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All right so I'm back to answering this post. My "interaction" with them consists of going through this thread, listening to their video and listening to it, and then comparing what I hear now with all of those people and what I knew of them over the years I actually worked with them face to face, what they shared, how they acted, the people they abused, how they covered up things, how they carried on their own acts independent of VPW and LCM. I find what they say now to be kind lacking much "congruity". That is all I am willing to say at this point without going into extreme detail about the evil in people's past. Suffice it to say there is cause for alarm and concern. Their lust for position they are displaying now is evident throughout their actions. For instance, why did the "council of 7 or whatever that appeared in that video even need to appear at all?" Plenty have confronted the Way, left the way, sent letters in. What was the purpose behind that pomp and circumstance video that contained a whole lot of nothing? So that everyone watching would see who their new leadership would be. That is the group that is planning out what is taught on Sundays, right? They are the central group to whom people ask questions about the Bible? Correct? We've invited that specific group to come interact here - and they have to a person declined. Why? I say they accept no other Christian input, and you are climbing all over me because you consider yourself to be "other Christian input". But consider for a minute, are they interacting with other Christians regularly? Or does the "council" just meet regularly and plan weekly teachings? Do they meet with local Christian pastors? Why not? Most other churches do. What specific other groups of Christians outside of those under their influence do they interact with regularly? I would say they appease you and do what they want. The matter you brought up was not that significant. Why are they acting "separatist" from the rest of the body of Christ to include even those who left the Way a decade before them? Of course, they aren't going to tell anyone what to do, and just teach the Bible. Just like Wayne Clapp and John Shroyer after the Way discarded them. CFF was going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, all the good Bible and none of the rules. Woohoo! Wayne would fly around the country and meet with whoever wanted to, be loving, whatever. Recruitment. Then sign you up for running one of their fellowships. They tried to poach off disgruntled Way followers for a decade or more, and now have turned into kind of like a local church combined with a Way Tree structure with home fellowships over the country. Their Sunday teachings drive everything. I know of a half a dozen similar organizations and fellowships that exist within 100 square miles of where I currently live. People who split off from the Way, carved out their own little Private Idaho, and have run fellowships or "ministries" since then. All have one thing in common - the unreasonable adoration of Victor Paul Wierwille and his works. Some of this is how I am sure of what they are doing. None of it is presumptuous, other than presuming more details from history than you are aware of.

you speak of giving them a chance to prove themselves – but perhaps what you think they’re shooting for might be quite different than what they’ve actually set out to accomplish… to prove oneself is to show that one is able to do something or to succeed at something; You have already noted the group’s excessive admiration for wierwille. That in itself is a huge red flag to me or anyone else who has already endured the frustration, intimidation, elitism, exploitation, and hypocrisy of wierwille…Jesus hit the nail on the head when he called out hypocrites like him: Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean... Matthew 23:27 I don’t mean to sound like an alarmist but anyone who thinks this group is new and improved on Bible stuff, should take heed – that’s playing with fire. It appears the only reference point this group has is the warped yardstick of wierwille’s twisted doctrine and practice...if folks never think outside wierwille’s theological box – they’ll never see how much of it actually goes at cross-purposes to Jesus Christ himself! …you know…even their chosen name for the group – revival and restoration – should be a clear warning to discerning Christians: Revival - a reawakening of religious fervor, especially by means of a series of evangelistic meetings. Restoration - the action of returning something to a former owner, place, or condition; the reinstatement of a previous practice, right, custom, or situation; the return of a hereditary monarch to a throne, a head of state to government, or a regime to power. Their goal seems pretty clear to me…they want to revive …reawaken an admiration of wierwille in others…to restore – to return to a former condition of what TWI used to be like under wierwille’s regime of power…revive…restore…or let’s just say re-animate the bones of a dead hypocrite… Buyer beware, if it smells like the same old $hit that wierwille dished out – it probably is.

filthy lucre is a hard one to explain - KJV term. practically it may have zero to do with actual finances, but more to do with perceived power and influence. in whatever circle you travel someone who is able to show influence over larger numbers has more perceived power, and can come to a point where they are reluctant to give it up.

Like... this IS on the internet. Can people not be found if they have any footprint on the internet?????

You appear to be too close to the subject to be capable of objective analysis. In journalism, that's strictly forbidden. On forums, not so much. The key point is that you rationalize and try to justify what you see. You SAY you're just giving your observations, but you're just too close to your subject. Case in point: you clearly have stated that you have not observed evidence of the R&R group wanting followers' money. Do you have any idea what an investigative journalist would do to actually find out? It goes well beyond seeing whether they have a "donate" button on their website. I've asked you questions that could lead you to exploring the issue if you had a genuine inquisitiveness. Beyond claiming "they have been very specific they don't want money," how deep has been the public discussion about how the organization will fund its activities?

Sure people who don't believe them discuss them. But what do you mean by believe them? Do you believe you do? I'm noting you're using "The Word" and "scriptures" interchangeably. Do they mean the same thing to you?

What, exactly, did I write that leads you to believe I'm controlling and manipulative. For starters, if I were trying to control and manipulate people, do you really think I'd try to do it here? After all, GSC folks seem to a pretty discerning and independent lot from what I can tell. As far as I can tell from the verses I quoted, God exhorts us to love and forgive one another. Does he control or manipulate people to do that? I think he just says what is best for us and let's us make up our mind. If I hold out a tootsie roll out to you and you take it, does that make me controlling or manipulative? Maybe you could give me your take on all of the verses from the original post. Maybe we are not supposed to love and forgive one another. Tell me why we shouldn't. If it makes sense, I'll change my believing accordingly.

OK. Let's discourse. What is your opinion on the subject?

Long ago, when dinosaurs still roamed the earth, I got a teaching degree. learning is -{vastly simplified} The building blocks of learning are learned before the age of seven.. Building blocks are Hot vs cold, Up vs down, Dry vs wet etc etc. After we have those blocks in place everything else we learn is a result of each new concept being correlated in our minds as to where they fit in with the building blocks Intelligence is a measure of how well we reconfigure the positions of the building blocks and concepts Thus the Stephen Hawking's of the world are extremely adept at finding multiple configurations of blocks and concepts - most of us are not so adept, but it is this reconfiguring that takes us beyond the bounds of what we have been taught into new frontiers. We may never be a Hawkings , or Einstein but many a person has found a better way of making or doing something simply by the question What if? If we can't go beyond what we are taught there would be no what ifs

As far as I know, the bird is still the word. If it has changed please let me know.

I have thought this way before as well. Well if the "word" says it then lets just do it. Now I loook at who is saying when where and just how and could care less if the fact a chapter and verse is involved. I love the bible I will even say I hold true to the wisdom within in my life and consider it important and worthy. Yet I will not use the bible as bullet or a weapon to hurt any other being. so many many times that is how bible verses are used and I will say I have never understood what this term "word" means exactly. In twi it met what some leader thought about something with some bible verse maybe put in at a distance.. Who knows Gods word? who? really? prove it. it can not be proved any more than if or if there is a God or ten. bible verses are one thing and they leave alot of to be desired what with thousands of different versions written today. The "word" I have no clue . I am not so arrogant as to think I have some inner voice speaking the mircle of right living in my ear and if I did truly I would not be so stupid as to admit it aloud to be given some heavy duty drugs to erase the mental illnes such thinking is in the catergory of .

ckm, no offense intended, but "knowledge of the word" is what got everybody in trouble to start with. "Knowledge of the word"without a relationship with Jesus causes no end of pain and heartache. I think that's why we witnessed the train wreck of the way, inc.