Twinky

Presbuteros means basically an older person. Older, therefore (one hopes) wiser. Such people were often accorded seats on councils - because of their perceived wisdom. Not because of any ranking system (their degree in theology, ability to play the lute, collect more money, etc). This gives an explanation: BibleHub - Strongs Only later did it become a sort of title. As to episkopos, the same site gives this explanation: 1985 epískopos (a masculine noun, derived from 1909 /epí, "on/fitting contact," which intensifies 4649 /skopós, "look intently," like at an end-marker concluding a race) – properly, an overseer; a man called by God to literally "keep an eye on" His flock (the Church, the body of Christ), i.e. to provide personalized (first hand) care and protection (note the epi, "on"). "Though in some contexts 1985 (epískopos) has been regarded traditionally as a position of authority, in reality the focus is upon the responsibility for caring for others" (L & N, 1, 35.40). Easy to see how these became "titles" but it appears that this was neither the original meaning, nor the intent. If anything, I can see these as marks of respect. A bit like when you were a kid, you might have called your Mum and Dad's friends, or the neighbours of parental age, "auntie" or "uncle" even though there is no familial relationship. Perhaps "watchman" might have been a good name for an episkopos [often trans. overseer] and you can see a watchman quite easily as being a servant of a city, tasked with guarding and protecting the walls or city entrance and thus the inhabitants, the citizens.

The most I say to most people is that I was involved for too long with an abusive church. I never name it. I sometimes say that it was a very bad time and I still have the scars. Most people don't bother to enquire any further. Sometimes some will say they have had difficulties in other churches. These are more usually of personality clashes, or a difference with some person in leadership - but not abusive in the way TWI was. Basically only one person (from a church I attend, but just a friend there) has really taken the time to investigate and try to understand, and to understand the long-lasting effects. Non-believers simply take the view, well, why didn't you walk away? without seeing that it was much harder than that, to people involved.

I can completely understand what Allan's saying. The question was asked. From his perspective, Allan answered. Raf, your comments aren't needed on what Allan perceived. felt, or understood, at the time.

Steve, I always find what you write of interest. I'd like to read your paper if possible, please. Maybe you could attach it in a PM if you don't want to post it here? Cheers, Twinx

M didn't get that bad till he got "Rev"ed up; F seemed to disappear from view. And your bro-in-law - is under proper control now where any of those tendencies will quickly be dealt with. His best mate R has withdrawn from TWI I believe and will revert to what/whoever he was before, hopefully.

Looked at some of their songs from 2014 - what can I say? "Uninspiring" is the kindest thing to say.

Read the article. The only time the word Repent occurs is in a Bible verse. There is nothing in the article about seeking forgiveness, about wanting to repent and be forgiven; amending one's own behavior (I know this article is about forgiveness, not repentance, but they do go hand in hand, and maybe it was or will be covered in another article.) Which kinda absolves corporate TWI from apologising for the great hurt and harm they have caused and puts the onus back on others to "forgive" - ie, forgive TWI for what it has done. And what they say: <<When we love and forgive a fellow believer, he will not be “swallowed up with overmuch sorrow”>> is directly contrary to TWI practice, to the burden they put on others by not forgiving but "marking and avoiding." 1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Acts 26:18 - To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. 2 Chronicles 7:14 - If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. If they want to apologise - they can post a BIG, prominent, apology on their website. Post something at GreaseSpot Cafe. Post something on one or all of the many Facebook and other internet sites. Post a sincere apology and guaranteed it will be round the world in just a few hours. Whether it would be accepted or believed as an apology thus resulting in forgiveness is a moot point.

I thought some might find this article interesting for discussion: Toxic leader

I don't recall - others may - that it was "in recognition of God's goodness" - more that it was a requirement to give to God. And as one cannot give directly to God, then to his ministers, his representatives, those that really are doing God's will now. And 'cos somewhere in PFAL VPW convinced you that TWI was really the only place God was active today - "the first century church in the 20th" etc, and all churches are devil-ridden denominations.

You know, VPW would probably enjoy all the naysaying about him. I think he said something about it in PFAL. Something about the prophets not being easy to live with, and always being disrepected, despised, by the general populace. In his curious narcissistic way, he'd see all this badmouthing about him not as true exposure of that which he wished to hide, but of persecution because of his bold stand on the word and his making the truth known like it hasn't been known since ... since Year 1 in his school.

My oh my, what a lot of people have birthdays today. OCD #2 (36), THEWAYWEWERE (69), QamiQazi (65), MiniCorpsConscript (36), troubledwine (41), Bogey76 (115), jke (64), Tree Man (66), INDEBTSAYSWHO (115), Margie (65), smalltowncutie (48), satori001 (106), satori (14), Seth (115), nandon (45), Bee (104), dabobbada's wench (116), WOW92 (114), Naucelle girl (55), Donna Jo (55), bullfrog (114), TrustAndObey (55), David L. Smith (54), OldSkool (104) I suspect a little creative dating among these people, especially Bogey76, INDEBTSAYSWHO, Satori001 and Satori (the junior version), Seth, Bee, dabibbada's wench, WOW92, bullfrog, and OldSkool. Although as some of these don't post here anymore, maybe I am making false allegations. What say you, OldSkool, you still post here. Well, a "happy birthday" to you all. Best wishes for the future and a happy new year to you, too.

The women's stories have remarkable consistency to them. Against Cosby. And like the women's stories against VPW. Unlike VPW, Cosby is still alive and can answer the allegations in an appropriate place. Trial by media is not that place. Like VPW and later MoGs, Cosby has engaged expensive lawyers to threaten and continue to bully the women. Cosby's women need a Waydale! Any volunteers?

And to you too, Outie. Best wishes for a good year to all of you.

Maybe you need to look at the Hebrew word(s) for "priest"? Maybe it was some of the "judges" who were appointed at the end of Ex 18? Or maybe it was some people they brought out of Egypt with them? You make a fair point, Raf, but I do not think it conclusive of anything at all.

Is that a dig at someone, John? The Healer of Broken Hearts surely can bind them together again. There sometimes remains scars; you can remember why the scar is there. Maybe the scar is a little tender, so you avoid touching it. Maybe the scar is not fully formed yet, and underneath still hurts. Maybe the scar is in a really obvious place and you can't avoid encountering it daily.

I looked at that post-cult website; there was an introduction by 4 of them (lasts just over an hour) - they could have been us. Their cults chose different scripture verses to hang their hats on, but the treatment was just the same. And these are highly intelligent, well educated people - one even had several years seminary teaching before she got drawn into "her" cult. I've bookmarked the site for further reference.

I looked at that Cult Awareness site too. And yes - they could have been us. Well-educated people too - before they went in - got more quals afterwards. Having smarts doesn't mean you don't get fooled. VPW and all these cult leaders - need us more than we need them, actually. Without followers, they can't lead. Can't bully. VPW started with a few problems in life. Hit upon something that didn't require a lot of physical work. Stole the materials so he didn't need to do the mental work. Got a few followers, his ego grew, no-one to keep it in check, ego got bigger, got more followers, ego got bigger, and so on. Enough material to keep people interested while he perfected his bullying techniques and the co-dependency with his followers.

Well, you uncouth person, Jim. Definitely worthy of being hung, drawn and quartered. You got off lightly. :evilshades:/> The "throw you all out" thing was standard fare. Wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that it was actually scheduled for about 3 or 4 months into every program. In rez, WD, WoW, whatever. Bloody fools, the lot of them. ...and us, too, for playing along.

Sounds like a typical in-rez Corps Coord trick. Get y'all together and then say you're not good enough and you will all be thrown out. Look sad or hurt by the pitiful bunch of [slaves] in front of you. Get them all ansty. Then "forgive" them and let them back, if they work harder/are more committed/drink more KoolAid. Thing is with this one - it's always the peons who are to blame. Never the CC or WoW Coord or other higher-up, because of his poor leadership. In fact, it seems that the peons are dragging this top-flight super-duper leader down. :smilie_kool_aid:/> <<Kool-Aid

Slow learners, cats, I think, Keith. Slow trusters, certainly. My girlies have been with me since they were about 15 months old and were born at the Cats Protection League. Their mother was fierce and attacked the carer regularly, hence the girlies were not fondled as very young kittens - has to be done within the first few weeks of life, when they learn that it's okay. When I got them, it was three weeks before I had a glimpse of Tuxedo, and three MONTHS before I saw Crypto, and that's with them living in my small kitchen! They are still very wary of anyone who isn't me and hide - most people don't realise I have cats at all. I long for the day mine behave like your BJ. He sounds cute.

Here I am, back on this really old thread now. Some more progress. Tuxedo has this week started to jump onto my lap and push around wanting fondles. Yep, she jumps up entirely voluntarily. And she is pushy wanting the fondles. Hasn't decided to sit or settle on my lap, but perhaps that is to come. Other cat Crypto is still wary but does allow me to walk by the food bowl - well, 2ft from it - without taking off and hiding now. Stupid creature, she knows I put the food there! I was putting food out one day recently and without thinking really, just seized the nearest cat, which happened to be Crypto, and parked her on my lap. She didn't fight me but allowed me to stroke her. Leaped off at the first opportunity, though, and was wary of me for the next two or three days. They must be 7 or 8 years old now (oh hello Tuxy on my lap) - you'd really think that by now they'd have got the message that I'm not going to hurt them.

Just another example of their outrageous hypocrisy. But no, we have to have a decorated tree (a pagan custom, tree being symbol of fertility - oops, giveaway!) and give little gifts (I still have a couple of (used) slim diaries that were gifts from Dorothea or Mrs Owens or some such). And a day or two off. But on what TWI states is the true birthdate of JC - is there a celebration of any kind? No! I knew a Corps girl who was always happy to work/be on call on Christmas Day. She didn't see it as a holiday/celebratory day but knew others did - so she volunteered - and got double or triple pay for it. Heh, heh. Good for her. Rewarded for her beliefs, if you will.

I second (or third) what JJ said, and that's why I never read AV (KJV) any more, too many tainted word studies. I think: The thief - TWI - but there really is a much more abundant life there, working with genuine Christians who truly love God and Jesus. And with that, I have peace of mind - which is life more (than) abundant.

"I" (meaning Jesus). and "life to the full" (other versions, not AV).

It's not just Christian cults. There are all sorts of cults. The ones that bother me at the moment are the Muslim cults, the ones that talk terrorism and "training" overseas. These young people that go on their misguided trips to "fight" for their beliefs are just as badly treated as we were, wrongly taught in the mosques by leaders who hide behind a face of legitimacy. I do not believe that mainstream Muslims condone such behavior and no doubt many of those kids' parents are just as appalled and concerned as our own parents were as our involvement in TWI increased. Heck, I myself went "overseas" for "training" and we did weapons training. You could make something of that! Prior to my time there were those MALpacks in preparation for a warlike status. You could require leaders of small groups to be properly educated/accredited - by a reputable organisation - but where do you draw the lines there? VPW had a fake doctorate degree but perhaps a real theological degree (to be accepted as a priest in Van Wert). DonW did have a degree and reputable status as a teacher. But what if it's just a cult around guns where people develop outrageous ideas? Or around motor vehicles? Or flying planes? Very difficult to legislate for those who hide behind the scenes.