modcat5

The following was posted by TLC I am neither thrilled nor anxious to say what is to follows, as it is sure to draw more fire, but I feel compelled to make one more post. (And it may be my last.) The only "desperation" (if there is any) I sense might be here is the incessant efforts to derail any attempt to look at this issue from a new perspective, in defense of your already established position on it (and continued claim the "the Bible plainly says" what you and whomever is with you say it says.) What is plain, is that I am "late to the party" (though at this point, I somewhat detest even quoting those words.) Perhaps if I were to have propose the very same questions over two years ago that I've posted here recently, there would have been a more honest reception and consideration of them. However, I was most certainly not at the place two years ago in my own thinking and understanding that I am today. And believe it or not, I did read (though rather quickly) through this nearly the entire thread before ever posting here the first time (which I tried to make fairly obvious in my initial posts here...) My second post on this thread actually made reference to something in a post of yours, Raf, after which I brought up several questions (none of which engendered much of a response from anybody): Here was a another question in the next post: To thwart the accusation of having never stated something of my opinion, where I stood, or was approaching the issue from, I posted in plain language here: As I began to more carefully consider what was (and wasn't) being said or brought forward in this thread on the biblical doctrine of SIT, more questions (or rephrasing earlier ones) began to come to mind, which I then posted here: Raf responds to the post with (more a less) a restatement of his own position, and implies any effort to look at this another way is born of despartion: and here: and here: Which I spoke out against here: Which you poo-pooed here: (part 2, continues in next post...)

I waited a bit before sending this from Open to the Humor forum.

Agreed. In plainer language: If you want to discuss whether dispensationalism is the correct doctrine that should flow from the usage of oikonomia, do that here. If you want to discuss whether dispensationalism is evidence that the Bible is a bunch of hooey that people twist themselves into knots over in order to justify their faith, DO NOT DO THAT HERE. This is not the thread for it. That's what I meant.

For the record: There is a thread on Dispensationalism in the Questioning Faith subforum that can overlap with the discussion that has been started here. But the threads ARE DISTINCT and should be treated as such. If you want to discuss whether dispensationalism is a mechanism to make sense of conflicting scriptures, etc., the place to do that is in the other thread. If you want to discuss what oikonomia really means and whether dispensationalism is Biblically accurate, you can do it here or there, but THIS is the better thread for that discussion. In the Questioning Faith subforum, acceptance of the underlying authority of scripture is fair game. That aspect of the discussion is NOT fair game here. That's what distinguishes these two threads. So have at it!

Don't even pick up the bats, and keep your balls to yourself.

Ok, we're back. Some of the comments here have gotten quite personal. I'm just going to ask that folks exercise their maturity and refrain from that conduct. I'm not pointing fingers because I assume you know who you are and what you wrote. One post that went too far was deleted. Another that arguably went too far remains for no reason other than I found it difficult to separate fair critique from unfair. On another day I would have deleted it, but then it would have seemed like choosing sides. No need. You're all adults, and I know you are able to work through it. MRAP: If you think GSC is a cult, you are entitled to that opinion. You are entitled to express it. You couldn't be more wrong, but we are under no obligation whatsoever to explain to you how and why. We are an online community that you asked to join. We have norms and mores that have built up over more than 16 years of posting both here and on a predecessor site. People cite their TWI credentials here to document that they know about the matters they are addressing. That's it. Being Corps or WOW or Way Disciple or Advanced Class grad doesn't win anyone any GSC points. It does help us (readers) identify those who are speaking from personal experience v. those who are relaying what they heard. Some of what you guys have written to each other is utterly uncalled for and beneath the dignity of an adult on an internet forum. I get to decide whether the time I spent in TWI or studying the Bible was wasted, not you and not any other poster here. And if you do not know my career or my level of success in it, you have zero moral right to disparage my life on or off this board. Seriously, act your age. For the record, mine us under 50, and I am seriously not an angry person. But I can get riled up with the best of them, like the rest of them. A couple of other things. 1. Please stay on topic. If a thread is dedicated to a certain topic (like the REV Bible), then discuss the topic on that thread. Please don't ask someone on one thread to defend what he said on a different thread unless you are somehow relating the other thread to this one. 2. Some of us have identities that are completely secret on this forum. Others (like me) are completely open about who we are. And some, like DWBH, treat their ID as an open secret. As far as posting on the forum is concerned, we ask everyone to respect each other's self-identification by addressing them by their screen name and only by their screen name. Actually, that's more than an ask. Seriously, don't out anyone unless you KNOW for a FACT they are ok with it. I can't think of anything else other than to say play nice and stick to the topic.

Temporarily locking this thread for review. Will reopen soon. [Raf]

This is a placeholder for a thread introducing the GSC to new posters. I thought it would come in handy to have some easy-to-find advice and information. This will be updated, but I invite longtime users to include your own recommendations and new users to ask questions. For now, this will suffice: Greasespot Cafe exists to provide "the other side of the story" about The Way International. With very few exceptions, members of this forum are former followers of The Way. That is the ONLY generalization that is safe to make those who post here. Other than that, our experiences and views vary widely. To wit: Some of us hold a deep appreciation for the work and ministry of Wierwille. Others think he was a moral monster. It is possible to think BOTH, and some people do ("he was a lecherous so-and-so who taught some neat stuff"). Some people are involved with offshoots of TWI. Others are more mainstream Christians. A few hold completely different religious views (I think we have at least one Wiccan). A vocal minority are agnostic and/or atheist. Do not assume a fellow poster is a Christian until that poster has made it clear, and do not assume a fellow poster respects Wierwille's doctrinal legacy unless that has been made clear also. Wondering why posters have moved "so far from the Word," for example, will likely provoke some less than charitable feedback. Some of us think we've moved closer to the Word. Some of us think there IS no "Word" in the sense defined by TWI and/or Christianity. All views regarding TWI are welcome, but they are also subject to challenge, discussion and debate. We've tried hard to divide the forum into different sections to make it easier to find topics of interest. Most of these sections are self-explanatory. The Open Forum is for topics of general interest. "About the Way" is ... about TWI. About Wierwille. About Martindale. About Rivenbark. About the practices and experiences associated with TWI. We don't host discussions of politics on this board. We tried. It was too volatile to justify for our purposes. Get your fix elsewhere. Our doctrinal section is for discussions of doctrine. While it is open to everyone, the key in every doctrinal thread is to remain on topic. We recently started a subforum in the doctrinal section to isolate conversations with an agnostic/atheist bent. Feel free to peruse, participate, or avoid it like the plague. But whatever you do, stay on topic. If you don't know where a topic belongs, take your best guess and post it there. A moderator will move it if we think it's in the wrong place. The prayer room is not a place for debate. We have rules. They're a little out of date, but they give moderators a guide to resolving disputes. The Golden Rule applies here. Be respectful, and you'll be respected. But be careful: not everyone defines "respectful" the same way. You may feel it's respectful to tell me my opinions will send me straight to hell. I may feel it's respectful to tell you you're brainwashed and deluded. Take a breath, try to resolve your disputes amicably, and report a post or conversation to the moderators if you feel intervention is the best way to handle it. We used to have a LOT of moderators. Most are now inactive, but a couple of us are still around. We have real jobs. Give us time to address issues brought to our attention. This will be updated.

If we're not going to get to some point where this discussion is Doctrinal, this thread will be moved.

How dare you defy me! I mean, cool. Whatever makes you happy.

I'm going to step in and ask everyone to take a breath. TLC is new to these parts. Most of us have had time to get to know each other. We don't know him. He doesn't know us. Let's let each other breathe. TLC, some free advice: Start a thread in New Members introducing yourself and giving us a feel for where you come from, ideologically/philosophically/"religiously" speaking, plus some history of where/when you were connected to TWI. It will help foster understanding. If you're in an offshoot now or a mainstream church, let us know. This is advice. You are not being "commanded" to do any of this, and there will be absolutely no consequences if you choose not to follow the advice. Thanks again for seeking to join the conversation.

Not Tony Shalhoub Oops. Wrong login.

Done. A tad more reader friendly now. The only thing I added was paragraph breaks. I left everything else alone.

Decision: teachmevp is a member of this site and is free to continue posting. If we're reading them correctly, many of his posts do link back to their source material. Assuming he is the author of that material, there is no reason to believe he is in violation of any policy of Greasespot Cafe. A new thread has been set up called "God's Reconciliation," which is the name of his blog (assuming it's his). We've asked him to voluntarily restrict his posts to that thread unless he is posting something that is not a part of that blog. He is (and all of us are) reminded that this is a discussion board, not a text dumping ground. No moderator action has been taken against teachmevp and none is required. His old topics are being merged onto the new thread as time allows. New posts will appear at the bottom of the thread. Most recent responses to his threads are being unapproved for view because we feel this action addresses the situation raised in those posts. The decision to unapprove comments is being made on an individual basis. There are literally more than 100 threads to go over. I ask teachmevp and those who appreciate his contributions to this site to exercise a little patience as we go through them (in our spare time, while we have jobs, etc). Thank you for your understanding, comments and concerns.

Inviting teachmevp to post his blog excerpts here. Previous posts will be merged into this thread as time permits.

The purpose of this board is to explore doctrinal issues in the context of discussions, not monologues. Trolling will be dealt with as it happens. Posting blocks of texts originally posted on other websites without attribution is against the rules of this site. The remaining moderators will review a host of threads that appear to have violated this policy and we will decide whether to restore them or archive them. The bottom line is that this is a discussion board. If you're not interested in participating in discussions, including the ones you start, this is not the venue to be posting. This thread will be updated when a policy is solidified. Thank you.

Done

Post is on topic and relevant to a point being made now. Repetition aside, no need to delete it.

Correct

Yes sir!

No this is a much more well known movie. The title track has literally one line that doesn't give it away. Oops. Still in mod mode. Oh well.

You know you're allowed to just look it up after a while. :) Let's see: "Noodles? You were dreaming about noodles?" Going by memory there. Might not be exact.

This morning I deleted two more posts. Johniam, you MIGHT be surprised if you checked your private messages (and the timestamps). *** Now, again, if you feel you are being harassed, report it. If you feel the GS Moderators are treating you as a second class citizen, you have three choices: a. complain to the moderators, b. put up with it, or c. sayonara. There is no option D. All option D's are requests to make option C involuntary. Clear?

I just cleaned up this thread using my best judgment. If you enjoy seeing my fingrprints all over your posts, or seeing your work suddenly vanish, keep up the good work! I'd just as soon you knock it off. ;)

The Greasespot rules apply here just as they do on any other forum. They apply to everyone, regardless of forum "status" or authority. They apply FOR everyone, regardless of faith or lack thereof. This forum on Questioning Faith was started in order to isolate discussions on atheism from other discussions on doctrine. It was started specifically in response to complaints in the Actual Errors in Genesis thread. There was an ERRONEOUS belief that the doctrinal section is for believers only, and that people who are not believers are "wasting their time" posting in doctrinal. Let it be clear: anyone of any faith (or lack thereof) is free to post on any thread in doctrinal. Efforts to make posters feel unwelcome in the doctrinal section because of their beliefs will not be tolerated. The same goes for Questioning Faith. ANYONE can post here, no matter what you believe. But whether it's an atheist in the doctrinal section or a believer in Questioning Faith, it is expected that your contribution to the discussion will be On Topic. If two people are discussing who is the best active player in Major League Baseball, you can't decide this is the right place to talk about whether the Red Sox blundered trading Babe Ruth to the Yankees. You don't get to declare the thread to be about baseball in general just because baseball is an element of the conversation. If you are not interested in a conversation, you do not get to unilaterally change it. If you would like to start a related discussion, feel free to do so. That will keep the thread on topic while still allowing you to explore ideas inspired by but not directly related to the topic at hand. Calling someone deceitful will not be tolerated. Calling someone demonic will not be tolerated. If you're going to call a statement untrue, be prepared to back it up. The issue is the statement, NOT the person making it. Believers are more than welcome to challenge atheist ideas in Questioning Faith. Believers are welcome to start threads and initiate discussions. They are more than allowed to participate in discussions -- they are invited to do so. The point is to have a discussion, not a monologue or an echo chamber. Challenging someone's beliefs = fair game. Mocking them or demonizing them for holding a belief = NOT fair game. This post will be updated as needed. Feel free to PM me or another moderator with suggestions.