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Or perhaps old puke from last night's bad drunk. It's still fun to make fun of memories of them worshiping over the porcelain god and speaking in liquid screams. Shot 'o Drambuie anyone?

What happened to all my prayers? Ya know, before I ever heard of The Way, I had no idea my prayers were second rate. Then I got witnessed to and found out I had it all wrong. See, you can't actually talk to God like you talk to everyone else. You have to have this special language, that they speak in the land of Lo Shanta, or God won't have a clue what you're talking about.And, God can't talk back to you either unless you talk to yourself in this new language lots and lots every day. And you have to make a real effort to expand your vocabulary, too, or God will just keep telling you the same stuff over and over again. Heck, I've even heard people say they prayed to God for answers (without the Lo Shanta stuff) and, presto, someone from TWI appeared to invite them to Twig and sign them up for PLAF. But, how can that be if God can't understand your prayers in the first place? So then my question is this: What happened to all those prayers I said before I heard of TWI?

In my former splinter group (River Road Fellowship as led by V. Barnard) we did the whole, "We are a whole world unto ourselves, isolated in a rural area" thing and it $ucked bigtime. Every perception of truth was tightly controlled by the supposed Apostle. It seemed to me like over time things just got more and more warped. Eventually it was heresy to even question such "apostolic" blunders as him teaching the Lord would return in 1997, 2000, uh er...2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, and even the latest that I've heard on the grapevine 2011. Not to mention the oppressive atmosphere which led to such unfortunate things as teenage girls announcing in fellowship that,"I am married to the Christ in Victor." So while they constantly congradulate themselves among themselves it seems pretty obvious to me that they only grew more dangerous and absurd as time went on. And I really don't think they'd openly come around GSC to state their case either, but they'd say it was because of all they "unbelief" here at GSC I'm sure. But I am certain it is because that even though they imagine themselves to be winners that they would simply be confronted for what they really are. I feel justified in my concerns for Caleb and his fellows.

So without further response from Caleb is this how we are to see this exchange end? One young man takes a small step out of the Mississipi swamp and into a place where all his beliefs he must knew may be challeged. He gives an aggressive post with a direct threat while claiming he will be handling questions and conversations for months to come. And as soon as a teany little bit of heat arrives he steps out, omly to never be heard from again. OMG I would like to believe the young man is o.k., but nobody that knows anything is saying! Is he being shut in with a bunch of faithful for a patented TWI style "healing". Are they mad at us enough to foolishly desire to carry out the feelings of anger in the initial post? Is the young man strong enough to realize that our intentions were for his own good and it may be that his "manoGod" is the real villain? But even though v2p2 may well be carrying out that role I do personally feel compassion for a young man who himself has been indoctrinated into his supposed life's purpose. TOO MANY QUESTIONS, TOO FEW ANSWERS. IMO

Maybe irrelevant.

Its not old news for all of us that gave our time & money for a rot hole place called THE WAY INTERNATIONAL that claimed to be a place of god. It wont be old news until no one is standing for or preaching their crap and that land in ohio is washed away . and only then will it be old news !!

Oh for Pete's sake, Oldies..........quit SPINNING and DANCING around the room. Wierwille BETRAYED his committed followers......most notably, the WOWs and the Corps. As a young and naive WOW, catcup's sister came face-to-face with wierwille's sexual motorcoach lusts and, when she refused, she was kicked off the WOW field. And, its well documented on the forums how wierwille went after the Corps women..!!!!! Can't you see the snare...??? With no accountability for his actions......and being in a well-protected, multi-tiered yes-men hierarchy, wierwille's TRUE COLORS CAME FORTH. What he was.......behind closed doors..... was his TRUE CHARACTER. Those public appearances were just showmanship......no more, no less. Wierwille BETRAYED "his" corps........he sold many of us down the river. He couldn't even keep his commitment to us regarding THE CORPS CHALET. He gave it to his top yes-boy......craig. There is a HUGE chasm between............freely serving God without compulsion as opposed to being manipulated by a con-man who winks with his eyes and speaks with his fingers (Proverbs reference). But hey.........if you, Oldies, want to stay deceived about "the good ole way-daze" have at it. Doesn't look like too many folks here are buying what you are attempting to sell.

It happened again yesterday. I came across another person who took the pfal class......and stayed with twi for almost three years. Yep, back in the early 80s, she took pfal and even attended the roa one year. Her comments were....."It was a good experience and I learned alot." Yet.......some things came up in her life and she left twi. BUT.......holds some good memories. This story seems to repeat itself over and over and over again. The local twig had some fun-loving, caring people who really loved God. Young-hearted and youthful energy was abounding. The music was God-inspiring and hearts were affixed on God's power to heal and deliver. It seems obvious that the longer one stayed, the INDOCTRINATION PROCESS overran the feel-good comaraderie of the local fellowships. The longer one stayed..........the more one was required to DO. The manipulation and micro-management of twi followers was exponentially increased when one became an "advanced class" grad. Yet, the corps program contained some of the ultimate experiences of an isolation cult training wherein the controlling, intimidating scream-fest leaders followed wierwille's lead. Yeah...........I stayed too long. And therefore, I have lots of BAD Memories.

Can't you just feel the love about "believing?" We all remember those lines - "Do you know what killed that boy? It was the fear in the heart and the life of that mother." (or close enough) OK so now if you do NOT believe then you are by proxy committing murder - the child died because the mother did not have believing?!?!?!?! Now you don't want bad things happening to your children, family etc - so BELIEVE - TAKE MY CLASS - BELIEVE MY CLASS - otherwise any ailment that befalls your child is YOUR fault. And you can PROVE your believing - by sending in your ABS. Cyclops (Wierwille the scumbag) convicted that woman of murder in his class because she did not WILL to control the UNIVERSE around her. I bet it would have been a gas to see Cyclops on acid.

As it is now, they hold up signs that read, "Will PREACH for food."

Thanks, Waysider and Shellon. Yes, it does feel good. The final exam (online) only took me 21 minutes to complete. 100 questions and I had a 2-hour window to complete it. I made 194 out of 200 points for the final!!! I called most of my family and my friends that evening to tell them the good news. My online class had a running total for my test scores, so I immediately knew my finals grade and my overall grade. Having owned businesses with my husband for many years helped tremendously with this class, I must admit!!!

WORSE. they said mashed.

(((takes a bow))) I wish I could post the ones I know about in detail, I truly do, because they're amazing. I just don't want the attention and I don't want it on my friends. I'm more concerned about the impact on them. someday I'll write my memoirs, though :)

I guess it was first a victatorship, then a licktatorship (as in the brown-nosing type), then it turned into a fascist twictatorship, now what is it with Rosie in charge? and notice how I spelled it TATOR, rummy and p-bear. different word, different root. has nothing to do with me.

I am trying to understand what you are saying. It is rather cryptic to my ears, but maybe it is just me. Yes, TWI was and is made up of people. My point exactly. The people that post here are former members of TWI. I would guess that out of all the posters registered here. . . the majority are good people. Even some of the grumpy ones have a heart of gold. :) I imagine that there is at least one redeemable quality present in them today that was present during their time in TWI. Kindness, honesty, generosity, caring. . . selflessness. . . something?? I saw all those qualities exhibited at one time or another. People are flawed, and people get tricked. . . we did lose some of ourselves in TWI. . . no doubt. . . but, not all tossed humanity out the window. Some, yes. . . not all. So, if we accept the premise that people are flawed, and we accept the reality that we were tricked. . . together. . . theoretically, we can have some room in our hearts and fondness for the good people we lived with, worked with, and loved. Not perfect people. . . but people with at least "some" good qualities. Not everyone raped and pillaged. And Lord knows I wasn't in it for the money. . . I owned and rode in enough junkers to realize that not many WERE in it for the money. If you talk to me about the doctrine or sheep being led astray. . . you will get a whole different response. But, the people. . . . as flawed and broken as some were. . . were not all bad. Remember, we actually ARE those people. I really hope you understand that does not diminish the bad. I have more than my share of horror stories. . . but this thread posed the question of "good times". If I had my life to live over again. . . this converation would be moot. I would run. . . not walk the other way. . . but I don't . . . so. . . . it still is what it is. There are just too many human beings I can't regret.

there it is agian :blink:

I think lcm is a greasespot. he's a hard-hearted h8er who used people and threw them away. I don't think God would spit in his direction. he's out of zion, man. he's a waste of air. lcm is (as Dewey Finn would say) a funny little footnote on God's epic @$$.

no, ain't doing a research paper maybe it's a moral dilemma, maybe not, i dunno maybe "who cares" is the best answer

Saw the movie, and was so impressed. Seeing the background of the times. Then someone sent me this youtube of Amazing Grace, and it has even more depth and dimension to me of what is in the Lord's heart for this song.

:eusa_clap: HAM you took the words (almost) right out of my mouth! If I can go back to school for needle arts to earn a certification, and you went back to school for teaching credentials, anybody who wants to do anything......can probably do it IF they learn to reason and write reasonably well (at least better than I usually do!)

oh Twinky, I almost forgot! this would be a case where presumption of innocence would actually apply! we shouldn't assume anyone who has a set of tapes has stolen them, since apparently people have legitimate ownership of some copies, given as gifts or for running classes with no terms for their return. the burden of proof would definitely be on twi here that they still own any copy floating around. edited to add: IF THIS WERE A COURT OF LAW. personally, I think twi can suck it.

that appears to be the real problem. if it wasn't stolen, then whoever has it can do what they want with it. if it was stolen, then twi must have made a report of the theft, or they decided to just let it go. but, it would look pretty stupid to file a report that they gave some tapes to someone and the someone didn't give them back. ok, provide proof that the tapes don't belong to the person presently in possession. can't do it? too bad. I heard all about the "stolen" materials for years. but the bottom line is, if materials were provided to employees so they could do their jobs, then you've got to prove you still have a right to the property. you gonna demand they give back every pen, notebook, whatever that you provided? that's not going to fly. you give them a manual or a book to help them do their job then you'd better make them sign an agreement to give it back. I'm sure plenty of people didn't feel obligated to give stuff back on a verbal agreement when twi didn't keep their promises. so what? I don't see that as being too big a deal. I own syllabi. we were told they were "for our eyes only" and lcm made a big deal out of people selling them, saying it was stolen property. whatever. from where I sit, all twi materials in my possession belong to me and I'll do what I want with them. I didn't sneak onto grounds and shoplift copies. they were handed to me. they're mine.

You say no one here was present during the commission of a crime. That assumption is in error. Exposing children to pornography is a crime in Ohio. People have testified that they were personally present when Wierwille did so. Providing alcohol to minors is a crime in Ohio. Same deal. Transporting people across state lines for the purpose of debauchery is a federal crime. People have given first hand testimony. It is against the law to drug a person and then have sex with them. People have given first hand testimony. These are crimes. People here were personally present. All this is moot anyway because Wierwille is dead. The people who you are insinuating to be liars are alive. You are the accuser, not them. As such, it's up to you to prove they are lying. Oh, yes, I know you never directly called them liars. Irrelevant. That's your implication. Now do a little tap dance and sing a song about how you are really a noble freedom fighter protecting the world from injustices. Riiiight. Here's what I would like to know. Are you engaged in any sort of business activity that might experience a revenue decrease (or increase) if Wierwille's true nature was exposed? Oh, wait. That would call for some speculative thinking on your part. Are you engaged in any sort of business that receives revenue from the sale of Way materials?

Just to put this in perspective (not that I disagree with what happened in TWI), it is common to think of musicians as ego-centric by Christian organizations. There are people who make a living at driving the aspect of "performance" out of musicians and singers. The idea is that performance takes the worship aspect out of music and puts too much emphasis on the musician/singer. In TWI world, anything beyond singing songs would register as performance.

thank you, WG. I didn't remember that as being part of PFAL, but it certainly explains some things. it was a deeply engrained part of twi culture. I wonder how Bathsheba, as Uriah's wife, reacted. no one said no to the king, so her cooperation was most certainly coerced because of his position of power, unless he took the time to seduce her. was she afraid? did she cry afterward? was what David did essentially RAPE? I think it probably was. Bathsheba didn't have a choice. looking at Nathan's confrontation, it would certainly seem that god equated David's rape of Bathsheba to destroying something precious. in the parable, the beloved lamb was sacrificed for a feast. that implies greed and lust and a disregard for others. nice qualities in a king! since the MOG was the modern-day spiritual equivalent of David, it must have been easy to overlook the effect on the women who were used if David's only crime was murder. from what Nathan said, though, God saw it differently.

Who really cares how many were crucified, or the magi numbers or when Jesus was crucified if you can`t get straight *Love God and Love your neighbor*? I think we were taught to believe it was a huge hairy deal because it distracted us from our actual responsibilities as Christians...I think that we were taught to be disdainful of churches and other Christians so that we wouldn`t get cloes enough to see how a genuine person who is of the spirit lives. Wierwille knew to distance us from outside influence that could give us perspective and balance. He needed us to believe that his teachings were important enough to stick around through all of the crap..... Old wierwille got right the one thing....if you weren`t familiar with the genuine... one was not easily able to identify the counterfit. Once familiar with the genuine, the counterfit is a pi$$ poor substitute.

well thanks for informing me. how could I presume to know what you experienced, when you've refused to answer any questions? now I know you spent time at Emporia. how long were you in, anyway? I do read, WD. I've been reading for some time now and what I'm reading is you telling rascal she doesn't know anything compared to you. but you never have, in all my reading, actually revealed what you DO know, although you've been asked numerous times. if you want to be an authority, then you've got to give your creds. getting respect ain't gonna happen by ripping into a woman and telling her she's nothing compared to you because she didn't sleep at Emporia for a year.

IT is like a dog chasing it's tail around and around you go. never ending never making progress A complete circle and for what? To argue with some one who only wants to argue. edited to add THe abuses happened. the sexual abuse the child abuse and the mental abuse they are all confirmed by court documents.

Someone once told me they heard from someone that vpw followers are stupid . . .

Yes, people might well have got hurt some other way. But they didn't have to get hurt by someone masquerading as a Teacher, a minister, a man of God, somebody who would help them and not hurt them, someone from whom they could have reasonable expectations of behavior. Everyone knows that this world has many people who are out to trick them, to dupe them, to harm them in some way or other. There are also many great people (and those people may or may not be Christians) who are open, generous, and would never hurt anyone. In worldly terms, we learn to be wary of others and to consider their motives. Even so, we may get fooled often enough. And hurt, in the process. From reading posts here at the Cafe, it seems there were quite a number of young and vulnerable people, especially women, who thought they had found safety and help - and perhaps they did, initially, at the lower levels of TWI. In the Christian area, we tend to be more trusting. We look to ministers to - well, minister, serve, us - not minister to themselves. We do not expect to get hurt in the Christian area. And if we are, we expect quick repentance and making up. Yes, people might well have got hurt. But probably not by church leaders, not so many people, not over such a long period. Nor would they expect to be abused and hurt by those close to the said offending minister(s) who had trained other minister(s) to hurt and abuse the congregation. Especially the vulnerable congregants who had specifically sought out help. Or had been forced by various means to expose their vulnerabilities. It's a mean thought by someone who hasn't learned compassion. And that's all I'm saying, before I get too riled up.

"vpw made it live for me through pfal. because it lives for me, pfal must be true. because pfal is true, it must be god-breathed." very, very subjective judgment. that would be nice. I'm not going to read pfal again. oh, and thanks to those of you who've tried to bring that thread back wherever it wandered off to.

Maybe you could just post a synopsis.

For starters, I am not the one here who has claimed that PFAL is the only rule of faith and practice. Since it was you who made that claim, the burden is on you to prove it. Using your methodology, feel free to demonstrate why Wierwille was not in error when he stated on page 77 of Volume III, Studies In Abundant Living: "When Israel disobeyed and married Cain's progeny, they brought disaster to themselves." As Ham has pointed out,Cain's progeny was wiped out in the flood. Wierwille also stated, "And Ahab, Jeroboam's' son..." Again, as Ham has pointed out, Ahab was the son of Omri, not Jeroboam. I really doubt there are many places in the entire PFAL series that these names are even mentioned. There is no trick. Simply use your methodology to demonstrate why this is not erroneous. If it is erroneous, it certainly can't be considered a reliable source as our only rule of faith and practice.

wow, I would have guessed more.

There seems to have been some debate above about whether the pictures shown in CFS were porn (implication- "that's bad") or nothing more than you'd see on statues in the Capitol or broadcast TV (implication- "that's OK"). What was in the pictures? If they showed erections, women's genitals, couples having oral sex or intercourse, then apparently this is equivalent to X rated movies today (I don't know exactly, since I've never seen an X rated movie and avoid R unless its a movei of subtsance and I can fast forward through R portions which often are less than 2-3 minutes). Frontal nudity would gain an R rating today - not for people under 17. In either case, such pictures in theaters are prohibbited to those under 17. Why would a "Christian" class have looser standards than secular society? In the case of any material that would garner an X rating in theaters- there is certainly no place for that in a Christian class either. So- what was the content of the photos and were they R or X ?

just noticed you pointed that out as well, RumRunner.

this must be the phrase I'm remembering. I remembered he somehow included the listener, I guess as some kind of device to make it seem more real. I just don't remember listening to the tape, though I did listen to quite a few vpw tapes early on.

...and there you have it. I contend that the snow on the gaspumps story was the "hook" in pfal...If you bought THAT story, everything else was swallowed hook, line and sinker...Wierwille could have taught us that Alfred E Newman was one of the 12 disciples and we would have bought it. I mean...God talked to this guy!!! That was the message he delivered and we sucked it up like Cooter Brown and a jug of moonshine...off to see the wizard, the terrible lizard of Oz, New Knoxville... Yes...Wierwille's "snow stories" were definitely the hook in his con.

I remember it being Household Holidays in about the mid 1970s. We were well schooled in its pagan origins. I think I must have been gone already (at least mentally) when it was called Ho-Ho. In my opinion, it was kind of a rationalization that made it "o.k." for folks who were on assignments away from home to return and celebrate with their families without actually celebrating the so called pagan nature of it. So it was "household" in a family context rather than the "One True Household" sense. Incidentally, the sowers site has photos of them celebrating "Christmas" for whatever that's worth.

Every person is responsible for their own actions...I believe that there's a mental "line of demarcation" where people decide whether to "follow orders" or take the independant action of thinking and acting on their own accord. It took me 13 years to decide on my own that twi was bogus and it was time to move on. It took that long for me to gather the sufficient information to come to that decision. People will choose what they believe is the right thing...they may be right or they may be wrong...but the point is to DECIDE FOR YOURSELF. Too many people delegate that decision to others..."I will do what the mog tells me to do" syndrome...and that was what Wierwille banked on to achieve his "kingdom". He was a conman and we were the conned. Stayed too long?...if you were there for 5 minutes, it was 5 minutes too long.

I wish you could see it in the original...

Good enough reason in my book.. NIce music and slide show Miss Professor of Hineyology

You are twisted and have too much time on your hands!!! But that was a great slide show. The statue over the harbor I think comes from Rio in Brazil. Well done and thank you!

Twi spends alot of time and energy to "dress up" its image..............but spends very little money doing so. Twi spends countless hours practicing songs and dance steps..........but spends none on wardrobe. Twi spends time mandating corps doctrine and discipline.................but spends meagerly at the limb level. Once on the hook, the twi follower is opening his wallet before each class, after each class, during branch meetings, limb functions, advanced class special fees, and guest speaker gifts, and weekly abs, and twig refreshments and supplies, and gasoline for witnessing nights, sts tapes, and mags, and books, etc. etc. At the top.......twi's bod sit smugly in their conference chairs dictating policy. While enjoying the constant adulation, they walk the halls of the OSC in comfort and ease. No stress. No strain. And, at the end of the fiscal year, Rosalie rewards these yes-men with bonuses. On the field.........the lowly "believer" is jumping hoops night and day, neglecting life and livelihood, trying to stand approved of twi leadership policies. Preying on the small guy, twi is relentless. Like any scam, it works best when one is unsuspecting that he is being scammed. "It's the Word, the Word....and nothing but the Word" is a cliche that keeps guilt-ridden followers in a constant state of striving for the unattainable. 55 million and counting............the twi bean-counters are giddy with excitement.

You're right potato...but not all of them were "found out"... ...it was always about the money with the top twi people.

Maybe someone should have read Charles Dickens' "A Christmas Carol" to Wierwille, Martindale, Howard Allen, and the rest of the gang. Proably VPW and LCM would have exorcised the Christmas spirits as devil spirits, and never changed their attitude. (or is it?).

Man, if that don't just hit the nail smack dab on the proverbial head!! They were kind enough to inform us that if we were ever less than completely honest and open to "leadership" inquiries, we would somehow suffer spiritual consequences because it was out of fellowship to disobey a leader. Same thing as disobeying God, really. Heck, they could have gotten the order they fired at you by direct revelation from God Almighty! Doesn't get much heavier than that, now does it? Good gravy! Might even wind up like old Ananais and Saphira. They lied to God and woke up dead the next morning. No siree, even a nickel out of that horn could cost you plenty. And they will know. They'll see it in your failure to manifest positives. Yep, they'll just know.

OH YEAH! I'd forgotten about that little sh!t. what do you know.

I was involved with twi for only six years (for a more detailed account of my story, see my post in the "My Story" forum here), from shortly after VPW's death in 1985 to 1991, although most of the last four years I was on active duty in the military with very limited contact with other followers. Mostly I just listened to their tapes and read their publications during my active duty military years. In the years prior to my enlistment, there were good and bad memories, but in hindsight, I'd have to say whether the memories were good or bad, they had little to do with the organization, and a lot to do with the people I was associating with at the time. My fondest memory of my years in twi had nothing to do with the organization, other than I was a WOW at the time it occurred. Shortly after I arrived where I was sent and got settled into an apartment, I was sitting on the couch shortly before "pumpkin hour" reading the Bible when I happened to look up toward the sliding glass door that led to the balcony to see a full moon in the clear night sky with a rainbow completely encircling it. It was a natural phenomenon that I've never seen before or since. I excitedly dragged my two WOW sisters out onto the balcony to see it, and they were as awestruck as I was. My interim corps WOW sister quoted Psalm 19:1, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork." The three of us interpreted this beautiful natural occurance as a sign from God that our WOW year would bring great blessings. Unfortunately, we all left before the year was over, with me being the first to go. After my discharge from the military, my memories of my twi involvement are mostly bad. Things had changed drastically that I didn't notice in the tapes and magazine issues that I received in the mail while I was on active duty. I returned from a combat tour of duty in Kuwait and Iraq to find that most of the caring, loving "leaders" I knew before had become overly critical of those whom they were responsible for "leading" and yelling at them rather than calmly and rationally explaining things with a loving attitude. Since I was recently in a war zone, I was and still am coping with the psychological trauma associated with firsthand experience of war. I came to the conclusion before I even left the Persian Gulf that what my country had done to the people of Iraq was a heinous criminal act, and I was so ashamed of my participation in it that I couldn't find the courage to even talk about what I had experienced until three years ago. The worst memory of my post-military involvement with twi, about 6 months after my discharge, involved a branch coordinator who got in my face and yelled at me like he was some kind of wannabe drill instructor. I don't remember exactly why he was yelling at me, but he said things like, "You better get your head straight with God, mister..." and other miscellaneous "renew your mind" crap. After putting up with 90 minutes or so of his impersonation of Sgt. Hartman in Full Metal Jacket something inside me snapped, and before either of us knew it, I had grabbed him by the larynx and slammed him against a wall. I pinned him there as I screamed a string of obscenities at him, telling him in no uncertain terms that my relationship with God was none of his business. It took three people to pull me off of him. When they got me to sit down, I was an emotional wreck, shaking and crying uncontrollably. I realized that I could have easily killed the guy with my bare hands just by squeezing a little harder on his adam's apple and crushing it. They knew I was a recently discharged veteran, but because of the shame and guilt that kept me from talking about my combat experience, they had no clue what they were dealing with as far as my fragile psyche was concerned. Of course they all thought I was possessed, and tried casting out the devil spirits. When that didn't work, they shunned me and refused to let me in the house I shared with four other followers to collect my personal belongings. I had nowhere to go except hitchhike 170+ miles to my parents house, where I decided to end my involvement with twi once and for all. I think all the factors that influence how those involved with twi (or any other cult for that matter) view the memories they've collected of their involvement could fill an entire volume of an encyclopedia. I was a 17 year old kid when I took the foundational class, and generally speaking, the younger you are, the easier it is for others to manipulate your mind. When twi's brainwashing techniques started to change from the subtle friendly seduction I was subjected to early on, to more overt militaristic brainwashing techniques like "face meltings" it got to a point where it hit a raw nerve in me that triggered an adrenaline induced fight-or-flight response.