imbus

Bramble, I totally agree. I wouldn't want this on my enemies. The devistation of all this is so huge that it's like viewing the Grand Canyon for the first time. It can't be real and certainly to big to comprehend. I do not minimize the enormity or intensity of sadness and loss of life. I am truly sad for all the victims of this tragedy. I too once depended on the Govt. for Assistance. And I do not condon death for those that do. What I am saying is that this is an oppertunity for life anew for those that have tried and couldn't get a leg up socially because of where they lived and the color of their skin. I lived in Lousianna as a WOW. I saw first hand the ill-treatment of the poor and folks of color. . I also know how the local Parrishes(run by wealthy white buisness men) Kept the rent high, minimum wage in place just to keep the town segragated. The better housing and income went to the white folks. So what I'm trying to say is that amist all the sadness new oppertunities will make itself available for some folk to get what they couldn't get because of there local. Also challange them to believe that they don't have to be poor. That they are better then there circumstances. I am totally in favor of getting people back on there feet for a better life no matter who it is.

I was talking to my sister today and we got on the topic of accountability. We finally narrowed it down to, 1. Individual responcibility. Folks new the danger of living in an area that was under sea level. Just like Cal. and the Fault line that is there. 2. Local Govt. responcibility for not insuring the safty and well being of its citizens .They knew a potentially life threating situation was going to happen but did not know when. They were neglegent in being proactive. 3. Federal reponcibility for failure to act in a timly manner to secure and support life after the fact. My sister said it is like the Tower of Babel. It has displaced alot of folks that are in one way or another have assisted living, giving them a new begining, to start fresh and maybe change the "family of origin" cycle. Those that have been dependent on the Govt. for there livlihood. I do recognize the horror of all this and no matter the individual condition, this is the saddest thing to date to see. MY sympothies to all the families regardless of race ,gender,status ect.

I know oldies can be a pain in the butt but I veiw his views as the ying and yang of spirituality. With his opposition it clarifies and find tunes that which is completly compassionite,graceful and a few more Godly attributes... to my understanding. Without his opposition as antaginistic as it is, it helps to logically push circumstances to it compassionate conclusiuon. With his imput it certainly allows for me to make an informed decsion to keep pursueing the God of my understanding and not his. The fact that he is done argueing for th weekend lets me know he take pleasue in being who he is. Argumentive and unreasonable. And that is O.K. You have to take a good look at the conterfit of a thing to be able to see the purity of the athentic. Thanks Oldies for making clear again the difference. I think I'll keep my God and leave your to your own demise. Have a good weekend!

Rascal, I'm sorry for the emotional hell you must of went through. No human being has the right to infridge there beliefs in such personal matters. TWI knew no boundries and respected none.

Oldies again we meet. Free will...I agree. BUT...Free will that was heavily influenced by fear motivation, mis-information, shame based teachings, we against them mentality and I can go on. Your free will to continue to support TWI ...has it not been influenced byTWI? Or is your sence of self so spiritually based that you know inatly that TWI is the Word of God incarnete via an organization. You know it makes me think of an historical account the world was for ever enfluenced and changed by. A little country in Eastern Europe that through mis-information, fear motivation and arrogance decided to terminate Jews, Christians etc... and tried to conquer the world. The whole nation was behind the belief that Aryains(?) are the superior race. My God who taught them such a thing? Why would a nation surcum to taht belief. I guess it was something they just new and made a deliberet choose (freedom of will) to act on it ...without any influence whatsoever from an "outside reference or source". Granted "freedom of will" is a vital element in taking ownership of ones action. But the ability to make good informed decisions rest on the info recieved and pondered. So that a persons "freedom of will" expression is not harmful to self or otheres. When that info is misrepresented (the Bible) and used as a means to manipulate and control... under the aura of godliness or Gods will, who is to blame for actions taken? (Knowing full well that we are not all knowing and need a "reference point for truth" outside of ourselves) I believe that the messaenger should shoulder the majority of the reponcibility especially when a public trust has been given and violated.

Smurfett, You are in a wonderful place and yet the most terrify place too. You are moving forward and questioning everything. With that comes some subconscience baggage. Fear, self-doubt, shame and a bunch more emotions. Glad you started the journey. In my quest for groundedness, in the beginning ,I wish I had made peace with uncertainty. I didn't know if I would make it through to the otherside of spiritual limbo and come out o.k. Smurff, Trust that God will show you what YOU need. Not what you think you need. The Creator is very individual. Be open to the univese. Another words don't limit the avenues for which God will enlighten you by. Since I have not limited the creator to just the Bible, boy has God gotten BIGGER, full of acceptance and most of all, a true source of Love. (What was I thinking) Anyway...be at peace cause you will find your way...HOME.

I've been away for a while... what ever happened to Harvy Platig? Wasn't he V.P at one time? Or did he get caught too doing the "wild thing"?

Again thinking about Mrs. W. She was the WWII generation where devorce was out of the question, stand by your man was a motto to live by and of a German background .Where male dominance was paramont and submission an accepted way of life for women. I'm sure she was so schooled in keeping quite and just suport what ever the latest temperment was or is of her male counter part. In this day and time her behavior would not be acceptable .(Praise God). So I am not the critic of why she didn't take a stand. She did. In the only way she new how and Believed in. Even if she was able to leave with the kids at any given time...Don't you think that VPW would have canived ways to distroy her reputation and label her pssesed? Think about it. What she did or failed to do was probly the hardest decisions she has ever made ...looking at the long term effect. And I bet some of the decisions she made was feared based. How can it not be.

30 yrs.? Jesh!!! P.F.A.L 76-Miami Fla. W.O.W 77-Ames Iowa/80-Leesville LA. Come to think of it I moved every year that I was in TWI. Twice some years. Would I do it over again? Yes cause at the time TWI gave me a reason bigger than myself to stay alive. At the time I was contemplating ending it.

This past week I attended a church that was absolutly wonderful. It consisted of all types of people but perdominatly Gay/Lesbian. The minister in my opinion was the most loving and accepting minister I have ever met. His sermon was powerful about being yeilding in insignifacant matters. At the end they offered communion and was so moved by the cerimony I just cried deeply inside. There was no pressure to give money, become a memeber, or attend. They did not give me a card to sign and just said "Go in Peace". The Church abeyance was like a warm comforter on a cold winter nite. I felt overwelmed emotionally because all that I had experianced about Christianity was so different from that moment. There was a love and acceptance I have never known or experianced in a community of "believers". Last week was the most powerful moment to date with Christianity.

Varity is the spice of life. Today Toaism with a splash of New Age. Tomarrow it might be Chakra clearing with a bit of Deepak and meditation. Saturday Animism with a smug ritual for good measure. Sunday AA and an Evangelical Gay /all ethnic group church. I think that covers the journey. I find that spirituality comes in different expressions. Much like a kalatiscope. One true source(light) but many ways to reflect it(colors). We are multi- dementional beings.

Thanks Ted! I have admired Mrs. W for years. There is a essence about her that words will never be able to communicate. Her fortitude and temperence...again...no words. If there was ever a women that was able to forgive and move on ...I think it would be her. I think she was able to endured much because she knew her God. More so than her husband ever did. God Bless You Mrs.W...Real BIG!

A closed mind with a dash of arrogance does it for me.

I belieive there is no truth...just stories that folks have built belief systems arround. The Bible, Koran, LD Saints etc... I'v learned from my experiance with TWI to never ever, ever put all my aggs in one basket. I have a bumper sticker on my car that reads," God is to big to fit inside any one religion"....Bible included!

"God handed down the truth, and the Devil said,"Let me organize it." Where there is ego you will always have division. It's interesting that the Far Eastern religious Philosophies have very little if any judgement about eachother or outside beliefs; i.e Christianity. Their whole system is to strive twards a onement with God , nature, soicity and eachother. They just figure that when there is misunderstandings or questionings of "What is life?", it's comming from that persons level of consciousness. Nothing is ever taken personally. There goal is personal enlightenment, first and formost.. What is Christianities goal? We live in a society of Materialism. And everyhting in advertisement is geared to feed the ego,i.e instint gradification. Christianity even in its purist form is Doomed from the very start. We in this Western society are way to self-involved and ego based. It only takes one person to divide. So ..."Why division?" I think we can learn soomething from Hinduism or Toasim. Why do they seem to generate more Peace then Christians? What is it that they understand about life and living that we in the Western Hemisphere don't understand? Without being a critic of what is so different in beliefs...Why not be the seeker and ask, "What makes for the harmony they expierance!" I think living in the U.S.A is a great thing. But I also believe it has its disadvantages too. Spirituallity takes hard work in our culture/society and not everyone is honest and up for the task. Especially if its at the expence of ego.

This thread is most disturbing to me...which is good. I hadn't thought about DWA in over a decade but boy did it play a role in how I viewed life and people. Today I still have residual effects of its influence. Good vs. evil, 5 sences vs. spiritual insite. Any kind of epiphanies that I might recieve today are minimally influenced by all this garbage. I'm glad to say that the hold has become less and less with the more exposure to different belief systems and allowing for what resinates with me ...I allow experiance. Thank for the mental berometer.

EXIE and Mr.D. My deepest sympathy for your losses. Mr.D, I know not the feeling of sudden loss but can only amagin the senclessness and anger that would be felt. Know that you are loved and supported. Exie, My father died without the resolve of somany issues. He was incapable of being honest and taking responcibility for his behaviors. When he passed my whole life flashed before me in relationship to him.. The traumas, abuse and lies. It's like my life stopped and I could not shake the belief and hope for a happy ending. When I buried my father I burnt a letter I wrote to him and put it in his urn. Giving back to him the baggage that I carried for him, by him and because of him. So when ever my mind drifts back to my life in relationship to him, I remember that day alone with his ashes and say "This is not my stuff...This is yours." I hope this helps with the memories that do flood your mind. Know too as with Mr.D, you are loved and supported. Namaste

SOOOO...If I put my own finger in my ear...Would that be giving myself an "ear full?" Fearology...The study of finger in ear. Not to be confused with Samology(ear to ear or finger to finger) -->

Ego is a very interesting arbitrator. It seizes the oppertunity to place itself in the position of power and control, to reach its ultimate crave...to have more. I believe there where those who started out with good intentions to serve BUT got caught up in the competitive qwest for more. To ego...MORE makes one feel better about self. We all know just how fragil the ego can be. Agos left to its own energy result in what TWI was and continues to be. When you have an organization that is ego based then in the lives of the particapants its "Lord of the Flies". You can't help but wonder if the possibilities for a ego free community could ever exist. I think not. There will always be somone in the lot whose craving for more will over step the boundreies of others.

I'm glad to say that I didn't stay to follow LCM. I was in the 15th corps when V.P died and when POP came out, it was my final year. At that time LCM was busy with dancing and acting out the "Role of a Believer"(Personally I think his dance with The Deobolos was a metaphorical prelude on a sub-conscience level believing he was Jesus Christ incarnate.) His arrogance scared me and "I'm meek, praise My holy name" spoke louder then whatever he taught. I had signed up for a delayed entry program to go on active duty in the military. I left in Oct. after graduation. Thank God for that decision cause it forced me out of TWI and into a grow up and think for yourself mode. I had no contact or influence for 6mo. Just enough time to alter my thinking patterns and to think O.D green. I am sad for those who suffered under his rule. After the POP and my Way Corpes experiance, recovery from TWI has been a long process. I can't amagin having to recover from LCM and his tyranny. Godbless those that have fought to get control of their lives and are able to live authentically without shame or guilt. Namaste

If it's to be...It's up me! Boy if that isn't a codependent statement. "God has no feet but our feet to walk among the almost dead." Talk about placing undue shame if you don't speak Gawd's Wouid. Have a Happy HouseHold Holiday. Arrrg! "All nine all the time". Bullshi@. How do you walk that anyway? "Speak in tongues much." WHY? How can S.I.T build you up when your limb leader has just tore you a new one. Ohhh... spiritually...Nuts! Don't get me started. It is those damn cliche that ruminate more in my head then the actual Bible. Now that's brainwashing.

Here, here Exie...I too find it difficult to read and there are times I can't read it at all. But I sure love reading about it. Different theologins "workin dahw woud". That is absolutly fun to me.

There are no absolutes with "The Word". It is all subjective. The Bible however holds some wonderful truths. "Da Word" according to VPW is his private interpretaion of The Bible. Boy, once you understand that then you can start spiritually embracing those truths for yourself. It does however takes work on the Pschy to get past the instilled fear if you Throw out "The Word", and start anew with the Bible. For some of us that inslilled fear may last a life time and you may never be able to read the Bible.

Nope! I heard of some guy in India doing something from a train as he was leaving that city. "What was it now???." "Oh yea... Strech forth thine hand!" I always thought how selfish of that guy to leave when he could have stayed and helped more people. The witness of that one lady alone would have turned the "tide of unbelief" around so more people could have "recieved Gods blessing." That story alone always gave be a bad taste in my mouth. So many questions and no answers about that story. Was it VeePee who was in India or someone else. Anyway VeePee played a great game.

Goey... :D-->