Twinky

Too many facemeltings to think of one single reason. However...was on housekeeping once, and cleaning in the Auditorium. Was told that I needed to get in the creases of the steps, working my fingers deeply into the crease to remove dust, etc. Not to just use the crevice tool on the vac. The inevitable happened - I ripped a finger on the gripper rod - only slight, but it bled quite well for a while. I asked for a band-aid to staunch the flow as I didn't want to get blood droplets on the carpet. Guess whose fault following instruction and thus ripping my finger was? Wish I'd just wrapped a tissue round it and kept my mouth shut about the injury.

No sh!t, Allan. For real? Who was that, W@yne?

That's pretty much the way I explain it too, if anyone asks, which is rare. I don't mind telling people I had been part of an abusive Christian church, but few and far between are the people who enquire further. Notably, ones who are least sympathetic have been a few ex-Wayfers near where I live. They all left voluntarily - having done little more than gone WoW and so not been involved in major set-tos at higher levels. It was reasonably sweet in this country, far away enough from Ohio's reach unless you encountered a lot of US-trained WC, until CG came and set up at Gartmore, and then things got really noxious, and the E-corps was noxious too. Those local ex Wayfers don't want to hear how bad TWI was nor do they really understand how difficult life has been (for me) as a result of TWI's cruelty. In my church, people are busy with church life - but in the parent church to my current church, it was the quality of the sermons that caused tears of relief to run down my cheeks. Every week, for six months. I didn't need to talk to anyone, but those near me usually asked if they could so anything to help, when they saw me crying. Friends at church have asked about it (they've seen the effects) and listen and offer sympathetic noises. They've made some effort to understand but don't quite get the interweaving and entanglement and blighting of all one's thinking processes. Only one person has really tried to understand and truly wanted to know more. He has made a very good job of understanding, too, and really does recognise the impact (and continuing effects) upon my life. It may be that's because (one of) his roles in the church is as the Child Protection Officer, checking creds of people who do children's ministry or come into contact with children in small group settings, etc, and so is therefore more aware of the devastating effects of abuse of trust. Perhaps we are ashamed to talk of our "perceived gullibility" at being sucked into a cult? Perhaps we have been hurt and half-expect others to hurt us again, like TWI did? Perhaps we are hiding this unpleasant time of our lives? And undoubtedly most people just really don't want to know. They really don't want to take the time to understand. Perhaps it's hard enough to understand their own thinking processes, without trying to understand someone else's.

And then you'd have a shedload of people jumping up and down and saying that it was unconstitutional, and that the constitution guaranteed freedom of religion. If you are talking about (pseudo) religious cults like TWI, the answer is surely in more mainstream churches, to teach and live the gospel more effectively. If taught properly, thoroughly, and with conviction, then potential cult joiners will know when something has been perverted; if lived effectively, there will be both a calm expectation and a joyful excitement about daily life. It was the zeal for life, and the lifestyle, that drew people to the early Christian church. Where's that, in many churches today?

I saw the Dr Phil item. I felt really ill during and after watching. Even with an understanding of the background/cult indoctrination. I'd imagine the feelings of the general non-Wayfer population would waver between total incredulity and furious rage. I liked that Dr Phil offered Lindsay some counseling to help her get over it. But not just offered to the "Maiden" - he also offered counseling to the father, Carmen, to help him come to terms with his own responsibilities and failures. Notably the mother wasn't featured in the interview. She's just as culpable as the father.

Not to mention that burning oil and petrochemicals releases stuff into the environment that doesn't "vanish" but merely vanishes from obvious view. Global warming? Hole in the ozone layer? There might be enough fuel; is there enough clean air, or clean water (as Waysider points out), and what becomes of the waste products? It befits us all to be cautious and sparing with what we use. Nuclear power, for example, is considered clean energy. Yeah, right. Just leave the debris for future generations to deal with. We're smart enough to make the stuff but not smart enough to deal with the waste in a totally harmless way. PS I just got back from the US. You pay only $2.60/gallon for gas? (and less in Texas) The equivalent volume in the UK would cost around a staggering US$7.30/US gallon at current Brit prices. Wince at that one.

You might find this article in Wikipedia helpful: Cult It's quite lengthy, but readable, and the main theme is about "deviant" beliefs ie, beliefs that deviate from norms - eg, deviate from Christian norms (but cults can and do exist around many beliefs - extremist Muslim beliefs, beliefs in extra-terrestrials, political views, TV programs, or even that one type of motorcycle or car is "better" than another). Here's an extract, from the introduction to the Wikipedia article: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia In the sociological classifications of religious movements, a cult is a religious or other social group with socially deviant and novel beliefs and practices. However, whether any particular group's beliefs and practices are sufficiently deviant or novel is often unclear, and thus establishing a precise definition based on these criteria is problematic. The English word often carries derogatory connotations. The word "cult" has been controversial. One reason is that it (as used in the pejorative sense) is considered a subjective term, used as an ad hominem attack against groups with simply differing doctrines or practices, and without a clear or consistent definition. It has also been used selectively by proponents of mind control theory. Beginning in the 1930s cults became the object of sociological study in the context of the study of religious behavior. Certain groups have been labeled as cults and opposed by the Christian countercult movement for their unorthodox beliefs …

LCM took it to a new level, Rocky. The man was perpetually furious (aka spiritually angry). And his "teachings" were full of vitriol and vile language. (I learned some horrible swear words and expressions.) Yeah, LCM was a great Christian witness.

And yet ... ancient rabbinical teaching was based very much on the question/answer/dialog model. We see the young Jesus sitting at the feet of the temple leaders of the day - and they were amazed at his ability - his questions, responses, etc. I'm sure the young Jesus asked some very challenging and searching questions. And he probably got honest attempts to answer those questions, too. And since that was the modus operandi for teaching - it appears to have carried through into Jesus's ministry and that of the apostles. That is - those very apostles who set up the first century church that TWI supposedly modeled itself on.

If the way that a husband treated his wife is supposed to personify how Christ tends his "bride", the church - wow, I don't want to know that Christ - as personified by VPW, LCM and other "leaders". But as to how I see some church ministers today interact with their spouses - tenderly, courteously, respectfully, and giving appropriate honor - now, that's the Christ I want to know.

Thanks for posting that, Charlene. I wonder how long it will take before TWI starts proceedings or some other effort to get this removed? Someone ought to post this on the FB page for VPW's followers: FB page It's a closed group so I can't do it. I doubt it would last long there.

Interesting... It is (was) a "research, teaching and fellowship" ministry. Well...we know the research was plagiarism. Teaching...well that they abundantly, nay beyond abundantly, shared. Fellowship...was great at lower levels. Note what it is NOT: > Not a practical ministry > Not a "service" ministry > Not a healing or deliverance ministry > Not even a Christian "outreach" ministry!! A Christian organisation that I volunteer with has the strapline: Caring, Listening, Helping. And that's exactly what we do. A different Christian organisation that I volunteer with has the strapline: Compassion in Action. And that's exactly it does. Compare and contrast with "research, teaching and fellowship."

Newlife, it is a lovely location and an impressive big house. Which was run down at the time of TWI purchase. As well as the big house, there was a less pretty functional block the other side of a large parking area. This block housed a gymnasium and several classrooms/ offices. When first purchased, believers came from all over the UK and near-Europe and we slept on camp beds in rows in the gymnasium. There were some showers in the main house but not enough hot water. Nobody cared; we were glad to be there. As the months went by, the place gradually got upgraded. It was sold off quite a long time ago and became a Christian conference centre. It seems to be in other hands now. No doubt it was sold at a fair profit (having been upgraded). I wonder who got the sale proceeds? Probably not the Way in GB or the Way of the UK or whatever they were calling themselves at that point. Interestingly I found this website: The Way and it's NOTHING NEAR that organisation!!!!

Raf! CG impressed you?? :confused:/> with what??

For anyone who's interested, this is the place nowadays: Gartmore House The countryside is still fabulous. The place is much better than when I'd been - but then, it had only just been purchased and needed a lot of doing up.

That's why a prudent purchaser always purchases "subject to survey" or gets a survey before committing irrevocably to the purchase. Following the survey, the purchaser can (a) go ahead if the survey doesn't reveal anything costly to repair; (b) negotiate a reduction on account of necessary repairs; © withdraw from the proposed purchase. Either : (a) the leaks should have been known about in advance and the repair cost deducted from (negotiated off) the purchase price (and the price saving immediately utilised to carry out the essential repairs); or (b) no survey was done...which would have been very poor stewardship of the money. If you know these are the problems (because you've had a property survey done), why whinge about what needs to be done? Anyway...probably what caused the holes in the roof was CG's massive ego. It wouldn't fit into a building that size, LOL.

Admission: sheer miserliness. Other factors: Chris K was an electrician. CG probably thought he could demand of CK that he do it free of charge. Of his own free will, of course. When you buy something run-down - you have to budget upgrade costs into the price you pay. Admission: didn't know how to budget.

WW, back off a bit. Please. I rarely agree with John but he is entitled to his viewpoint, just as you are. You don't have to attack him at every instance. As Ralph would say ... Peace! :knuddel:/>

Geer points out in WW's extracts how difficult it was to get on with things in Scotland. There seems to be a common factor. And that's he himself. His obnoxious style put people off. It was nothing to be with being an American. It was to do with being an obnoxious American. You folks mostly haven't seen this place. It's in a stunningly beautiful location. Access (for Scotland) wasn't too bad and there is a fast motorway, the M74, going most of the way. It's close to Edinburgh, Glasgow and Falkirk. There are airports nearby (an hour or so away). The ministry had focussed around the Manchester area. There is a lot of property in the midlands and north of England that might have been suitable, had they chosen to look around. Cheap, in the north of England. It was a choice to go there. A deliberate decision - there was no need for a last-minute change. Either his ego was suffering badly at not having his own fiefdom (a good word, being as it's Scottish) or he was going to be kicked out of the US ministry anyway. Things between him and LCM were not exactly cordial. That's what prompted the decision. Not that there were no other places available. And as regards European Corps - nothing anybody else chose would ever have been good enough for him. He demoralised the EC, the believers, trashed the country coordinator ... trashed anybody. You know anything EC might have located (no matter how suitable) would be "defective" because it was all about him!

I just thought it was a fancy bit of alliteration. Spose he could have called it Wierwille the Womaniser, but it doesn't have the same ring about it...

I am sorry that your son's friend has been so brutally murdered. Even if they weren't close, it's still especially shocking to the system. All these people who have been so cruelly murdered...they're all somebody's son, perhaps someone's father, husband, lover. All these lives affected by these atrocities. To what gain?

Your q's? Qumcats? Quinces? Quinoa? Here's a recipe for quinoa and peas, to help you mind your "qs and ps" at the very least: Quinoa and peas recipe

Be pea-sistent in prayer.

Shoulda told 'em to peas off.

I've wondered about that, too, Raf. When younger, I used to read books on philosophy, other religions, lots of stuff. I'd been brought up in a Christian household and was taken to church and it was boooooorrrrriiiiiiing, with boring old people (teenage perspective). That's why I explored other ways of thinking. Nothing I read of other religions appeared consistent. I accept an outsider could say that about Christianity in all its various colors. I decided to read the Bible and started in a different place from usual. In Acts. I was riveted. It was so exciting! I wanted that as a lifestyle for myself. I wanted to find people who wanted to live like that. Soon after, I met a WoW and he showed me even more about that lifestyle, and I did meet people who lived like that. I loathed PFAL but decided to take up the challenge of reading the epistles for three months. I demanded of God that he show me if it was real, if the epistles were right or wrong, and what was true. I started to pray according to what I'd read. Guess what? When I prayed, amazing "coincidences" happened. Consistently. Life became very exciting. Some totally amazing things happened; I'm still thrilled by them. It's true I haven't explored other religions that way. But when presented a banquet of everything you want and need, why would there be any need to explore another "restaurant"?