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Or perhaps old puke from last night's bad drunk. It's still fun to make fun of memories of them worshiping over the porcelain god and speaking in liquid screams. Shot 'o Drambuie anyone?

What happened to all my prayers? Ya know, before I ever heard of The Way, I had no idea my prayers were second rate. Then I got witnessed to and found out I had it all wrong. See, you can't actually talk to God like you talk to everyone else. You have to have this special language, that they speak in the land of Lo Shanta, or God won't have a clue what you're talking about.And, God can't talk back to you either unless you talk to yourself in this new language lots and lots every day. And you have to make a real effort to expand your vocabulary, too, or God will just keep telling you the same stuff over and over again. Heck, I've even heard people say they prayed to God for answers (without the Lo Shanta stuff) and, presto, someone from TWI appeared to invite them to Twig and sign them up for PLAF. But, how can that be if God can't understand your prayers in the first place? So then my question is this: What happened to all those prayers I said before I heard of TWI?

In my former splinter group (River Road Fellowship as led by V. Barnard) we did the whole, "We are a whole world unto ourselves, isolated in a rural area" thing and it $ucked bigtime. Every perception of truth was tightly controlled by the supposed Apostle. It seemed to me like over time things just got more and more warped. Eventually it was heresy to even question such "apostolic" blunders as him teaching the Lord would return in 1997, 2000, uh er...2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, and even the latest that I've heard on the grapevine 2011. Not to mention the oppressive atmosphere which led to such unfortunate things as teenage girls announcing in fellowship that,"I am married to the Christ in Victor." So while they constantly congradulate themselves among themselves it seems pretty obvious to me that they only grew more dangerous and absurd as time went on. And I really don't think they'd openly come around GSC to state their case either, but they'd say it was because of all they "unbelief" here at GSC I'm sure. But I am certain it is because that even though they imagine themselves to be winners that they would simply be confronted for what they really are. I feel justified in my concerns for Caleb and his fellows.

So without further response from Caleb is this how we are to see this exchange end? One young man takes a small step out of the Mississipi swamp and into a place where all his beliefs he must knew may be challeged. He gives an aggressive post with a direct threat while claiming he will be handling questions and conversations for months to come. And as soon as a teany little bit of heat arrives he steps out, omly to never be heard from again. OMG I would like to believe the young man is o.k., but nobody that knows anything is saying! Is he being shut in with a bunch of faithful for a patented TWI style "healing". Are they mad at us enough to foolishly desire to carry out the feelings of anger in the initial post? Is the young man strong enough to realize that our intentions were for his own good and it may be that his "manoGod" is the real villain? But even though v2p2 may well be carrying out that role I do personally feel compassion for a young man who himself has been indoctrinated into his supposed life's purpose. TOO MANY QUESTIONS, TOO FEW ANSWERS. IMO

Maybe irrelevant.

Its not old news for all of us that gave our time & money for a rot hole place called THE WAY INTERNATIONAL that claimed to be a place of god. It wont be old news until no one is standing for or preaching their crap and that land in ohio is washed away . and only then will it be old news !!

Oh for Pete's sake, Oldies..........quit SPINNING and DANCING around the room. Wierwille BETRAYED his committed followers......most notably, the WOWs and the Corps. As a young and naive WOW, catcup's sister came face-to-face with wierwille's sexual motorcoach lusts and, when she refused, she was kicked off the WOW field. And, its well documented on the forums how wierwille went after the Corps women..!!!!! Can't you see the snare...??? With no accountability for his actions......and being in a well-protected, multi-tiered yes-men hierarchy, wierwille's TRUE COLORS CAME FORTH. What he was.......behind closed doors..... was his TRUE CHARACTER. Those public appearances were just showmanship......no more, no less. Wierwille BETRAYED "his" corps........he sold many of us down the river. He couldn't even keep his commitment to us regarding THE CORPS CHALET. He gave it to his top yes-boy......craig. There is a HUGE chasm between............freely serving God without compulsion as opposed to being manipulated by a con-man who winks with his eyes and speaks with his fingers (Proverbs reference). But hey.........if you, Oldies, want to stay deceived about "the good ole way-daze" have at it. Doesn't look like too many folks here are buying what you are attempting to sell.

One of the things that exasperated me when in TWI was the writing style. Everything was written as though it were an epistle. I got to the point where I couldn't ever finish a letter or an article because of the wordiness and expounding on minutiae. Most things took a translator to get to the point. Was this by design?

Ham, no, I have not. I have only taken the one course, Intro to Business. But thanks for the advise about classes transferring. Someday I may pursue a Bachelor's degree.

Sad. Seems the new boss is the same as the old boss. Must obey authoritay!

As it is now, they hold up signs that read, "Will PREACH for food."

Thanks, Waysider and Shellon. Yes, it does feel good. The final exam (online) only took me 21 minutes to complete. 100 questions and I had a 2-hour window to complete it. I made 194 out of 200 points for the final!!! I called most of my family and my friends that evening to tell them the good news. My online class had a running total for my test scores, so I immediately knew my finals grade and my overall grade. Having owned businesses with my husband for many years helped tremendously with this class, I must admit!!!

Understood. I made my first post to more than one poster and then let it become specific. I apologize. No more advice. Enjoy your stay.

I'm willing to accept that there may have been innocence in the 60s, 70s, 80s, maybe 90s. where is it now? right now? today?

:eusa_clap: HAM you took the words (almost) right out of my mouth! If I can go back to school for needle arts to earn a certification, and you went back to school for teaching credentials, anybody who wants to do anything......can probably do it IF they learn to reason and write reasonably well (at least better than I usually do!)

I think "belonged" (past tense) being the operative word in the cases of tapes and other class materials being sold on eBay. it's amazing how little it can cost to strong-arm someone with a threat, if the person being strong-armed doesn't realize the threat has no legal teeth. that's why I think the legal nitpicking isn't really nitpicking. it's discussing whether twi's claim to something in someone else's possession is valid. who knows who might read this thread in the future after twi demands property they have no right to?

are you asserting that exhaustion of rights occurs only after a SALE (i.e. exchange of money for goods)?

poised to deliver another one of his usual spurt-chill tirades du jour, he opened his mouth, and realized that a crowd of corps and staff had gathered to watch. some had come forward, hoping his holy spittle would fall on them, hoping it would heal them from being deaf, dumb, blind and lame. he pulled back his shoulders and sucked in his paunch, almost preening now that he had an audience. he strutted a little, then turned on me with burning eyes. he stared for a minute, and it seemed like a big fat devil spirit was looking at me saying "nah nah-nah nah nah!"... then he struck his pontificating pose, and opened his mouth to deliver a sermon (with me as the example, of course)...

I think you're both "right", based on my own observations of narcissists. their pathological need for admiration leads them to become what people want. if vpw saw that people wanted what these other spiritual leaders offered, then he HAD TO offer something so people would want him like that. he became those people - less because he admired them than because other people did. I think this extended to the most toxic of the corps people, too. it was less genuine admiration of the bullies higher up the food chain that inspired them, and more admiration of the admiration they received.

Why doesn't someone just call the guy and ask him. He's listed a phone number and it's a real number. Then you could *gasp* stop speculating.

pillfal has something just for you :)

I'll cut to the chase here. Do you or do you not have any business interests that involve sales of Way materials? I'm not interested in a song and dance routine. Just answer the question.

Who really cares how many were crucified, or the magi numbers or when Jesus was crucified if you can`t get straight *Love God and Love your neighbor*? I think we were taught to believe it was a huge hairy deal because it distracted us from our actual responsibilities as Christians...I think that we were taught to be disdainful of churches and other Christians so that we wouldn`t get cloes enough to see how a genuine person who is of the spirit lives. Wierwille knew to distance us from outside influence that could give us perspective and balance. He needed us to believe that his teachings were important enough to stick around through all of the crap..... Old wierwille got right the one thing....if you weren`t familiar with the genuine... one was not easily able to identify the counterfit. Once familiar with the genuine, the counterfit is a pi$$ poor substitute.

I don't want to go back to something I've moved on from.

IT is like a dog chasing it's tail around and around you go. never ending never making progress A complete circle and for what? To argue with some one who only wants to argue. edited to add THe abuses happened. the sexual abuse the child abuse and the mental abuse they are all confirmed by court documents.

oh yeah, and one more thing on "presumption of innocence" under .4... add "otherwise courts would not have discretion to refuse bail."

actually, it is not subject to the process of law until such a time as someone brings suit against the testimony in question. until that time, the testimony can be accepted as factual even though it has not been entered as evidence in a court of law.

ok, so let me get this straight (or see if I can)... "interaction with people is not second hand information it is going to the source." but if that source documents their experience, they are no longer a source, because only "information when documented with evidence is factual" otherwise it's hearsay and cannot be included in the weight of testimony? this isn't a courtroom, and none of the people in leadership positions have a right to expect anyone to take their accusations into a courtroom to prove the truthfulness thereof. in Jesus' time there was both religious and civil legals system, yet it wasn't necessary to establish someone's guilt by taking him to court. Jesus himself said so.

Someone once told me they heard from someone that vpw followers are stupid . . .

Yes, people might well have got hurt some other way. But they didn't have to get hurt by someone masquerading as a Teacher, a minister, a man of God, somebody who would help them and not hurt them, someone from whom they could have reasonable expectations of behavior. Everyone knows that this world has many people who are out to trick them, to dupe them, to harm them in some way or other. There are also many great people (and those people may or may not be Christians) who are open, generous, and would never hurt anyone. In worldly terms, we learn to be wary of others and to consider their motives. Even so, we may get fooled often enough. And hurt, in the process. From reading posts here at the Cafe, it seems there were quite a number of young and vulnerable people, especially women, who thought they had found safety and help - and perhaps they did, initially, at the lower levels of TWI. In the Christian area, we tend to be more trusting. We look to ministers to - well, minister, serve, us - not minister to themselves. We do not expect to get hurt in the Christian area. And if we are, we expect quick repentance and making up. Yes, people might well have got hurt. But probably not by church leaders, not so many people, not over such a long period. Nor would they expect to be abused and hurt by those close to the said offending minister(s) who had trained other minister(s) to hurt and abuse the congregation. Especially the vulnerable congregants who had specifically sought out help. Or had been forced by various means to expose their vulnerabilities. It's a mean thought by someone who hasn't learned compassion. And that's all I'm saying, before I get too riled up.

Mike, Just one more question. . . an honest one. . . . you said "There may be some of valid complaints about other situations in the ministry that were pretty bad, but even those can be exaggerated and after 30 years should be put to rest by now" What makes you say this? Did you ever hear rape likened to "soul murder"? There is a reason for that. How do you put THAT to rest? Given the lock box of guilt and shame which was heaped on the poor helpless spiritual peon hobos. . . . without some intense couseling. . . . serious medication. . .and years of recovery. . . . how do you do that? It is always with someone. . . like any event in our pasts. Is PFAL as truth. . . . taught by the one who inflicted such pain. . . really the way to put that to rest? Close your eyes and listen to the teachings of great truth. . . . just put aside this is the one who murdered your soul? If it is truth. . . it is true for everyone. . . no? Doesn't fit like a hand in a glove for me.

Would that include VP Wierwille? Would that include VP Wierwille?

I like Groucho's view too . . . IF he's willing to hand out roadmaps. . . well?

wow, I would have guessed more.

least harmful and fastest way to remove lice I've found is put in hair conditioner, comb through with lice and nit combs, finger pick out all the eggs that are left, and run all sheets and pillows in the dryer on high. I repeated the combing at bedtime for 2 days just to make sure. lice can't survive 24 hours without blood, so there isn't much to worry about with toys or hats if you just let them sit for a few days. kerosene sounds dangerous. I wouldn't put it on my kids.

Now there is some truth we can all get behind Waysider. Potato You are amazing. And they obviously only went so far with the Suzie Ormand book . IT recommends to work your self up to 8 or 9 months of savings to tide you over. I doubt TWI would be too happy about them reading her book she suggests strongly that all women have their own account and their own credit card that do not have the Hubby's name on them.. for stuff like what happened to Potato. And also how true that sometimes we do not have control over what is going out. Most of us have what we have by a combination of luck and carefulness. Oh thanks I was just pointing it out because you are really such a sweetie and I figured you did not know. Another trick that can be used is to write their email as johnsmith at yahoo.com like that. anything to defeat the evil computer spam bots is my theory.

A man got blamed for something? :blink: Potato - "All were expressly forbidden" - ????? C'mon, don't make me laugh. Or do you mean, forbidden in the sense of whetting the appetite to do exactly the opposite?

just noticed you pointed that out as well, RumRunner.

Ya know, I'm just wondering. If PFAL is our only rule of faith and practice, how does that affect the monetary value of the thousands of SNS tapes that don't deal directly with The "Orange"Book? I hope the ebay crowd doesn't get wind of this. It could plummet the market into a tailspin.

Looks like Weirwille pinched this phrase as well. "The Rule of Faith and Practice" by A. A. Hodge (1823-1886) From Outlines of Theology (Chapter Five) Originally published in 1860, Outlines of Theology is now in the public domain. This chapter may therefore be copied and distributed without restriction. Rest of the article can be viewed here: http://www.the-highway.com/Scripture_Hodge.html A.A. Hodge (1823-1886), Professor in Systematic Theology at Princeton Seminary from 1877 until his death in 1886, urged that the aim of every Christian teacher should be to produce a vitalizing impression — giving students ‘theology, exposition, demonstration, orthodoxy, learning, but giving all this to them warm.’ ‘He taught the knowledge of God,’ said one of his hearers, ‘with the learning of a scholar and the enthusiasm of a loving Christian’. These qualities not only crowded his classrooms, they also led to frequent appeals for the delivery of popular lectures. This article is taken from his Outlines of Theology, first published in 1860 by the Banner of Truth Trust

And that makes it true because-------?

I think the veracity of your claim hinges on the definition of "choose".

this must be the phrase I'm remembering. I remembered he somehow included the listener, I guess as some kind of device to make it seem more real. I just don't remember listening to the tape, though I did listen to quite a few vpw tapes early on.

I hear it in my head when the voices talk through the fillings in my teeth - smirk

and every time we were told to flip a switch, we did it because it wasn't so much more than we'd already suffered or given up or inflicted on others, including spouses, children, friends, and fellow twiggies. eventually you can be convinced that 2+2=5.

What's this about bonuses? Just a guess, Skyrider, or got some hard fact behind that? What would they get a bonus for, anyway? Can't be for winning new people to the word, folks at HQ didn't get the opportunity, preaching to the choir/converted. Maybe because of the number of people they ran off...?

Maybe someone should have read Charles Dickens' "A Christmas Carol" to Wierwille, Martindale, Howard Allen, and the rest of the gang. Proably VPW and LCM would have exorcised the Christmas spirits as devil spirits, and never changed their attitude. (or is it?).

An impression of people who had a shorter involvement with twi that I have known -- they had a life outside of that place, family, church, school, work, other friends -- that acted as buffer against the insanity of twi ("no friends when it comes to the Word" "give only to the household (twi)" etc. so the twi doctrine that counteracted logic never made it through to their heart. -- they had other friends, other church involvements so they didn't consider the lunacy of giving only to twi. -- they had other friends to listen to for logic. They enjoyed what they gleaned out of twi, but they weren't so out of balance they were willing to commit their life to it. They had other things they wanted to do with their lives. The short time involvement pretty much indicated a basic emotional wholeness that wasn't conned by the insanity of twi.

I can say with quite a bit of confidence that if I'd quit before I went WOW I could absolutley look back to beautiful memories and nothing but. once I made that commitment, though, it went steadily downhill. oh, oldiesman, WAY TO GO (har har) on selectively quoting motherof2 out of all meaningful context. (edited to correct faulty recollection)

jack dang has he joined our tribe yet ?