Twinky

"Penny rich and pound foolish," waysider. Save money on pens and toilet paper, and blow it on vehicles, fancy clothes and Drambuie.

WG, that's disgusting. Chronic sin in your life? Heck, aren't we all sinners - chronic sinners? (Even if we're born again! we still sin!!). Jesus, I recall, yelled at a man who had had a chronic illness such that he couldn't walk. And was too lazy to get into a magic pool. Yeah right. Hey, wait, didn't he do something similar when the man's mates tore open the roof? (Can you imagine doing that in the WoW Auditorium. Hahahahahahaha!) And his disciples - just as bad, didn't give out silver or gold, just a b-llocking to a man who hadn't ever walked. Yeah, right. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am sure that in every respect your life is incomparably more healthy now, WG :knuddel:/>

I stand fully behind my post #7 on this thread. And even from his grave, VPW has got us distracted from ***GOD*** and got us wasting time on arguing about words. Just words - though there is some effort on this thread, to address the concept behind the words. Read other versions; try using synonyms; don't split hairs or even split the atom - keep it simple If understanding is getting more complicated - the "explanation" is probably not of God.

VPW cobbled together a few bits and pieces that he found. He found some stuff on apeitheia and apisteia; he found some stuff about pistis, he found bits here and there, and mixed in a good dash of private interpretation. That's why all this stuff is so hard to get one's head around. It was hard in the first (PFAL) place to try and take on board his explanations and expositions. Now, having worked hard to try and get them to make sense - one has to work hard to get rid of the crazy explanations. The man didn't understand English, never mind Greek, or his version of Greek. He didn't understand mediaeval English (well that of the late 1500s and, let's be kind, half a century out of date) - how much less would he understand of NT Greek, of (let's be honest) nearly two millennia out of date - that's four times as old. He dissed the work of countless educated theologians from many generations, unless they were too long dead, or he could plagiarise their work to fit his own ideas. He was also a cultural moron and didn't give a hoot about any kind of background other than what he was familiar with. He mocked the background of other people - even in PFAL - mocked "an English theologian" [unidentified] to whom he, VPW, could teach some new stuff [yeah, right]. The ethos of TWI was to mock and disregard the background of any believers who weren't Americans and who weren't seeking "prosperity gospel." So...he didn't understand modern English. He didn't understand 1500s English yet deliberately chose a Bible version from this period because he counted others even less able to understand this English than himself. He didn't know any Greek (from any period) He wasn't interested in anyone's background except his own mid 20th C background He had a history of "sleight of hand" (or rather, of tongue) and twisting the ordinary meaning of words to bolster his own ideas Does this man sound like someone to be trusted in his explanations of what words mean? Or does he sound like someone whose words have been weighed in the balance and found wanting? (= inadequate, insufficient)?

First, acknowledge that VPW's grasp of the English language was very limited. He often mixed up parts of speech. He also invented words (so as to build a cult mentality). The verb is: BELIEVE, and "believing" is a grammatical construction being part of the verb. The verb believe means: : to accept or regard (something) as true : to accept the truth of what is said by (someone) : to have (a specified opinion) (from Merriam-Webster online dictionary) You can add synonyms like, have confidence in, trust in, etc. Generally, we believe someone (take their word for it) or something (that it is as stated). If you believe someone, the emphasis is on that someone. I believe You said... it's about my confidence in You. I believe You are honest, trustworthy, a liar, a thief... It's about my believe in You. When we get into this business of "believing" that shifts the emphasis. I am believing... who? what? I, I, I. Is that perhaps how the magical thinking gets in, the power of thinking positive, etc. It's all about I, me. Where is all this is believing God? Where in any of it is prayer? is asking God for his help? is acknowledging Him (in all our ways) as the Giver of life, of healing, of everything. I think this word, this expression, this "believing" is another of those sleight of hand tricks that VPW dragged in, to distract us from knowing and relying upon God. Instead of "I'm believing [who? or what?] for a house with red drapes," try "I trust God to meet my needs and I would like red drapes." Get rid of the jargon, and return to simplicity.

Waysider - you still have that stuff? Isn't it like witchcraft - you have those books and devil spirits lurk in them and will pozzess you? :biglaugh:/>

Hmm, no comments on the piece I posted. Perhaps I was wrong, then, and VPW didn't use this at all. Knowing what I know now, I can only imagine him using it as subterfuge - not with any sense of believing or meaning it.

I receive the CFFM newsletter weekly. Dunno why, it was a “comfort thing” when I was first getting my head back together and now I simply haven’t got round to unsubscribing. However, in the latest edition appears the following wording (it goes on for at least twice the length of the extract – if anybody’s interested I’ll post the rest of it. It brought back memories of something TWI-related and I can hear VPW’s voice reciting this in resoundingly enthusiastic tones (wonder why, given what I know now – all part of the trickiness no doubt). It must be in PFAL somewhere. Quite late on, I’d think, a later session. The person reciting, Dr Shadrach Meshach Lockridge (March 7, 1913 – April 4, 2000), was the Pastor of Calvary Baptist Church,[1] a prominent African-American congregation in San Diego, California, from 1953 to 1993. He was known for his preaching across the United States and around the world. As such, he would have been alive when VPW was out there pushing his stuff. Or am I misremembering it all? And VPW never got his teeth into this too? Or was it not PFAL but some other TWI thingy (not AoS, that's for sure). ++++++++++++++++ The Bible says my King is the King of the Jews. He’s the King of Israel. He’s the King of Righteousness. He’s the King of the Ages. He’s the King of Heaven. He’s the King of Glory. He’s the King of kings, and He’s the Lord of lords. That’s my King. I wonder, do you know Him? My King is a sovereign King. No means of measure can define His limitless love. He’s enduringly strong. He’s entirely sincere. He’s eternally steadfast. He’s immortally graceful. He’s imperially powerful. He’s impartially merciful. Do you know Him? He’s the greatest phenomenon that has ever crossed the horizon of this world. He’s God’s Son. He’s the sinner’s Saviour. He’s the centerpiece of civilization. He’s unparalleled. He’s unprecedented. He is ... ++++++++++++++++ Dr. S.M. Lockridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S._M._Lockridge Listen to this presentation at:

:offtopic:/> How did I come to miss this interesting thread when it was first started?? :doh:/>

Not to mention: 2 member(s) have a birthday today Rendie (54), star_is_born (53) Neither of whom I have ever seen post here. Perhaps before I arrived.

Yes, Mark, the two cats take the place of the absent kids. I am constantly amazed by the awesomeness of the people I meet - the quiet but great works they have done, are doing. No great Bible teachings, just good solid Christian service. People who dedicate their lives to working in healthcare and educational fields in African countries; found orphanages for children in ex-Communist bloc countries; start missions or schools or work projects in India and other countries, including countries with significant anti-Christian ethos; spend weekends cooking lunches or soups or meals for homeless, vulnerable or not-well-off people in this city; running groups or organisations for kids at risk or to give their parents some breathing space; even just simply visiting elderly shut-ins. Nobody shouts about this; it's just "what they do." Very quietly, very solidly. Some of the projects have grown to become international charities. And this is from just one church, with a current congregation of about 350 adults. There are loads of other people in other churches in this city that I've got to know,of the same ilk (well, I get involved too, so I don't know many "bums on seats"). I also know some top-class theologians, with good Uni degrees and post-grad study. Prodigious intellects. But they don't flaunt this. Instead, they quietly and patiently, teach, share, explain, and keep themselves firmly on the ground and not on pedestals. They don't flaunt their "Rev"ness but dress "normally" and you wouldn't know they were vicars until you got into theological conversations with them. I often wonder what I "bring to the party" - I just know that I am welcomed heartily and generously, and most people like being with me. Some even consider what I say (!) and think it wise. (Others wonder what part of "weird" I come from!)

Thank God, VPW was dead before I ever heard of him. I never thought that much of him, really, was very aware of some of the errors in PFAL videos. In any event, he was just another preacher, yeah? with some new insights, but nothing that made him holier than me or any of the other churchmen that I knew. Later, I met people that revered him in a way that was astounding to me. Many of these were people who hadn't met him. Did they even know he was dead, I wonder? As an aside, just a few months in the Word, I met Chris Geer. My first "experience" of him turned me right off. So "Look at me! Look at me!!!" with that big beam on his face. "You can ask me anything!" My second experience of him, the same or the next day, was a chance encounter in a room, just the two of us, and I asked him something or other, don't know what, but he just blanked me and looked at me like I'd brought dog mess in on my shoes. Never trusted him after that. Some later incidents of how he treated people confirmed what an unworthy leader he was.

Thank you, Broken Arrow. It's been a hard and painful journey. Hugs to you, Outie. :knuddel:/>

In the same way that Arbeit Macht Frei, in Wayworld, Classes Make You Free.

I keep being offered free upgrades from Win 8 (or 8.1) that I have on my laptop, to Win 10. I hated Win 8, would never have got it installed if I'd known how different and how idiosyncratic it is. There are many features that are intrusive, and many others that are just plain annoying. And I don't need fancy stuff for what I use my laptop (only my laptop) for. So I haven't taken up the generous offer of more trouble with Win 10. If you've got Win 10, what do you think? Good, bad, more annoying, more genuinely useful features? More trouble? Is it worth installing it - or would waiting till pushed into it be better? Wait for Win 10.#### (10.200?) before upgrading? Would welcome knowing of others' experiences.

Those classes, ultimately, were mind-control - to think narrowly like a good little Wayfer - and to learn NOT to listen to the enlarging spirit of God at work within us. God is able to work within us to will and to do of His good pleasure, without us having to learn to "operate" that self-same spirit of God. Heck, we're not even the organ-grinder's monkey. TWI was so keen on putting (trying to put) God in a box ... in prison, if you like. Perhaps we already manifested (without knowing it) WoK, WoW, DoS, etc - we "just knew" something or other. Those classes taught us to strain after God, demanding the "green light" to proceed - not encouraging and enabling us to simply relax in the warmth of His giving us what we need to know, to understand. Thank God He managed to shine his light into the little chinks in our minds that had not yet been boarded up by TWI. Isn't it fantastic when those walls of Waythink are torn down, when God's let out of prison, and we're free to simply enjoy His gifts to us.

Good post, your #16, MRAP. Doing our honest best is usually good enough. But it depends what has to be done. 80/20 rule. Knowing how or where we can improve is also worthwhile. The aggressive perfectionist is usually trying to compensate for his own imperfections.

I was looking for God. I met a WOW. He was really knowledgeable in the scriptures, and on fire for God. I met some interim Corps and they seemed to have a glow about them and they seemed vibrant with life. I felt pressured by the WOW (who himself was being pressured by the interim Corps) to take PFAL, which raised a lot of red flags for me. I became disenchanted by the non-WOW people I met after the WOWs had moved on. Not very caring, as I couldn't attend regularly because I lived in another town a long way away so they thought I was just a time-waster and not really interested. Still, I wasn't impressed by any churches and their seemingly wishy-washy message. The fog years started (not that I knew that at the time). Chris Geer came to Gartmore and started his reign of terror. I found some graduated Corps who were unhappy with (and hurt by) the leadership but were wonderful people to be around. I hung out with them for a while. They helped me a lot. Things were getting worse. I prayed and miraculously was offered a job in another country and I moved to be with a tremendously tight-knit bunch of believers. Then, I stopped by at HQ for the first time ever. I got talked into entering the WC training. That was when things really started to go wrong. I was always in trouble. Well, all the in-rez Corps was. Bullied. Threatened. Worked long days. Not enough sleep. Too much to do, always. Study hall was good, but interrupted twice a week by going out to chop wood. The constant fear of being thrown out. I'd given up a high-paying well respected profession to enter the WC - expecting to be going back into the profession to spread the word within it. Still, it was "God first" and I gave it my all, nothing half-hearted with me. Yep. I drank the Kool-Aid in abundance. Huh, that profession - and all other training - was belittled all the time I was in rez, and it became known that we weren't expected to return to our previous professions or employment types. I was belittled, constantly. There were some very weird things that happened, weird in an unpleasant way. Mostly, it was a big yell-fest. I had a WoW year. When I graduated, the area and twig that I had built up from nothing was given to someone else (male), who had been unsuccessful in his WoW year, and he immediately ran off practically everyone my family had won; the area folded. I got kicked out of the WC (at the same time, losing my engagement to another Corps person) and all the last few believers (ex-WoWs) moved out back to the city they'd come from. I was left with no-one, no support, nothing. I had no self-esteem, no inner reserves, no confidence, nothing. No thing at all. Abandoned in a foreign country and too terrified to move to another city or even back to my home country. No friends in the new country; all my family and friendships in my home country in tatters. Why? You might find this hard to believe, but the Corps Night teachings were heavy-duty indoctrination sessions about the greatness of TWI, no-one else knowing the Word, and the dangerous unreliability of mainstream Christians. I was terrified of other devil-possessed Christians. I was suspicious of everyone. I was significantly depressed, horrible, spiky, aggressive to people, and near suicidal. I would stand in front of my closet and burst into tears at the effort of choosing what clothes to wear. I burst into tears at most things, actually. My weight dropped by about 40lb; I looked so gaunt. Really, I have no idea how I functioned at all. My WoW boss had kept me on and she was a real rock. She didn't understand the inner turmoil, but her own marriage had broken down quite recently and she understood some of the pain I suffered. I spent ten years in that ultra miserable state. The Lost Years, I call them. I cannot really remember what I did. Just vague things that only occasionally fit together. Somehow, after some years, I moved back to my home country. I was still desperately miserable and depressed. I can't begin to explain to you how dark those years were. I knew I needed to get back to God. To the greatness of God's Word blah blah. I was ready to crawl over broken glass back to TWI. I needed to write the most grovelly letter ever and send to them. I looked them up on the net; needed the zip code. The google search redirected to Grease Spot Cafe. I was appalled by the horrendous stories I read (with horrified fascination) about this wonderful ministry that I'd let down so badly and disgraced myself (and God) with. But the more I read these horrifying stories on GSC, the more I saw the truth, there was a ring of truth, and I realised that how I'd been treated had been systematic abuse and psychological manipulation aimed at breaking me (and many others), but not, if you like, personal to me because I was such a rat-dang individual - just part of the pattern of abuse, especially of females. The scales fell from my eyes. My healing started. Today, I am an active member of two churches, both of which have a laid-back feel to them. I thought I was kind and compassionate before; hah, nothing to what I am now. I'm involved with poor and disadvantaged people. I recognise signs of abuse and can help people move on. I can recognise God's loving kindness and demonstrate that to other people. I am safely held in God's hands and rely completely on him. I learned a lot of stuff in study hall - all I remember is what I "taught myself" through careful study. I don't remember much of TWI teachings. I have never been able to resume my profession after so very long out of it. I am significantly financially disadvantaged. However, I have (after years of fear and worry about being "out of God's protection") bought a little house - which God directed me to - and I have a mortgage till I'm 74. I am too old or too out of touch to be employed in this economic climate, and after many years of applying and being rejected, I've set up as self-employed. It's me making the best of a bad job (as the saying goes) and I earned enough (not much more than minimum wage) to meet my very frugal needs, and to give a little to others who have a little less. My client base is erratic and I don't know from one week to the next what work I'll have, but I pray about it and out of the blue I get a phone call for someone who needs my help. I have no pension entitlements. I don't read the Bible much. I do hang out with mature Christians and discuss the workings of God's love with them. Some people consider me wise; others think I have somewhat strange ideas; one person called me an apostle; others think I'm a compassionate pastor; most think I am enthusiastic (perhaps too much so) to share God's love with others. I am very careful what I accept of teachings/ sharings/ Bible studies. I learned some very bad language which I try hard not to use and now rarely slip on. I learned some very hateful behavior, again which I try hard not to use. I learned some very hateful attitudes towards some groups of people, which I have overcome since I was never wholly convinced about these attitudes in the first place. I have repaired my severely fractured relationships with my family and with some pre-Way friends. I have never married and my long-desired children will never be born, I'm past child-bearing age now. I mourn their absence. Would I do the same again? I would seek after God. But I would listen to my wiser friends and family who weren't impressed by TWI's teachings. I wouldn't wish the misery I endured at the hands of TWI on anyone. I would wish the closeness experienced within some twigs, on every group of Christians. I can't change the past. I can only draw from it to enhance my future, and perhaps help others with their futures. I wouldn't have wished to be where I am now. I feel there is a lot that I could have done to help others, that has been stolen from me and stolen from God. I have learned to be happy with my lot. Godliness with contentment is great gain. I know God loves me and will never never leave or forsake or abandon me. Despite my many failures and weaknesses, in which He delights because He can "show off" and help me through. So, MRAP. Does that answer your question? Yes, it changed my life. For good? For bad?

Hi Allan :wave:/> And "bye" too, I think, didn't realise it was so late (1.35am)

2 Tim 3:7 The familiar version: King James Bible Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Some less familiar versions: International Standard Version - always studying but are never able to arrive at a full knowledge of the truth Douay-Rheims Bible - Ever learning, and never attaining to the knowledge of the truth. Darby Bible Translation always learning, and never able to come to [the] knowledge of [the] truth. Aramaic Bible in Plain English - Who are always learning and are never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Weymouth New Testament - and are always learning something new, and yet are never able to arrive at real knowledge of the truth. World English Bible - always learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary gives a slightly different slant: 3:1-9 ...Men love to gratify their own lusts, more than to please God and do their duty. When every man is eager for what he can get, and anxious to keep what he has, this makes men dangerous to one another. When men do not fear God, they will not regard man. ... Men are unholy and without the fear of God, because unthankful for the mercies of God. ...And when men have no rule over their own spirits, but despise that which is good and to be honoured. God is to be loved above all; but a carnal mind, full of enmity against him, prefers any thing before him, especially carnal pleasure. A form of godliness is very different from the power; from such as are found to be hypocrites, real Christians must withdraw. Such persons have been found within the outward church, in every place, and at all times. There ever have been artful men, who, by pretences and flatteries, creep into the favour and confidence of those who are too easy of belief, ignorant, and fanciful. All must be ever learning to know the Lord; but these follow every new notion, yet never seek the truth as it is in Jesus. Like the Egyptian magicians, these were men of corrupt minds, prejudiced against the truth, and found to be quite without faith. Yet though the spirit of error may be let loose for a time, Satan can deceive the nations and the churches no further, and no longer, than God will permit.

Krys, I don't know if TMVP is editing this stuff into paragraphs (and correcting spelling) but it's certainly a lot more readable and accessible. I think it's Raf continuing to combine and edit all TMVP's multitude of posts. TMVP isn't really engaging with the few posters that there are.

That sounds like an interesting thread, MRAP. How about you starting it? (You click on a button at the top to start your new thread in all of the forums here.) You will get some passionate responses Go for it!

You could add the next verse, too: 18 Cursed be he that maketh the blind to wander out of the way. And all the people shall say , Amen. ... because people came to PFAL being spiritually blind, and VPW set himself up as The Teacher, the leader, to remove that blindness, and he and the organization that he founded have certainly caused very many to wander out of the way, the true Way; to wander away from knowing Jesus Christ - the Way, the Truth and the Life. So - doubly cursed then. It's established.

And didn't VPW teach this as meaning the landmarks (boundaries) in one's mind (Is that from Renewed Mind class, or one of those collaterals?) He did more to shift people's mental boundaries than a shedload of newspapers, TV shows and the modern media in general. He did this by abuse of trust. He shifted people's mental boundaries for one purpose ... for a "land grab" to steal people's hearts and minds. And to corrupt them. To introduce heretical ideas, and abusive and licentious behavior. He read it. He taught it. ... He's cursed. And all the ex Way people said, Amen.

The same thing? There were allegations of sexual impropriety (okay, rape) against Paul? Gosh, I didn't know that! Yes, can see why "most of the believers" would leave his ministry, and turn against him. They were wise ... if that were the case.