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No, thanks.

Freedom, a new life, a new perspective about God and the Bible An opportunity to love all people, to serve from something as basic as a warm greeting in the morning to saying thank you and please, not being a false servant in a group only to become a leader. A wonderful chance to get closer to my family, that family from which I distanced myself because they did not participate in the ministry.

TWI has changed a little bit during the recent years. But their change its only towards recover the "good old days" of VPW and PRE-LCM. VPW is still the main figure and the functioning of the organization and psychological abuse towards people persists. They're not willing to apologize to people; they only ask them to forgive and move forward "in love" . It's sad, but they demand greater maturity from the "average" believer than they do from the leader. Forgiving someone does not immediately mean restoring the relationship or psychological healing.

Thanks For the Letters Charlene, I'm new in the Forum though I lurked for years. And I left the Way 2 years ago.

Glad you had a good experience Joyful. For many of us here, it would take a lot more than people being friendly and joyful to overcome the darkness the organization embraced for many years. If you go to ROA 2025, let us know what you think.

Don't mind me, I'm a cynical old fart. Part of this reminds me of my own early experiences, all those years ago. Everyone seemed so happy, joyful, "We sure do love you" and all that jazz. Different from mainstream churches. Love bombing at its best. Somehow, I don't see it ending well. Your mileage may vary.

I don't know anything about narcissistic children, but I know something about the full blown disorder (NPD) in adults. Adults that develop this disorder usually suffered trauma/abuse as children. This abuse is usually by a parent who is an NPD/sociopath themself. Often the abuse is severe neglect or abandonment. It can even be overvaluing the child. (This may seem counterintuitive, but it's the academic term for "spoiled rotten.") The NPD seeks to destroy that which they did not experience. A form of revenge? Envy? I don't know why exactly, but narcissists are attracted to good people who are strong, honest, kind, generous, empathetic, loved and authentic. They didn't have any of that as children. NPDs are incapable of honestly expressing and living those qualities. Others who exemplify and embody those qualities are targeted. And they are then systematically destroyed. Self esteem isn't the primary reason. Empathy is a significant factor.

Wierwille took all these definitions, line by line and word for word, from another source. (Leonard, perhaps?) If you try to put this stuff into practice, one of three things is going to happen. One: You'll delude yourself into believing they actually work. Two: You'll feel ashamed and embarrassed you're the only one who doesn't quite "get it". Three: You'll come to the conclusion it was all a bunch of nonsense all along.

There was a little book sold in the bookstore called Christian Etiquette by Dorothy Owens. It was probably about 50 pages or so. It had a lot of advice on things like how to set a table, what fork to use, proper dinner conversation, etc. Most of the trivial details have become antiquated in today's society. The overall concept it stressed, though, remains true. Our "etiquette" should be concerned with making people feel at ease and should never create an atmosphere of stress. I would recommend the book and reiterate it should be used with that thought in mind.

I remember, back in the day, there was a twig leaders' syllabus that outlined acceptable behavior at large events, such as limb meetings, branch meetings and so forth. One of the admonitions listed was to "refrain from picking your own seat." My question is this: Are there currently any circumstances under which it's acceptable to pick your seat? Whose seat should you pick instead? (Yes, thank you, I've been told I'm a twisted individual.)

I got very caught up with the Bickle sexual abuse scandal and the IHOPKC coverup and how similar it was to weirwille's and twi's. What did you know about the latter and what is twi saying about it now? There's no way I respect twi today for their lies and coverup for this man. Do they still call him "the man of God for our day and time" or just their "father in the word?"

Do they still "teach" four crucified?

Hmmmm. You might be on to something.

Good for you.Thanks to this ole sight and lots of great people,I feel it would be a step backard into their religion.

Very funny, Waysider. No Kool-Aid here. Lots of red wine, though.

It's too late to edit, so I'll add that my "I'll drink to that." emoji can be anything you want it to be-whiskey wine, cognac, beer, tea, coffee, soda...just so long as it's not kool-aid!

Congratulations Twinky!

The more I look into things and consider them, the more convinced I become that vpw faked ALL the "manifestations", from start to finish. How he could fake the "utterance" manifestations, we've discussed before. Anyone could make sounds, anyone could claim they're reciting a message from God. Prime the pump first by instructing the gullible public how the things are SUPPOSED to look and sound- even if the results are nothing at all like the real thing- and you're golden. Your only danger is someone catching on- especially if they encounter the real thing or otherwise realize yours don't resemble what the real thing is supposed to look like. It also explains why vpw had an explanation as to why there were 2 completely different types of prophecy, one of which had nothing to do with prophesying. So, teach people to make sounds, teach people to compose a "message from God Almighty", and keep expectations high, and you'll convince them that the sounds and the "messages" both came from God Almighty and not their expectations. This is how it COULD be done. (Start another thread if you want to discuss this further.) How to fake the "information" manifestations is a bit trickier, but it's do-able. Don't overplay your hand, keep it low-key or people will catch on. Periodically pretend that you're receiving Divine Revelation at that moment. Reveal something people didn't know you knew. vpw was fond of listening to the John Birch Society's tinfoil hat conspiracies, then coming forth in private with "revelation" about conspiracies in the US. That's how twi got into thinking 1976 was going to be the end of the US. Did it stop with vpw's death? No- and if you were listening to twi as Y2K approached, you'd know that. That was ANOTHER time the world "ended." Although both times, the world was saved because people were in twi praying, and disaster was averted. (Some people really bought that. Both times. Some of the same people bought that both times. A few people still buy that.) But it's harder to fake Divine Revelation when you don't have enough really good information to run with. So, you make up for it by having accounts of you getting revelation be either general ("he gets revelation") or second-hand with people inventing instances they "saw". You can also add a few "a few years ago, this happened but there are no witnesses" stories. We saw that with vpw's visit to India, where his account was full of miracles, and people loved him- but he never visited nor spoke to them again afterwards, not one word. Other people's accounts of the same trip (like Mrs W) skip virtually all the miracles and all the adoration, and are vague when they're not skipped entirely. So, we got stories like "vpw walked around a racetrack and got revelation showing people's hearts as white or black." As for the "impartation/power" manifestations, those are harder still to fake. vpw had stories circulating about him doing things from people who supposedly were there. When it was time for actual results, vpw fell short. Either he had other people minister healing and so on, or when something went wrong, he screamed at someone for failing to predict problems and so on. There are no accounts of "the tent top was going to collapse from flooding, so he prayed, and all that water just vanished"- instead, someone cut a hole and he blamed people. There's no accounts of "we all got together, the electricity went out, we heard him praying faintly, then suddenly the generators came back to life and there was much rejoicing." Instead, we had him admit he was still standing there. For someone who allegedly gets all sorts of prayers answered in miracles, why didn't he even ASK for one then? The most sensible answer- he knew it was pointless, he knew he wouldn't get answered. Oh, the further away the eyewitnesses were, the more miraculous things happened around him- miraculous healings in India, miraculous snowstorms kept happening to him in the US, and so on. As to the second of those, someone checked at the time, and found there was NO snowstorm at the time- he was caught lying. As to the first of those, the reaction was fascinating. Someone checked afterwards, and there was no snow. They went up to vpw, and said so. This was a man who insisted that he was snowed in, in a city. ALL traffic was STOPPED. NO trains. NO planes. NO buses. Sounds like a blizzard. I've lived through those. (For the record, in NYC, the subways usually can be kept running, even in a blizzard, and I used the subway in any blizzard or snow storm that stopped the buses.) He said this over and over. When someone came up and said there was no snow at all- not even one flake, what is the obvious response? If someone claimed there was no snow in the last blizzard I trudged through, I would be rather emphatic. Check again! I spent most of an hour either standing or trudging, and did a lot of cardio just getting to and from the subway. To say nothing of the 10 hours that followed, all of which were affected by the heavy snow. I would be clear they either were checking the wrong date, or the wrong city. IF vpw had lived through one, his response should have been similar. (It would be like someone trying to tell me the Twin Towers never fell.) What was his reaction? Nothing of the kind! Immediately, he CHANGED HIS STORY. He claimed that there must not have been any actual snow at all, but instead when he tried to arrange passage, he spoke on the phone, repeatedly, to angels who lied to him each time. (So, you can believe angels lied, or you can believe wierwille lied. According to vpw, ALL men are liars.) When it comes to teaching on the other 6, I think that vpw paid close attention to what other people said, and did his best to memorize them and regurgitate them at will. So, he could SOUND like he knew the subject, but that was only because he was RECITING what he memorized. His understanding was about as deep as that of a person who reads a wikipedia page aloud and people think he's an expert on that subject. His knowledge was spotty and intermittent. His definitions changed from Leonard's definitions. Those changes never made anything clearer, they just added syllables and ten-dollar words. That's not the actions of a man trying to make knowledge clearer- those are the actions of a man hiding that he doesn't know what he's talking about! Geer later came along and changed some definitions. In each case, each attempt at least TRIED to make things clearer. That was a man TRYING to make things easier to be understood. (Whether or not his conclusions were correct, I would not fault his intention.) IMHO, in some of the changes, he was successful, and in some, he was not because he let his interpretation guide things. Interestingly enough, in the case of at least one change, he fixed something that I thought was a rather basic problem with the definition. I went back later. That was part of Leonard's definition. Instead of fixing an elementary problem with it, vpw added lots of SAT vocabulary words to it, then taught it. I was a student who hadn't studied that subject under ANY of them, and I realized the definition had a problem- and what it was. vpw TAUGHT the thing for YEARS and never identified it. Why? He was reciting things, and only "understood" them in a rote way. If were forced to explain them using completely different words, he would have been unable. So, if you find vpw's approach is too mechanical, you're probably right. His "understanding" was from a shallow, intellect-only level of book-learning, and lacked completely any actual EXPERIENCE of subjects explaining EXPERIENCE.

Awesome! I'm so happy for you.

My shiny new fiance is a very kind man, a devout Christian since his too-long-ago youth, strong supporter of his church and many worthy activities to help under-privileged and needy folk, generous with his time, money, and his heart, soul, mind and strength. He was the Safeguarding officer at his church - that is, the person responsible to whom abuses of any kind within the church community are reported; and then he independently ensures that allegations are investigated and appropriate action taken. So no surprises at abuse by "spiritual overseers" in church settings, and learning of church ministers and leaders who've done wrong in this respect. It would be some 11 years or so ago, when I felt safe talking to him about the abuses (many) that had happened to me, and he's been wonderfully patient and understanding over the time since then in helping me move to a very good place in my life now. And I have helped him in overcoming his grief and loneliness by my "just being there" when his wife of nearly 50 years together (not all married), died of a nasty disease, before we met. A good friendship has grown into = well, we get married on 6 September!

Thanks My Friend!! I really appreciate it. I will listen attentively

I'm assuming that you are not finding what you want to know about revelation-and-impartation manifestations right from the bible or personally from asking God. Do you wonder why this could be? Nevertheless, if you or anyone else is able to find an author who has reliable evidence for the working of miracles, healing, faith, discerning of spirits, etc. which truly works for you as well, please be sure to share it on your thread. Thanks.

Well, I traveled to ADV Class 2020 - 2023 and Donna M. taught parts of the book (Dorothy's) during breaks after class, including how to eat an orange with a knife and whether or not to rest your arms on the table. I realized that many believers, especially Africans, were unfamiliar with certain american/latin/occidental manners. But culture is like that, we are all different.

What a cash grab. Just an awful means of providing a written foundation for relentless legalism

Not so sure about that. As an "International," the way I use a knife and fork are very different from the way Americans use these utensils. Dorothy always said that we should keep our own "national" table manners, and eat appropriately - but neatly! We Internationals weren't encouraged to eat American-style.

He might put them in the lockbox, but he'll pretend to pull them out of "daddy's cookie jar".

I'm not at all surprised some "HQ guys" interpreted it that way. When we used it in FellowLaborers. however, that is not at all the message we were expected to draw from it. In fact, it was just the opposite. We were to adapt to other cultures, not expect them to adapt to us. If you're at an event where it's common practice for everyone to eat with their fingers, you should do the same to put others at ease, adapt a "when in Rome" sort of attitude.

“In our study, narcissistic children also felt more comfortable leading peers with low self-esteem.“ Easy prey. How can an NPD, finding himself dumbstruck at his good fortune of amassing such a large group of followers, find the most vulnerable among them? He might mandate his dupes to each write an autobiographic confession of their lives. Their personal histories will be safe in the lockbox. They could mail them to: The Teacher, P.O. Box… ** Never, ever, tell a narc a secret. NEVER. EVER.

Try this https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/19/opinion/naval-academy-speech-censorship.html?unlocked_article_code=1.BU8.ogZd.g8h66XEae4M_&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

I did hit the NYTimes paywall. I'm very interested. Thanks.

Agree.... and since this thread is about books of the '70s.. off topic as well... thanks. Happy Resurrection Sunday, one and all!

Do you ever get tired of trying to squeeze your political views in here?

It's not bragging if you could actually do it.

Had Ethelbert believed big enough to live long enough, he might have INVENTED the ice cream cone! Hey, I didn’t REwrite the book. Victor did. He also invented stuff. Speaking of silly, “four-crucified” is the preferred euphemism for all lies and bullsh¡t in my household. I’m really trying to watch my foul mouth, especially around my son. So, lots of spelling, abbreviating and saying “four-crucified.” (It’s been getting a lot of use in recent months.) Just last week my son was feigning a tummy ache to get out of going to school. I got him on the phone and said, “I’m calling four-crucified on this…!” He got up, got dressed, and went to school. I was so proud of myself for exercising such restraint that, well, gosh, I felt like could just jump over a barn.

Dress for Success The book that had all the men wearing three piece suits to job interviews at Burger King! To be fair, the information Molloy imparted was probably true at one time, but dress standards have gotten progressively more casual in the intervening decades

You can still get the 8 PDF files of letters Wierwille wrote to The Way Corps (1977 - 1981). They reveal the manipulative man he was behind-the-scenes, seeking adoration, using intimidation to get loyalty, and seeking sympathy over his imagined persecution by anyone he considered an enemy. I'll send the letters until April 30, 2025 at 5 pm. How to get them? Send me a message either here on GSC or at https://charleneedge.com If you haven't connected the dots about who I am, I graduated from the 2nd Way Corps (1971-1973), then I was an area, limb, branch, twig leader over the years, married to Tim Bis*op, originally from the Rye, NY fellowship, also in the 2nd Corps, who VPW ordained. I was a member of the Way's biblical research team who worked on the Aramaic projects. 1984 - 1986 until I resigned in protest. That story and more is in my memoir. Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International. (2017). It's for sale online in paperback and ebook. The VPW letters to the Way Corps are from my own personal files. I saved a whole lot of material from my time in VPW's cult. Have a great day! Charlene Edge

Thanks, Joe. This is so interesting. One day there will be no living direct connection to vpw. Someone will have been taught directly from Vern, who was taught directly from vpw... the apostolic succession. But won't this be the same "tradition" of "religion" they are always defecating on? Do they believe PFAL is the Word of God? Do they believe PFAL is theopneustos, as Mike does? Either by implication or direct teaching?

Thanks Folks! And Keep it up! It's kinda funny cause I've been witnessing your posts and discussions since 2009 and now we are chatting. I even witnessed the Mike-Wars xD I'm thankful to all of you and especially Penworks for having the guts to write down all her experiences.

Welcome, Joe! It’s a rebirth. Hallelujah! You’ve got to know what’s available before you can get it. I’ll tell you what’s available: Peace, Love, Power, Liberty and Abundance like it hasn’t been known since… before you joined the cult.

You are most welcome. I'm overjoyed at the response to this offer. So many folks want to know what VPW was up to back then. The letters are evidence of his warped (understatement) so-called leadership. He was a needy, little man who craved adoration and loyalty. Seems as if today's TWI leadership still give him that and keep promoting him as some great man of God so as to keep followers involved. Oh, if they only knew the dark side of that man, maybe they'd think twice before giving TWI another cent of their money or another minute of their time.

Freedom, a new life, a new perspective about God and the Bible An opportunity to love all people, to serve from something as basic as a warm greeting in the morning to saying thank you and please, not being a false servant in a group only to become a leader. A wonderful chance to get closer to my family, that family from which I distanced myself because they did not participate in the ministry.

Btw, those letters demonstrate the Victor Wierwille was indeed a cult leader who used (at least) emotional abuse. I am listening to Steven Hassan's most recent YT video. Which includes an interview with Nori Muster, who had been involved in the Krishna cult and wrote a Cult Survivors Handbook.

Greasespot Cafe always used to come up first!! Looks like the cafe isn't so popular now. Just the old-timers left. If TWI is still going, there are still going to be people who need what the Cafe has to offer. Need to boost our profile a bit. How?

In case anyone is confused, I'd like to clarify. oldiesman confirmed there was a lawsuit that was filed. He did not confirm the lawsuit had merit or that it was factually correct. But, as a point of history, he confirmed that people were saying that at the time.

socks! We have a sighting So funny about the parallel elderly groups. We do have an R&R splinter group going on - I do think it must stand for Rest Home and Rehab my take is the brain trust probably all saw the matinee show for The Jesus Revolution and had an epiphany. But the people would rather see the Jesus Revolution than PLAF-T Why? Because Christianity is for the masses not the brasses. And Jesus in peoples hearts is better than a fat lie about “The Teacher” chewed up in 4 different cow stomachs and regurgitated for the world once more. Peace.

The Hiding Place...Corrie Ten Boom