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Or perhaps old puke from last night's bad drunk. It's still fun to make fun of memories of them worshiping over the porcelain god and speaking in liquid screams. Shot 'o Drambuie anyone?

What happened to all my prayers? Ya know, before I ever heard of The Way, I had no idea my prayers were second rate. Then I got witnessed to and found out I had it all wrong. See, you can't actually talk to God like you talk to everyone else. You have to have this special language, that they speak in the land of Lo Shanta, or God won't have a clue what you're talking about.And, God can't talk back to you either unless you talk to yourself in this new language lots and lots every day. And you have to make a real effort to expand your vocabulary, too, or God will just keep telling you the same stuff over and over again. Heck, I've even heard people say they prayed to God for answers (without the Lo Shanta stuff) and, presto, someone from TWI appeared to invite them to Twig and sign them up for PLAF. But, how can that be if God can't understand your prayers in the first place? So then my question is this: What happened to all those prayers I said before I heard of TWI?

In my former splinter group (River Road Fellowship as led by V. Barnard) we did the whole, "We are a whole world unto ourselves, isolated in a rural area" thing and it $ucked bigtime. Every perception of truth was tightly controlled by the supposed Apostle. It seemed to me like over time things just got more and more warped. Eventually it was heresy to even question such "apostolic" blunders as him teaching the Lord would return in 1997, 2000, uh er...2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, and even the latest that I've heard on the grapevine 2011. Not to mention the oppressive atmosphere which led to such unfortunate things as teenage girls announcing in fellowship that,"I am married to the Christ in Victor." So while they constantly congradulate themselves among themselves it seems pretty obvious to me that they only grew more dangerous and absurd as time went on. And I really don't think they'd openly come around GSC to state their case either, but they'd say it was because of all they "unbelief" here at GSC I'm sure. But I am certain it is because that even though they imagine themselves to be winners that they would simply be confronted for what they really are. I feel justified in my concerns for Caleb and his fellows.

So without further response from Caleb is this how we are to see this exchange end? One young man takes a small step out of the Mississipi swamp and into a place where all his beliefs he must knew may be challeged. He gives an aggressive post with a direct threat while claiming he will be handling questions and conversations for months to come. And as soon as a teany little bit of heat arrives he steps out, omly to never be heard from again. OMG I would like to believe the young man is o.k., but nobody that knows anything is saying! Is he being shut in with a bunch of faithful for a patented TWI style "healing". Are they mad at us enough to foolishly desire to carry out the feelings of anger in the initial post? Is the young man strong enough to realize that our intentions were for his own good and it may be that his "manoGod" is the real villain? But even though v2p2 may well be carrying out that role I do personally feel compassion for a young man who himself has been indoctrinated into his supposed life's purpose. TOO MANY QUESTIONS, TOO FEW ANSWERS. IMO

Maybe irrelevant.

Its not old news for all of us that gave our time & money for a rot hole place called THE WAY INTERNATIONAL that claimed to be a place of god. It wont be old news until no one is standing for or preaching their crap and that land in ohio is washed away . and only then will it be old news !!

Oh for Pete's sake, Oldies..........quit SPINNING and DANCING around the room. Wierwille BETRAYED his committed followers......most notably, the WOWs and the Corps. As a young and naive WOW, catcup's sister came face-to-face with wierwille's sexual motorcoach lusts and, when she refused, she was kicked off the WOW field. And, its well documented on the forums how wierwille went after the Corps women..!!!!! Can't you see the snare...??? With no accountability for his actions......and being in a well-protected, multi-tiered yes-men hierarchy, wierwille's TRUE COLORS CAME FORTH. What he was.......behind closed doors..... was his TRUE CHARACTER. Those public appearances were just showmanship......no more, no less. Wierwille BETRAYED "his" corps........he sold many of us down the river. He couldn't even keep his commitment to us regarding THE CORPS CHALET. He gave it to his top yes-boy......craig. There is a HUGE chasm between............freely serving God without compulsion as opposed to being manipulated by a con-man who winks with his eyes and speaks with his fingers (Proverbs reference). But hey.........if you, Oldies, want to stay deceived about "the good ole way-daze" have at it. Doesn't look like too many folks here are buying what you are attempting to sell.

Well, they have to fulfill that old "prophesy" (cough), that the "word" will live as long as there are members of the Wierwille family "standing". (whatever that means.)

I remember that first exam as well and doing well; what a tremendous accomplishment ! Good luck to you ! Please keep us posted, won't you?

i'm sorry ham. i remember when my grandma died and i was told that i had 3 days to grieve and after that i would be "entertaining a devil spirit" so i got whacked hard with the wooden spoon every time i cried for missing my grandma.

ha, if we could become anything, I would be a competent theoretical mathematician, but alas, I don't think brain elasticity stretches that far. no, you shouldn't drive yourself to be something. maybe that's my point: be less afraid of what you don't want to be, and more interested in what interests you until you figure out who you actually are. pay attention to your moods, get to know yourself. I recently had an incident where someone verbally attacked me for expressing a concern, and called me a narcissist, and selfish. talk about cult flashback - and this was someone who is supposed to love me and be supportive. I think they didn't realize that their emotional demand that I think like they do was not only unreasonable, but a horrible emotional trigger. the big difference between now and my response to such things while in twi is that I was able to (even during a crying fit that lasted over an hour, because it really hurt) take stock of my mental processes that led to my concern and realize that the other person simply failed to recognize that I put some thought into it and it wasn't a selfish snap decision. they made the mistake, not me... because instead of assuming why I felt a certain way, they could have asked. big difference between judging and understanding. two years ago I would simply have changed my thinking to match theirs. today I can assess whether what I think is valid on its own terms, or whether the other person is pointing something out that I didn't take into consideration. it's still not EASY, but it's a lot EASIER.

that ain't funny.

you're entitled to your opinion.

LOL no Tweeting you twiters because the wages of tweeting is ..no twiting

BINGO WE HAVE A WINNER!

Duh!

You know? These arguments arguing the legality of posting if our experiences here remind me forcefully of twi doctrine and teachings. They sound and look well meaning on the surface, a legitimate consideration....but in reality are designed to accomplish another goal entirely.....And when one carefully begins to examine the content of either...it could be interpreted or construed as nothing more than a means to an end.

actually it's not that easy to find out on the internet whether people have been in trouble with the law. most criminal and legal cases are not published on the internet. usually you have to go to wherever records are stored, county by county, and look through the archives. if you can't do it, you have to hire a researcher. yep.

Critical thinking can take place without putting in stipulations such as "presumption of innocence," particularly when it is a moot point and serves no other purpose other than to be a distraction.

Wordwolf, So glad that is what you took away rom my heart felt and honest post. Because I reject this doctrine and do not have any interest in reading the theology. . . I am hiding and possibly afraid I will be persuaded? I was persuaded for over ten years. It holds no value to me. If it does to you. . . fine. . . I am not the judge. I say we leave it up to the Lord to judge the intents of the heart. A few posts on an ex-cult site, might not be the best indicator. I won't judge you. . . you helped me with that. . . I would ask the same of you. If I said anything that offended you. . . I am sorry. I just don't accept unitarian theology. I never will. If that means to you I am hiding. . . nothing I can do about that.

Well, *return to pfal* connotes something very distasteful to me....scriptures being made to say anything a person damned well pleases. PFAL seems to be like the gateway *drug* of twi involvement....The seemingly harmless lead into the abusive teachings ... the justification for mistreatment and evil actions. It was the first step down a very dark path. PFAL was the first step leading away from God. I`d not want to ever go back to that dark and lonely period.

No a fire drill is no big deal and can be required by law. . . the whole hands dodge em aspect was what got me. . . making us stand under the lights. . . and then the spewing the next day about how inept and unspiritual we all were. It bordered on the inane. Didn't take us long to exit. . . we all used the right way to go out. . . it was such a joke.

just the two bolded points above, WD: do you know that often people who've been in highly abusive situations have a hard time being "neutral", as you put it? the more deeply they've been hurt, the less neutral they are especially when they are in the process of coming to grips with having been abused. I know first-hand about how people treat you... like a liar, like you're insane, when nothing could be further from the truth. the other is, I'm sure there are a LOT of women that vpw didn't try to take advantage of, for whatever reason. molesters and rapists choose their victims based on certain criteria. it'd be nice to know when she worked for him, how often, did she see any of the women at the time they were with vpw, or did she work for him under other circumstances? see, you can't just assume that since your wife didn't get molested, that no one else did. lots of people survive being murdered by serial killers because they just aren't the right victim.

Potato, thankyou for those comments about building our own foundations with our experiences.....Strangely enough Potato, Dove and I`s paths did bring us into contact with some of the same people. Dove, with all compassion, I want to say....that I know how nice it was to be with John (since you brought him up) I was in that state too> I loved the Wiengarners that came after as well...I loved the work days at emporia, the work days at the limb....I loved serving as corpes spouse..opening our home to light bearers and visiting dignitaries...fellowshipping with the incredible believers....and HAD had that been my only experience in twi....I would probably be shoulder to shoulder with you right now in your defense. However, there were other states, other programs, other leaders where cruelty and mistreatment occurred. I experienced some pretty awful things. I heard some very ungodly teachings, saw some things that weren`t right. I saw a lot of the same side of twi that you did, I just saw other stuff that wasn`t as idealistic. I don`t want to argue with you, I understand where you are coming from. I just don`t think that we can completely understand what the rest of these guys endured in residence, not having been there.

WD, I'd love to know if you ever lived on grounds at a root locale. that would give some basis for the authority you'd like us to think you have. yeah whatever. rascal has shared a lot about her experiences, but you won't even answer a direct question about where you gathered all this wisdom you want everyone to think you have. you spend your time attacking, instead of building your own foundation for gaining respect. your experience wasn't the same, couldn't have been, unless you both spent the same amount of time with the same people in the same locations for the same period of time, even then it'd be different depending on who was in the doghouse for not being spiritual enough. enough with the high horse parade, why don't you just back up your own opinions based on your own experience instead of working so hard to tear other people down? you may have left twi, but it doesn't seem to have left you.

Why is it this reminds me of a traffic round about? First, you said if there was confirmation of proven guilt, you would shout from the roof tops. Then, when an example was given, you said the context was about VPW, not just any old guilt. Now, you're saying it has nothing to do with guilt or innocence, even though that seems to be the title of the thread. It looks to me like you are having trouble figuring out how to navigate the round about.

ROFLM . . . OFF!! Can't argue with that logic. Well, let me rephrase that. You can't successfully argue with that logic. . . can try and probably will try. . . are different matters all together.

Accusations demand no documentation. Evidence is not even required (although it is recommended) to charge someone of a crime. Oftentimes "reasonable suspicion" is sufficient. However, if you want to get a conviction, one either must present compelling evidence, or at least present what evidence has been gathered as compelling enough to sway a jury. As stated before, legal guilt is not to be confused with factual guilt. And as far as "crimes" are concerned, while plagiarism and adultery are bad, they are not prosecuted as "crimes." The women who were drugged to have sex would have a case for rape, as would underage girls. Ministers and others in authority are held to a standard of behavior that assumes the positional authority of the authority figure does not allow for consensual relationships. That is why it is a bad idea for ministers to have sex with members of the congregation, therapists to have sex with clients, lawyers with clients, police with people they stop for traffic violations, teachers with students, prison guards with inmates. In those "relationships" there is a level of implied coercion. Do you not get that? Oh, and by the way, many people have been accused of improper relationships and found themselves out of a job with no charges ever filed or without ever facing prosecution.

I've been thinking of this one, quite a bit, and I want to ask you WD, exactly WHO has committed libel? are you saying excathedra has? or Kristin Skedgell? or any of the other women who've published their accounts of being molested by vpw? or the men who've corroborated their testimony? are they committing libel?

Consider this WD: Had TWI allowed reasonable discourse and a reasonable means to deal with issues - there would be no GSC. As such, the few pro-TWI message boards that do exist do NOT allow anyone to speak badly about TWI. While I'm reasonably sure there are more than a few here who wish you'd put a sock in it, you have been largely unmolested and have suffered very little in the way of personal attacks on this board. I find it fascinating that you continue to try to create compelling arguments about things that are out of the realm of possibility about a guy who most here think is a scum bag. Very few here are going to have an epiphany about the guy because they already have. I guess that makes you the eternal optimist.

*...and relive day after day any bad experiences in the way....* Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeey wait a minute now....is that an actual ADMISSION from Dove that there WERE bad experiences to be endured by participants *in the way* to be relived?????? Golly....you mean that we aren`t all liars and exaggerators, possibly deserving of the treatment we recieved??? I think that you may have made a breakthrough today friend ;)

Is this a court of law? NO Is the government looking to convict someone because of what is said here? NO Is anyone entitled to their opinion? YES Are the things I'VE witnessed and I'VE heard first hand "testimony"? YES Now- is there really a reason to go further? I think not... <_<

BUT the phrase "presumption of innocence" ONLY applies to the judiciary process that assumes that most people are not criminals. As others have pointed out, the presumption of innocence is a legal statement, not a factual statement. A person can be legally innocent of a crime, yet be factually guilty. A person can also be legally guilty of a crime, yet be factually innocent. The statement "innocent until proven guilty" is not a standard that must be adhered to outside of its intended purpose - which is to give all accused the right to a fair trial. VPW is dead and can't defend himself against the accusations of sexual misconduct, which did not come to light until his death. However, the other allegations, such as his diploma mill doctorate and the plagiarism were never refuted by him - at least not legally. Furthermore, neither TWI nor his heirs have gone after anyone who has claimed sexual abuse at the hands of VPW. The reason why that has not happened (IMO) is because TWI and heirs would then have the burden of proof against the accusers. They weren't able to prove LCM's innocence against his accusers and ended up settling. Do you think TWI would fare any better if they were to take the offensive against posters here regarding VPW's behavior? Let me remind you that TWI has a low threshold of tolerance regarding being seen in an unseemly way (think Rocky Horror - AOTS and Talk Soup), so this ignoring the posts here IMO has more to do with no ground rather than taking any high road. I think that lack of action on the part of TWI and VPW's heirs should speak volumes to you or any of his apologists about where TWI and his heirs think they stand with regards to defending VPW's honor and integrity as the former president of TWI.

I wanted to misrepresent things?...How so? If something is a fact it's a fact...whether it's a crime or whether it's a dog crapping on the lawn (which, by the way...is a crime in certain areas)...if you witness it firsthand, it's a fact...in a court of law...no...it's a fact to the person who witnessed it. Nobody is claiming that Wierwille was convicted of a crime...they are simply stating that they witnessed something and that makes it a fact to them...I'm sure you understand that...right? For example...If you personally witnessed ANYTHING (crime or otherwise)...it would be a fact to you...am I wrong?

Why not just say you worshiped the sorry S.O.B. I don't think anyone would press you to "prove" it.

Whitedove, You said the following in response to several posts. . . "Nice try but No, we have laws and truth to uphold and we are to obey those laws also a biblical principle." We are not held to "Biblical" principles on this forum or one could argue in this country. We obey laws because the government has the power to incarcerate! Not everyone is Christian. You and I would not even AGREE on what biblical principle IS. That is why we discuss such issues in the doctrinal forum. We follow the rules of the forum. . . articulated and enforced. Presumption of innocence is used in CRIMINAL LAW, not internet forums, and there is no actual statute to require any of US EX-TWIERS to adhere to it on the internet. . . you continue on as if there actually is. Show me the statute.. . cite it. Please don't confuse crimminal law with civil statutes either. . . the burden of proof differs. . . .it would be hard to prove libel here and it is doubtful crimminal libel charges would ever even be considered. I have already explained that burden in relation to public figures. We are not required to bring crimminal charges before we discuss these issues of abuse and suffering at the hands of men we once trusted. No matter how hard you want it to be so. BTW. . . The presumption of innocence is a principle that requires the government to prove the guilt of a criminal defendant and relieves the defendant of any burden to prove his or her innocence. Not that they are innocent until proven guilty, but they don't have to prove their innocence, the government has to prove their guilt and there is due process of law! We are not the government here. . . just the victims of a giant UGLY scam. "The presumption of innocence, is an ancient tenet of criminal law, is actually a misnomer. According to the U.S. Supreme Court, the presumption of the innocence of a criminal defendant is best described as an assumption of innocence that is indulged in the absence of contrary evidence (Taylor v. Kentucky, 436 U.S. 478, 98 S. Ct. 1930, 56 L. Ed. 2d 468 [1978]). It is not considered evidence of the defendant's innocence, and it does not require that a mandatory inference favorable to the defendant be drawn from any facts in evidence. The presumption of innocence principle supports the practice of releasing criminal defendants from jail prior to trial. However, the government may detain some criminal defendants without bail through the end of trial. The Eighth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution states that excessive bail shall not be required, but it is widely accepted that governments have the right to detain through trial a defendant of a serious crime who is a flight risk or poses a danger to the public. In such cases the presumption of innocence is largely theoretical. Aside from the related requirement of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, the presumption of innocence is largely symbolic. The reality is that no defendant would face trial unless somebody — the crime victim, the prosecutor, a police officer — believed that the defendant was guilty of a crime. After the government has presented enough evidence to constitute probable cause to believe that the defendant has committed a crime, the accused need not be treated as if he or she was innocent of a crime, and the defendant may be jailed with the approval of the court." You can't just ignore what the law actually means in favor of what you want it to mean. . . . just makes it your interpretation. You can think whatever you like about the presumption of innocence. Where it applies. . . what it is. You can get it all mixed up in your head and have it come out in the words you post. That is fine. . . go for it. But, when you try to impose this private standard on others. . . someone will call you on it. Especially here. Ex-cult members tend to spot this tactic a mile away. I wonder why?

actually, WD, I think she was just pointing out your double standard.

this is not about anyone here.

"If this place becomes the 'First Church of the Wierwillites . . . I hope this place falls to the ground'" something like that so whens this prophecy going to fulfill itself?

There is or was a person called Bagpipes who is/was a member here at the cafe. Was this the same person?

This one thing I'm certain of. The stories of the revelations, phenomenon, and miracles served to bring people into TWI that really were looking for God to be real for them. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm fairly darn certain that Wierwille used these stories to weed out people who were not likely to fall for his twisted and dangerous doctrines. If anyone appeared to actually seriously consider whether or not these things were true I'm fairly certain that they would be given the bum's rush out the door as far as being anything other than being a simple bystander in TWI history. The fact that these stories were put on par with believing the bible in TWI doctrine and practice really tees me off. Like many other religious groups, proving things only applied to major problems outside of the fold. (edited for clarity)

I remember it too---just don't remember the exact session or paragraph or date or Way Mag issue or SNS # or whatever. That's not the point anyway. The point is he said it------- and several of us remember it.

I'm very convinced it was not a hallucination. interesting thing about people with narcissistic or borderline personality disorder is that they're so easily able to rewrite history for themselves and everyone else that he may actually have believed it happened even though he may have made it up decades later. in other words, the memory didn't exist until he needed it to, and once he used it and it worked, it became so firmly entrenched in his mind that he could have passed a lie detector test because to him it actually happened, even if he also had a separate and distinct memory that it did not. as long as the true memory was repressed, snow on the gas pumps miraculously happened, but only as a memory. not a hallucination.

OMG! Groucho, did you have to say that? Now I will have nightmares of Wierwille speaking. Something along the lines of Twilight Zone/Night Gallery and Rod Serling is narrating. :blink: <_<

I really resent you guys taking my name in vain!

Stinkin' thinkin' I presume...

-----------plus the cost of the money order, at a time when the average pay was something like $1.50/hour. But the actual amount is irrelevant. The money collected was supposed to be used to do God's work. Why is it that this part of the process didn't fit that definition?

It's interesting that there are twi innies who are checking out this book...it seems that their cult has become so small that they are probably enthralled that anyone even mentions them at all...they rally together to criticize the book only because there's no one else talking about them anymore... ...I can hear it now..."it's an attack of the adversary! Get the Yak twig together!"...

OM, I don't get it? What is your interest here on GS? I just don't get it... It seems you want to sit back and remember the good ole'daze in TWI and/or let everyone here know that they've got it wrong and you've seen the light on the whole picture. DUH... if you haven't figured it out by now... you're at the wrong place for that.... I think the place your looking for is : www.thewayinternational.com

cop-out is really a loaded term. I remember well all that term represented when used for anyone who'd ever left, no matter if they faded away or left during an explosion. if they could be made an example of to discourage the rest of us from the risk of speaking up, the cop-outs and their pathetic, devilish, destitute lives surely served the purpose of keeping us in check. the longer you considered the words of "the teacher" regarding these copped out people, the harder it was to consider leaving, or questioning, or speaking up.