Twinky

Unbelievable!! :confused:/> The rain falls on good and bad alike - but clearly prayers don't ...

I occasionally look at online Daily Bread and this week’s topic is the book of Job. There is an introductory section outlining the background to the book. This includes the following: I’ve heard in TWI teaching of Satan the Accuser – never that it is some sort of functional or legal role. And I thought of Jesus being our Righteous Advocate- always there, defending us. His role, his position, his choice. I think maybe TWI might have described him as our Defence Attorney. Also, (the) satan had come into God’s presence from walking to and fro upon the earth. But Jesus is always there, always ready to defend. He doesn’t need to walk about to and fro. Hmm. I’ve never seen these roles put together quite like this and thought the juxtaposition was interesting and brought out a new aspect of the “role” of both. A new perspective. Or perhaps that’s just my legal background speaking.

Bumping this up. I just found this thread by accident today. Shocking.

newlife, I understand your problem here. Something I wrestle with too. I feel I know God ... but Jesus? Sometimes. Not enough. A one-time poster here recommended a teaching in March 2014 by K Guigou at CFFM. He talks about this very thing. And talks about praying to Jesus and getting to know him, Jesus, more clearly. I found it helpful. And (being Kevin) you know what his background is and where he's coming from. Here's a link: Guigou teaching (Try to ignore the applause and standing ovation - other recent threads in this forum refer.)

Soon after I got into TWI (which was in the UK of course), Gartmore was purchased and many of the Brit believers went up to help get it ready one way and there was an opening ceremony. We slept on camp beds in the gym which also doubled as the auditorium. Quite good fun. But then, the gym turned into the auditorium with a stage and lecturn etc. I was with some WoWs and we ended up in the front few rows. Enter CG at stage right. Everyone stood up for his entrance and applauded. I was bewildered by this but at the prodding of the WoWs who'd brought me, also stood up. And this beaming EGO bounced onto the stage, basking in the applause, and then gently shushing the congregation whilst egging them on a bit too. It gave me the creeps. Other things happened and I rapidly understood that very weekend that he said one thing publicly and was quite different (nastily so) privately. I saw right through him that weekend. I was unsurprised when the split from Ohio took place. No decision for me.

Time to go to Soap Opera, methinks.

Outie, I am shocked at you. Don't you remember that the Way mags were the "epistles" for our day and time? :biglaugh:/> WW, I do agree with you about gmir. Best thing in the mag. And then it ... just stopped being there. Know why, now.

Red Thread was all about JC in books of scripture. This thread is about (in summary) seeing the Christ in others. How Christ might seem, in action, today. Real-life examples that we can look at and learn from. As Paul said; Be ye followers of me. Well, Paul is dead too. So whose example can we follow today?

The poor kid doesn't even have his own name. Much less his own mind, his own thoughts, his own life.One day, he's gonna sit back and think, What's it all about? Where's my life gone? What do I really think and believe? Hmmmmm.....

I don't think "impulse control" comes into it. The yelling by LCM was entirely deliberate, preplanned, an intimidation tactic. A bully, shouting loudly, because that's what he knows. He knew when to scream, when to have a hissy fit - and when to speak quietly or act sorrowfully at the waywardness of the Corps. It was manipulation. Not impulsive at all.From what I've learned here, that's what VPW was like as well. I have also seen this in other leadership - eg, J0hn R3yn0lds, who I've seen angry and shouting at people down the phone. End of conversation, then a pause for breath and to refocus on someone else - and he was gentle and sweet again. I think they could all do it, when they were "spiritually riled up" about where someone had not been "spiritually obedient." It was showmanship. But as for the rank and file, which is what this thread started out as - yeah, we were expected to be enthusiastic and passionate, at all the right moments. And I do believe some people genuinely were.

Regarding LCM: That's pretty much a Greasespot Gem, Kit.

Sad but true ... one year we were out Lightbearers. We got a class together (at the second attempt) and it ran and completed with all the students. One of the lads in it was soooooo proud of "graduating." Said he'd never graduated from any class in his life before. The local believers were a really great bunch, well, one family among them was. God, I wonder where that lad is now? I know the local family (God bless 'em, I think of them often) would really have done their best for him.

Would even SOWERS stoop so low? And anyway - it's the Wierwille inheritance that's important. Passing the mantle to the grandson...what VP1 was after. Keeping (from the grave) his family on track.

That's it, really. Who are our examples today? For me - my Mum nowadays. We fought horribly when I was growing up - I ran away from home because either she would kill me or I would kill her, so it seemed. We've both changed and mellowed. Now, despite never having had much money, she seems determined to give it all away before she dies. Mostly to Christian charities. She's taken homeless people into her home and helped set them up with training and uniforms. She has always given a tithe-amount to her church despite having very little, and has gently challenged those on much higher incomes to give more than a few small coins a week. She has always been there for her kids (including me), not stinting in the support she gives. My late Dad would do anything for anybody (only partly because we needed the money as the family grew). If anyone asked for help he gave it. It was not always reciprocated by the beneficiaries of his kindness, more just taken for granted. He had to work shifts as the family grew but one of his things was that even if he was tired, he polished all the family's shoes when he came home. He was great at giving hugs, holding hands, and having fun. He loved us and showed it. And now, perhaps, some of the people at church, who give wise and gentle answers, give generously of their time, are community-oriented and live out the gospel in practical ways. I suppose some of us might be exemplars for other people (oh heck!). Gosh! Hope they can sort out the wheat (the Christ) from the chaff (my own rubbishy actions).

Wot, another bl00dy fake "Reverend"? :smilie_kool_aid:/> Has this one even read a Bible, d'ya think?

Who do you think of, when you think of Jesus Christ? Jesus came to “put a face” on God – so that rather than the idea of a loving God, we got to see how God would work, in action. Jesus exemplified God in his earthly life. Jesus. The King of kinds. The Lord of lords. The only begotten son of God. The one now seated at the right hand of God. The one who is worthy to open the scroll and the seven seals. The one on the magnificent horse who leads his troops in the War to end all Wars. Jesus. The servant. The healer. The prophet, arguer, unsettler. The one who had time for people, yet avoided them too. The one who loved kids, but didn’t have any. Touchy-feely. Defiant, occasionally angry. Did all the right religious things, most of the time. Would talk to anybody. Jesus. A son, a brother. One of the lads, who hung around with a load of mates; the leader of the pack. Perhaps a bit of an oddity, not being married when so many his age were. Bit of a party-goer, enjoyed a drink or two, liked his food; didn't give parties though. If Jesus is the face of God, that we can relate to – who exemplifies Jesus, to you, in a way can be seen and followed now? A world leader – a politician? Mother Theresa? Archbishop Romero? The Pope? The archbishop of Canterbury? Your church minister? Your Mum, Dad, spouse, neighbour? Your boss or colleague? Medical staff? What face does Jesus wear, for you? How do you “relate” to him? There might be more than one person – perhaps most of your church congregation? (yeah, right) – that you can visualise as modelling aspects of Jesus’s life. As your role model. Holding my hand up here now – I can visualise him as a colleague, a friend, members of Christian communities that I am part of. I can see him as an intercessor and proponent (my lawyerly / courtroom background, I know what it is to plead for mitigation for offenders). But as King of kings, Lord of lords, the magnificence of who he really is? I have difficulty with that.

I don't think even with American diversity, it could be other than the norm to think that hitting other kids is wrong, stealing from the local shop is wrong, being rude to or swearing at other people is wrong. And I don't think even with American diversity, it could be other than the norm to think that being courteous to people is appropriate. These are some cultural norms from 2000 years ago. They are from a culture that might be very different from "American" culture, however you define that. From a time in history that was very different. And yet, Americans, Europeans, Japanese, Asians, most people - still think these norms are worthwhile in their cultures. Even very young kids can be taught these things. Simply. At a "five senses" level, if you like. Older kids can be taught some of the other stuff that I've omitted - sexual immorality (yeah, right), drunkenness, etc. And anyone can teach these things to kids in two ways: (1) by explicit correction of wrong behaviour; and (2) by modelling the desired behaviour. (Of course, all of us are perfect and never make a step wrong - yeah, right - that's why we can also teach (demonstrate to) kids that when we stuff up, we apologise)

Old proverb: "It takes a village to raise a child." Meaning: All (not just parents) should contribute, nurture, guard and guide, and be watchful for children as they grow. Social interaction is vital for a growing child to learn appropriate norms and mores. All can contribute. Does not mean: All have the right to beat any child. Also does not mean: All have the right to abuse a child by being "over-protective." Looking out for abused children is one thing. But the people you refer to in your news article should be prosecuted for wasting police time.

Lack of membership diversity? :biglaugh:/> :biglaugh:/> :biglaugh:/> What the heck does that mean? Not enough red, black, yellow or candy-striped one-legged blind homosexuals? More like, not enough people of working age to bring in megabucks. .. Not enough financial diversity. It's certain that a twig comprising only people of similar or even just plain "working" age, who were all working and thus "able" to ABS, wouldn't be disbanded because there were no retirees or pre-schoolers. When I was out WoW the area coordinator did send us some money to go to the beach (we were in a seaside town) and have some fun. We had a barbecue and invited our twigs and other people. The weather was surprisingly cold and windy for the time of year, but we had a good time. Later, however, he told me it wasn't ABS that he sent - it was a money gift from his own pocket. Other times, we had barbecues and social events - but we paid for them ourselves. And we still sent all our ABS to him to do whatever was appropriate. Send to HQ presumably. I never asked.

Interesting story, Steve. And something I'd noticed too in my sojourns in the US at TWI HQ. There were some black people in my WC, great people to be around - but on forays into the field for Lightbearers, etc, there was little evidence of black people in twigs I went to. (Maybe it was just the places I went to.) Your story reminds me of the racial segregation at the time of Roman occupation of Jerusalem. Peter goes to the house of Cornelius (gasp) (so racially unacceptable) and hears all Corny's household speak in tongues! You might want to consider why Pentecostals - or at least the black contingent within the P churches - willingly embraces SIT where so many white churches look down on it and upon others who do SIT. To look at a different side of your story, I wonder if now you'd "get away with" witnessing to prostitutes and pimps. Whether the TWI hierarchy would jump on you for hanging out with no-hopers. I gather that (long after I'd been expelled) people were forbidden to get involved with (invite to twig) prospects who didn't have a job (ie couldn't bring in ABS) or who were otherwise had problems or were socially unacceptable.

Enigmatic, Steve. Look forward to hearing your "question and answer." Your wife's counselor is an ex-Wayfer herself? Wow!! Sounds like that was unknown to all of you until your recent meeting. That'lll put a different understanding into the counseling.

Won't see 50 ... devil spirits will attack us for standing on the Word ... Heeeyyyyy - Rosalie !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I knew that'd get you going, Sky. Don't forget - I've been there too - got the T-shirt(s), the nametags, the supposed Corps status - and the scars. I could have been earning biiiiiig money if I hadn't got sidetracked by TWI. So could many others. You yourself, too, perhaps. Instead, worldly careers were brushed off, dissed, "You're leaning to your five senses" etc. WW says it right: - Not just the Corps, though. Despite what that prat VPW taught, I'd rather look at the examples within the Bible, both OT and NT, to see what their lifestyle really was. I see that some of them shared generously. They helped one another. They lived in fearless hope and joyful expectation - despite actual real risk to life. Others were bitchy and backbiting and selfish (nothing new there, then). There is a lot about how they lived. There is not so much about how they sustained physical life - their earning potential. God's not interested in that. He's interested in the inside...the place where real riches of love, joy, peace, faithfulness, patience, kindness, etc truly reside.

Okay, Sky - you mean it one way, I mean it another. I don't agree that there is "upward mobility" spiritually - in a caste system. That's pharisaical. And proper training for Christian ministry does its best to weed out those who are in it for themselves, who seek glorification through position. Downward mobility, perhaps - as one learns to serve God and fellow man better. Your OT examples are fine; but they aren't the norm. They are part of a long-term plan, God's plan, to bring protection to the Christline. A quietly overlooked OT example is the servant girl who told Naaman to listen to the prophet. No idea whether she got anything other than more servant-work to do. But don't forget that that the apostles gave up their day jobs to become ... what? And Paul became an itinerant preacher and itinerant day-jobber at saddle (or tent) making. Many in the NT died for their beliefs. So did many in the OT; we have read of persecutions, taking into exile, etc. Not to mention wars. And Bathsheba's husband's loyalty to God and man got him the reward of becoming a cuckold and then losing his life to try to hide the fact. That's hardly "upward" mobility. Forget the "American dream." It's absolutely not about how much you think God rewards you with in the here and now. Get rid of the "prosperity gospel" that so mars the American church. That Weirwille preached. There are many people who have given up potentially lucrative careers to serve as ministers within established churches, missionaries, other servant-roles for God. And there are thousands, millions, of wonderful Christian people in impoverished countries who depend day to day on God, via Christian brethren, to meet their daily needs - down to the bowlful of rice that they need to keep living. Some face execution for their beliefs; there are cases in the news right now about that. If you do achieve physical abundance and position in this life, don't be seduced by the comfort that can buy. There's nothing wrong with it - but be Godly about it. Steward your money and influence carefully and share, really share, with those brethren who are in need elsewhere.

Standard technique, newlife. Just about everybody who left or was thrown out had their name blackened and was denounced as being "possessed." And if those who remained in TWI dared contact or associate with the ones who had departed, they too would become "possessed" and would "weaken the ministry." It was manipulation, pure and simple. One Rev's daughter killed herself. The Rev and his wife were banished as being possessed and not able to care for their family - it was their fault she had done this. And anyone who contacted the Rev to offer comfort would themselves become possessed. Does that sound loving? Where are the words of comfort? Where is the kindness? Another Rev had questions in the fog years. Some close friends, another Corps couple (maybe he was a Rev too) contacted them; this was found out by HQ; the second couple immediately became possessed and were ignominiously thrown out. Does that sound like kindness? Like the open response that Jesus would give to those who had doubts? TWI built up fear of the devil, fear of devil spirits ... within TWI you could learn far more about this than about the real and healing power of God and the loving ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ. Did you ever see Jesus acting in this way towards those who walked away from him? Did any of the apostles behave like this? On the contrary - for example, we see Simon the Sorcerer continuing to hang around with the apostles. And Simon had packed some "big ones." You are not, and never were, possessed, newlife. But maybe those who remained and still remain at TWI in face of all they must know, suspect or have observed - maybe they are at least influenced by d.s. Yes, they tried this on me too, and I lived with guilt and fear for years. I was afraid of other Christians - other people! - and ashamed of myself before God. Thank God, He was not ashamed of me. He found a way to drag me out of that. I hate those lying evil manipulators for what they have done to ruin so many lives. The best thing you can do, newlife, is to live your life fully, without fear, and love God the best you know how. He loves you and will never abandon or forsake you.