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I believe this exchange of yours and mine on this subject starkly (or not?) illustrates and illuminates the inherent limitation of communication without access to each other's non-verbal cues. i.e tone of voice, inflection, facial expressions etc. I only point this out for your readers and mine (likely only on this topic/thread) to hold in mind that we're inherently not contradicting each other or criticizing each other or otherwise INTENDING to cause any "negative" emotion. If I could devise a way for us to more fully communicate on GSC or any other online print only forum in ways that would be less likely to cause misunderstandings and be more likely to foster compassion and forgiveness... well, maybe I'd be able to get rich. Then again, that wouldn't be my goal/objective anyway.

100 percent. I haven’t talked to the splinter moglets directly. But that bath water stinks of stolen BS and despair! Which is probably why I haven’t talked to the splinter moglets directly. That is the stupidest damn statement anyway. Who here has actually bathed one of your children, but instead of using clean water you recycled it? Thats exactly what joining a splinter would be like.

Hey, no doubt. I stated what I did not at you but to verify the authenticity of my statement with names of groups and also with the names of those who made the statements for clarity for our multitude of lurkers. I hold them no ill will and believe they meant well, but whats that saying...sincerity is no...gaurantee...o...of....truth...or something like that...

I dont know about you being a troll or not and dont really care. However, there is a simple solution to said problem of former TWI leaders when it comes to wierwille and his issues. Honesty. Just admit the man was a con and some of the things he taught are true and Biblical. Repudiate the lies and distance oneself from his sins. Its not feasible to expect everyone to sit around in sack cloth and ashes in memory of wierwille. Of the three offshoots mentioned STFI, TLTF, and CFF all three groups top leaders were the ones who told me to forgive and forget wierwille's sins and dont throw out the baby with the bath water. I dont know if these guys take notes from each other, or share the same playbook. Their last names were Gallagher, Lynn, and Guigou. All said the same thing to me. My healing depended on forgiving the way international and those who wronged me. And again, utter BS. My healing depended on my repentance and asking forgiveness for myself for being involved with a false prophet and spreading his lies. Thats where my freedom came from. Ive long since forgiven all things TWI and it made little difference in my day to day life. What made all the difference was accepting peace with my creator. God almighty, which many of you now say doesnt exist.

When I now think back on the ministry leader who approached me with twi's version of approving sexual sin, a person who has never asked me for forgiveness and a person who went on doing the same with another female in the fellowship, this thread hits home for me. When I look at Eph 4:22-23, "That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." as well as verses 31-32, "Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.", these are my thoughts. - Bitterness, wrath, anger, clamour, evil speaking and all malice are of the old man which is corrupt because of its sin nature. With these, I can overcome by way of my personal relationship with God and with the power of the new man (i.e., Christ) dwelling in me which after God (in his likeness) is created in righteousness and true holiness. Also, 2 Cor 1:3 says our God is the God of all comfort and knowing Him brings me healing as well. - Being kind and tenderhearted are fruits of the spirit and are what we are told to think on according to Phil 4:8, "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. - Forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you is not without a condition according to 1 John 1:9 which is to first confess your sin/wrongdoing. Concerning my experience with this leader, I am healed of the effects of it because of God and should he ever reach out and asks for forgiveness, I will forgive him.

Allow me to say this, even though Chockfull has proclaimed to the internet I have no right to express myself because of my non belief in God, thus I am just trolling along on GSC. Any @sshat leader who was in TWI and is currently operating an offshoot group, should immediately close up shop until they condemn the actions of VPW. Furthermore, any dense jackfoot former follower of VPW, especially those who have held the mantle of leadership, must immediately prostrate themselves before “somebody” and beg forgiveness. And especially, all those disingenous jackfoot trolls, such as myself, must immediatelly surrender their license to operate a PC, to the internet policing commission, until they can demonstrate a clear understanding that there is a loving God.

I may be proven wrong on this, and it's something new for me that I have not considered before, but I do believe forgiveness always follows a confession of wrongdoing. This is also seen in the parable of the prodigal son. Looking at the verses above in light of Matt 18:23-35 (which I quoted in full in my previous post), it says: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not everyone his brother their trespasses. The king had compassion and pity on his servant after the servant requested more time to pay his monetary debt because he was unable to do so at the time. The fact that the servant did not deny he owed the money or blamed the king for his owing this money is important here. Plus, the sincerity of the servant's words has to be implied here to make this a righteous parable Jesus was telling. When we do not forgive someone who is sincerely admitting their wrong, this angers God because we are not fully appreciating the forgiveness he gives us by way of his son's sacrifice on the cross.

And thats true as can be...but it is not obligatory so fake churches based on the image of wierwille can continue to bilk money from people. Context. For offshoot groups "forgiving wierwille" and other non-penitent wierwille minions equates to forgetting the abuses and false doctrines so the cycle can continue. Not the cycle of sexual abuse started by wierwille on his congregation but the cycle of victimized parishinors caught in the same cycle of sitting in this false prophets shadow, soaking in wierwilleian false doctrines, and giving their hard earned money to corrupt organizations based on this man. I have a picture of an offshoot practicing forgiveness as it relates to coninuing under wierwilles shadow and false doctrines...this manner of forgiveness is necessary so people are free to continue follow wierwille's doctrines in the offshoot of their choosing...

I said I had read an article and the person who wrote the article said he had to forgive his wrongdoers so he was able to move on with his life. This statement said nothing about God.

For the record, I wasn't implying anything about your take on the groups. I believed and believe you. I was only putting my point/understanding in the context of my experience. Clearly those spin off groups, IMO, are parasites.

I can say authoratatively from my own personal experiences with all three groups I mentioned that they all preached this false forgiveness doctrine they need to prop up wierwille and keep the gravy train chugging along. Perhaps require is a bit too strong of a word in this case. But all three groups hit me with the same drivel. Its likely their defacto sales pitch to try and snag defecting way corp.

There are ways God can heal us of emotional pain and things we can do when working things out so we can "move forward," but requiring forgiveness of an unrepented offender is not one of them. Thanks again OldSkool for not beating around the bush on this idea.

Good lord, is that Craig? His vaunted golden hair has slipped down to his chin, and gone grey? Still got the scowl, though.