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I left twi over 30 years ago and have not been comfortable in any church all that time. My mind kept judging their doctrine no matter how loving and accepting the people were. When I began to spend time on GSC, beginning with the Absent Christ thread, I began to see how much of twi's doctrine on the holy spirit field, the law of believing and the "word takes the place of the absent Christ" was inaccurate and had crippled my walk with Christ. It's only been four months and now I've started to fellowship with Christians in a church where I feel at home. A lot of what I'm seeing there lines up with what I've learned on GSC. The important point to realize is that for me, I needed to begin having fellowship with Christ before I could fellowship with others who belong in his body outside of twi. What helped me to connect with my Lord was posting on GSC so the believers there could show from scripture how it is God's will that we have fellowship with Christ. Once I understood that and I could open the door to receiving him, he went from being someone I knew about in my head to being someone alive in my life. I still read and send posts on GSC so I can continue learning and maybe help others as I've been helped.

The Bible declares itself to be God breathed. Therefore, it must be because the Bible says so and it's God Breathed... That's about as circular as you can get. There is no outside evidence to suggest it's God Breathed. PFAL? it doesn't even claim to be.

Oftentimes, we hear when twi-followers finally decide to exit TWI..... they seek out a splinter group. Seemingly, deep down they must still cling to the twi-mantra that victor paul wierwille was chosen by God to lead them to the "rightly-divided Word" or some equivalent of the same. Clearly, the "truth of pfal" is sound [they think].... it's just that LCM, Rosalie and Donna screwed it all up. Pick any one of them as the *fall guy*...... but NOT wierwille. So, off they go to a splinter group... lulled into another loop around the block. How long will they stay in this cycle? Depends. Does it touch all the right buttons of nostalgia for those "good ole days?" Do they feel accepted and needed? Are they again (cough, cough) an intricate part of moving God's Word [pfal] to others? For some.... do they keep questioning and looking diligently for answers? Or, do they settle into a "cozy" splinter group that, at first, welcomes them with open arms and doesn't ask for donations [yet]? If they keep asking the hard questions.... this splinter group, too, will not be filling their need. But if they settle in and stop questioning the deeper questions like, "Why did twi collapse so quickly? Why was lcm such an ego-driven maniac.... the one whom wierwille chose to be the 2nd president of twi? Why did wierwille teach that cancer is a devil spirit and later.... die of cancer? Why didn't wierwille get healed if he was "God's chosen" who taught solid principles of health and prosperity? Why did the trustees lie saying 'wierwille died of a broken heart?' Etc. etc. ??" When the door to questioning begins.....THEN can one find answers. GreaseSpot Cafe offers the first, clear vision that twi-followers are caught in a trap. No other group offers this direct approach. Even though back in the 80's, Lynn's group, CES/STFI, offered up its list that diverged from twi.... it only went so far. At no time, did it delve into wierwille's questionable claims and mystique of "the man of God." And, of course.... Geer offered NOTHING but a posthumous accounting of wierwille's "greatness" and took it to levels of franchising classes. A legion of other splinters, too, chose to hang onto wierwille's coattails and ride the rails to the bank. But GSC, the successor of Waydale, offers another way for twi-followers to GET OUT OF THIS TRAP. With healthy discussions and vigorous debate....GSC allows participants to engage in open discussions. No questions are off-limits [except politics]. Neither twi nor its splinter groups allow for open, full-throated discussions in the public arena. Why the censorship? What are they protecting? We saw ALL OF THIS back in 1986 when the trustees prohibited anyone from reading John Schoenheit's research paper on "Adultery." Many corps leaders were fired and/or shunned for even reading it. Why was twi so afraid of uncovering the biblical truths regarding adultery? Any guesses? LOL Fast forward to 2023.... and the censorship regarding questions about wierwille remain. But not here..... not at GSC. .

Exactly right. The more I questioned twi's doctrine.... the more inaccuracies I found. Then, my understanding and relationship with Jesus Christ was restored fully and completely.

Asking questions, free from censorship..... is EMPOWERING. When the mind is free from twi-censorship.... questions flow freely. In my opinion, one begins to realize how many more questions he/she has pent up inside the crevices of this "renewed mind." LOL. A healthy mind is a questioning mind. Did wierwille and company really think that we would "stay on the pfal-farm" a lifetime.... repeating its mantra as an invocation to this mythical, pfal-god? How insane is THAT? Only a narcissist could ever imagine concluding such a scenario for his followers. Same goes for all of their "advanced" study classes. Most all of these classes have been redone or tweaked over the years and "The Way Tree" class was completely discarded. Thank you Johnnie Townsend for that class... NOT. As so many posters have said.... such drumbeating of repetition is insanity. Some question wierwille/twi only to a certain point.... and then stop. That's NOT empowering, that's not freedom. They are STILL tethered to certain aspects of twi's conditioning. It doesn't matter if they exit twi or not.... they are still way-brained by indoctrination. Asking questions, free from censorship..... is EMPOWERING. Try it. You'll like it.

You couldn't have said it better yourself. Amen. Even if PFAL claimed, explicitly or implicitly, to be God-breathed, the claim wouldn't make it so.

Keying off of Nathan_Jr's post from the Absent Christ? thread. I wanted to hash this one out for a few minutes from my own experiences. Ok, rewind back to 1996 and I was a tough young thug running the streets of NYC. Completely out of control and rife with alcoholism and substance abuse problems, depression, anxiety and the like. And...I was witnessed to, yes proselytized by a band mate in a music group I played lead guitar in at the time. Well, anyway, I latched onto the Bible like it was my lifeline, and it was, and still is for that matter. So as I took the classes and climbed my way through the ranks of classes, various nametags, ministry programs, way corps and the like I really thought I was fine. Let me explain. I quit drinking for a period of time when I got involved with the way international. All my other psycho behaviors pretty much went out the window and I thought I was a "new man"....I applied the law of believing as taught by the way international, I directed my thoughts and energies into many positive directions....and I thought that handled all my previous problems because the way international said it was handled. All my answers were coming through the classes and such...or so I thought. Well, fast forward a good 12 years from 96 and I was hitting the exit from the way international as fast as I could get my behind out of new knoxville. I still thought I was fine...well...I wasnt...I had started drinking socially several years before 2008 and had a bottle firmly in hand in 2008. It was my friend, that bottle was my precious. Now, nit wits in TWI world like to think that all these problems returned to me because I had left the way ministry and violated my salt covenant because I left the way corps. Complete bull$h!t. So after dang near drinking myself to death I turned to Christ. No ministry, no outside direction from anyone. Just me and Jesus Christ. That was the beginning of my delieverance. Ive since come to realize that you can't take mental issues, substance abuse, alcoholism and the like and "confess them all away." No amount of positive thinking will do the trick. It wasnt until I did 16 weeks of counselling that I really began to understand what my problems were and how to unravel them. First off, I recognize that I am an alcoholic and as such have a medical condition where I cannot tolerate alcohol...period. Second off, I came to realize that I refused to accept loss. The law of believing would not allow me to accept loss because that would be a negative confesssion....and I was oh so strong in my believing ya know...except i wasnt..I digress... Thirdly, I had some serious depression and anxiety issues that never really left but were ignored and swept under the rug. Depression is a spirit according to the way international and I would never go for help in the way international because I didnt want to be labelled posessed.... Alright...a lot of words to get to my point: The way international is completely unqualified to help anyone with their hodge podge, cobbled together, unbiblical doctrines. You cant ignore major medical problems such as alcoholism or mental issues such as depression...or even psychotic anger, (which I am still prone to and am still fighting to over come) and call that deliverance. Yey that's exactly what the way international taught me to do. By turning to Christ I have slowly but surely been working out my own salvation with respect and awe! Im still a work in progress, but for the longest time in my life to date I am completely sober and have a really good life. The Lord has restored what the locust ate and then some. For anyone considering the way international as a solution to your problems....RUN! Run straight to God and Christ. Or just run to get the heck out of the way before real damage is done. My problems festered under a fake smile and 3 piece suit with multiple nametags. You cannot ignore your problems and confess them away. That's magickal thinking and it nearly cost me my life. By the way, God's Word has never returned void in my life. God had his hand on my life the entire time and eventually led me to safety and deliverance and complete peace. The way international gets NO credit. But God never left my side and my life is in the Lord's hands...quite literally.

Yes, agreed. I don't know how to prove it other than believing faith and seeing those results (if/when) they came, and the results are the proof. If there are no results, there is no proof. Now that is faith. Also, we have no proof of the hereafter... but that is Hope.

I will posit that for a person to break the chains of waybrain in their lives, they will need to look at the bible with new eyes, no longer from the framework of parsing the meanings of greek or aramaic words, no longer from the framework of fundamentalist private interpretation (or even Wierwille's interpretation) of what might be God's true meaning.

Frankly, as chockfull's comment suggests, Wierwille's fraudulent take on Christian community, which is really the bottom line of the Way Corps(e), transformed participants and those said participants successfully proselytized into something other than those people's true selves.

The generally accepted elements of emotional intelligence are: 1. Self Awareness 2. Awareness of Others TWI systematized doctrinal error in scriptures to erode away strength in each of those areas crucial for interaction and survival in the real world. Self Awareness - any kind of cogniscence of your own moral barometer is erased by “righteousness” and “believing” Awareness of Others - an isolationist view is taught and lived - a view where not only all other religions are devil possessed (extreme superstition) but so are all the heads of the Christian denominations and the Popes. Some of this is hidden until the Adv Class where people have 3 yrs of immersion into cult doctrine. As a result extreme obedience and conformity is demanded and expected unquestioned. This process like the Stanford prison experiment transforms people into frames of thinking rather quickly and isolated them in to a small society that is very controlling. Time is consumed with multiple meetings and outreach and undershepherding and the follower is swallowed up quickly in the process. Each stage leads to the next higher level commitment. True Christianity is free and grassroots. Some churches seem closer to those roots others drift more towards other interests like prosperity gospel. TWI is 100 percent it’s own isolated cult never interacting with the other 99.9999 % of Christianity. In direct contrast to this Jesus Christ spoke of believing in him that “my yoke is easy and my burden is light”. Christ bore the heavy burden and yoke of the law and judgement and gave his life so we don’t have to carry it. Don’t take it back on your own back as some kind of martyr and live in chains.

I saw this bumper sticker today: "A closed mind is a wonderful thing to lose."

tremendous post, Charity! funny how TWI messed with my self-confidence and in a twofold effect - I felt like I had a shallow or underdeveloped relationship with Jesus Christ because I wasn't spiritual enough. But all that’s changed now. By cutting out the middleman of TWI , I decide what I should study, pray about…and even just how to pray. and in general categories for me frequenting Grease Spot Cafe helped me escape the us-versus-them mentality of TWI. I tend to be more open minded when listening to others - not just on GSC but listening to other viewpoints on TV .

This phrasing is a bit unclear to me. Was it caused by a typo or something? edit: Not the $h!t part. I get that.

What I understand now is there were many books circulating among the early Church. Being widely circulated was one criteria to become canon. This is where TWI and "truth vs tradition" nonsense comes in to confuse matters. There was a body of people with traditions and practices who could look at a book and say, "yes, this follows what we are already doing" . . . or not. The Bible doesn't stand alone, tradition is necessary and part of its making. I think a cohesive group is more likely to know if something is sacred to them than the thing itself would know.

He breathed the breath of life in man's nostrils and yet we became corrupted. I feel it's an unrealistic expectation to think the Bible is perfect because its inspired of God through imperfect beings, us. 2 Timothy 2:16,17 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some Wierwille has cobbled books together based on profane and vain babblings such as the law of believing, etc. That people's trust in God/scripture is overthrown should be no surprise.

Yeah, that's the general idea behind the Way version. In the PFAL class, VPW says "God had a purpose for everything he said...where He said it, when He said it, how he said it, yada, yada, yada." So then why are there errors and contradictions? Yeah, I know, "they only APPEAR to be errors and contradictions." Well, if he had the power and ability to breath something pure, why did He allow mankind's fallibility to contaminate the finished product? Likewise with PFAL. If it was God Breathed, why did He allow such simple things as geography errors to enter the final text?

There is no basis for rejecting PFAL as God-breathed that does not apply equally to scriptures that have been considered God-breathed since there was a canon. This statement claims PFAL was God-breathed. That is out of left field. (There's a certain poster who may think this, and that motivation appears based on an attachment to VPW - is this statement a personal attack on another poster?) "apply equally" - We're taking an out of left field statement about an esoteric class and saying this also applies to a major text in the development human history. "that have been considered God-breathed since there was canon" - The Bible was not written. Canon was compiled. The history of the canon begins with the church see a need among the people due to various heresies popping up. Are we going back to "like it hasn't been known since the 3rd or 4th century? Did they make a statement saying "this is God-breathed?" - That evidence should be presented, or would be helpful. They would be the people to consult. God-Breathed can easily change meanings in that one sentence. Not that the meaning is established in the first place. Are we saying the early church was run by malignant narcissists as a whole? PFAL was an attempt to ride the coattails of Christianity, not support it. Snow on the gas pumps story screams self serving. "look at me I'm spAcial" Uninspiring. There's no revisionist history needed, it speaks for itself. The story of Christ? Factual or not doesn't matter. Hardly narcissistic. The mechanics of that story are repeated in other stories throughout time. Love, sacrifice and I'm a sure a lot of other matters. Ideas that spread among the bottom tiers of society . . . those without power saw something in it. Eventually those with power had to acknowledge it. The phrase sounds like click-bait. So, click click click click click click

So I just asked ChatGPT if the Way International fits Steven Hassan’s BITE model. I don’t have any more photo capacity to upload the response but it would be a pretty easy exercise for a reader to duplicate. The response involves some caveats like check it out for yourself and YMMV type of statements, but then affirms that TWI controls behavior, information, thought and emotional control. And gives examples. Sorry TWI - even artificial intelligence agrees you function like a cult.

Hey, Mr. B. I think the difficulty here is that your posts are sometimes a bit more open ended than some people would like them to be. People don't generally like to be left to draw their own conclusions. I mean, that's cool with art and philosophy and sometimes these discussions do evolve in those directions. Personally, I usually see where you're headed, but I'm not everybody. I'm just me. So, I guess what I'm saying is that, if you try to point the reader to an intended conclusion, it might help. OK. Fire away. I'm ducking for cover now.

all our hearts, soul, mind and strength (that covers with all our hearts, soul, mind and strength I think you're right - vp probably did teach Mark 12:30 but by not teaching that we were to love Jesus Christ in the same manner, I think they left out an imperative part of God's will when teaching about it in pfal. with all our heart - 2588 kardía – heart; the center and seat of spiritual life, "the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavors" with all our soul - psuché: breath, the soul (from psyxō, "to breathe, blow" which is the root of the English words "psyche," "psychology") – soul (psyche); a person's distinct identity (unique personhood), i.e. individual personality. with all our mind - 1271 diánoia (from 1223 /diá, "thoroughly, from side-to-side," which intensifies 3539 /noiéō, "to use the mind," from 3563 /noús, "mind") – properly, movement from one side (of an issue) to the other to reach balanced-conclusions; full-orbed reasoning (= critical thinking), i.e. dialectical thinking that literally reaches "across to the other side" (of a matter). with all our strength - 479 ischus: strength, might (from the Gk root is, "force" and 2192/exō, "have") – properly, force to overcoming immediate resistance.

I was the most miserable and meanest when I was drinking because as an alcoholic I couldn't stop. I knew how wrong I was but lacked the fortitude to quit drinking because I liked it too much. My rock bottom caused enough pain to hate the outcome more than I loved the poison. Consider wierwille in the same light....