Leaderboard

After reading your clarification, I fully agree. I apparently misunderstood your point. My apologies.

Doh!

That's the common fallacy - if there were one and only true way to interpret scriptures, there wouldn't be any discussion about truth as it would be self evident.

I think this particular comparison is a bit oblique. We (musicians) don't play Beethoven, Mozart and Bach because we want to come to a greater "understanding" of them or because we think we may have "misinterpreted" a specific passage. We play their works, ultimately, because they have the ability to evoke an emotional response that touches the human psyche in a way that is both universal and timeless. Of course, students of said composers do play their works with a view toward broader understanding but that is only a means to the stated end. And, unlike the bible business, these works are open to a certain degree of "private interpretation". There is no "one and only" true way to interpret their many nuances. So, we don't play them to discover what they sound like. We play them because we already know what they sound like and we want to be a part of the effect it evokes. You could probably apply the same logic to a local bar band playing well worn "covers".

when I first read the title of this thread all it thought of was how the poor Way Corps folks were subject to regular verbal beat downs by top leadership in order to feel that they needed to be retaught, again and again, over and over....etc. Ever learning was in truth, ever being pushed under their thumbs. In other words the whole f'in enchilada was messed up, bigtime. No wonder wayfer sympathisers think we are only bitter. But IMO they might not feel like that if they understood about how all the abuse they suffered themselves or became afraid of by watching others suffer was only to bring them into the sick and twisted TWI party line. ever learning = ever abused!?

Do you feel the same way about the works of Shakespeare, Homer, Plato, Socrates? How about the art of Michaelangelo? You know, Beethoven, Mozart and Bach have been played a lot over the centuries. I wonder why musicians continue to play their music? I mean, after all, don't we all know what it's supposed to sound like what with recordings and all. One book about Abraham Lincoln should suffice don't you think? And for crying out loud, how many more movies do we need about WWII? Hey people, America won..o.k.? Oh Gawd, it's all so lame...Let's get on to more important things like video games, drive-thru cheeseburgers and what college football team will finish number 1.

Life is about passing the buck.

Believe it or not, the interlinear is used. Take a look at this site: (the old bbs software used to edit the URL for the Pe*hitta version, so I "tinyurl'd" it) The Aramaic lexicon has the following copyright disclaimer: © The Way International 1988-89. All rights reserved. The contents and results of this search tool may not be used without the prior written consent of The Way International.

I can understand why folks that have been involved have a carefully built-into-them blind spot. Such things have been done to people fairly regularly throughout history. William Tyndale even once spoke of those of whom he would be better off trying to persuade a post than to continue to pluck that folly from their brains.....sigh. I can understand how Wierwille has his cronies become a network of enablers or fellow pervs. This has happened fairly regularly throughout history too. I can understand why TWI deliberately includes the threat of lawsuits in it's arsenal. But I am sickened by how they twist scriptures to prevent well meaning folks from going after them while they themselves are just as narrow minded and vindictive as the very worst of any selfish, self centered TWIts. I can understand why some gentle and kind people would feel that the guilty verdicts weren't worth going after with everything they had, both from the perspective of what it may cost them and what they themselves might become. I can even understand why some former TWI leadership may unfortunately have encouraged folks to not engage TWI by going after justice in the court system. Butwhat I do not understand is why more fellow pervs and enablers have not come clean about it all. I think it just makes it more likely for the TWIts to fool more people with their b.s. IMO a guilty verdict might have made a real difference.

I agree with you on the wasted time. However, my take on this is the Bible is for the individual to build a relationship with their Father, and research can help understand Him. I don't let the abuse of a few false prophets cause me to deny my relationship I've built with God over years. God could work with me inside that insipid cult. He can surely do even more without the restrictions those sick individuals imposed. One verse talks about being delivered from wicked and unreasonable men.

Those stories were pretty rich... I may have to use some of those ideas.... (I love messing with people - they're so entertaining!)

Maybe I should have simply said it's like "apples and oranges".

Mssr. Erk, My criticism of "Biblical Research" really has nothing to do with the average person who desires to read and/or study it, but the apparently deeprooted idea that there's some sort of wealth of secret knowledge to be unlocked there if we only avail ourselves of the right teacher or the revolutionary new curriculum. I dare say that, if after the 2 millenia or so that the texts have been scoured over, inside and out, upside and down, preceived from every imaginable viewpoint, that if there's anything really new or enlightening to be gleaned from the text, the author must have gone to extreme lengths to make the contents as inscrutable as possible. That hardly seems reasonable, does it? Can you think of a passage, a word, or even a syllable of Biblical text that hasn't been analyzed to death by now? Doesn't it seem just a little bit arrogant to think that any meaning we may ferret out of some text must have been glossed over - or missed entirely - by the many thousands of people who poured over texts (often much closer to "original" source material than we have today), and maybe even dedicated their entire lives to their study? And to answer your other points, no I can't think of any subject thats been as overworked as the Bible. Maybe the Q'ran or the Bhagavagita, or The Book of the Dead or some other "holy" writ gets similar attention in countries that follow those dogmas, and if so, it's equally misguided. I guess it's still a sore subject for me when I look back at all the wasted years chasing after some sort of enlightenment from the pack of Bible thumpers that were The WAY's management. What did we get for all that time checking concordances, interlinears, listening to tapes and attending the endless classes and "fellowships"? What? I can't think of a thing. It was simply a waste of life. We might as well have been Michael Jackson groupies or somesuch. Or maybe we coulda become diehard conspiracy theorists, 9-11 Truthers per chance? They've got all that secret knowledge too, you know...

My comparison may be oblique. My comments were in response to someone who, at least to me, was criticizing Bible study itself. He seemed to be criticizing Jews and Christians to dedicating so much time to studying what they believe is Truth because the writings had been around for so long. My argument is that it makes at least as much sense to study ancient writings as it does to study any ancient work be it art, literature, history or whatever. But since you brought it up, I think you musicians do play works of the masters to come to a greater understanding of them. At least in the context of getting in touch with the emotion the master composer was trying to convey and then of course...convey it. In addition (I realize I am now getting etherial) one might use certain music (i.e. baroque) to get in touch with the emotions inside one's self. Also, it would seem to me that if one wanted to become a master composer, they would be foolish to not learn the masters. The same holds true with all of the arts, that is, literature, visual arts, and the like. I hope that eliminates at least some of my "obliqueness".

And to think that there are people who argue _against_ the death penalty. But seriously Mark, I know that (well I think anyway) that you come out against the death penalty, and I respect your reasons for it, really I do. But as far as I'm concerned, ... crank up Sparky for all of the punks. All of them!

that was even more disgusting!!!

Exactly. That's why I said "the bible business", not "the bible" itself.

I work as the desktop support now for a small town's government. Let me tell you some stories from the other side of the phone line.... ====== Me: Hello, Jane. What can I do for you? Jane: I can't access the network. Me: (checks who's logged in - Jane is there...) You seem to be logged in. Have you just rebooted your machine? Jane: No. Me: Have you received any emails today or been able to access the internet? Jane: Yes. But I have this window that says "Server Error" Me: Do you have Internet Explorer open right now? Is that where this error window is located? Jane: Yes. Me: (checks internet connections - of course, it's on.) Hmmm... you seem to be connected. What site are you trying to access? Maybe it's down? Jane: Facebook. I can't get back on Facebook and I was just in FarmVille! Me: I'm sorry but we don't support Facebook - town policy, I'm afraid. ======= Fred: My computer's actin' funny... Me: What's going on? Fred: It's beeping like crazy. Won't stop. Can you come look at it? Me: I'll be right there.... A close inspection showed that he had two keyboards hooked up to the thing - one was on a sliding tray, the other was above it on the desktop. The keyboard on the sliding tray had a box of staples sitting on it. The box was pressing on the keyboard and causing the beeping. Fred: Promise me you won't tell anyone. Me: You bet cha'. ;) ======== My least favorite type of call - the one that makes my face red in an instant because my blood pressure just went through the roof is this. Mary: (in a panic-stricken voice) I just got a virus! Me: What makes you think that? Mary: I got this email and clicked on a link and something downloaded. My computer just rebooted by itself. Me: (mentally groans) I'll be right there but please don't click on anything more until I see what it's doing okay? By the way, who sent the email? Mary: I dunno. Me: What did it say? Mary: Something about resetting my Outlook password - I didn't pay attention. Me: (thinking: NO KIDDING!) Okay... I'll be right there. Did you enter your passwords or anything of the sort? Mary: I don't remember. Me: When did this happen? Mary: Just now - just a moment ago. Me: I'll be right there... hang on. (And wondered if Mary would remember who I was and why I was coming to her office....) It was an email from a spammer with a link to a site with malware. The email addy was something like spike@hotmail.pl - gotta love it.

What good is knowing the "truth" if you don't do anything with it? It's really not an end in itself, or at least shouldn't be when it comes to being a follower of Jesus.

I read the link and I find it interesting how so many apply one standard to the Bible and Christianity and then another to everything else. Why isn't this esteemed professor calling for end of studying the Q'ran, or the Kuma Sutra, or the works of Buddha for the same reasons. I'm getting a bit off topic so let me bring it back. These splinter groups are simply regurgitating an interpretation (some would say a perversion) of the Bible. Personally I think they're trying to re-live their glory days as youths. They're simply offering the same stuff repackaged and it's pathetic, really, as well as very sad. However, that is not to be confused with legitimate Bible study or for seeking truth within the Bible. Many find comfort, encouragement and peace through Bible study even after all these centuries.

Here's a great dialog from thedailywtf.com... Microsoft Vissa (from Mike Cook) A couple years ago, after trying nearly everything to get my new Dell to work, I did the unthinkable. I called Dell's tech support. After giving the service tag and all that other jazz, I explained the problem to the technician. "According to the BIOS," I said, "my computer has 4GB of RAM installed. But Vista Ultimate only shows 2GB." "Hmm," the tech responded, "what is this Vissa software you are using?" "Microsoft Vista Ultimate," I explained, "you know, the new Microsoft OS?" The rep paused. "I'm sorry, we don't support third party software. But if you would like, I can help you restore your computer to its original state. Do you have your Dell Resource CD?" "No, no," I countered, "this isn't third party software. It is the operating system that came with the computer when I purchased it from you." "What is the software called again?" "Microsoft Vista," I said slowly, "Ultimate Edition." The rep put me on hold for a few minutes and returned several minutes later. "Where did you get this Vissa program? I will see if anyone here has heard of it." "Well," I wasn't sure how to respond, "it's Microsoft's newest Operating System, and it is called Vista." "Ooooh," the rep responded, "Vissa! Yes, I understand now." I just waited for a moment. "Well Mr. Mike," he said, "this is a problem with the Vissa software. We have notified Microsoft and they have informed us that you can not use more than 3GB of memory with this software. I suggest you uninstall it and install the XP Pro that came with your computer." "But, my computer came with Vista Ultimate installed on it. It is less than two weeks old." The technician seemed a little confused, "okay, but I can send you a copy of XP Pro?" "No thank you," I said, "my friend bought the exact same PC, and his shows the 4GB in Vista, so I don't think it is a bug." "I see. So is there anything else I can help you with, Mr. Mike?" "I would really like to find out how to resolve this," I pleaded, "I read up a little on it on a website, but I cannot make changes to the BIOS with everything grayed out. I was hoping you could help me?" "Unfortunately we don't offer support for other software like Bios and Vissa, but we can help you restore your system back to its original configuration if you would like?" "No," I was started to get agitated, "I really would like see the 4GB in Vista." Without even acknowledging my request, the rep said "so is there anything else I can help you with Mr. Mike?" "But can't you tell me who else I could check with to try and find answer to this problem?" In the same exact tone, the rep repeated "so is there anything else I can help you with Mr. Mike?" I said no, and disconnected the call shortly thereafter.

Sometimes it seems ironic that a comment such as "grow a pair" was used to bully and push people around. Whether your hubby is confrontational or not he definitely had a pair in order to not run with them in spite of the abusive verbage.

I don't know that a group of kids just wake up one day and decide to behave that way. It sounds like someone's been too easy on them too long.

Graphs. . . charts. . . JP2??? The reason I say you take a narrow biblical perspective is because you take one thing Jesus directed we as Christians to do. . . . and extrapolate or to be blunt. . . justify. . . an entire political agenda. You magnify one portion of scripture and interpret it to mean something it doesn't. It doesn't make any sense to me. Why are you saying that it is a grave evil for the government to offer social assistance programs? Because that is not the way Jesus commanded Christians to treat the poor? What does one have to do with the other? The last time I checked we had a secular gov't . . . a Muslim rep. . . atheists. . . gays. . . a Jewish Senator. . . we are not a theocracy. Not a Christian nation. Why then do you call what they do as our reps. . . collectively. . . evil and not just evil but, grave evil? Are they lining people up and shooting them in the streets? Are they ignoring the poor by offering no assistance? No, those who represent we the people in gov't are doing what we as Christians are told to do. It is still the same principle. Romans 2:14&15 They show the work of the law without having the law. . . but it is written on their hearts. It is an innate knowledge of God. . . people value and practice the most basic of tenets. . . compassion and goodness towards others. This reflects what is written on their hearts. Christian's don't have a monopoly on good. It doesn't usurp your responsibility. . . or mine. . . . it doesn't take the burden off from us as Christians to help those who need it. Jesus still commands us. . . in fact. . . He commands us to love our enemy and to give to them as well. Now, if you were to say. . . I don't have to give. . . I pay taxes. . . as a Christian THAT would be wrong. Jesus commanded us to do both. It is surely not an either or proposition. You say it creates a culture of entitlement. . . that is quite a judgment to make on an entire group of people. . . do you know everyone on assistance? Their circumstances? To my ears. . . when I hear that. . . it just sounds like rhetoric. We as a society caring for our needy is not a sin. . . where do all good gifts come from? The earth is the Lords and the fullness thereof. . . who does it all belong to? By not understanding that it all belongs to Him and He sets up the authorities and uses what He will. . . . Do you know who is actually not giving God the glory here? You. God's provision can come from anywhere He pleases. He rained food down from heaven. . . When it is provided, we give Him the glory. . . by calling His provision evil. . . you are missing the mark. But, you are right. . . it isn't working so we as a nation need to be doing more. And. . . I am not trying to convince you of anything. . . . I just think it is an indefensible position to have. . . . along with giving people a hole wide enough for a truck to drive through and speak ill of God. But, I appreciate your time. Take Care.

So are there any offshoots that are involved in showing God's love by any charitable work or are they all retirement homes for aging boomers who were in TWI ?

will red Concord Grape Morgen David or Maneshelvitz Passover wine do

Did you mention the army of slaves? I was never close to Wierwille but the branch and limb coordinators I was around always seemed to need someone to rake their yard, do their laundry, clean their house, polish their car, watch their children, refinish their furniture or build an addition to their house in the guise of "fellowship". Apparently any honest work tainted their purity

Probably quite a few folks that are his equal Bolshevik. But ignorance can leave some with clear consciences still. I try not to use too broad a brush. I may have missed and even ignored much over the years. But when I heard it for the first time right hear at GSC, I mean REALLY heard it, a lot changed for me very quickly.