BikerBabe

Why not stop in the live chat one night and just ask the ladies yourself? I know of a couple that come in there that VP drugged and raped without consent. If you are really interested and not out to point a finger, I'm sure they would be more than happy to talk to you. I'm not naming names here, they can identify themself to you if they feel up to discussing all VP put them thru. It's not my place to put their names out there without prior permission. I've seen from your posts that you seem to be a good person Eagle, that's why I am responding to you. Please, come in chat and visit with us in the evenings when most are in.

Last I heard they were living up north and still in. This was quite a few years ago though, so hopefully someone else who knows them will have more current info for you.

God Bless Sheriff Joe!!! Don't belive all the media hype you read about him, the truth of it isn't as it reads. Everyone man, woman and youth on his chain gangs have added their name to his list to be able to go out and work. NONE of them are made to do it, they request to be put on the chain gangs to get some time outside. The pink underware wearing was started due to all the theft of jail 'undies' when perps left the jail. It's helped saved us taxpayers quite a bit since he started the program. Some years ago Joe even put in video cameras in the intake and booking areas and broadcast it live on the net. Anyone who wanted could go to the website and watch to see no perps were mistreated as they were claiming. The whiners then said that was wrong to do and the pressure was kept on till he took them down. Now again they can whine about how bad it is and there is no video to prove them wrong. I used to watch quite often and never saw any of them treated bad. I did see one go off on the 5 guys booking him in to the jail and they quickly got him down and strapped to a chair, so he couldn't take any more swings at them. When he started spitting at them, they put a hood on his head. I saw nothing wrong with that and he deserved what he got. These are NOT good people in jail folks. They are the people that are raping, robbing and killing the people of Phoenix. They are more than aware of what tent city is like before they did the crime. With the massive crime over the past years, especially now that we are getting overun by illegals, what is Joe to do? He's got them in the same tents our military uses and there are cooling fans attached. There is no more room in the jail, so tent city picks up the excess. Also, only convicted perps are put in tent city, those waiting for their day in court are in the jail.

I have Crohn's, a Crohn's related skin disease 4 out of every million Crohnies get, Crohn's related joint pain/arthritis, IBS, Fibro and get bad migraines. I know Prednisone intimately. Nasty drug, but ya gotta admire it's side effect of instant death. LOL. Pred is really a good drug for you to start on, as it will stop the inflammation quickly and get you feeling better. Keep in mind though, after 3 days of use, your entire immune system glands do shut down and you become dependant on the drug. When it's time to get off of it, you have to do a very slow taper to avoid the bad withdrawals it will cause. I have always done the varied taper and been able to stop it's use fairly easily compared to other detoxs I've done off much more addictive drugs I take daily to lower my tolerance to them. A varied taper is just taking your set dose, then the next day taking 1 to 5 mg less. (The higher your dose, the higher the drop in mg is the rule of thumb doing a detox/taper. The lower the dose, the lower the drop.) The 3rd day you take the set dose again, the 4th you take the lesser dose. Vary back and forth like this for 5 days. On the 6th day, which will be a less mg dose, take it and then stay at that mg dose for the next couple weeks. Then drop your dose again over the course of 5 days. Most find this easier than just dropping 1 to 5 mg immediately and staying at that dose. The longer you stay on Pred, the more side effect you will have. Bad temper, violent outbursts, constant hunger and it's related weight gain, calcium/bone loss, kidney/liver problems, the list is quite long. Make sure your doc does blood tests to check all your levels every few months to make sure all is ok inside you. I don't know about the other drug you were given, I've never taken it. I have no insurance or medical help, so I am not able to afford the drugs I should be on daily and only take Lortab 10's, Soma (and Pred as needed). I manage to stay somewhat pain free and can at least sit at my puter all day taking those meds. I'd say try the meds. You won't know what side effects you will get until you do. Everyone with immuno problems reacts differently to the various meds and treatments out there for us. Feel free to stop in chat too if you'd like to talk more. I'm in there almost every night lurking around and picking on Too Tall when he stops in. Heh.

The way chat works is this. You use a chat client (java in this forum's case) to access the chat server. If you lose your connection, you sometimes will leave a 'ghost process' which makes it seem as your nick is still there. When you try to go back in to chat, you have to use another nickname until your original one 'dies off' and goes away. If you were in there and lost your connection, then I wouldn't worry about this happening. If you were not in there and this happened, then I would change your password. When you chat, you have routers between your computer and the chat's server that you go thru. You can drop to a DOS window and do a 'tracert' and it will list out all the routers between your computer and the chat's server computer. If one of those routers burps, you will lose your connection/route and have to go back into chat, sometimes leaving your 'ghost' in the process. This is nothing to be concerned about and happens to everyone. The only time to get concerned is if you were not there and when you tried to enter chat you got the message you were already there. Dialup users have this happen more often than those on broadband.

Those pics were taken near where I live in Phoenix. I live on the 2nd floor and sit next to a big sliding glass door. I have fun watching the dust storms move in. We are about 1/2 mile from the big buildings uptown and once this storm hit, I could no longer see them when I looked out! The winds were 50 mph the local news said.

When dealing with Chronic diseases, such as the ones I have, a health plan would get you basically nowhere with doctors. Unless they are assured they will be paid, a working wage, for their ongoing services, they won't help you. I've dealt with docs having no insurance, then getting ignored, called a liar, a drug seeker or crazy. I looked into such health plans and docs still weren't receptive. When I finally got on state insurance, then later insurance thru a husband's job, I got tests run, diseases found, surgery done and meds given out for the pain and other problems they cause me. IF you have no health probs and plan on seeing your doctor once a year for a checkup, I would think the cost of the office visit would be less than the combined monthly payments to this plan for the year. If anything major is found though, you can be assured plans like this don't pay anywhere near what real insurance does. My main objection is they rave about saving you money .. but do they? I think MrsDoc explained it very well in her post. You can end up losing your shirt with these plans and end up with destroyed credit once all the unpaid medical bills hit it.

TWI and LCM are on RipOffReports, check under the Bally's threads. They have been mentioned there 2 or 3 times by Lorraine, one of the site's consumer advocates. There have been mentions of those reports in threads on this forum at least twice in the recent past that I've read too. Since I know both the EDitor and Lorraine, I can assure you they are both real and are not afraid to speak the truth. I'm one of ED's advocates, but don't often deal with the medical threads. I will attempt to reply to you here though, since you obviously have declined my offer to speak more in chat tonight and posted in the forums instead. Now on to your company. It is an MLM/Pyramid Scheme. It's got 2 to 3 pages of reports on it, which is more than most companies will get if they aren't well known .. and your company isn't. They aren't a WalMart, Dell or KMart, so you can't even put them in the same league. You are accusing the people who wrote ROR's of not being able to read. All good and well. Now respond to why once they joined the plan, they could find NO doctors or dentists, from your list in their area, that honored the plan. After requesting a cancel of said service, they were then put thru hoops trying to get a refund. This is not good business any way you look at it. Most never received their refund either, even after faxing their info as requested to the company. So now you are coming in here and doing a post, trying to convince ex cult members that your company is a good thing to join and you question it when they resist? We've been ripped off by TWI, do you really expect us to blindly join an MLM? Or do you feel we are gulliable enough we may not question or research the company and you will benefit by making 200 bucks off each person you can get to join up. Funny too how at Ameriplan meetings they ask you to hold all questions till the end, then usually don't answer those who have some. Wow, sounds like PFAL all over again to me! You also talk about how wonderfully cheap this plan is. Are you making sure everyone you talk to is aware of the fact it is NOT health insurance? It's a health PLAN that only pays a set amount of the doctor or dentist's bill. It's not health insurance coverage where you pay a small co pay when you go visit your doctor or get your meds. Tell me. How much would each doctor visit cost me on your plan? Can I see the same doctor I've been established with for the past 6 years? How many drugs are on your formulary? How much will each script cost me? My meds retail run about 100 to 500 bucks each script a month. (Total of 1800 to 2000 a month, if I could afford to be on all I should be.) Health insurance would pay all but between 3 to 20 bucks of the cost for each script. How much would I be paying per script with your health plan? Will you give me a list of the doctor's names that honor your plan before I join and let me call all of them to verify they will take it? When I am put in the hospital so a surgeon can remove another foot of my small bowel the Crohn's has destroyed with scar tissue, how much of my hospital stay and surgery costs will your company cover and pay for? How much will I have to pay? Will you give me a list of hospitals which take your plan before I join up along with the doctors names? Are you telling people that once they give any hint of interest in your company that they will be talked into buying in as a broker at 95 to 300+ bucks (not all of this is refundable) if at all possible? When recruting becomes more important than sales of product, people must start to question the company's motives. When a company makes you pay to get a job with them, that is a major red flag. The employee should get paid for doing a job, not pay the company to work for it! You are telling people you sign up to be brokers that it will cost them 35 bucks a month, every month correct? They are also responsible for all of their long distance phone bills when they call leads (the company does provide some leads after you use up your warm market [family/friends] at 10 bucks a lead), the cost of all advertising, etc. Last, you mention the BBB. I'm assuming everyone reading this isn't stupid and are aware of the fact that businesses pay to join the BBB. That's how the company gets their income to pay their employees. Do you really think the BBB is going to say how bad a company is and lose it's income? The only time they give a bad mark to companies is long after other sources have exposed it for bad business and then they don't leave complaints public very long. They also can't do anything more than talk to the company for you, they have no legal authority to make them comply. Read the ROR on the BBB and you will see many who were ripped off by only checking BBB files and finding nothing on a company. ROR reports are written by consumers, giving their version of their dealing with a bad company. They are never edited (except for dirty words being ***'d on occasion and email addys and competitor links removed) and they are never taken down, no matter what. The owner has been sued many times by companies that were exposed for their bad behavior and he has proven time and time again to the courts that he doesn't put the reports up and everything on his site is done legally and he has prevailed.

|337 5p3@k? WTF w0u|d 7h@7 b3? Nah, never heard of it. LOL.

Quality of life. Very easy to answer. The times when I have a doctor who's not intimidated by the DEA and will give me the amount of painkiller I need, every day, to stay out of chronic pain. I have such a doctor for the past few years, but it has not always been that way. I've already informed him he's not allowed to retire before I die, because the memories of passing out from the pain are still too recent in my head. He just smiles and gives me a big hug. :) May God always bless that sweet man for all he's done for me.

Anorexic? Is that my cue to check in CW? I swear sometimes, if one more person asks me if I'm anorexic I'm gonna SCREAM! Yes, I'm 5 feet even and 84 pounds. I figure that's better than some years ago when I dropped down to 72 pounds .. which they don't seem to 'hear' of course. They tell me to eat more or give me suggestions on foods to eat. This is even after I tell them I have Crohn's Disease and my guts are so full of scar tissue that I don't absorb any nutrition from the food I eat, no matter what it is. It doesn't matter what I eat, if I'm flaring, which I almost always am since I can't afford the meds I should take to get into remission .. I'm not gonna gain weight. So don't sweat it ladies. We skinny people get the same crap from the nannies of the world. They are going more and more after what people eat, now that they have pretty much destroyed the world of smokers by making them 3rd class citizens and made the legal habit something illegal to do in most public places. I post on a few smokers rights forums and we are seeing the nannies/antis all now going after people who are overweight and using the same psudo-science strategy they did to make smokers hated. They have no morals. They use false medical reports, false tests, just whatever it takes to 'prove' their point. Their latest goal is to get very high taxes put on soda, just like they did cigarettes. *sigh* There is no reasoning with this type of person. They know what is best for your life and are very outspoken about it. I wish they would all crawl back into the hole they came out of and leave everyone alone to live their lives the way they want. When we want their opinion, we know how to ask for it. Tofu anyone? *shudder*

Mr Freud, I'm one of ED's consumer advocates over on ROR. As you know, there is no way to leave contact info on ripoffreport for the lady that did that rebuttal. I can't reveal who that advocate is obviously, as there is nothing allowed but first name and city given out on that forum, to protect the people who file a report. I do know her though, we live in the same area and I can tell you she posted it for exactly the goal it accomplished. So people would find Craig's name, dig a little deeper and find this forum. ROR's get found on Goggle very easily, so it was a good place to do a post ... on a Bally's thread. If you ever posted on the usenet cult groups in the past, chances are we know each other already. You sound like you get around the net like I do. Those who find ROR are usually searching for something, so I tend to believe your story. My 2 cents everyone.

Goey, I'm so sorry for your loss. As you know from our talks in chat, I had chickens in the past and spoiled them rotten. I used to love to sit on the steps of the porch with big old BigFoot (25 lb rooster) in my lap and pet him as you would a cat. He followed me around like a little puppy dog too when I was in the yard. They really can become beloved pets as well as give you nice fresh eggs every day. BIG *hugs* my friend.

Hey hon. Add me to the long list of those missing you and always praying for you to be safe. Glad to hear you got some R & R recently. :) Keep your head low!

My only way around is via mountain bike or wheelchair since we don't have a car. My bike cost 1500 and that was with a hefty discount due to being friends with the shop owner. I see the same bike online for 2800. This is for the frame first, then he built the bike from there, which is the only way I'd consider having one to ride. Bikes that come premade are normally cheaper, but you get what you pay for and trust me, if you are planning on riding more than a couple of miles a day, it's worth paying the extra to get a bike that is lightweight, able to withstand city and rough riding and be kind to your body at the same time. My bike weighs total about 5 pounds. Make sure you get one that at least has shocks on the front, but that won't really give you a pleasant ride. You really need a full suspension bike if you want to not feel every bump and rock you encounter while out there. (OK, I did feel the curbs I jumped yesterday a little and my shoulders are reminding me of them every time I move today, but that was my own fault for doing it. LOL. I tend to give it my all when I ride.) If you can't afford a full suspension, then get one of the seats that has a shock absorber type thing below the seat on the pole it attaches to the bike with. They really help the ride be smoother and I used one on my old bike which only had front suspension. It still was no where near the comfort of the bike I have now. I have the Santa Cruz Juliana. The frame is made especially for women. It has a shorter base so we don't have to stretch our body to reach the handlebars. I also got rid of the torture seat from hell that most bikes come with these days and always ride with what I call a fat butt seat. They are wider and nicely padded so when you spend a few or more hours riding, you don't get a sore bottom. I raise the handlebars up as far as they will go too so I am not forced down to reach them, which will end up making your back and shoulders sore if you aren't riding to race. You can probably go with a cheaper derailer since you don't plan on racing and get wheels in the mid range for price for the same reason. Make sure the tires are good and sturdy with a lot of 'bumps' on them so you get good traction. Also make sure they are close together, so you don't get caught going over uneven surfaces and get tossed off the bike. (Yep, found out the hard way on an older bike years ago and broke my foot after a couple of good falls on a new set of tires, which ended up being returned the next day.) Here is a pic of my bike. Thanks again Sharon, I praise your name every time I am out riding it. :) If you look at the right side of my glasses (as you look at the pic) you can see a round black object. That is my rear view mirror. I won't ride without it and it's saved my butt from getting run over by cars (they rarely watch for bikers) more times than I can count. You can get them for 10 bucks or less at most good bike stores. They come either for glasses or for helmets if you don't wear specs. I run a side mirror too for added safety. A decent pair of gloves with the palms gel padded run 40 to 50 bucks and they really save wear and tear on your hands when you ride for hours and press against the handlebars. I also find the leather palm on them are great for getting a good grip on the wheels of my wheelchair and help me control it easier, so they have a dual purpose in my case. Ignore the lock, those aren't the best kind, I'm only using that one until I can afford to get a pair of the handcuff locks they make. They are around 100 bucks and are almost impossible to cut thru or be picked open. We've lost 2 bikes and a scooter from other types of locks over the years and the handcuff ones are the only type that have kept us from losing any other loved possessions on wheels. Until I get mine, I don't ride alone and either hubby or I stay outside a store with our bikes while the other one goes inside to ensure no one can get them. To keep my pants from getting caught in the sprockets I have a reflective strap I wrap around the bottom of them that attaches with velcro. I'm not sure what they cost, mine was a gift from the bike shop owner years ago, but I don't think they are very expensive. Some bike stores sell 2nd hand bikes and you can find some good deals. They go quick though, so you may have to keep checking in or have them call you when they get a bike in that's your size. Sorry to burst your bubble, but I really don't think you will find anything decent to ride at the cost you said. My original bike I got 8 yrs ago I went cheap on to make sure I'd enjoy riding and while it was only 500 bucks, it was so heavy I couldn't really ride far due to all the weight, nor could I pick it up and carry it anywhere. Please feel free to drop me a line in PM if I can help you with getting your new bike. If I don't know the answer, I can easily call Erik, the owner of the store I deal with and get his professional opinion. He's very knowledgeable and is the type to teach new riders all he can to help them make informed choices on equipment for their bike.

They sound just like a normal fart. Loud enough to hear plainly when she's sitting on my shoulder (but not much further than that) and proceed the coming 'poop'. Cleo is good though and does her best to miss me when she poops and drops it over my shoulder onto my chair where I keep a towel or something to catch it on.

You haven't lived till you have a bird that farts. LOL. Cleo is a master at it and lets them loose with such an innocent look on her face. :)

Redneck Girl Bellamy Brothers Redneck girl likes to cruise in Daddy's pickup truck And a redneck girl plays her hard when she's down on her luck Living for a friday afternoon She's gonna show one ole boy that we can move And I pray that someday I will find me a redneck girl Redneck girl likes to stay out all night long She makes sweet rock n' roll while she listens to the country songs She's waitin' for that moment of surrender Her hands are calloused but her heart is tender And I pray that someday I will find me a redneck girl Oh, give me a give me a give me a redneck girl Give me a give me a give me a redneck girl Oh, give me a give me a give me a redneck girl Give me a give me a give me a redneck girl A redneck girl got a name on the back of her belt She's got a kiss on her lips for her man and no one else A coyote's howling out on the prairie First comes love then comes marriage And I pray that someday I will find me a redneck girl Yeah, give me a, give me a, give me a redneck girl

Now, now Rhino, you've been hanging in chat with the ladies long enough to know we are all 29again. It's you men that are the old farts. :P Welcome to the cafe RumRunner. Feel free to stop in chat at night and join us sometime. Most of us are of the 'boomer' generation.

TWI was bad for both sexes. They made us all into people with glass hearts. This is seen by the countless men who abused their wives and children, who I don't think ever would have had done that, had they not become involved in TWI. The women in turn, learned ungodly submission and thought it Godly, which turned us into instantly obeying, non questioning, mindless, sex toys for the mens pleasure and the target for their stress and anger, which for some turned violent. The normal feelings non TWI people have that stuff, would make them run from such things, we had been taught to turn off or ignore totally. I learned about glass hearts from a book I read. The woman was dying after being shot and talking to her friend. She had been forced to be a hit woman, not for money, but to save the life of her daughter, who was being held in a secret location by a bad man. Here is what was said after being asked if she believed in God: "He gave me a glass heart. I did not ask for it, the glass heart. It was a gift. Hard is the glass heart. Nothing moves through it. It has no fragrance or softness. Cold to the touch. It hears no music, sees no light ... ...And yet it is fragile too, so very fragile. When my daughter smiled ... my heart crazed. When she laughed, it shivered almost to breaking. When she kissed my cheek, it shattered into powder. Hard .. and fragile. I needed both - to survive. And, in the end, to be redeemed. God is grace, even to the damned. One of His endless paradoxes." We all developed glass hearts to survive. Women tend to be more emotional than men normally, so now as we get beyond TWI teaching and thinking, we feel that fragile part of our hearts all the more. Something that someone who's lived a normal life might not think anything of, can shatter our hearts with one beat. Things that would shock and fill with horror a normal person, we think nothing of and let it bounce right off us. Not sure if anyone will agree with me, but every time I read that book, that part reminds me of my TWI days and how I had to harden my heart to keep from upsetting them more than I already did by just being me. If anyone can relate to it, then it was worth digging out the book and typing this out for you. :)

I have family still in, so can't give out real name, sorry, but I'm sure y'all understand. Those who I know, already know it. :) 1. What time is it: -7 GMT (3 am) 2. Name: BikerBabe 3. Nickname: BB 4. Piercings: 6 each bottom of both ears, 1 on top of left ear 5. Recent Movie you've seen: haven't been to a movie in over 10 years 6. Eye color: green 7. Place of birth: midwest 8. Favorite food: anything that doesn't hurt as it goes thru my guts that day 9. Ever been toilet papering? TP is sacred to someone with Crohn's, we NEVER waste it!!! 10. Love someone so much it made you cry? yes Ever hate someone so much it made you cry? the man who murdered my 1st husband 11. Been in a car accident: 3 headons and a couple fender benders, none my fault 12. Favorite day of the week: they are all the same, get up, get on puter, get tired, go to sleep, get up next day, repeat 13. Favorite restaurants: can't afford to eat out 14. Favorite Flower: chocolate melts, flowers die, computers parts rock .. when given to me they keep me online and my link to the rest of the world is established 15. Favorite sport to watch: don't like watching sports 16. Favorite Drink: non liquour : coffee and pepsi liquor: can't drink alcohol anymore 17. Favorite ice cream: most dairy is a no no for my guts 18. Disney or Warner Brothers: huh? 19. Favorite fast food restaurant: can't afford to eat out 20. What color is your bedroom carpet: I sleep on an airbed on the living room floor 21. How many times you failed your driver's test? don't have a car, too expensive 22. Winter, summer, spring or fall: anything under 70 degrees and the Crohn's flares, so it has to be warm 23. Which store would you choose to Max out your credit card: no credit card 24. What do you like to do when you are most bored: talk in chat to my friends. play computer games, do email, surf the web, chat in IM, usually all at same time 25. Bedtime: whenever I get tired and the building is quiet, usually around 6 to 8 am 26. Favorite TV shows: don't watch much TV, A and E or Court TV crime shows if I watch via my WinTV card in my computer when he's at work, don't have a real TV 27. Last person you went to dinner with: don't remember, been too long 28. Ford or Chevy: can't afford a car 29. What are you listening to right now? quiet, hubby doesn't really like TV or music when he's home, awake or asleep 30. How many tattoos do you have: 5, if you separate out the S I T one, 3 if you don't 31. How many pets do you own: 2 cockatiels, Cleo (Pearly) and Elmo (Gray) 32. Which came first the chicken or the chicken egg? If I can get Elmo to figure out what he's supposed to do, he'll come first and then Cleo will lay the fertile egg .. last 3 times she has laid all infertile eggs. *sigh* Ideas on how to explain to a bird how to have sex are appreciated.

City life. Yep, low wages, high crime, no car. I call the cops at least once a week on someone in this complex who's going off their rocker at 3 am. Also called the night the SUV slammed into the Sedan in the case of road rage or drug deal gone bad and pushed it 4 car lengths sideways down the road, then one or the other shot off the gun. I can't say which one, by that time I was grabbing the phone off my desk (which sits directly beside the sliding glass door which was in the line of fire, if aimed up, we're on 2nd floor) and I was hitting the floor and telling the lady 'shots fired' and 'to get the squads rolling' as I gave her the details. Interesting night, not anything I care to repeat anytime soon. Cops never called me, so the perps never showed up bleeding or dead at a local hospital and must have gotten away. By the amount of fluids and car pieces left on our road though, both cars were almost if not all the way totaled. Hey Too Tall! Yeah, you know who you are. 6' 5" and 190 lbs, huh? 5' and 85 lbs here, so when we gonna arm wrestle to see which of us skinnies wins? Bwhahahaha. (David, did you *really* think I could pass that one up? No, I still haven't found the ladder yet, so yer safe for awhile me thinks. No, I'm still not ready to cut my hair so you can restring your fiddle bow, either. :P) Save a few pounds for me Tom! Only time in my life I hit 100 pounds was when I was 7 months or more pregnant and I'm not sure if that really counts. :)

Yes, some is done, more is needed. I hadn't heard about the Fire Chief being one of the group. I knew about the police officers that were and whom where fired by both Az. and Utah. I've read they are trying to get the land away from the church's possession and deed the different properties to the homeowners who wish to remain living there. Taking over the school district was wonderful! One titbit of info we heard recently on the news is that the men in the group were required to pay Warren Jeffs $1000.00 a month. If the male adults did not pay, they were kicked out of the group. How do they live with themself? The fear of being kicked out of the group makes them follow blindly and agree to all they are told to do. Getting kicked out is a much worse fear than the fear of going to hell. The ones that have said no, were kicked out of the church, lost their wives, their kids, their homes, their jobs and so the majority have so much fear, they won't do anything to upset the leader. Flora is one heck of a lady. I'd love to run into her one day and give her a great big hug and a thank you for helping all those young girls escape the hell they are forced to live in. I've been following all the stories on the azfamily.com website as they are put up over the past few years. I end up in tears every time I watch the videos or read the stories. They are gut-wrenching.

What is just as horrifying and sad is the young men who don't come from the top ranking families. Once they are around 18, they are forced out of the town/group onto the streets. We have some groups here in Phoenix who try to locate and help them, but it's hard when so many have grown up molested by the older men of the group, just like young girls, have been given no education and many are products of incest. The older men see them as too much competition for the young ladies. so their answer is to get rid of them. That way the top few men get all the sweet young girls for themselves, once they are around 13 to 14 years old, the age they deem old enough to marry. Doing anything against their 'rules' and upsetting Warren Jeffs will result in the husbands having their wives taken away and given to other men in the group. The church also owns all the land in the town, so they can be forced out of the homes they built on it if he deems their infraction severe enough. Same goes for jobs, they can lose those too .. well those that actually work and don't live off welfare to pay for their 20 to 40 kids. I must say it has worked well for generations. Not many of them will ever do a thing to raise an eyebrow and constantly toe the line.