Leaderboard

First, to DWBH, please, let's keep it about content and not about people. And in that vein...I for one don't care one whit about what TLC might see or think on the matter. I only care about the actual quality of the argument and contribution to the discussion. [The bulk of this post was deleted as soon as I realized it was off topic. The following replaces what I originally wrote. If you saw what I originally wrote: I stand by it. But it's off topic.] Jesus specifically commissioned the 12 to preach the gospel to the gentiles. They didn't do it. THEN Jesus goes to Paul. Seems to me that if the apostles had done what Jesus told them to do, he would not have needed to commission Paul to do something as specific as the very thing he told the 12 to do. That is an explanation that is completely consistent with what the Bible teaches on every level. It does not insert an extraneous subtext of "first Israel, then etc. It's really not even a little complicated. This is what the Bible shows and tells. Why am I the only one quoting Jesus in this conversation? P.S. To TLC: I have twisted NOTHING and I am sick of you LYING about that. You are NOT entitled to LIE about other posters, so STOP LYING. You keep saying that I'm twisting your words when I am merely holding a mirror up to the weaknesses of your arguments. That you should constantly resort to false accusations against me is becoming tiresome. it only shows how little you have to contribute to the dialogue here.

I'm going out on a limb here and assume that, by a *higher level of reasoning*, you're referring to revelation.This is a contradiction of terms.Revelation, according to the definitions we were supplied, does not rely on reasoning. By its very nature, it defies reasoning.

Pam, "finding God," was very expensive. I also took it back in 1978; a hundred dollars was a lot of money back then. The class always made me want to fall asleep; what a boring class!! Not only was it boring, but I think ultimately it was worthless to me.

Hi Leah..........welcome to the Café. For those of you who grew up at hq and had parents in leadership positions, I can only imagine the hardships, scrutiny, challenges and fear that were embedded into your psyche at such a young age. As you distinguished astutely in an earlier post.....it sounds like you are well on your way to separating your "cult self" from your "authentic self." And further, you have now established proper boundary lines with your family and loved ones by openly and publically stating what is acceptable, and not acceptable, to you. Good for you! Keep claiming what is rightfully YOURS.......an "authentic self." Individual sovereignty........to think, explore, believe, live, challenge, and commit to the passions that burn within your soul. My wife and I exited twi nearly 21 years ago after, what I would term, six turbulent years as leadership in Oklahoma. Suffice it to say that I spent time with your parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts, and some of your first cousins. Look how their lives have changed in the past 20-something years! Commitments changed. Perspectives altered. None of what they were, or weren't, committed to should hold sway to YOUR goals, passions or self-esteem. You have every right and reason to pursue this journey of self-exploration. And, from the sounds of things.....you've read some good books and, for years, have read threads here at GSC. Good for you. Go at the pace that fits your schedule. Most all of us have a past of *burdens, hurts and fears* that we are working thru or have overcome........hell, I went thru 10-days of deprogramming to fight my way back to my fiancé and then, dealt with years of being estranged from my parents/family. So, yeah......I can relate to the challenges one faces of self-authenticity and autonomy. Live on the sunrise side of the mountain......and greet the days that are before you. You are a brave woman and I commend you for it.

What was he like as a person? (I don't know about now, so I will go with what he WAS like, and proceed from there.) He wasn't terribly imposing physically. However, it was not beneath him to consider violence as an option-nor threats, either. He was hardly alone in this. I once had a run-in with the late T0m M, years before he committed suicide because he couldn't stop lcm from nailing Mrs T0m M. He was a larger dude, and wanted me to stop an uncomfortable line of discussion (this was at ROA '89, when 1/5 of the previous year's attendees showed, and most of them left twi shortly after that event.) He tried intimidating me physically, and when that failed, he tried to get a rise out of me by threatening physical violence. I bugged him more by simply getting calmer and calmer the more he tried. His final attempt was to try to claim I was unemotional because I wasn't reacting. (No, just smarter and with better mental discipline. Plus, he grew up in the suburbs, I grew up in the 'hood.) Cgeer had no problem similarly trying intimidation OR threats, but was not a physically imposing man nor a trained fighter. So, he didn't default to it all the time, and he needed to use things to accomplish it. Cgeer and lcm (craig) were both the 2 biggest vpw-worshippers in twi. That's why vpw- who loved how they smooched his metaphorical tushie- made them twi elites. lcm was made his successor, and cg went from vpw's bodyguard to in charge of a twi property in a different continent than lcm. (When lcm and the others pushed the retired vpw to the side, vpw ran to cg to cry on his shoulder about how he was being neglected, and how this would destroy twi because they were forsaking Gawd Almighty by ignoring him they way he ignored others who had retired.) cgeer was used to taking care of vpw's dogs (vpw never took care of them), and walking around armed with vpw at public appearances. cg claimed-and I believe he was not lying- that he had been prepared, if necessary, to act as a human shield to take any bullets fired at vpw if something happened. So, how did cg intimidate people? His primary methods were threefold: 1) brandish a firearm, which is a crime in the US 2) use the dogs and menace them (menacing is also a crime in the US) 3) send someone else to intimidate them Others in twi were more fond of the "send others" than cg, but he seemed to like the feeling of power he got when he instilled fear in people by threatening them with a gun or big dog. Mind you, that was 30 years ago, literally. He's 30 years older, and doesn't have the physical power he DID have, such as he had. For someone who only feels secure wielding the power, to live without it is to live in fear. So, he naturally would go into hiding, and lay low or surround himself with security. For someone who is aware of how many lives he hurt, both in acting as a de facto procurer for vpw and in his own capacity to misuse power, he knows there's people who might harm him if they had the change to settle a score, and he's not young. So, that alone would send him into hiding. So, he goes into hiding, and cultivates a sense of mystique about him, making it look like the hiding is anything BUT the cowardice that it is. Mind you, the fact that he was more than a little crazy- and thus unpredictable and lacking self-control- was another issue, and people could be scared he'd go off without warning...which he sometimes did in imitation of vpw. All of that means he's not as scary as he was 30 years ago... and without a gun or a big dog to back him up, he wasn't really scary back then.

The Way frequently employed this tactic to deny people the necessary opportunity to grieve, as well. To be fair, The Way is not the only organization that does this. However, we're not really talking about what other groups do or have done, we're talking specifically about The Way. Many years ago, I needed time and space to grieve the loss of a close friend. I was told I couldn't change what had happened and that I needed to move on immediately. After leaving the cemetery, having served as a pall bearer, I went straight to the next session of Dealing With The Adversary, at the urging of leadership. They told me I needed to put the past behind me and move forward right away. No time to cry over what can't be changed. "Word over the World must take precedence over all else", they told me. "Emotions are the devil's way of tricking me out of staying focused", they said. As you said, you can't change the factual realities of the past but you can change the way it is interpreted. I was manipulated into relinquishing a grieving process that I really needed. Shame on them for promoting this nonsense. And, shame on me for listening to them.