penguin

TL Just like twi minimized Jesus and his role (since twi doctrine makes him absent and we take his place,) I agree that they also minimized the role of the Holy Spirit. Even God our Father was minimized to a genie-like wish/demand granter. It was only after I realized I was missing a relationship with Jesus Christ (because of listening to Christian music on the radio,) that I started feeling those pricks of conscience again. While in twi we were still very "me" centered. Since leaving one of my favorite statements I have heard from a fellow Christian is that, "Before I was born again, everything (including the Bible) was all about me, but now that I am born again, it is really all about HIM."

My first red flag (which there were plenty of other incidents that should have gotten my attention) was the continued emphasis by upper leadership on numbers, numbers, and more numbers of: people, subscriptions and abundant sharing. It was always us assistants (and coordinators) that were somehow failing when not as many people got way rag subscriptions or the boring sts tapes. Also,several situations presented itself where long standing believers who were having problems had to figure it out for themselves. I also remember getting concerned when things shifted from the integrity of the Word to the integrity of the ministry (something lcm started but rosie continued.)

Hi all! In all the years I was in twi, I never consciously "faked" speaking in tongues. Since leaving, one of the things I have realized was that my innie SIT was mechanical and something I felt obligated to do at times. I have been attending a charismatic church for the last several months--they believe in SIT and many people do (but not in the meetings-the meetings are always decent and in order---but not rigid like twi. FYI they only have prophecy during meetings and its NOTHING like I ever heard in twi!) Anyway, since working through some of the things from twi I have noticed that my SIT has completely changed and now flows easier, has more inflection and comes from praise and thankfulness. (Just have been thinking for the last several months that it was a very interesting observation.)

Ok Here's my two cents... I cringe to think/type this..but I too swallowed the junk--"Obey first time. If we don't train our children to obey first time then they won't hear God when He tells them to do something." I have repeated this when disciplining children. I would think it could cause them to resent God since that is why their parents are forcing them to obey immediately.

Congrats Raf!

Johniam, The more I consider the "grace administration" and the fact that the gospels are conveniently left out of it, the more I think vpw had to teach this in order to justify some of his behaviors. Even in the grace administration we will face the bema--a judgement seat. Even the epistles mention our works having to stand up to the fire. Sure its grace for those of us who truly ask forgiveness and repent--but I am sure we will still have to answer for ourselves. I am not saying we need to make it into heaven/paradise whatever on our own merit-I am just saying we may have some serious talking tos before we enter. Anyway Zix--great post!! Sorry for a derail

Hang in there amazing grace. I have been thankful that so far no one in church has freaked when I mentioned that I used to belong to twi. Normally I mention I was in a controlling abusive group before.

Skyrider, Tell congrats to those 3 newly free families! Amen to all of those reasons. They were all parts of why I left also.

All is well and good I guess if they just keep it(debt) quiet. The sad part is that they HAVE TO! Someone shouldn't have to feel that they have to hide things--be it starting your own business (but gettting a loan to do it) or even their own opinions! Hence the hypocrisy even of the regular innie since you have to appear to have the perfect twi sanctioned life with a perfectly renewed to twi doctrine mind.

So far we have had nothing but good things happen since we left!! The release of pressure was amazing! And yes it was scary to take the final plunge and actually say "See Ya!!" I am so glad I did it. I am almost a completely different person --and it has been less than a year since I left. Our Heavenly Father is so much bigger than twi made Him out to be and He is definitely not confined to only being concerned about twi's "faithful" Welcome to true freedom!

When I left, I had to realize that it was okay to NOT be busy doing something. I had to slow down and take care of me and my family for a while. It was also SOO strange not having someone to tell me what to do, what to study etc. I am still adjusting! I have realized how much I had shut God's still small voice out and I am learning to listen to Him again.

What blows me away is how me and so many others just sat there while things like this were said about people who had left twi or had something tragic happen to them. I just sat there and went "uh huh" in my head. It also shows how calloused most of us were while in twi--to not have sympathy or compassion for others and their families. The focus was always, "Where did they blow it?" (Even when an active corpse I knew died unexpectedly.)

What I have heard is that even the innies are saying loyboy had one thing right. He could hold your interest while he was teaching! Seems like the 3 teaching the video class are stiff and stuck to their chair. That would go along with the other more recent class with the syrupy sweet C**lters teaching.

Oldies very funny! Excie I will keep you in my prayers!! We have slightly similar situations and it has been interesting.

Sorry Dave and jaylawt--I have no info on Stan Tinsley. Twi never lets innies know when leader&$*# defects and I am out of the loop now anyway.

I did good at guessing the elite eight-got 7 of 8----but got totally screwed up with final four! So much for a few extra bucks! Oh well. At least most of the games have been exciting

Not to be a downer... But I do remember the high school students being told to be involved in community volunteering and school activities because it would look good on scholarship applications.

Hey all, Well I wasn't really referring to people teaching their personal experiences. What I was referring to was if you happened to mention a personal experience to a fellow twit or leader&$*# and how your experience would be blown off. The only valid experience in twi was "I learned this in the class and it helped my life or I started giving more $$ and now I have more abundance type of crap."

Thanks for being so gracious Chaz--I am the someone that made the "know-it-all" comment. I am sorry--I should only have spoken for myself not others in that department. I am still "decompressing" as you put it and am rather ashamed of how I have acted while in twi. For me personally, I definitely thought I knew everything and had everything in its own good or bad, black or white box. I am just starting to realize how I was and how I had classified everything. Please be patient with me! I haven't been out long and am just beginning in my re-evaluation of my beliefs/theology. I know I still have plenty of bad personality traits that were cultivated during my time in twi that were not there before. In all honesty I have a tendency right now to run fast if anything resembles twi because of my fear of being sucked in all over again. I have found that there are plenty of Christians out there who do love God and some know more about Him than I do. :o I have learned that things in life are not as cut and dry as twi said. I am sorry to have ever acted like a spoiled, demanding little brat in my prayer time with our Father. (Like I know more than He does about what I really need!) I am learning to trust Him to take care of the big picture instead of telling Him what to do all the time.

Shaz, Very good point! I hadn't thought of it from that aspect. We always had to be such know-it-alls while innies didn't we? Black and white, cut and dry. John that was one aspect of experience that we know from the Word would not be true while being innies since the dead are dead---so the area of apparitions is not really what I was referring to. I think there is plenty of room for God to work with us within the realms of what other people in the Bible experienced and/or at least things that would not contradict the Word. I was always told not to trust or expect any experiences on personal level. For the most part, only what God showed me while reading the Bible was valid-but even then could be shot down quickly by leadership. We really learned how to stifle and quench the holy spirit by putting God in such a tiny box.

I was thinking about something last night...and recalled how we used to tell people that any "personal experiences" of God couldn't be trusted, but only what the Bible said could be trusted and called true. (This was mostly 90's thinking) I don't want to debate the above statement--just want to ask you if you remember this being said (or something similar) and why you think twi would say it. What was ironic about the statement was the fact it was still taught that VPW heard an audible voice from God. (Something that couldn't be guaranteed by the Word to happen, but since it was vpw it was okay.) It would not have been acceptable for any of us peons to have this happen. Do you think twi taught this so they wouldn't have to explain people's experiences? Or maybe it was a way to prevent us from really been able to establish a true relationship with God? Maybe another way to keep our emotions out of the picture? Or maybe a way to prevent us from hearing the still small voice?

Well I thought I would give my 2-bit response. Got a lot of re-evaluating going on here. Is there room on one of the couches? I have a couple of boxes of girl scout cookies!

I took the PFAL class knowing about SIT in the 12th session. In fact, wanting to SIT was THE only real reason I took the class. No one would teach me anything about SIT and told me I would have to take the class. (Granted that I was a high school student and could only take a class they could put together in the summer--it took a year and a half before I could take PFAL.) The irony of it was that I was so shy and petrified to stand up and SIT in front of anyone that I read and re-read the holy spirit book as well as volume 2 of collaterals while taking the class. I spoke in tongues by myself in my room after session 5 or 6---to make sure I could do it before session 12! The only good thing about it was that I really understood a lot of that material so could lead others into SIT if they wanted--I never made them wait for the class!

On the day of Pentecost, some of the crowd responded and asked Peter what should we do? In Acts 2:38 He answers:Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. I believe the key word is REPENT-defined by Strongs as: 1.to change one's mind, i.e. to repent 2.to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins (emphasis mine) We have to turn away from and abhor (dislike strongly) all the behaviors at the beginning of this thread. If we really abhor them we will not continue doing them. Jesus said to repent (same Greek root word) because the kingdom of heaven was near. If we really make Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior--we are supposed to be a new creature-not stay in the same old sins. I think Jesus as Lord means more than an intellectual mental assent (Yes I used a twi term!) Mt 7 talks about how we will know a good tree by its good fruit. It also has the passage in verse 21-23 that says not everyone who calls Jesus Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven even those who did works in his name. Verse 23 says Jesus will tell some that "I never knew you, depart from me, those who work iniquity" Belle posted about the free gift we have been given. We don't really receive a gift until we do something with it.

I left right at 20 years. Could've done it sooner if I had openly talked to the spouse!