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Perhaps this explains everything.. looking for.. kids under twenty five years old.. why? You have no use for older, experienced individuals? maybe you are "witnessing"? I know some kids under twenty five.. you can't have them.. sowey.. they are smarter than the average "witnesser".. even without my personal influence.. Most "kids" under twenty five still have all of their teeth.. is that it? you've learned your master's lessons, well.. I know one of them.. who abandoned your kind of nonsense.. and found the Roman Catholic faith more palatable, than what you have to offer..

My wayfer folks taught me if I want to buy a house I should wait for some of our relatives to die. The inherited money they leave would help to not go into debt and stay right with God. They did not have any other ideas. It's good to give your children goals and nice things to look forward to, right?

And to think back to the 70's when Dr Cyclops was teaching in rez that one of the proofs that Islam is bad is that they won't let people have any debt including a mortgage...went on and on about inhibiting people's ability to prosper - and I do mean went on and on and freaking on... What's next? L(nder the idiot, the complete red-azzed baboon disguised as a human, the piece of animal defecation starts to declare fatwahs on GSCers? Edited for this: I am running up debt so my kids can be in good universities. Guess what TWIts? If you don't like my debt on behalf of my childrens' futures feel free to take your wuss version of god and your self-centered control the planet doctrine, place them carefully in a tampon applicator and insert down your throat. Oh one more thing TWIts - god is not first in my life - my children are first - choking yet? ...and to think that lunatic organization once ordained me...any god I would worship doesn't need my money, my hands (god has no hands and all that rot), my children, nor even my allegiance. For you TWIts that put your children in the second tier, having them lose on behalf of your religious nose snot - may you cop lung fungus for withholding from your children.

So what are you REALLY producing.. child warriors.. they look innocent and all. But they are vacuous souls..

This is getting annoying ie. lets have a conversation -- then leave everyone hanging and 'skip town' look Caleb-- you arent some exception to the rule--we are all very busy--if you are going to stick to your word and represent your org as you said that you would then start participating and answering. If you are just another untrustable run of the mill BS'er ---well----we are already getting that message by your disappearance and lack of honest communication with us Its not too late to redeem yourself but your stock in my eyes is going down every passing day that you blow us off---- One thing that I can say at this point is that your silence and absence speaks as loudly as your words, even more so, and so far represents the core of the organization you graduated from very aptly. Promises promises and when it comes to owning up---zilch So far you represent them well

And spoil everyone's fun? He is a young whippersnapper who doesn't know sh!t from shinola. You know, like most of us when we were his age, only most of us didn't know it then, either. But that's different - well, at least for some of us. Linda Z, you are entirely too rational at times. I love it, but it'll cause your "reputation" to suffer.

Rummy - you know I can dish it back with the best of them. In this case I believe the young man was being flippant - nothing more. I feel the same as you about someone coming to my house acting that way, but this is a "public" place, and as such I believe it's best to diffuse rather than respond in kind.

I think this describes a lot of the situation: http://bible.cc/2_chronicles/13-7.htm Jeroboam figured out he had no need of Solomon, or of Solomon's son either.. but don't inflate your ego too much.. you are by no means a Solomon, or Rehoboam.. but you'd be surprised how small a hill of beans people will fight over..

Why else do you think old grampa vicster the first ran crying to geero in scotland? I think PART of the story is true. In his dying days, he saw the political maneuvering, the subtle behind the scenes negotiations.. in short, his *men* (if one could call it that) were actually growing up, to be just like him.. and he was POWERLESS to seize the reins again. So off he went, to what he perceived as the strongest *man(?)* in the "ministry"..to get things "in line" again.. and his *men*, along with geero, ended up carving up *his* ministry, actually whole groups of PEOPLE, like a thanksgiving turkey.. your day will come, bub..if it lasts that long.. I hope you grow eyes in the back of your head..

and this is why your organization won't last. Its built on weakness. In my opinion, also a sickness. Laziness.. Proverbs 24:10 So you can't muster up enough strength to bring about a "revival" of old ministry "values".. so what to do? Find a group of "young men and women" who will take up the cause, FOR you..offer them the moon, of course with a few conditions.. while you stay safe, hole up in the mississippi swamp, barking orders from behind the lines.. eventually, they will grow up, and figure out they have no need for you.. and they will strip you dry.. if you survive that long.. you shoulda just gone back to school, bub..

Next question. What are you going to do in twenty, thirty years, when your "staff" and "volunteers" are beginning to show the wear of age? Sure, pa, mac and a few will get a few "benefits".. without question or explanation. Or it will be something like, "we owe it.. they sacrificed their lives.. and the adversary attacked.. it's da debil's fault.." and that WILL be the spin, if they get some horrid disease, or God forbid, cancer.. will you merely hide these "issues" from the followers? I suggest history will repeat itself. You've got a doctrine which supposedly guarantees success.. a "law" that "works" for saint and sinner alike.. mathematical exactness and all. what will you do when things go "wrong"?

The thing about all of this.. there is no functional "church" to bring these issues up with. It's "loosely" affiliated with likely a half a dozen offshoots.. they must think *they* are *the church* or something like that.. if you "counselled" the *young man* (or rather, the aging morons around him) to just "follow his heart, if gawd called you to do this nonsense, by all means, go for it.." I don't want anything to do with you. You are for the lack of better words with my understanding.. "nuts".. if you are just a bystander and merely advertise his little crock of an "adventure" without some kind of honest inquiry, the same words are for you.. sorry, you're not God. I don't answer to you.. didn't you see the results of this kind of effin moronic nonsense the first time around?

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I'll say this.. you have a rough row to hoe.. infinitely harder than the one I had as a WOW.. *good luck*.. heh

I didn't say you did now, did I? Plus I was responding to Tzaia's post. Thank you.

I believe they think its a banquet they're putting on over there.. but its like putting on a "feast" of small rodent type of meat.. you need far more than one small rodent to make a meal for even one.. need at least a dozen to make a pan full..

and when they crawl out of the huts or tents (description due to lack of response to earlier question) in the early spring, will they proudly proclaim that herr mini-itty-bitty mogster saved them from yet another conspiratorial government takeover? Worked for vic I.. at least two times.. another question.. did the "extreme" training ever involve some kind of extended "firearm safety" course? and of the four "graduates" of the program.. would you shoot on sight any advancing "hordes" to protect the honor of the "great manogawds" hill of turnips, potatoes and other stored goods? with the "training" and "keeping the troops in line" with austere rules, this whole scenario makes perfect sense to me..

Welcome to the Cafe. I have a few questions.. The sowers group appears to have an almost identical appearance to the old time way corps. how is this program any different? What kind of safeguards were put in place to protect student from teacher? The students appeared to have to walk a rather narrow line of "ethics".. and violation of even any unwritten mandate results in the possibility of immediate expulsion, and/or termination of the program. That describes the way corps experience.. how different here? How many times were you threatened to be sent home, or if the group didn't "muster up", that the program would be terminated? How many students actually WERE sent away? The "teachers" APPEAR to have the power over students like Almighty God. Their authority is final, their judgement summary. What RULES, if any, did they have to abide by? Were you ever asked (tantamount to a command) to perform any hazardous or dangerous activity as part of the program? Was anyone harmed by performing program activities? If so, what action was taken? What kind of housing was provided? Was it suitable, or did one just live in a tent for nine months? What were the classes (if any) that you participated in? If any, were they old pfal.. old ministry classes.. or cff materials.. or other offshoot materials? Who actually subsidizes the program? i.e. who supports it? Some offshoot ministry, or does it stand on its own two feet? Did "special teachers" from certain offshoots come in to give presentations and teachings from other groups? If so, what did they present, who were they.. where were they from? Does being a graduate of the program give one special assignments, or privileges, over others? As a graduate, what does one actually DO? Run a "fellowship"? Do you owe your very life to the "ministry that taught you the word"? Will "fellowships" funnel money ("abundant sharing") to the mother group? well.. I'll stop with these few.. I asked someone "in the know" once, and didn't get much response.. it might take a while. Don't feel rushed to answer them all at once..

and the claim is that they can re-make the wheel with sub-standard resources.. tired, worn out, unqualified and/or unemployed"teachers" whose only claim to fame: they were "trained" or ordained by the vicster the grifter. Apparently someone there is charismatic enough to round up a few volunteers..

sooo.. no thanks to you or your "extreme" training.. a few probably will "graduate" from your mighty program.. what does this "confer" on said graduates? The "conferring" committee.. who is it? Who are they? some young punk.. with a black gown and white tassel conferring what, and on the authority of what? or the guy who takes main stage with ordination papers issued by "saint" vic.. it's at the least, pathetic. At the worst, troubling, and sick.. what can the inductees actually DO with their little pieces of papers.. take more of your classes?

I know.. twelve to twenty votes.. pretty small spit in the bucket, in the greater scheme of things.. but it would be interesting to see the votes.. I would bet they are all the same..

The sad thing is the kid probably regards me as an enemy.. when I'm anything but.. just another "critic".. too bad.. the current "advisors" that surround him would probably say "go for it, BE gawd.."

Even before Vpw died,"One of a kind",LCM, said to this effect,I doubt there ever will arise another like him. So the myth was around when vper was alive and well,after all how many people hear from god outloud? "Hey vic.I need ya to shut down this party,she is gon na rain!"Vic says to the group,"father told me she is a go na rain." Ohhs and ahhs from the group,"He is hot tonite."

I wonder if the mental health providers have ever considered a class action lawsuit against these hacks.. really.. I mean.. who's helping to pick up the pieces after these groups are often done with what initially seemed to be normal, ordinary, healthy people? it's not der vey, except for a couple of court judgments against them for maybe, three individuals..

took me a minute to get that reference.. heheh. makes me wonder though.. how did that "prophecy" exactly go? That der ministry, or word would live as long as a vierville offspring "stood"? either way, in PRACTICE, it would make those of the *royal* seed a SAVIOR, or SAVIORS, would it not? maybe that's what they mean by "those charged with oversight'.. perhaps they really believe the madman's prophecy. "chosen ones" messiahs all.. In a practical sense, anyway..

and that is the REAL question I asked, personally. "What are you doing to keep the same thing from happening, AGAIN?" No answers of course. Personally, I wouldn't keep someone whom I know who actually gives a damn in the dark.. you asked for help for this thing, didn't you? Prayed for "guidance"? For "wisdom" in running the thing? Here it is.. don't like a little rough edge on it.. tough crap.

and what do they have to offer the recruits? Power, to be LIKE THEM.. in the ORGANIZATION. to be the "who's who" in the cult hall of shame.. the "privilege" of having the power of summary judgement- to be like God..

If vic's callousness and lack of conscience is genetic.. God have mercy on them..

oddly is a good term.. and it seems like the "dream" is foisted upon the younger crowd.. young vicster as well. Why couldn't they just leave the kid alone.. he did manage to graduate with a bachellor's.. and today, that's just a START. Instead of going on, he has to fulfill "his" dream which is named for him.. shame on THEM. What a waste.. the kid is apparently brilliant.. now he's trying to resurrect a defunct cult.. those guys had their shot at the "dream".. why not just let it go.. I wonder how many words of "prophecy" were spoken over the young vicmeister, massaging his ego with promises of "greatness" in da dumb *ministry*.. my dream involves mathematics, chemistry and some physics.. I think it's the greatest.. for ME. One of my kids showed more aptitude in math than I did at her age.. she turned out to be an artist. I don't think a *normal* parent would be disappointed. Not that I claim to be *normal* or anything, but I'm not disappointed.. It would have been rather cruel and controlling to name her "Hamette II, THE mathematician for our day time and hour" upon birth..

Naw.. the wild card. You know, "gawd told ME to do so and so.. forget the insanity of it all.. case closed, thus sayeth da lard." I can hear the wierwillists argument.. "well, gawd told Noah to do some pretty incredible stuff.." well, in vic's case, the rains never came..

What I'd like to see is "their" take on this little tidbit from way history.. They seem to be attempting to ressurect the same system, with the same potential of abuse. Same "take our sheet or we'll send you home for *any* reason" posturing.. what's to keep the same thing from happening, all over again? Assurances? "oh, we've got a board watching over it.." twi had a board as well.. and this kind of power they exercised over a few thousand, corrupted them to the core. I think one would have to exonerate the vicster in one's own mind to really believe that his system of abuse and corruption to be worth resurrecting. Is this new group really holding on to the illusion that the history of corruption was mainly loy's fault, or that vic, an otherwise "honorable" man was just "distracted" by the "temptations" of the world? C'mon mr "history major".. let's hear a few answers..

I wonder how the underlings are expected to address the one in charge.. "the wittle itty bitty boy of gawd for our day, time and hour.." "the successor to his holiness".. and nametags. Will they have a proclivity to an over excessive use of nametags? Can't chop firewood without a name tag ya know..

Well.. gotta give a LITTLE credit. They say what state and county they are in..

Here's one of their competitors. http://www.christinthetetons.org/index.asp...eAction=COMPANY I would call that an "extreme" adventure. Notice full disclosure. Phone numbers, hours of operation, etc. etc. compare: http://sowersonline.com/default.aspx No names... no phone numbers.. only contact is through a disposable email address. "Well, we don't do things like the world does.." That's pretty obvious.

maybe they feel like moses taking the elders up the mount to see gawd.. about the only options I see, either it's sinister as hell, or they're *just* having delusions of grandeur.. the real situation probably lies somewhere in between.. anyway.. I don't think mr "history" learned much from history. Look what momentus did to ces. It was an "extreme" (but far shorter) adventure, designed for the "elite", those who could supposedly "handle it".. there were other factors, sure- but the resulting elitism, arrogance and harshness consumed their organization, from the inside out. It was no more than a weekend or so of intense hazing. It's an evil, wicked leaven.. give it enough time, and unchecked, it consumes whole organizations. look at what the legalism, harshness, and arrogance engendered in the corps program did for der vey. loy succeeded in REALLY training goons to bring the harshness that was primarily reserved before for those in "training" to those on the outside.

Speaking of "Here we go again"......the new *sowers* program... Near the front entrance of the OSC building at twi.....is a mural of George Jess sowing seed. As a sower, Mr. Jess was the first corps director in twi. :blink:

Actully,Mr.Ham,In the military boot camp if you do not meet the grade,they will send you through the 2nd time or even the 3rd time. And the "Program" is supposed to be even tougher than any "Military" They are using that poor kid,Yeah just like granpappy.A mog in the works. What "New "revelation will he receive?Mayhap God will talk to him audibly? The alleged geezers do know better,Hear that?You know better. Honors program? Honors student?It is not like it was 30 40 years ago Try somthin new Tune out drop out live in a commune? Now its about the money,Get a degree get a good job not hang around old geezers with a alleged "snot nosed kid"supposedly leading them. To what may I ask? Most of the geezer did get a college education,And the wealth?Either inherited,or perhaps that is what craigers said when they stole from the "ministry"All allged thought of course.

In a resume I wrote that I was in a relgious group but had moved on to other things in the community. I like the old geezer comments,This new generation otter think for thierslves hey? Nothing new under the sun. I keep this up Ill be marked and avoided before I even go to a meeting!HeHe

And to the "old geezers" on the "board", I say: If it's just a matter of midlife crisis, or change or something.. go to the local store, get a bottle of "herbal calm" or something.. figure out how to ride the wave of the hormones and brain chemicals. Worked for me. Though some may need something a little "stronger".. :) Then go back to school or something.. get a hobby.. get a degree maybe.. make a REAL difference for somebody.. even if it's secular.. being a fifty some year old "waysRus" kid is kinda pathetic.. the bible will actually STILL be around fifty or so years from now, despite your efforts or lack therof.

I think the old ministry raised up a bunch they could BRIBE.. those who couldn't be bought were often run off.. like Geek, Ralph.. others. MANY of the rest had character with the constitution of water.. fast growth seemed to put a heck of a lot of "bad characters" in charge of things.. they came in by droves from the woodwork.. one guy who managed to do quite a bit of damage at the first just "showed up" at one of the campuses. "Well, if you can come up with the money, you can stay.."

If this kind of question enrages someone.. it just proves a point. They haven't thought the thing through..

call it an "estranged" relationship.. I know the kid.. and the family.. but I've distanced myself, at least doctrinally.. I've just had enough of the same stuff.. don't hate them or anything.. but when I see something that makes my hair stand on end, I WILL say something.. even if it's not done according to Rocky's etiiquette.. :)

I just want to know if they plan to make their mayo from scratch. Well, that and whether or not there is a truck stop nearby.

Johnny, I'm actually being civil here. I'll spare you from seeing my nasty side.. ;) But.. didn't these guys have a CLUE of what kind of hornets nest they would stir up.. I just want a few answers. If "they" would have kept up some kind of dialog, I wouldn't be posting my questions and concerns here.. Apparently they don't owe me any answers on account of my lack of involvement in the organization. Only a guess, but probably a good one..

given his history with der vey, a court very well may consider something like this beyond simple copyright infringement.. toss in something that involves the word "malicious".. how many acres do you say you have?

If it is a work/study program.. who is going to do the teaching? what material? are they gonna run bootleg copies of vic's Thesslonians teachings? Or Romans? Or whatever? These REALLY are the kind of questions that SHOULD be answered on a web page somewhere.. or a course catalog. If I had a child considering going to something like this.. I would REALLY REALLY want to have a few HONEST answers.. it reminds me of a scene at a sanitarium in the 1800's.. dropping off a loved one who is just a little confused.. "You'll treat him OK? What are you going to do?" "Don't worry mahm.. we know what we are doing.. we'll take GOOD care of him.."

That wasn't my question.."what have you done to keep history from repeating itself". The "kid"'s heart is irrelevant.. at least as to my inquiry. There is no assumption. At least at this point, as far as I'm concerned. but why should they care for my concerns..

What I want to know is how you can get "kicked out" of something that has no membership? It's not like they kept track of whether you were there or not. I mean, how could they? Just wondering...

this is the only place that counts ;)--> http://www.groundhog.org/