Twinky

Welcome, BlueCord. Best wishes for a happy and healthy exit. You sound very determined and I think you will recover from Waybrain fairly quickly. You are NOT turning your back on God. You have no allegiance to a corrupt organisation, a false prophet, a fear-mongering lie machine. Whatever manipulations or threats or ill-treatment the Way throws at you, remember they did that to at least one poster here and probably more than one. Expect your name to be dragged through the mud and you will be called a possesso or maybe a homosexual or slandered in other ways. Don't get hung up on doctrine, look at what the local churches do, see how they treat you and each other, and don't be afraid to go to another if one doesn't suit you. You will find many excellent people who really walk the walk, and don't seek after their own glorification. Be open to hearing new interpretations of familiar scriptures, and consider what truth there may be in the new interpretations you're hearing. God has a rich, full, genuinely serving life ahead of you, one that is not empty or meaningless or unproductive. Enjoy exploring it. You can always bring confusion or doubt here. We've all escaped (with greater or lesser pain) and learned new ways to think, live, and enjoy life. We know it can be a strange journey you're embarking on.

Fear. Surrounding by bodyguards. I think of the Prez of the USA and the vast motorcade that carries him around. The henchmen and heavies that apparently surrounded VPW (he was dead before I got too involved, so no personal knowledge). I don't disbelief the reports. Even pop stars and other celebs have heavies to protect them (or enhance their egos). And I think of the Queen of England, a tiny woman only 5'2", who walks about, stands about, stands in open motor vehicles. With very little obvious protection detail. I have been at an event where she has been so close I could have reached out and touched her (she wouldn't mind; the very discreet SAS would have been watching veeerrry carefully). You (as Americans) might think she has little or no power; you'd be wrong. Simply, she is understated in all she does. She is the head of the Anglican church and always goes to church on Sundays (usually driving herself there) and sits quietly in some random pew (nowhere special, not the pew reserved for her.) She means it when she prays for her people, prays for God's strength in her life. But that's not a part of her public face; few actually see that. She herself writes, and records, a Christmas message and always mentions Jesus Christ and his accomplishments, and if you read through the speeches, she quietly explains the gospel message - to the world. Oh, and she never rants or raves at people. If the cornfield clown had been shot at.killed, it's hard to see what difference, in world terms, that would make. If the Queen had been killed, there would have been international mourning.

Hello Oldies. Long time no see. Is it really ten years? No, not quite that long.

In my Spam box in my Yahoo account appear various movies (adverts, really) which are a real pain. I daren't leave this account on Spam (have to return to Inbox) but even so, random movie ads will play in the background. I know this because they have sound - all is quiet for a while, then while I'm perhaps away from the laptop or in a different account (like Facebook or even GSC) - suddenly a spam movie will blare out. Quite startling, sometimes. And the laptop works slowly while it is thinking about what to do with the spam ad (before it starts playing and making noises). I have a Yahoo ad blocker which stops random ads appearing in the Inbox - however, this doesn't (clearly) work with Yahoo's own spam ads. Anybody got any suggestions, please?

I think if he'd have abused my daughter, though, I'd be wanting not to talk but to chop his head off with a hatchet, or kick him VERY hard in a place he'd find very uncomfortable. Or spit in his face. If he'd abused me ... I dunno, from what I saw of the daughter on a TV show (Dr Phil?), she's doing remarkably well for herself, considering. It wouldn't be surprising if she has some real anger towards him and if she didn't ever want to face him - in a courtroom or any other setting.

Waysider, on those restorative justice schemes, one of the requirements is to have to face the victim(s) and be told exactly what the effects on the victim have been. Restorative justice shows offenders that all of their activities affect others and >>they themselves<< are responsible for their choices and actions and can be held accountable for them. It's all done in a carefully controlled environment. Both/all parties have to agree, and there are trained counsellors / facilitators and a lot of support for the victim. The offender can't answer back, has to be quiet and listen, and not try to "justify" the offending behaviour. There's no physical contact (the vic can't beat the offender up!) It isn't suitable for all offences, particularly those involving domestic or sexual violence, and a careful risk assessment needs to be done, to safeguard the victim from further harm. Offenders who have been through the process often find it horrendous and may prefer to go to prison. Having to face the victim(s) makes their crime all the more real and forces the crims to see their victims as real people with real feelings and emotions. They have to face the anger, the hurt, the - whatever - of their victims. The victims find an opportunity to vent and often feel they have some "justice," where the sterile court system often makes them feel powerless, just a cog and not a person. If this abusive "minister" can't face his victims, he's gonna have an awfully hard time explaining himself to Jesus Christ - whose name he has taken in vain and used to abuse these young women. Jesus as principal victim isn't going to be all lovey-dovey about it.

Perhaps before then he will meet some nice "boyfriends" in prison. Find out what unwanted sexual attention feels like. No, I don't really wish him ill. But I don't wish him joy and happiness either. Be nice if he had to face his victims and hear their opinion of him. That would actually be harder for him than anything.

Nice to see you again after such a long absence, spuddy one.

I am really surprised at the lack of response on this thread. At the time I started it, there was a big row brewing over a couple of threads about "changes in doctrine" and I rather thought this might become a heated thread and one where people debated. But no. Them as wanted to row over other threads - have nothing to say. Which says it all really. Just threadkillers.

Hap, they might have been Huguenots but I think VPW would have enjoyed playing up the "standing for the truth" element if that were the case. He probably never knew - or understood - who and what the Huguenots were. I'm sure he never did any family research himself. Too much like hard work.

Who believes this story? Who's seen this chronology back to the 1300s? I doubt very much that they can trace the family line (and which family line would that be?) back that far. Unless there is some ancestor who was very grand. I thought this considered itself a mainly German family? Why choose some French coastal village as the ancestral heritage? It is 6 hrs fast driving in today's conditions, to get westward to Aachen, the nearest point of Germany. What, did they go from France to Germany and then to the USA? How long did that take, with a donkey and cart or on foot? I'd suspect the whole story is fabricated and someone found the name which looked similar and decided to build a legend, a fantasy, upon it, to add credibility to the ancientness of this "revered" (or reviled) family. Perhaps it's a family legend, not accusing anyone in the last few generations of inventing it. In any event... So what? How does this help with understanding JESUS CHRIST? (who genuinely had a long bloodline) (and never traded on it, himself)

The only bloodline that matters is the blood line that Jesus "wrote" on the cross. The descendants of that character you mention can make their own choices, bloodline or no. I respect that they might want to do something Godly. I don't respect how they choose to do that, by following in grandpa's footsteps. (Oops, double post.) Do not attempt to join forums after exceeding two drink limit. :smilie_kool_aid:/>

Well said, Chocky.

"Governments" is a choice of word made by the translators. KJV uses "higher powers" and other versions, other descriptors. The word "governments" or "powers" is this: ἐξουσίαις (exousiais) — 3 OccurrencesRomans 13:1 N-DFP GRK: Πᾶσα ψυχὴ ἐξουσίαις ὑπερεχούσαις ὑποτασσέσθω NAS: to the governing authorities. For there is no KJV: unto the higher powers. For INT: Every soul to authorities above [him] let be subject Ephesians 3:10 N-DFP GRK: καὶ ταῖς ἐξουσίαις ἐν τοῖς NAS: to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly KJV: and powers in INT: and the authorities in the Titus 3:1 N-DFP GRK: αὐτοὺς ἀρχαῖς ἐξουσίαις ὑποτάσσεσθαι πειθαρχεῖν NAS: to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, KJV: and powers, to obey magistrates, INT: them to rulers to authorities to be subject to be obedient So, you can see that "governments" is somebody's private interpretation. Derived from "exousia" (usu tr "authority" or "power"). Now the question becomes: to which "higher powers" or "authorities" is one to be subject? The ultimate "higher power" is God himself and that is to whom we are to be subject (if we profess to be Christians - or Jewish people - can't speak for other groups!) "For there is no power but from God; the powers that be are ordained by God." You have difficulty with this, Tom. Think about the many times in the OT that the Hebrews were warned that if they did not live according to the principles they'd been taught, they would be overrun by Amalekites, Assyrians or other marauding hordes? Were those oppressors "ordained by God" to show the Hebrews the error of their ways? Maybe! Who can fathom the mind of God? Remember, as a people, a nation, the Hebrews/ Israelites/ Jews were redeemed, time and time again. Tragic for the individuals (and their families) who were killed or captured; who knows how their faithfulness or otherwise might be treated - in eternity? What we do know is that the marauding hordes were all ultimately defeated, totally eradicated. Somebody mentioned on this thread the millions killed in the holocaust - but the regime that did that has come to a swift end and its successor regime, modern-day Germany, is very hot in punishing anyone exhibiting those ideas now. Pol Pot's regime has ended. So has Stalin's. Gal 5:22,23 "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law" - this is what the Christian's "higher power" expects of us. And this sort of ties in with following verses of Rom 13 "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same." Perhaps we all need to see with longer vision. Not looking just at our short-term lives on this earth, but our lives in eternity. Looking to Jesus, "the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God" - this same Jesus, subject to a cruel and barbaric set of "higher powers" in this earthly realm (both Roman and religious), and the one whose vision far exceeded the earthly life that he lived, and as a result was resurrected, and his example still exists over 2000 years later.

Okay, let's hear it then, TLC. Noting that you do reference Pentecost, are you also saying that makes no difference in the gospel that was / should be preached?

Mark, you can pet the kitty cats if you can catch them. One loves me (and only me) to fondle her - otherwise, she hides under the stairs if anyone else enters the house. Other one comes out and likes to be petted by walking under a stationary hand. Likes to be around people though. Picked her up once (by accident). Only had the silly creatures 8 years. They were born in the Cats Protection sanctuary, so I doubt they've ever been ill-treated. Yep, I think we'd have to agree that the verses you quote are both the gospel Jesus preached, and the gospel Paul preached.

Okay, guys... y'all keep saying there are a lot of differences between the gospel as preached by Jesus, and that as expounded by Paul. So have at it. What do you perceive as the differences, and why do you think that? Are the differences appropriate? Do some want to live like Jewish people? Or do they want to consider themselves as "dogs" (Mt 15:26) which is what Jesus calls a beseeching Canaanite woman? Right. Tossing the ball in...to.... plaaaayyyyyy.... now!

And therein lies the danger of reading everything in the epistles as though it applies directly to us, now (in whatever country and political regime we find ourselves). Wasn't this a political bit by Paul, who didn't want people falling out and getting into trouble with the super-power of the day? It's still a good idea to avoid conflict with government bodies... but there are limits. This could be a very interesting topic to discuss.

Submission? You have got to be MEEK! You have got to be MEEK! You have got to be MEEK! You have any thought of your own - any suggestion about how something (even something incredibly minor) could be done better - YOU ARE NOT MEEK TO THE WORD. YOU ARE NOT MEEK TO LEADERSHIP. You are prideful and worldly (or carnal) in your thoughts. You have got to be MEEK! And with everyone tattle-taling on the slightest aberration - oh yes, we'll enforce meekness upon you. How many threads have we had about "face melting"? What's that about? It's about not being meek. It's about terrorising the "meltee" into submission. Oh yes. Bullying into submission was an art form in TWI. All done in love, of course (cough, choke). :mad2:/>

TLC, why are you talking about Aaronic priesthoods? I'm not! I'm interested in "gift ministries" such as they may be. Arguably the Aaronic priesthood was a "gift ministry" at a specific time and to a specific group which is not the subject of this thread. The subject of this thread is: are there any definitions of Apostles, etc - outside of any TWI definitions. And that's what this thread was discussing, before your diversions. BTW I am not being condescending in asking you to please keep to the subject. I have requested you to present any point relevant to the subject of this thread succinctly so that it can be considered.

TLC, you overlook that God's plan wasn't to have one exclusive tribe (Israel) or sub-tribe (Judah (and Benjamin)) as His "pet" and only love that group. God's plan was that that tribe then subtribe should serve as an example to ALL nations. Which would then want to know more and come to to the knowledge of Him. The promises to Abraham in Gen 12 and Gen 18 (“And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice”) predate by centuries the "Jews" that you refer to. Please don't be argumentative. Think through your point and present it as succinctly as you can, so that those here who want to consider it can do so easily.

...as rabbi (gospels), organiser (gospels), apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher (Pauline epistles), healer (gospels), arguer, defender, helper etc.Maybe there really are no "gift ministries" to define, and what we have to do is simply to model our lives as closely as possible on how Jesus lived his earthly life. I am not sure, even, that what we do is limited by Jesus - or by God - but by what we ourselves simply prefer to do. Most people limit themselves by being afraid to speak, to do, to act. They simply don't grasp the fullness of … Eph 1:22,23 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. And 1 Cor 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. Whatever we do, all of our body is part of it. We were taught in TWI that we had differing functions that all worked together; people jested about being the "toenail" or a hair of the back of Christ. No! He is all in all, and we are all in all. Our DNA permeates every aspect of our bodies. So does our "spiritual DNA." Phil 4:13 "I can do all things through Him who strengthens me" is bigger than just dealing with our physical needs of lack or abundance. John 14:12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son." So, then, if Jesus was rabbi (gospels), organiser (gospels), apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher (Pauline epistles), healer (gospels), arguer, defender, helper etc... ...aren't we too supposed to be all of these things ...with no "ministries" other than our own preferences and choices at any given time? ...and how we miss out by thinking we're not up to the task... :( (I'm a bit grumpy this morning. Went to my housegroup last night and they were all so negative and so shy about speaking the gospel to anybody. "It's not our gift! But you're just so bold and you can talk to anybody, Twinky! We know we're afraid of offending people! You sound angry and critical, Twinky!". ... No, I'm not angry, I'm passionate that people should enjoy the fullness of the Christ in them, get out and serve others, and not use the excuse of hiding in the church walls and "serving" there.)

It took me a while but I am comfortable in the two churches I attend regularly. I do listen to things through the non-Trini filter though. And I find extemporary prayers rather garbled at times as to whom they are addressed, and in whose "name" they are prayed. I try to see beyond that. The people in the congregation are believers in God, in Jesus Christ and his accomplishments (even though their view and mine differ) and they pray with fervency of believing and expectation. I work in voluntary groups with other Christians and the trini idea never comes up; we all just love getting out there being the church in action and serving the people of this city with all our hearts, souls and strength. I have to say that though I may not be fully "onside" in a church (ie, a "church home"), I'm comfortable, happy, feel cared for and supported. AND, I feel a jolly sight more "at home" than I did when attending a splinter group for a short while or even just visiting a couple of Wayfer friends who regrettably are still seriously Waybrained. Now those fellowships (agh!) - they give me the creeps.

Again from Blue Letter Bible: