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I thank all concerned parties for helping me cope with this kind of situation. I will not take it to heart any longer. I am rubber and they are glue... :) I know my heart and my capacity to love and I won't let my joy and peace be eclipsed by their immature and vindictive nature. I wish no evil will and in time they may sense my patience and compassion. Yes, I sometimes (maybe often) speak openly against the Bible but I do it with a desire to know the truth and not just believe it because someone else says so. I have no fear in putting God to the test... I am tired of the divisive nature of many of the scriptures (three religions killing each other for many centuries) and these people just prove my point about the dangers of how the orthodoxy has radicalized their minds. I am moving on and I will, take it as a compliment. THANKS! Yes, I'm making lemon-aid, extra sweet and the cherry pits I will plant in my backyard and try and grow a tree. Much Love DWW

In regards to the recent trend of "is twi worth our efforts anymore"...my opinion is that if twi is faltering and shrinking for "various" reasons...it's not the time to let up on them...now is the time to put the boots to them and finish them off...after that, we can go after the splinter groups like nazi war criminals... This entire Wierwillian philosophy of "power of the mind" should probably be labeled as witchcraft...his disciples continue on like mold growing in a dark damp place. I am repulsed by what they do to people. They rape the mind and ravage the soul. ...Because of what they have done...I will continue to do the Mexican hat dance on their faces.... Any thoughts?

I first posted at Trancechat and then Waydale...and now GreaseSpot...whether it's still relevant or not to post about twi depends on your personal perspective. As long as people make bad decisions there will be organizations like twi. It seems that some folks are masochistic enough to continue with their various splinter groups and re-invented cult nonsense...the nefarious nature of this beast is control and abuse...and it seems that there will always be people who enjoy this particular form of self mutilation. Me?...I still post about twi and their gawd awful "tadpole cults" that have spawned in various places...because they stole 13 years of my life and I'm not done speaking my mind about them...probably never will be either. They lie in God's name and steal the innocence of unsuspecting youths. They take your money and bleed your soul. They are parasites that suck people dry and discard them...they are lowlifes of the worst kind. old news?...no more than the third reich is old news. I see that the Germans are putting a near 90 year old man (who's dying) on trial for war crimes that happened nearly 70 years ago...As a wise man told me recently... the bottom line is about revenge...is this any different?

Thinking about this stuff for a few days now...Sowers?.... Let me see if I got this straight...The grandson of the grand pubah (who just happens to have the same name) starts a "thing" that closely resembles the waycorps training, even borrowing their main objectives...word for word. From all accounts, their doctrine is aligned closely to what Vic taught... ...and now this guy shows up proclaiming himself a sowers grad...and wanting to be pals with everyone. As far as I'm concerned, he can kiss my foot. plain and simple...if you follow the doctrines of victor small wierwille, you are a loser...been there done that. What these people believe is flat out wrong and destructive to people. As far as it goes, they can spread their poison elsewhere. I have no toleration for these sons of britches...none at all.

I was talking to Rumrunner one night and mentioned to him that we could easily start our own splinter group and start raking in the bucks...we both laughed and we both knew that it was true...any former member,( especially with corps experience) could put together a package and market it...start a website, put together some tapes and get your tax exempt, corporate splinter group on the road and moving... Call it..."The love of Christ truth ministries international"...sounds good...hmmmm, maybe a theological degree from some mail order outfit would help... ...of course we were joking over a few beers... ...makes me wonder about these guys who actually did it...and how they sleep at night.

I just noticed that--- O no---

All, If you saw the thread started by a new grad of the SOWERS program, there seemed to be a swarm to fresh meat. It kind of made me feel like an old grad at twig when (miraculously) a new person showed up. 13 pages (and counting) of posts but only a few from the guy who started it. He seemed to drop off fast and we just kept it among ourselves. Have we talked TWI to death yet? Or is there still more or new things to cover? As an irregular poster, others here may be better able to answer. JT

Well I wont check any questions that have to do with open or transparent, honest, truthful or forthcoming--Those can immediately be checked right off the list I will however give them an "A" for hiding well under the bushes, as well as fearfulness. I'll give them great marks for those, although those arent personally my top priorities of things to look for in a religious group. ....St. Vic Jr. come on over---Where are you? Show us what you've got--we are all interested in what you have to say- Stand and be counted Dude

and whoever anonymous member marked down the last post.. lets look at a few facts and reality here.. the numbnuts down south failed to "get a life".. perhaps one or more did..but what happened? Now their little camping "adventure" is cloaked in darkness.. why? It wouldn't survive the light of day.. feel free to disagree all you want..

Or perhaps old puke from last night's bad drunk. It's still fun to make fun of memories of them worshiping over the porcelain god and speaking in liquid screams. Shot 'o Drambuie anyone?

Wow I'm heavily struck, here, with how unpredictable can be the human condition and the oft strong desire to be right, to be sure to get the last word in, to be sure to one-up another. Not exactly the vision Pawtucket had, I'm sure, when he said something like "lets tell the other side of the story and maybe have some fun doing it". If someone pi$ses me off and I just can't stand it, I fail to see the good in not standing it so publically; I guess I'll never understand that and I'm glad I don't get it. Caleb, in his youthful "I was just kidding" approach and tone after his original approach of "I'll show up on your stoop"..........I think that those of us that have children that are older than 22 might understand that silliness quicker and yes, he did deserve to have explained to him the better way to frame things here. But my question, then, is whether or not like bahavior isn't happening amongst those that were comfy to tell him straighten up and fly right. The bully on the playground that barges into the new playground, making comments that he later states were "just kidding" then gets to sit back and watch as those he is presumed to have bullied go at each other. I think we too often have no idea of another's intentions, and of course we lack eye contact and body language and general knowledge of someone that is merely known to us on a computer screen. Then I've known of two or more people getting together on the phone or an IM and prod each other against another. "you post this and I'll follow with this" and so it goes. For what? To show someone how tough we are, how much more we know than them, we're big, they're small and by God we are going to make sure they remember it? Sad and our new friend Caleb, bless his heart and pass the peas, sees only the bickering and spitting and why the hell wouldn't he feel comfortable to come back with more of his own goodies. I don't know the man called Caleb but I do understand young people that age and I do understand having connections to people of note and just those two combined make for a powerful mix of "pffffttttt" Is that his intent? I'm not sure I care, but as is the original idea of the forum, too, he has the right to express it and yes, the responsibility to accept the consequences of a strong group of people. I looked at his posts through the lens of a mama and more fun, the mama of a 20 something kid that is forever making statements that she might have to swallow whole in a short time, sometimes all the time. She'll get it and so will Caleb, I pray. I know I did when as I matured and understood and got off my '10 foot tall and bulletproof' ladder. But to go at each other in such a public manner...........nah. Sad. Caleb, say what you need to say, just do heed alot of the posters sage wisdom of caution, whatever that is for you.

I disagree. Here's why. I understand how some people may think The Way was good “in the old days” and somehow “got off track” in later years. But I take issue with this line of thinking. I call it deluded nostalgia: a wistful or excessively sentimental yearning for return to or of some past period or irrecoverable condition. What exactly is that condition people are craving? I was involved from 1971-1987 and I don’t crave any of it. But I figure I’d pitch in my two cents here. Frankly, I think it appears to be nostalgia for small fellowships with rock music or old hymns “corrected to be accurate” with Way doctrine, simple teachings (I guess), and camaraderie with others who thought like we did, and learning “what the Bible says.” On the surface, these things seem fairly harmless. But when I really think about the “old TWI days,” and these activities, I come up with some concerns: 1. The simplistic idealism that we could save the world with cut and dry Bible answers 2. The lack of mature dealings in the world. I was addressed as a child and kept from growing up while in the Corps and afterwards, 3. The gross neglect of my critical thinking faculty 4. The fact we were supposed to sell the PFAL class to people in order for VP to approve of our lives 5. The issue of whether we were “helping people” by using tools belonging to VP’s brand of fundamentalism 6. As far as I know, some still think they helped people with “the Word.” But what exactly is “The Word?” It’s very vague to me. My understanding is that when a phrase is used, there’s a definition for it somewhere. I don’t know of one for “The Word.” It is a phrase thrown around as if we all know what it means. This reminds me of the fairytale about the Emperor’s new clothes. The fact was: Emperor was not wearing any clothes. I don’t think anyone knows what The Word is. 7. Suffice it to say here, the usual explanation by TWI people and former TWI people for what “The Word” is goes something like this: you have to “use certain keys to research to discover what the original Word was.” Whose keys to research? How come we so readily accepted VP’s which he took from various other people who were fundamentalists? If it were so simple to know “The Word,” how come so many diverse interpretations persist? But back to the good old days. Let’s say the “good old Way days” were good after all, although this is hard for me to fathom. What exactly is being referred to by this claim? IMO, VP created some sense of community with some people for awhile, but what was that based upon? The way I see it, it was based on an agreement that VP’s teachings were God’s Word, on the commitment to the common cause of VP’s delusion of “moving The Word over the World,” and on a simple love for other people - as long as they obeyed what VP said was The Word. If they didn’t, at the very least they were not as spiritual as we were; at the very worst they were “born of the seed of the devil.” Let’s not forget, however, that this conditional camaraderie came at a price: It was held together by a patriarchal system fraught with deception and power struggles, not to mention rampant sexual, fiscal, and emotional abuse. In my view, wishing for “the good old days of The Way” denies the nature of the group itself – a fundamentalist, narrow-minded, anti-Christian movement. Why do I say it is anti-Christian? Because people were used as a means to an end. What was the end? Believe that what VP taught was the truth. Evangelize. Sell PFAL classes. Behave according to what The Way leadership dictated. Nostalgia for the old days also seems to deny the fact that from its inception, the cult was engineered by V.P. Wierwille, who claimed, like Paul in the New Testament, that he heard an audible voice from a monotheistic God adopted from another culture from thousands of years ago (or the voice of Jesus, as in Paul’s case) that no one else heard. This raises all sorts of issues too complex to get into here I think. While I met many good people whose kindness made me feel loved, during my TWI years, VP’s teachings, such as telling me I was “more than a conqueror” did not help me resolve problems I brought into The Way with me. For awhile, it engendered a positive attitude in me but it did not produce a healthy self image or tolerance, understanding and compassion for others who might not agree with what I believed. I think the doctrines in many instances only instilled a good deal of denial about myself, the good in the world, other cultures, and denial about what it means to be human. When I first took PFAL, at 18 years old, I certainly was gullible to The Way’s “answers” but the human brain is not even fully developed until 23 or 24 years old so that’s part of this scenario, too. But I also readily admit that I consciously turned a deaf ear to people who warned me not to get involved. Not only did I make grave errors in judgment when getting involved with TWI, but I was seduced by big fat claims about the nature of the system I was in. It claimed to be a biblical research ministry but it is extreme fundamentalism. I suggest more of us get informed not only about how cults function but what fundamentalism is and the history of its development. It’s not only a way of interpreting the bible but a way of existing in the world.

We just turned off the negative reputation points. Although they were fun, especially in the Politics forum, they proved useless (and actually made some upset). Disagreement with a post now will have to be done via a non-vote. The forums will highlight anything that gets 10 positive points. So if you think something someone wrote is good, +1 it so others will find it more easily.

I don't often check my account setting here but today I did and noticed that two people have voted my post down. Why didn't they just spit in my face? A man profiteth little in his own country. I like conversing here and I even love my enemies... but again I think it is caused by the male dominated, hate the gay guy homophobia, that caused me to reject "the way" in the first place. I guess these homophobes expect me to just believe everything they say while they claim to deny blind faith. I have close to twenty thousand friends on other forums, and a group I created myself with eight thousand loving members from nearly every country in the world.... And they added themselves as friends AND joined my group... I think I know who voted me down too, but I refuse to think evil or retaliate in the same petty way.... I am a better man. I know my ideas are often fanciful, sometime unorthodox and even bordering on heretical but I am not vindictive, just sometimes verbally opinionated. I posted this in the doctrinal topic because that is the subject I usually post in anyway. If anyone cares about me even as just a human being please try and reverse these attacks on my character and vote me up to at least zero. I don't want to leave this world hated...

Ok, really, I'm trying to understand here, truly. I'll drop it except to say that I do understand the young people aspect, being a mother and that of a 15 year old who is obviously searching, asking, questioning and yes it is wonderful to see her eyes when she heads for her own decisions. Also the mother of a 28 year old who is making some really bad choices and could use some of some God in my opinion (even if a fable) but who listens to their mama when they're 28? I guess I'm stuck on the "storybook" part of this thread. So rather than keep badgering you about it, I'll move along and maybe the answer will be in here somewhere; it might already be, but I do better with as little in between stuff as possible. I'm just not clear as to what you consider "storybook" where God's love and the Bible and all that is concerned. Pretend there is a white flag in this feller's hand I get it, the answer isn't here, no biggie, just my curious nature to want to know.

How is it God setting up man to fall? He defined what His rules were, and gave man the choice to obey or not. If you have children, and you tell them to do something, are you setting them up to fall if they disobey? Fallen from the exalted position God originally meant for man, having dominion over His creation. God cannot leave sin unpunished or He would not be a just and righteous judge. The price for sin is death... somebody had to pay it. In His mercy God provided His Son as a sacrifice to pay for our sins. God is not only smart, but also both righteous and merciful.

No one likes being trashed. The trashing that goes on at other sites is going to happen. As Linda explained so well, I am going to be an object of criticism. It is an unfortunate side effect of the type of discussion site that I run. There were instances of My real name and my address being published. They were removed quickly. The issue at hand is presenting the other side of the story and a place to discuss it. All the other stuff is fluff. I'm happy to present the other stuff and will take the criticism if the other side of the story of TWI gets told and hopefully can help people get the answers that they need.

I didn't know it was the charter of GSC to be helpful. I think that being helpful was from the BASIC (not WAY driven) goodness of people's own hearts. I believe - if I can still read English - the mission is to tell the other side of the story. While I certainly wish no harm on newbies who have (perhaps...and often fabricated) trauma of their own... simple facts are that GSC is not a certified psychological "help site." Just a bunch of folks telling the "other side of the story." Excie - perhaps you should go back to the JW site where you have been trashing GSC as well as Pawtucket by his real name. It has not been missed by several here on GSC. Pawtucket gave you safe haven and you have endeavored to trash him on the net. Wanna buy a used motor coach too?

First there was the "President of Greasespot???" thread. Apparently, Craig Martindale was listed as President here at the ol' GSC. But he always said he could be a successful executive. So what if he was? On last report, he was climbing the corporate (aluminum) ladder at Home Depot. So what WOULD life be like at Home Depot under a Martinpail regime? Stringing the paint cans in aisle 12? Check out girls in mini-skirts? All managers must wear smoking jackets? JT

Garth, knock off the smug self-righteous attitude. We all know you hate God, Christ, the Bible - we get it. You've let us all know, you've made no bones about it. You always come and drop you little hate bombs in the doctrinal threads. Read my post again. I used Moses as someone, who, if the Bible is true - and I believe it is, was the head of a theocracy, but had the "signs" to back it up. Thus, the people followed. Other then him, every theocracy has been man, playing God. I then gave some examples of results that happen when men play god. As for the one to come, I believe He will. You, on the other hand agree with those Peter mentions - they scoff, and wonder where is his coming, its been so long... Good for you. He's either coming or he isn't. I believe he will someday, you believe its a myth. Fine. I don't hate you or come on with a nasty attitude towards you - but for some reason you feel you must. So, continue to rage against the machine Garth, just quit taking it out on everyone who believes differently than you.

From Skyrider on another thread: you pathetic "old timers" who snagged junior in this disgrace: what are you doing, that is any bit different? The only thing I can say that MIGHT be different, is number 9 and 10 on the list. For now at least. I can't say either way. The relevance here though, even if you didn't partake in gramps sin, were you AWARE of it? If so, how does that affect your "qualifications" to lead? Do you still sweep gramps real legacy under the rug? The worst part.. you raised junior to believe that gramps was some kind of bible super hero..

Wierwille's corps program was not a leadership program......it was a followship program. Wierwille had no interest in raising up leaders to walk in the steps of Jesus Christ......he devised a "marine-style-follow-orders" program to graduate followers who were trained to be his pfal-class instructors. True to his ideals, wierwille cried his eyes out over the likes of J0hnnie Towns3nd for his "follow-ship and heart to serve" the idolized pfal class. Later, J0hnnie was recognized as honorary corps.....because of his leadership? No.....because of his follow-ship. What was wrong with wierwille's corps program? ... 1) The foundation was twi-dependency....not the author/finisher of faith, Jesus Christ. ... 2) Too vague in promotion of "serving God"......iron-clad obedience upon graduation to twi??? ... 3) Corps "training" was too much rehash of pfal......far too much indoctrination. ... 4) No scope of true ministering....counseling.....relationships.....boundaries....adultery/sin. ... 5) Campus coordinators had to kowtow to wierwille's machinery of regimented control. ... 6) No individuality.....groupthink was standard operation. ... 7) Arrogant leadership monopolize lunchtime announcements during meals. ... 8) Childish songs were sung repeatedly...........subliminal dependency?? ... 9) After graduation, and years later......wierwille still labeled some corps as "cop-outs" ... 10) And, besides the manipulation, intimidation, exploitation...........the SEX PREDATION. When I take a long, hard look at the corps program..........it was a disgrace and disservice to God Almighty from the get-go. Not only was wierwille academically unqualified to oversee the training of future disciples, he was a wolf in sheep's clothing and intent on preying and lusting over the females. The corps program provided the isolation and secrecy for wierwille's sex predation that he voiced in 1969 when he went to those orgies in Haight-Ashbury. As the money poured into twi......the purchase of vp's motorcoach and far-away campuses and soldout bodyguards gave wierwille access to fulfill the lusts of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and wierwille's pride of life: POWER.

Is it me, or is there a hidden Wayfer apologist coming along behind every one of you guy's posts, and flicking the negative red button? (BTW, I flicked all the green buttons by your names, so as to help negate such trolling behavior.)

Last I noticed Home Depot was already over the World- If they wanted to drastically reduce the number of stores that they have, emperil the success of the company, or watch complete states leave in droves while he is telling them of their expansion --well--- they should hire him on as topdog --Martindale as a CEO would be the quickest way to crash and burn any company

We were warned?... The entire way ministry was based on Wierwille's claim that God spoke audibly to him..."I will teach you the word as it has not been known since the first century if you will teach it to others"...the snow on the gas pumps story...When Vic made this claim in piffle, it was the lightning bolt that exploded in people's minds...it was the HOOK. This drunken schmuck was God's chosen one! If you questioned him, you were gone. 13 years after I first took piffle...I was confronted by twi leadership and asked if I disagreed with "dr" wierwille (this was 2 years after he croaked)...I said yes and was considered to be a spiritual leper. Looking back, I can honestly say that questioning wierwille was the same as being "out of fellowship"...warned?...what? are you kidding me?

The reality is that most here don't really want to do anything other than badger the heck out of the guy. There are very few people that I've been acquainted with that can hold their own in that kind of situation. Although one would think that four hours a day of bible study/training, along with four hours a day of disciplined physical labor would adequately prepare someone to hold one's own in a debate or arm wresting competition.

It pretty much already has--Here and at a hundred other sites--Even 99% of the people who once believed it have grown up and seen it for the swiss cheese theology that it is and moved on. It never held water and it certainly hasnt held any water over time. It never was the E=mc2 great revelation to change the world, it was more like a glass of Tang that was empty of any nutrients and had a very short shelf life. If it was released today it would be laughed at as a bizarre relic of a bygone era--I dont extend much to the honchos but they must know that

Yep.. I couldn't have said it better.. You'd think they'd just go get a life, and be satisfied with it.. but nooooo...

Interesting that each category got at least one vote. Geez, I guess we're just not like-minded. JT

This new SOWERS program is proof that the beast's heart is still beating. It's like a stinking time machine, designed to go back and start The Corps and Fellow Laborers all over again. They seem to have completely disregarded any valuable lessons that might have been gleaned from TWI history. Sure, it looks harmless enough today, but what assurances are there it will turn out any different when, in fact, the very principles it has been fashioned after have been proven to be defective and dangerous? In fact, how do we really know it isn't a phantom effort of the monster that spawned it? TWI is still current news, IMO.

Much of this parallels what happened in The Way. Substitute MOG for "chosen one". Substitute Motorcoach for Alamo's "special" bedroom arrangement. Substitute Harley's for"ponies in the backyard". Substitute babes in the word for "baby Christians". Note that followers were expected to live on minimal subsistence while the leader lived like a king. Note that they had their own special language and were expected to maintain an attitude of submission. And so on. 1.Holding people against their will Most of this was of a psychological nature. When you are stuck in the middle of nowhere with no money or transportation, it can feel like you are being held. Add that to the "hedge of protection" concept that basically states you can never really leave "the household" without leaving yourself open to an attack from the boogie man. And, as was pointed out, there is a documented incident on the front page of this very website, that details the house arrest, at gun point, of a former Way leader. (Through the fog) 2. Withholding food. Yes. In fellow laborers, we had a food co-op. If you didn't make your weekly payment, you had to sit at meals with the group but were not allowed to eat. It was not permitted for anyone to offer you part of their share or offer to make a payment on your behalf. (We found ways around this one.) 3. Beaten with boards I never personally witnessed anyone being physically beaten. Many of our posters who spent their childhood in The Way, though, have posted first hand accounts of severe corporal punishment for misbehavior and non-compliance. One poster has stated that she and her husband were admonished, by leadership, to discipline their child with a 2x4. Armed guards walked the various Way properties and functions. One poster here has stated it was part of his responsibility, as a HQ staffer, to maintain the evesdropping "bugs" in the BRC. So I would have to conclude that MANY similar things happened in The Way.

The odd thing is that if what they have is so unbelievably wonderful as they tell you, you would think that they would want to share it with the rest of the world and correct our misperceptions instead of running and hiding, or just never coming out of the wood work in the first place. Isnt there something about "hiding your light under a bushel". I have sat with Bishops and Archbishops, Higher ups of various denominations and 95% of the ones that I have talked to are straightforward and honest even in regards to the obvious problems that they face. In other words even if I dont agree with them on certain matters at the least they deal with things in an honorable way as part of their 'witness', most of them I have genuine appreciation for....and although I would never use a phrase like "man of God" to describe anyone, some I admire and might consider it if I had no other words available to me. I really dont understand the "we have some great secret that you dont" mentality, or the John Lynn type driveby "buy my book" postings of a few years ago either. Christianity especially the organized kind is hard enough to get my head around under the best of circumstances let alone someone slamming me with "buy my stuff" "Bumper Sticker Christianity" replete with false bravado, secrecy, and an attitude does nothing for me, it holds about as much spiritual appeal as Billy Mays hawking OxyClean or Vince selling ShamWows (absolutely amazing!!! act now!! bring your credit card!!) on 3 AM TV. I'll give him a chance by fercryinoutloud how the heck does he expect to convince anyone of anything with his current stance. He seems like a good kid, Working all these hours I hope that he is saving up for either his years of therapy or his years of alcoholism when it finally dawns on him how they took advantage of him and his naivete. O---and have the damn courage to speak up Saint Vic Jr, Im talking to you, paint your own damn house you lazy weasel

And spoil everyone's fun? He is a young whippersnapper who doesn't know sh!t from shinola. You know, like most of us when we were his age, only most of us didn't know it then, either. But that's different - well, at least for some of us. Linda Z, you are entirely too rational at times. I love it, but it'll cause your "reputation" to suffer.

Honestly no-they are not for me. I dont understand the jubilation at a free Bible teaching Is that something new, remarkable and revolutionary somewhere? I can walk into just about any church in the world or turn on the TV in just about any city or poke around the internet and hear bible teachings for free anytime of the day or night. If you like them ---fine--but its not like they are doing anything new, or that they shouldnt be doing anyway. Is it? The weird part was that they were ever charging in the first place

thanks linzee i didn't see that. it was really nice of you to respond as far as the voting + - thing, i think it's ridiculous

Those red/green buttons that vote your post up or down? Wow! Like they determine who and what you really are? The people who know you better won't give a ratz pizzazz about some insignificant pair of clickable buttons, and the people who don't know you won't care either. So welcome to the Greasespot, where the women are tuff, the men have hairy armp**s, and the moderator is cool n' groovy.

I'm posting this link because I've been asked about this group. It is a spinoff group of twi. Capital Area Biblical Studies Fellowship

TWI is accusing someone of plagiarism???? What a hoot!!

Like all things twi.....more hoops were continually added to the "training" process. Take pfal....then intermediate....and later, the advanced class to be "fully instructed." THEN.....you really need to take other "advanced studies" classes ie The Renewed Mind, Witnessing and Undershepherding, The Way Tree, Keys to Biblical Research, Dealing with the Adversary, etc. Go WOW.....grow 10 years in 1 year. You've got to go, to know. Go WOW again....this time, do it better. Do it right. Go Corps....spiritual training for God's best twig coordinators. Upon graduation, go forth to serve. BUT......many 3rd, 4th and 5th corps were "invited" back for another inresidence block. Wierwille wanted these selected corps grads to take part in all inresidence activities....to be zealous for all things twi. Yet, on several occasions, wierwille expressed disgust and contempt towards certain individual corps grads......who, according to him, were slothful and unappreciative of this "invite." Years later.....martindale expected ALL CORPS GRADS to sit thru weekly corps meetings, submit reports and attend all branch/limb meetings, etc. If one didn't jump thru all the hoops......the corps grad status was withdrawn and one was labeled "corps alumni." Even as early as 1978, wierwille had to strong-arm some corps grads to "stay committed to his directives." He was clearly not happy with some corps/clergy that were "spreading their wings and flying away." IMO.....it had everything to do with REALITIES OF LIFE......marriage, kids, career, home mortgage, career advancements, neighbors, community, etc......and wierwille could no longer CONTROL their decisions.

WW.....you beat me to it. I was just about to say the same thing. Wierwille was idolized......warts and all.

Thank you, Twinky and Waterbuffalo (nice to see you ~!) it has been a beautiful thing for my girls. Samantha was 15 and Kelly 23 months when their father died and so having a memorial tree is important, yes. We've kicked around different ideas as to marking it, a rock, something but we also rent our home so for that reason we've kept it simply a little tree growing in our yard. We do need a place to go and do as we feel comforts us or provides us solice, yes. We were also given a gravesite at a local cemetary. We'll see what we end up doing as time goes. The daddy tree is a place where beloved pets have been buried, flowers have been planted, stories have been told. It's been run over by a snowplow, squashed by a pickup, run over by a lawnmower twice and yet it lives and grows. :) I struggle with our situation; the girls not having something in the world that says their father lived and died, but I also understand that it's not his death that did so much to their lives as it was his life.

How bizarre!!! Going to TWI during a crisis, even when I was in, never crossed my mind. Don't these people have friends or family? Sheeshh! JT

I really do hate the reputation thing.

This weekend marks the 40-year anniversary of the Manson murders. For me, it is a chilling reminder to see the shocking outcome when blind allegiance to a cult leader runs its course. When I attended wierwille's advanced class, I was surprised to see all the conspiracy theories... ie the illuminati, the myth of the six million, the marxist minstrels, every denomination is headed by seed men etc. etc. Far removed from reading bible verses, this "advanced class" was ushering in ideologies, unsubstantiated theories, us-versus-them agendas. In this isolated class-setting, one needed to severely ante-up to be counted as a faithful advanced class grad. Then, the corps indoctrination included aspects of MAL-pack (more abundant life in survival settings) where each corps twig was required to map out a secret destination in the event of government collapse/takeover. More so in the corps indoctrination program, the mantra "the suggestion of a general is tantamount to a command" was well-known and voiced by the corps coordinators. So, the "general" (wierwille) might suggest something in private...and the "soldier" was to follow orders. Wierwille manipulated an "army" to jump at his command. Don't ask questions, don't ask how high to jump.........just jump. Thaaaaaat's riiiiiight. IMO, it's chilling to see the parallels of Manson's followers and the extreme subtle suggestions to the corps. Manson directed his followers' actions from behind the scenes. He didn't bloody his own hands. Thankfully, wierwille didn't project violent "prophecies" to his followers.....at least, not to my knowledge. BUT...........how close to the edge did we go???? When so many blame martindale for twi's downfall, they fail to recognize wierwille's ultra-smooth conning of one's conscience. Chilling reminders.......... :blink:

There's a significant body of opinion here at the Café to the effect that VPW knew that PFAL / TWI was a scam – out to get money, and that he wasn't a genuine minister but (wording differs) a shyster, charlatan, snake-oil salesman, etc. It was set up as a scam, right from the beginning. It is also widely believed at the Café that he plagiarized the principal books (PFAL and RHST) and also used other people's work which he passed off as his own. It was a scam. People here are happy to say that. And those same people are happy to give Mrs Wierwille, Dotsie, a free pass. She is seen as a victim of VPW's sexual profligacy, and there seems to be no doubt that she was aware of his behavior in that direction. But ... does she deserve the free pass? She was with him right from the beginning. She supported him in his early years. She was a woman who could speak and act for herself: she ran away with him (apparently). She wasn't cowed by his "greatness" then. She was around when he was thrown out of his original church. She participated in his trip to India. She was there when he began to get involved with BG Leonard. She must have seen BG's book in the house; probably read it. And surely the original founding trustees didn't get together without discussing it with their wives? And yes, it was "another time" when she was younger, when VPW got going with his "ministry," and it may have been harder for a woman to leave her husband – but women did leave their husbands and did divorce them. So…does she really deserve the free pass? Didn't her support help the TWI juggernaut get off the ground (before it crushed her too!)? She didn't speak up right in the beginning, when she knew and could nip it in the bud. Doesn't that silence, and her enjoyment of the "benefits" make her also a scammer?

There is a provision in the law for disobedient children to be taken to the elders and stoned. . . . are there accounts of this ever being carried out? Sadly, I have no problem believing this was taught as justifiable behavior.

There were only two "successful" African Americans in twi that I can think of: L*nnel J8hnson and Claudette. I think L8nnel was ordained by vic.. don't know about claudette. That's two out of.. how many.. hundreds? Maybe there were a few others.. as far as liberty lobby and spotlight is concerned.. isn't it intriguing that the guy who said NEWSPAPERS were so darn "negative".. stories about murder, accidents, suicide, death.. were so "bad" for believing- which is a straw man to begin with- adopted different kind of "negatives"- stories of government takeover, murder, and intrigue? maybe vic should have put his newspapers and periodicals down for a while, and read the bible..

What happened to all my prayers? Ya know, before I ever heard of The Way, I had no idea my prayers were second rate. Then I got witnessed to and found out I had it all wrong. See, you can't actually talk to God like you talk to everyone else. You have to have this special language, that they speak in the land of Lo Shanta, or God won't have a clue what you're talking about.And, God can't talk back to you either unless you talk to yourself in this new language lots and lots every day. And you have to make a real effort to expand your vocabulary, too, or God will just keep telling you the same stuff over and over again. Heck, I've even heard people say they prayed to God for answers (without the Lo Shanta stuff) and, presto, someone from TWI appeared to invite them to Twig and sign them up for PLAF. But, how can that be if God can't understand your prayers in the first place? So then my question is this: What happened to all those prayers I said before I heard of TWI?

Never have bought anything from QVC or HSN/C... what a wonderful bunch of kids you have there... and the oldest must be incredibly smart, going to the University of Chicago! :)