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I agree with So_Crates when he said "Here's a wild idea: why don't YOU become meek and I'll tell you about all the fruit in my life since I stopped making PLAF the center of my life." There have been so many testimonies from posters of how their lives have improved spiritually, mentally, financially, etc. after leaving and recovering from twi. Either you are skipping over them because they make you feel too uncomfortable or you can't allow yourself to believe they're true - and maybe there are other unknown reasons for your doing so. The point is that although you may miss the impact of their testimonies, many others like myself, did not.

A) On lots of threads, lots of ex-twi have talked about how much better their lives have been since twi, and sometimes about how God's given them results since twi. Mike has missed all of that- probably for the same reason a thief cannot find a policeman. B) I don't need specifics of Mike's testimony, since he's already given me the biggest detail. In spite of a recent attempt to spin-doctor it, Mike started a thread with the goal of answering the question "Why don't we see miracles and lots of prayers answered anymore?" If it was a thread where the opening post was "actually, we see EVEN MORE", then that would be different. So, no, he's got squat. C) Mike's been trying to claim that Session 1 of pfal- and the books adapting it- didn't have vpw bring up material abundance and promise material abundance... despite the fact that they do, very obviously and blatantly. Someone's looking to LOWER THE BAR OF EXPECTATIONS. So, what's the complete picture? Lots of people have happiness, some prosperity, and answers to prayers- and Mike insists they don't. Mike's got little of those- and insists on getting cagey in discussing them. Where others have freely given testimony, he's said we have to earn his testimony- which, again, means he's got squat, otherwise he's be waving it around as proof his doctrine isn't all platitudes, smoke and mirrors. Mike's trying to say his alleged "pfal" doctrine isn't supposed to guarantee MATERIAL ABUNDANCE (in spite of insinuating exactly that all over Session 1)- because Mike doesn't have it and can't guarantee it despite himself. What's next- the holy Amway?

Yes. All of TWI Will pretty much interpret 1 Timothy 4:1 as proof that those of us here on GSC have fallen prey to “seducing spirits and doctrines of devils”. They take the first part of the verse as proof we have departed from the “faith” by defining that usage of “faith” as “family faith” and equate that with being an active TWI follower. The reality of the situation is that TWI has 3 fingers pointing back at themselves because the true “doctrine of devils” lies right within PFAL re defining family faith and the body of Christ as terms that are correlated to active involvement in “the ministry”. The ministry is the Word and the Word is the ministry doncha know. PFAL is rife with doctrines of devils. #145 - I’m going to start numbering every time I refute an ad hominem attack with truth and logic.

By the words Mike used above, I think he is believing that we have problems with a certain devil spirit. OldSkool mentioned something to this effect in a recent post of his. I once stumbled across an old thread titled Are Grease Spotters "Possessed?" There were some pretty humorous comments I enjoyed reading.

What I do here is straighten out the humongous pile of bullshonta that appears after your attempts to “straighten out errors”. Usually it’s some new abstract theory about the legitimacy of Plaffy that helps you regurgitate dead collaterals. I am not “over the edge n darkness”. But that reminds me. Usually along with shoveling bullshonta from you I always need to refute some kind of unfounded accusation that involves an ad hominem attack on my and others characters. The only gotcha involved here already sunk it’s hooks in you 30 plus years ago.

I have had different mindsets when I've replied to Mike since being on GSC. It's like a pendulum where I swing back and forth between extremes and sometimes I'm more in the middle. At times I know my posts are pure emotional reactions to what he had written and other times, I'm a lot more contemplative in my word choice. There's also the spiritual side where Christ might have been guiding me as to what to say. Because I have these metal balls banging back and forth in my brain and because this is an open forum, I think it's fair to let posters relate to Mike in whatever way they choose, within rules of course . In Mike's case, years of striking at a rock has produced little to nothing, but who knows, maybe one day Christ will cause water to flow out of it (I've been reading Exodus 17 ). I'm not moralizing here, I just like there to be peace and quiet like in "What about Bob?" Dr. Leo Marvin: I want some peace and quiet! Bob Wiley: Well, I'll be quiet. Siggy: I'll be peace! A lot of wisdom in that movie .

Same. I should perhaps find common ground first but I generally only "flex, shout, yell, get angry" when I see that an individual is crossing boundaries and others let it slide. I guess that's how I saw him on this site. I do the same thing in my neighborhood for the record. Some neighbor continually disrespects me, my family, or my property then I see them as already crossing my boundaries so I need to make them known. I do it clearly so there is no confusion where I stand. Cross my boundary again and you will have to deal with me. I'm not saying it's right, but it is for me. I lose sleep when I see others sit back and let someone step over boundaries. But when I make an foot of myself to set them, I don't lose a wink of sleep. I just lose the respect of those around me, which I've finally learned to not gaf about.

Just go read back any post that I quoted you in. Every one where I refute ad hominem attacks and correct your statement is an ample example. No I’m not going to repeat your bs accusations again here and give you more traction and visibility. You mask generic statements regarding all of us on this site who participate while specifically talking to one person. I mean you have OS last post with a visual depiction of your ad hominem attack. No you can’t get out of your mouth writing checks you’re behind can’t cash by saying your general statements were really only to one person not me. Your number labels don’t really mean much to me. There were 20 years of some kind of TWI before your viewpoint labeled 1. And like extreme dispensationalism I don’t agree with your “administration” divisions. It is all “TWI Cult” regardless of your meaningless generational distinctions. The only difference was in which Pharisee was in charge. Every one of them taught the same doctrinal errors which I have amply pointed out. Ex: Family faith is not active TWI involvement. Faith / household is isolationist. Doctrinal error leading to practical error - the eye saying to the hand I have no need of thee. All leading to the extreme control of others by zealous few who take no accountability or direction from anyone.

Mike compartimentalizes as well as rationalizes to no end. He speaks of VPW's old man nature as if it's seperate from the man himself. Wierwille's job is the same as any Christian, crucify or put to death the old man with his deeds and walk in newness of life, the new man, etc. Be led of the Spirit. Had wierwille lived a virtous life we wouldnt have a GS cafe. Ill say it again for those in the back: Church leaders, Reverends, clergy, pastors, whatever title you wanna choos all have the responsibility to set the example of what they teach by how they live. The exmaple wierwille set was one of satisfying the flesh: living on donations, excess drinking/drunkeness, molesting and seducing young women as well as married women all the while he had his own wife, stole most all of his materials from others, etc. Mike acts like its our fault because we noticed.

Doctrine is not fruit. Beleeef is not Truth.

Thanks OldSkool - you brought up so many poignant points and truths about twi and their hold on people. One can see from your post how great our deliverance was once leaving this cult.

Mike is his own case study on how one can expect people from the way international to respond when they are faced with civil disagreement. I remember well what it was like to be so dang convinced that I am absolutely 100% correct on most things to do with the Bible, and by golly, the way international provided air tight "research"...yeah...they call it proven ministry research indicating that the topics are above question. Proven ministry research is considered absolute truth. Such an arrogant position. So typically, and we see it with mike, when one debates with someone blinded by wierwille-ism they almost always resort to bullying tactic, (ad-hominem attacks, passive agressive insults, even loud and boisterous yelling and screaming like a spoiled child, etc) if they can't dominate the conversation and browbeat those they debate with into submission. So when confronted with the illogic and gaping holes in wierwille's materials they come to a crossroads: give in to the cognitive dissonance caused by wierwille's doctrines and what the Bible actually teaches and run like h377 back to wierwille's doctrines or they can actually turn aside and consider other's points of view. Should this honest route be chosen then they would do as the Bereans and search the scriptures daily whether these things are so. Mike, et al., typically choose the run to wierwille route and resort to all sorts of slanderous insults, playing the victim, etc. Why the animosity? Because they are caught in an us verses them mentality that the way international builds into their adherants. Without the us verses them schtik the wierwille's entire story falls apart on yet another front....I mean it's allready falllen apart on so many angles, I guess another set of stress fractures won't hurt anything. Mike's word choices and several posts he put up today absolutely reek with an attitude of superiority and it's obvious he thinks everone who posts here is posessed, living in outer darkness, or whatever imagined scary scenario exists outside of the way international. Cult mentality, then they have their own jargon and way speak that makes little sense outside of a home fellowship where most people throw way speak around to each other as if actually makes any sense to begin with. Thank the Lord Jesus Christ that he has delivered me from the way international and their toxic doctrines that hide Christ and elevate a drunken, narcissistic, idol that they choose instead of Christ.

I really like how you spoke about the ocean. Being in or nearby any body of water has been a soothing place for me. Your connecting it to what truth is was notable. And that's why I find it a problem being too focused on just one thing like a Bible class (pfal) or what one person says about the Bible (collaterals) or in looking at scriptures through the lens of what one man taught (vp) - it is so confining when one truly wants to understand how immense God is.

Isn't the truth rather that you don't know how to tell a coherent story?

That is why when I am accusing others I do it Magneto style. All fingers pointing outward in the direction of my target – less chance of self-inflicted wounds

You shouldn’t tell us. You should go preach to the tree stumps in your back yard like your father in the Word supposedly did.

Yes for sure. My life is way better off without TWI. I was pulled in as a youth without a fully developed mature brain, had two decades of my young life filled with having two jobs and no days off helping to advance Pharisees number charts, and got fed up and put my foot down. Now I have a career, a home with a mortgage, peace in marriage, and a great family with kids doing well and not jumping in front of trains like others who stayed in. And hobbies with time for them. And rich community connections that span churches, denominations, and cultures. I don’t have a title though. Funny how false titles no longer hold their appeal. I don’t have any molten metal idols around me either. It is a lot easier ignoring the ad hominem attacks of a window cleaner philosopher when you know what your life has with respect to positive godly fruit.

No, just wondering why you even bother preaching if you don't want to give a testimonial. Your gotcha excuse not only shows your believing, but shows how dumb you think your audience is.

In other words, you got nothing.

Okie Dokie, Raf! Easy one's from now on!

nope

l You claim there's fruit in your life. Once again you use the abstract (like all that supposed good Saint Vic was supposed to do). How about some specifics? Considering you claim we have piddly replacements, I would assume you have oodles of examples of fruit in your life. Edited 30 minutes ago by So_crates To answer Mike's questions - 1. I don't think anyone expects anything of you. Reason wasn't involved when you fixed your beleeef in victor paul wierwille, reason won't get you out of it. This seems obvious, self-evident. 2. I'm not sure anyone is offering a replacement beleeef. I don't see any evangelizing or proselytizing here. I see a tremendously diverse bunch with at least one thing in common.

Hi Rocky, You recently wrote the following about Mike in your post to T-Bone Then again, perhaps someday YOU will understand there's NFW you're going to get through Mike's impenetrable confirmation bias. IF you want to address the imagined lurkers, you might consider a different strategy than just being tossed about with every wind of Mike's bull shonta You and I once traded some posts about how you claimed OldSkool was putting Mike in a box by saying he "will never get it." You shared with me about Dale Carnegie's teaching that we should give people a reputation to live up to. You also sent me the post where you wrote about not placing stumbling blocks in front of our brothers and sisters. After reading these two suggestions, I later apologized to Mike about once again putting him in a box. Seeing your support of Mike in the quotes above, I'm wondering why you replied to T-Bone's post to Mike as quoted in blue above?

How will I know your will, if I can't read your words? Simple math, baby. Take a break. Take a nap. Do it all while standing, of course. That way no one gets missed. See? Fresh salad is always being served. Just a tremendous kernel! Hey, I didn't write the book, so I know how you feel, and I can't do this alone. Some call it parallel. Some call it balanced. I call it a kaiser blade. SIMPLE!

"You just stand, Baby! Don't budge."

Though that is objectively true, that's not what he's saying. Not REALLY. It's a more nuanced point. It's not about YOU. Not REALLY. That you won't or can't even understand what I'm saying, and that I am even attempting to explain it, well, that's REALLY what it's about. *Here's a a recent TIP for your cookie jar: To/for parallel to the ablative case vertically aligned to the vocative case. BOOM! No one gets missed.

Late 40s with teenaged kids. Bolsh may come across as uneducated on GSC for one reason or another but is quite educated. So, he is a personal friend of mine and Ive known him since 2001 at least. He's had a rough go of it and that shows through at times. I don't agree with his assessment of GSC and told him as much, but I guess he has some agenda or another to ruing GSC, so be it. He will have to take a number and wait in line on that note.