blue book to support my position. He wrote me an 11 pages of legal paper rebuttal. He was educated in theology and biblical research - yet I was convinced I knew more of the truth than he did. I won our debates.
I hope you can continue to be a soft place for her to land, so to speak. My prayers remain with you, your girl and her family.
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Shellon
I can't add much more than bowtwi just said except for one question. I gather from your post that this story is readable elsewhere here and I'm sorry to have missed it.
My question is whether or not this is your first knowing that her mother knew Wierwille, this hadn't come up before?
I ask because that is usually one of the first things people speak of. Not always, but often, since it is, for some, a huge deal.
Maybe it just didn't come up, maybe since she's young, she didn't see it as a big deal and maybe it's not. It shouldn't be, but is to so many.
If the relationship is important to you, then it's important to keep the dialogue going and, as has been mentioned, comfort and tenderness to her.
Things are what they are until they aren't anymore and she has to decide what she wants to do, for her.
I wish we could just tell people we love "knock it off" but often resentments follow; maybe not sooner, but often later, certainly eventually.
You've been given what is likely enough information on the organization from here at Greasespot Cafe and talking personally to others and hopefully doing your own research.
There are also relationships, even now in twi, where one of a couple attend twi functions and the other does not.
It's a very private choice for she and you alone. You and she have to find what each can live with and then figure out how to make that happen.
I, too, shall pray with you and your families.
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dmiller
I was a Jesus Freak back in the early 1970's.
I had three very close friends. Mike and Jane Moody (both now deceased), and Mary (to whom I was later married to for 10 years) The four of us were a part of a group called "The Lighthouse". It was a group of like-minded Bible-believing folks that met on Friday nights -- and besides the fellowship that evening -- people would tell about OTHER fellowships they had run across for those of us there to check out if we wanted to.
Nother words -- the Lighthouse fellowship was a *clearinghouse* for those who attended,
to find other fellowships that complemented the one we all were in, with the EXPRESS idea that additiional fellowship (outside of the Lighthouse) could be found in other areas also.
1974 --- I went to Italy as a *missiionary* with the OM group.
(OM --- stands for Operation Mobilization -- George Verwer was their leader).
When I left US soil --- Mary, Mike, and Jane were still affliated with the Lighhouse.
When I returned 3 or 4 months later --- they were ALL involved with twi!
I won't say that the friendship that we had previously was gone entirely,
but I will say it was strained, to say the least, until I took pfaL, like they all had.
Things were then *rosy*, and returned to *normal* for the 4 of us.
Fast forward 10 or so years to 1987 or so ----
Mike and Jane -- and Mary and I started seeing the DUPLICITY of twi.
Mike and Jane saw it first. They warned us early on about what was going on.
They had contacts higher up than Mary and I did, and they knew that some serious $h!t was being hidden by twi in the "not for public view" section of their ministry.
Brushstroke. Do yourself a favor.
Either convert this gal to YOUR way of thinking (not likely);
or find someone else.
I followed my friends into the twi pit, and was there for 10 years.
Luckily --- we all got out at the same time.
Please -- don't do what I did, those many years ago.
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Oakspear
Yeah...um...listen to dmiller
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T-Bone
And don't forget Mr.T's warning about the parasites and leeches.
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cman
I don't know......
I think I'd lay off the doctrinal discussions and just live and have fun.
If you get invited to a fellowship, just turn it down.
I'd advise anyone to stay away from any way ministry function.
But anyway, just live and love and do your thing.
The way is restrictive and promotes slavery to it's cause.
Don't get caught in that trap with any religion.
Stay free, be yourself and she will either stick with you or not.
I somehow think this could be a witnessing thing on her part.
So if you don't bring up the doctrine/religion/God thing.
See if she does and handle it with care.
But I'd stay away from any meetings.
It's a spider web and many have been caught in it.
It's not cause you are afraid. it's cause you ain't dumb now.
Since you came here and got some answers.
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doojable
"That's how we get them in the Way Ministry..." VPW ~ PFAL '77
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Linda Z
DMiller said:
David, is this really what you meant to say? (bold added by me)
That sounds way too much like what those in the Way would say; it doesn't sound like your usual reasonable self.
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lindyhopper
Well it is a rare occasion, but I totally agree with cman.
If you care about this girl then show her that and avoid the religious debates. If you want to show her there is something better outside of TWI then show her that something is you or someone like you or a life like yours. Don't just show her how wrong she and twi are.
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T-Bone
Lots of good wisdom here…thought I’d throw in my two cents – a penny for each point.
One of the biggest things I’ve realized from my experience during and after TWI is that doctrine affects practice. When you draw upon the principles of your belief system in a decision-making context this becomes readily apparent…And I think decision-making issues become a BIGGER DEAL when a couple gets married – because the details, priorities, consequences, etc., touch at least TWO people – more if they have kids. It helps if both people are sort of on the same page.
My other point is how TWI folks tend to have an inflexible belief system. Arguments for some of their beliefs are intellectually weak [like the law of believing, vp’s doctrines were God-breathed, their version of charismatic principles]. And because of that, resort to a mindless defense of their position by simply reiterating TWI doctrine. And in my opinion, a lot of their bullying tactics are due to this mental insecurity. They can make the littlest thing a big issue if it challenges their belief system – even if it’s the challenging details of reality…In a dilemma [or some situation where two people have to work together to solve a problem], when you mix a TWI person with a non-TWI person – the TWI person will typically “spiritualize” everything, ignore common sense, polarize sides and endeavor to make a mountain out of a molehill.
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Brushstroke
I've actually noticed this with Steph. We had a discussion regarding the deity of Christ a few months back, and I was pointing out passages that quite explicitly deem Him to be God, explaining the context and quoting some first-century church fathers and asking why they thought of Him as God when Wierwille does not, asking her to explain why these passages say this and why Wierwille thinks differently, or why he went to the trouble of translating the Greek scriptures in a new way when scribes in monasteries who spoke the original languages had been writing copies of the scriptures for years. And, I hate to say this but this was what it appeared as...all she did was either not answer my question (avoid it) and go to another passage to support her position, or just say something that I've read by Wierwille. It troubles me. We can talk about our beliefs and why we believe what we believe just fine, but the way she inadvertently avoids my questions deeply concerns me.
But yes lindyhopper, we should avoid the debates. We've agreed that maybe when I go to see her in May, that we'll go to a church of my affliation, and then attend a fellowship of hers (would you recommend this?). Just to get an idea of where each other is coming from (I will clarify to her that this is the only reason I want to attend). But yeah...should be interesting.
Que sera sera, I suppose.
~Phil
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Brushstroke/Phil, sorry to disapoint you but your girlfriend is living with her parents(not alone in an apartment which might have made it easier) and proably will not allow you to take her to a Greek Orthodox church(heretics according to TWI), but will strongly suggest that you attend home (formerly Twig) fellowship and will "love-bomb" you as pretenious friendly people who care about you. Beware as 1st Peter says"The Devil roams as a roaring lion, seeking to devour you". Ask S**** if she uses other translations and paraphrases besides King James Version regularly. I would suggest New Revised Standard Version, New International Version, English Standard Version, New Living Translation, New Centuary Version, or Contemporary English Version. Be careful however, for some will use these to prove their points, along with Charles Williams, Ronald Knox, James Moffat, Robert Young, and Ethelbert Bullinger's Companion Bible(KJV with explanatory notes and almost 200 appendices). BTW, I am Lutheran and admire Orthodox music and icons.
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JeffSjo
Dear Brushstroke,
I hope that you know your girlfriend well enough to have a feel for if she's speaking for herself of if she's having her strings pulled by others. ( possibilities include parents and/ or coordinators ) You seem inteligent and capable enough, it seems you get councel from your priest too!
Thomas just mentioned the " love-bomb" as a tactic and I have to tell you that it brings back memories. In my case the memories of being love-bombed also include a deliberate and long-lasting attempt to break me with the other hand so to speak.
It is not easy to face, but even if they convince you of certain doctrinal points their potential overall effect on your life may certainly be less than the best to say the least. In my experience even good doctrine can mask ravening wolves. It is likely that most involved are ignorant of this if that is truly how it is.
Even though you seem very capable, I'm concerned.
Take care Brushstroke!!
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copenhagen
Brushstroke,
Take all the advice given here at the cafe and consider one thing.
If she will not budge on her twi doctrine where will it leave you?
I ask this question only to get you to think. All of what the other posters are
saying about twi is true.
You have described my wife perfectly.
Mother knew vp, raised from birth in the twi.
Can not have a logical conversation about relgion with out spouting way doctrine.
Can not see past way doctrine. Can not consider way doctrine could be wrong.
That is her bad side, her other side is she is the girl everyone wants to be around.
Every one likes her. She see's the best in you. Builds you up, takes care of you in all
aspects of life.
My problam is 10 years ago I wanted out of the way, she will not leave.
The way int is ingrainded in her. TWI equals the only way to God.
With out the way there is no walk or fellowship with God.
If you take the way and all of its doctrines out of her, she in her own mind will lose
God. There is no diffrence between God and the way.
It is your choice hers has already been made..
copenhagen
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excathedra
how old are you two ? sorry if this been's covered
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Brushstroke
She and I are both 18.
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Bramble
Are you sure this family is still IN TWI? The reason I ask--how many upstanding TWI parents would let their daughter have a serious boyfriend who is an unbeliever(which, in their eyes, you are) because being unequally yoked is BAD!--especially if you are not flirting with taking the class etc?
Do her parents know about you?
What classes has she had? In TWI kids that age are expected to get into the Advanced Class. And they are expected to obey their parents, who obey their leadership etc.
If these are old grads, who revere Dr Weirwille's doctrine but are not actually IN TWI, it all might be much easier. Perhaps they are not living in a culture of micromanagement by leader ship.
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dmiller
Linda --- No it wasn't. Thank you for pointing out the OBVIOUS that I should have seen before I hit the *enter* button.
Sometimes I type faster than I think, and it's kinda like I talk at times. My Tangue gets all toungled up in my eye teeth --- and I can't see what I'm saying!!
No --I didn't mean that in that way at all. I guess what I DID mean to convey was that he should convince her to look at other options. (As we all know ---) *other* options in twi are about as welcome as a Ferrari salesman at a Yugo convention. I'm a BIG fan of thinking for one's self, and no -- I wouldn't suggest (even though I did, inadvertently) that one could or should CONTROL another.
He has his head screwed on straight (my imo), and she, given her affiliation to twi -- does not.
I guess my main point was not about control -- but rather deliverance/ guidance. For her.
Again -- thank you for pointing out my agregious error and *mis-speak*.
Too bad you couldn't have corrected all docvic's words --- when you were on the Way magazine!
Dunno if the world would be a better place -- but I suspect so! ;)
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cman
I don't think she considers him a boyfriend. Though I could be wrong.
She is witnessing and getting him to fellowship with twi.
This is surely what it sounds like.
We have seen and done it ourselves while in twi.
Or this whole thing is a hoax, which is possible.....
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pond
cman
that is how i got involved .
i was out with my children taking a nice walk in the summers eve.
this man started flirting with me , ... invited me to a party at a very expensive hotel in a nearby city with some firends .
so I said ok
got a babysitter
dressed up
drove there.
it was a coffe house you know with the music and the green card on every table
i meant my new twig coordeinator who got my phone number and that was all it took to be my instant friend,
the guy was married and it was in july he was getting ready to leave for the corp.
the nice new friend who loved me so and new guy i just met was the BC sister in law.
they wanted and was easy on pretty young girls because they were good bait and could hold a conversatio long enough to get someone to sign up or at least get their number . i was one.
once she got my number it was a constant Hi what ya doing wanna come over? and the hard sell began.
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