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Perhaps this explains everything.. looking for.. kids under twenty five years old.. why? You have no use for older, experienced individuals? maybe you are "witnessing"? I know some kids under twenty five.. you can't have them.. sowey.. they are smarter than the average "witnesser".. even without my personal influence.. Most "kids" under twenty five still have all of their teeth.. is that it? you've learned your master's lessons, well.. I know one of them.. who abandoned your kind of nonsense.. and found the Roman Catholic faith more palatable, than what you have to offer..

My wayfer folks taught me if I want to buy a house I should wait for some of our relatives to die. The inherited money they leave would help to not go into debt and stay right with God. They did not have any other ideas. It's good to give your children goals and nice things to look forward to, right?

And to think back to the 70's when Dr Cyclops was teaching in rez that one of the proofs that Islam is bad is that they won't let people have any debt including a mortgage...went on and on about inhibiting people's ability to prosper - and I do mean went on and on and freaking on... What's next? L(nder the idiot, the complete red-azzed baboon disguised as a human, the piece of animal defecation starts to declare fatwahs on GSCers? Edited for this: I am running up debt so my kids can be in good universities. Guess what TWIts? If you don't like my debt on behalf of my childrens' futures feel free to take your wuss version of god and your self-centered control the planet doctrine, place them carefully in a tampon applicator and insert down your throat. Oh one more thing TWIts - god is not first in my life - my children are first - choking yet? ...and to think that lunatic organization once ordained me...any god I would worship doesn't need my money, my hands (god has no hands and all that rot), my children, nor even my allegiance. For you TWIts that put your children in the second tier, having them lose on behalf of your religious nose snot - may you cop lung fungus for withholding from your children.

So what are you REALLY producing.. child warriors.. they look innocent and all. But they are vacuous souls..

This is getting annoying ie. lets have a conversation -- then leave everyone hanging and 'skip town' look Caleb-- you arent some exception to the rule--we are all very busy--if you are going to stick to your word and represent your org as you said that you would then start participating and answering. If you are just another untrustable run of the mill BS'er ---well----we are already getting that message by your disappearance and lack of honest communication with us Its not too late to redeem yourself but your stock in my eyes is going down every passing day that you blow us off---- One thing that I can say at this point is that your silence and absence speaks as loudly as your words, even more so, and so far represents the core of the organization you graduated from very aptly. Promises promises and when it comes to owning up---zilch So far you represent them well

And spoil everyone's fun? He is a young whippersnapper who doesn't know sh!t from shinola. You know, like most of us when we were his age, only most of us didn't know it then, either. But that's different - well, at least for some of us. Linda Z, you are entirely too rational at times. I love it, but it'll cause your "reputation" to suffer.

Rummy - you know I can dish it back with the best of them. In this case I believe the young man was being flippant - nothing more. I feel the same as you about someone coming to my house acting that way, but this is a "public" place, and as such I believe it's best to diffuse rather than respond in kind.

I think this describes a lot of the situation: http://bible.cc/2_chronicles/13-7.htm Jeroboam figured out he had no need of Solomon, or of Solomon's son either.. but don't inflate your ego too much.. you are by no means a Solomon, or Rehoboam.. but you'd be surprised how small a hill of beans people will fight over..

Why else do you think old grampa vicster the first ran crying to geero in scotland? I think PART of the story is true. In his dying days, he saw the political maneuvering, the subtle behind the scenes negotiations.. in short, his *men* (if one could call it that) were actually growing up, to be just like him.. and he was POWERLESS to seize the reins again. So off he went, to what he perceived as the strongest *man(?)* in the "ministry"..to get things "in line" again.. and his *men*, along with geero, ended up carving up *his* ministry, actually whole groups of PEOPLE, like a thanksgiving turkey.. your day will come, bub..if it lasts that long.. I hope you grow eyes in the back of your head..

and this is why your organization won't last. Its built on weakness. In my opinion, also a sickness. Laziness.. Proverbs 24:10 So you can't muster up enough strength to bring about a "revival" of old ministry "values".. so what to do? Find a group of "young men and women" who will take up the cause, FOR you..offer them the moon, of course with a few conditions.. while you stay safe, hole up in the mississippi swamp, barking orders from behind the lines.. eventually, they will grow up, and figure out they have no need for you.. and they will strip you dry.. if you survive that long.. you shoulda just gone back to school, bub..

Next question. What are you going to do in twenty, thirty years, when your "staff" and "volunteers" are beginning to show the wear of age? Sure, pa, mac and a few will get a few "benefits".. without question or explanation. Or it will be something like, "we owe it.. they sacrificed their lives.. and the adversary attacked.. it's da debil's fault.." and that WILL be the spin, if they get some horrid disease, or God forbid, cancer.. will you merely hide these "issues" from the followers? I suggest history will repeat itself. You've got a doctrine which supposedly guarantees success.. a "law" that "works" for saint and sinner alike.. mathematical exactness and all. what will you do when things go "wrong"?

The thing about all of this.. there is no functional "church" to bring these issues up with. It's "loosely" affiliated with likely a half a dozen offshoots.. they must think *they* are *the church* or something like that.. if you "counselled" the *young man* (or rather, the aging morons around him) to just "follow his heart, if gawd called you to do this nonsense, by all means, go for it.." I don't want anything to do with you. You are for the lack of better words with my understanding.. "nuts".. if you are just a bystander and merely advertise his little crock of an "adventure" without some kind of honest inquiry, the same words are for you.. sorry, you're not God. I don't answer to you.. didn't you see the results of this kind of effin moronic nonsense the first time around?

Yep. And the only difference between this little "adventure" and the subject of the link.. the sowers guys carry bibles, not ak-47's. I think that could change in a heartbeat.. but to name a kid after a less than admirable character.. raise him to think he's some kind of messiah.. destined to "resurrect" da word and all.. how many false prophecies went on before him.. really, it is no less than child abuse.. in my opinion. I hold the "elders" at lower regard than him, at the moment.. I think they are despicable..

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,970386,00.html

I was wondering why my rep was going down! I was ready to go buy a black leather jacket, get some neck tattoos,and maybe push a few old ladies around after seeing that... I wouldnt like Halliday with the Yanks either... he is tough but he is beatable( I was wondering if his stock dipped some during the All-Star game). Who wouldnt want to play for Boston or NY? but I have to wonder if JP Riccardi will deal him within the division, making his job to overtake the two giants all that much harder.. Halliday has to OK the trade--after considering the success of pitchers that go from the AL to NL, I think he could be really dominant if he went to the NL and could make abigger name for himself than he has over the years by being in Toronto. of course---what do I know?

I would like to know how the whole "going to heaven and all hell can't stop you" thing is being taught now. Remember? If you could SIT... blah, blah... Your proof in the senses world...(BUT we weren't supposed to be deceived by our 5 senses!) So... let's see... I do something I KNOW is wrong. But I can SIT...oh goody! The Big Guy didn't catch that one. I'm still gonna wear a white robe. I do something I KNOW is wrong - AGAIN... check the SIT meter... Yep still going to the pearly gates. Maybe if I ramp it up a bit... OMG - this is amazing! And hey... no matter what, as long as I fess up at the end of the day He has to forgive me! WOW! What a free pass! So is there still a complete doctrine of unaccountability being taught? Is Gawd still just a puppet on a string? Is someone still teaching that with the wave of a few words and by the power of the Magic of Believing all is well? Say is isn't so...

Sadly, I thought he was a young man of his word. . . . I am working straight out this week, but how long does it take to post a few words?

I'm thinkin' Caleb's been silenced by somebody in the corporation.

I have seen Barb within the last 15 years, but not RECENTLY. She was living in northern Indiana (Merrillville or Dyer) and was married to Scott Faust. Hope this helps . . . ?

Yep. And like from the BOARD.. whoever they are.. There's Pa.. Mac.. and Junior. Is that all? I don't think a "victim" of the program is entirely qualified to answer all these questions..

which brings me to think.. What qualifications does the board have to even RECOGNIZE a "man of God" if they even ever saw one? vicster I, even with flagrant violation of biblical and moral standards, was regarded by them as a great "man of god".. and they promote another one, (potentially) like victer the first.. they've stroked his ego since day one.. probably a "nice guy".. as long as one STAYS on his "good side".. which brings me to another question: Were you free to ask/discuss anything in the program.. including details about the rotten underbelly of vic I and twi? Or would such "rebellion" be grounds for immediate dismissal? Feel free to forward these questions to the "board" if you wish. :)

Maybe emergency preparedness will be taken up a notch.

Is that a Guinness that squirrel is guzzling? maybe that's it.. guzzle down about two or three dozen of those, and the "program" will start to look a little better..

So I wonder.. what to the "board" constitutes "training in the whole word.." vic's pfal series? Does part of this concept include the vicster's claim that cancer = devil possession? if so, how do you reconcile the fact that der manogawd to the whole world succumbed to this disease? Will your group shun those who contract this disease as "contaminated", "compromised", "possessed"? If you hold the words of vic true you will.. and his own words condemned the man himself..

If one wants to teach math, chemistry, english, physics, or other field "unlike it has been known since the earth cooled".. one needs even MORE than seventeen years of formal education.. more like twenty five or so.. I think in a year's time, one might come to understand someone else's take on scripture.. how do you propose to impart this level of "knowledge" and "wisdom"? will the "inductees" emerge miraculously with a working knowledge of Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic? or will they emerge with a *closed mind* and YOUR take on the bible?

Why couldn't they just walk away, and let it be.. the older kids were smart. run as fast and as far from new knoxville that one's legs could take them.. Mac probably bought into this nonsense.. well, I wouldn't want to be an enrollee in the program when things go "wrong".. when the little mogster shows he can't live up to being the (grand)son of "gawd"..

Like the eagles song"Another false messiah". Like ole gramps,It was all about him,Teach the vord victor,too bad he did not heed that advise. Sonny boy and his prophecy?Bible says no longer jew gentile,we are all made one,Hell ignore that one look to me,I got the answers everything else forget about it. We were young too,some of the old folks over the years said,why do you think you are so different? we did this 30 years ago,nothing has changed.

rhino could you please write me at the excathedra box 328 new knoxville oh 45871

The next question.. What have they promised the "participants"? I mean.. close to a year of chopping firewood, de-stumping and de-rocking of farmland, one bizarre "extrememe" activity after another, hours upon hours of old "doc's" materials either played or boringly recited.. the constant reminder that they could be sent away at any given moment.. what's in it for them? God, gold and glory? No *normal* person would subject themselves to this kinda nonsense, just for the fun of it.. and the related question.. can the "organization" live up to the promises it insinuates? It's not the late sixties again.. there isn't a resurgence of "spirituality" that they can take advantage of, like vicster did with the old organization.. I don't think they will see the influx of people that they anticipate. Are they as naive as to think "if we build it, *they* will come.."?

I really think they've saddled him with a delusion that a whole team of oxen couldn't bear. What's he gonna do when things go *wrong*? I think the blame will go anywhere, except for his egotisical little self..

from Groucho on the schoenheit thread.. seems appropriate here. "gramps" is one of the kid's biggest heroes.. rates over dad. I think either he's really warped, or the facts of gramps real character have been carefully hidden from him, and covered up, or justified somehow. maybe a little bit of both.. he's supposed to be a college graduate.. what happened to critical thinking skills? Just drop them in less than a year and a half? Or maybe they don't teach them at that particular university anymore.. just let a handful of well past middle aged culties without a cause sucker and maneuver him in with promises of "greatness".. sheesh.

Click on the link for a lesson in how they operate that "revelation". http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/radio/...with-belle.html

hiya ham!......still no answers, eh?............. "Add to that the loose back door affiliation with cff.. somehow they consider the little cardboard website deserving of a link on their website.. and the boy has special privileges at richeson's site.." care to explain that last line a little further for those of us who don't go there?..........just curious...........................peace.

Christ in the Tetons and Outward Bound are superior to Total Fitness Institute and Lead Academy, which in turn is even better that Sowers program(Way Corp re-imagined and not any better).

I really am starting to think that cff and this little endeavor are married.. just had a little private ceremony.. at the very least they must be engaged.

I am quite aware of this. That's one point where they REALLY lost me a few years ago.. the "chief speaker" at his discerning of spirits class gave such honor to the "teacher" who made it all possible.. and he was supposed to be a real spiritual guy.. With almost glazed over eyes: "I'm thankful to the MAN of GAWD who revealed these truths to us.." I almost gagged.. I thought.. sheesh, you're supposed to have some kind of connection, and you don't seem to know ANYTHING about the man you're giving this kind of honor? I knew better at the time than bringing any of the facts up.. they probably would have imagined they found a half a dozen or so spirits they were talking about to practice with.. The other occurence was just a regular "twig" of sorts.. the teacher chose the "importance of controlling one's mind".. ranted on about the evils of liberal politics.. more than suggesting that they were spiritually compromised.. and to follow such a belief may very well open one to spirits of homosexuality.. no joke. The real scary thing.. all the others in the room were bobbing their heads up and down in agreement. That was it for me.. I haven't been back since.

But why the desperate need to drag some young kids into this.. maybe it'll make the little camping experience in the woods a little more comfortable. Maybe they need omeone to chop and stack the firewood, feed and slaughter the animals, build the farm.. repair the equipment, build the fires, cook the meals.. Iit's obvious they are too old to muster up the kind of stamina to do it themselves. "This is YOUR farm. It will be what you make of it. You are always welcome here.." where have I heard that before.. Why put it on the backs of yet another generation of youth.. How many of you guys slaved away at Emporia, Rome City, HQ.. my name is in the little book in the auditorium as a contributor. I wonder if the book is even still there.

hello again, jonny lingo!..........again, i don't know who joey is, but since you quoted my post to you, and then asked me a question, i'll respond to you..........do you have difficulty referring to me as Don'tWorryBeHappy, or DWBH?.......just curious......... what was in vic's heart and mind before i had personal interactions with him (beginning in 1970 and continuing through to just a few days before he died of cancer in may, 1985)......is hard for me to honestly determine........the "events" he describes as occurring in 1942, which he referred to as the "founding" of his way ministry, are known to me only by what he says about them.....so, whether or not his descriptions of those events reflect a pure-hearted, young christian minister searching for god and his "true word" would only be a matter of my opinion............i did have access to his "personal library" during my in-residence corps years, which he granted me for reasons i do not know..........but, i read the works of rosalind rinker and e. stanley jones which were in that "personal library" of his, and which he had read himself prior to the events he recounts in 1942.........it was obvious to me, that both ms.rinker, and rev.jones, had a strong impact and influence on young vic, especially regarding personal prayer life.......but also with phrases like "the word of god is the will of god", (rosalind rinker wrote that in a pamphlet of her's that i read), "victorious living", and even "god's power to live abundantly" and "abundant living in christ" (e.stanley jones coined those phrases in the several books of his i read in that "personal library").....he was obviously impressed with rev.jones' accounts of his mission and ashram programs in india..........the lasting impact of these two influences is obvious in "works" vic would later call his own...........all i know about vic's being "led into speaking in tongues" by j.e.stiles, in tulsa,ok, 1951, is what he recounted at various sharings to the in-rez corps in '72, '73, and '74, and what he wrote in RTHST, and what is recorded in TW:LIL, and the pfal class, all of which occurred years after the actual event itself............i did read stiles' book on receiving holy spirit, which was also in that "personal library", and noticed immediately the close (literally word-for-word) "similarity to "the holy spirit book! especially after vic added bullinger's "the giver and his gifts" to the manuscript!..........i also read the syllabus vic had to b.g.leonard's "gifts of the spirit" class, which he first took in 1953..........again, the "definitions of the manifestations" almost verbatim repeated in vic's advanced class syllabus, along with the identical scripture references, and even the names "maggie muggins", and "johnny jump-up"!...........quite obvious the impact that class and syllabus had on young vic!! i also read the books by rufus mosely, glenn clark, albert cliffe, oral roberts and billy graham that were in that "personal library"............even giving oral book reports on a few of them to the in-rez corps during lunchtimes in the brc basement!...........these folks influenced vic during the post war years, 1946-1952........i read vic's pamphlet on "the dilemma of foreign missions in india", and mrs. wierwille's diary of their trip to india in 1955, (her diary that i saw consisted of both handwritten and typed entries she made during the trip.....quite interesting!)........there were also a number of correspondences between vic and his denominational leaders, written after vic's return from india, and including some of the accusations against him, which eventually led to his "separation" from the denomination......there were allegations of "financial improprieties", "deliberate misrepresentations", and even mysteriously veiled references to "personal misconduct" with his "church secretary", among the arguments over his "unofficial" trip to india!.........most intersting indeed....but, again, i was not personally present during any events prior to 1970............so, anything i would have to say about them would be in the category of "my opinion"..........also in that personal library were bullinger's "the church epistles", several volumes of bullinger's journal, "of things to come", bullinger's book on the book of revelation, "the just and the justifier", by charles welch, several volumes of welch's research journal, "the berean expositor", "the great cloud of witnesses", on the book of hebrews, and various other books that i did not read and other titles i do not remember........all-in-all, a vivid experience in reading for me as a 21 year old way corps "volunteer"! now, as to what "i have to say to that"..........it appeared to me, that during the decade of the 1940's, young vic was really worried about whether or not he had made the right choice by going "into the ministry".......he appears to me to have been genuinely searching for an answer to that nagging question,......those were the years he read e.stanley jones, rosalind rinker, glenn clark, rufus mosely, albert cliffe, oral roberts, billy graham, and various other christian authors, missionaries, theologians, philosophers.........it always intrigued me that vic dated the founding of twi as the 1942 "gas pumps revelation", followed closely by his first vesper chimes broadcast, which followed the "gas pumps" by only a few days or weeks.............i never understood the time lag of 11 to 15 years between the "founding" and the emergence of pfal into the form we came to know, which really did'nt happen until the late 50's and early 60's...........but, imo, the severe "corruption" began for vic in the fall of 1953, when he first taught b.g's. class on gifts of the spirit, calling it his own, by the second time he taught it himself in early 1954........later in 1954, after doc higgins intoduced vic to the works of e.w.bullinger, and vic "ran into" k.c. pillai, pfal began to morph into the class we all took in the 60's, 70's and 80's.....certainly, by the final days in the van wert church in 1956-1957, vic's "misbehavior", financially, sexually, and his unabashed "commitment" to the "fine art" of plagiarism in his academics and "biblical research", were firmly entrenched into his man-of-god persona, with the alcoholism pretty much in place by the mid-to-late 60's............please understand, that my opinions today reflect my entire twi experience, including the last 22 years of post-twi learning, re-examination, re-searching all the twi materials, and the works of those who had the greatest impact on vic's "spiritual developement"..............a long trip from those early in-rez daze, reading as much as i could during the times i had access to that "personal library"!.........i'm not that young, wide-eyed, idealistic, hippie i was back then, but i am surely thankful for all the good experiences i had during the years i spent in twi from 1970 to 1982.........the years from 1982-1988, were not nearly as much fun, but i sure learned alot, and i am truly happy with where my life is at today! so, jonny lingo............that's all i have to say about that!............................................peace.

From the rants on the tapes, I thought he was furious they were teaching what was supposedly ministry-owned materials. Wouldn't suprise me if they made off with a bunch of material stuff.. but who knows.. I never heard anything to really verify it. I know they had loads of books and stuff in limb bookstores. I know they made off with mailing lists.. pfal being "stolen".. I think he was furious he sold away publication rights to another madman- gear.

Let see.... Lcm after the fog years... Startrd saying people stole from the ministry... Cars pfal suppossedly money... Pfal was an issue as it was not copy righted.. Someone else may fill in the blanks... These offshoots had monies from someone..... I know he ranted and raved on the sunday tapes.. After all what I said about stealing was not based on any inside info

No disrespect to the little group they have ,Maybe Vpw2 will pull it off Now the old geezers,Well perhaps they should have looked deeper at thier old 'father in the word".A for instance my dear ole dad drank alot,he was blitzed more often than not. Do I hold anything against him?No I do notBut I do not drink and carry on either. Da vey and da father of the way needs to be scrutinzed.Mayhap we as individuals were commisioned to do that very thing. Any group,That carries on traditions of der vey,Needs no should demand they start fresh cff,ces whatever likes the traditions I know for some it is blood,Still... Not dealing with past wrong is still wrong

Having to explain to someone in admissions that you put off getting a degree, in what you're REALLY good at until you're fifty because you p*ssed away twenty five years in a "religious group" (note that I'm being kind here) isn't really all so bad..

Lets see Jeff m@@n?

They can't deliver ICBM's, that I know of, at least yet.. or bring war to our particular shore.. Second best choice? Bury us under a barrage of hard drives, cars, garden implements and kitchen appliances perhaps?

But Rocky's outrage was kinda a surprise. You'd a thought I slapped the Queen of England or something.. :) The last time I heard that kind of "correction" was about twenty five or so years ago from an equally unlikely source: a young girl who was a retired hippie of sorts.. I called vic "wierwille".. and she almost jumped out of her skin and hissed, "WE CALL HIM DOCTOR Wierwille!!!" You'd a thought I'd slapped the Queen of England or something..

I think he has a "counsel" of wierwillian yes men.. tell me if I'm wrong..

Plus someone in charge.. who is LARGELY unproved.. the kid MIGHT be qualified to run a weekend camp or something..

I dunno Is it just me or has anyone else ever noticed that photos of Hitler don't exactly exemplify features of the so-called master race he touted? But, who's to say? Maybe those old black and white photos just don't do justice to the blond hair and blue eyes that would have defined him as the ultimate role model he would logically have been.

Honestly...I read these things and shake my head... I came from the era when people didn't get kicked out of the ministry...This whole nazi, police state mentality, lets control their lives crap was all Martindale...Wierwille put the hammer down on people in the corps...but never "Joe believer" at home going to twig... We used to have regular twig members who NEVER abundantly shared, only came to twig when they felt like it, never went to any "big meetings", questioned leadership constantly, smoked dope DURING twig fellowship, were in debt up to their arses, and had more personal problems than a toilet cleaner at a bean factory in Tiajuana...The teaching at the time was that we were to "love the unlovable" and that you ALWAYS welcomed people back into the fellowship...in order for somebody to be kicked out, they had to have stolen the ABS money, beat up the twig leaders wife and burned down the limb home... To see how twi "evolved" under the watchful eye of Martinfail...is disturbing to say the least.

GENERAL BEAU LEE PREDICTS EARLY SPRING! Phil says "Six More Weeks of Winter" -- someone's GOT to be a liar ;)-->