Twinky

We've been here before, Skyrider. A lot of people enjoyed the people in their twig and genuinely felt friendship and support from them. It was when one progressed from twig level that stuff really started to get pressurised. Which is not to say that twig leaders couldn't exert pressure, subtly or overtly, if they wanted to... the more overt were usually Corps-led twigs - but not all of them. I think also how far one was from HQ mattered, too. Or maybe that's more of an international perspective. If you live overseas, you might see an expectation build to go to the Rock - but not to SNS or to the big HQ events.

Good, everyone just stop name-calling and personal abuse. Stick to the topic in hand and it will all be so much more legible and understandable.

What's your take on what/who an Apostle is, then, DWBH? This might be a suitable time to re-visit "all" the VPW definitions of these God-given gifts to the church. Here's a definition of Apostle from the Bible Dictionary: Apostle which has a connotation of a person who is "sent" or "sent out" to do someone else's bidding.

MRAP, you started this thread with comments about John 11. How's about you start a thread in Doctrinal or some other appropriate place, stating what your thoughts are, quoting the REV verses you want to discuss, and expounding with your own comments on the verse(s) you want to discuss? Maybe that will engender a thread that stays more on topic and (as you seemed to want) to point out inconsistencies (or accuracies) on the REV version of that chapter.

Ya mean, if I say Raf Raf RAF, you suddenly appear in ghostly striped attire and wreak havoc (more than there usually is here?)?

It's good to have another look, and to think for yourself, Tom. I have met some awesome trinis and see they get prayers answered. They sincerely love God and you can see God at work in and through them. I have met some awesome NON trinis (though far fewer non-Ts) and see they also get prayers answered. They sincerely love God and you can see God at work in and through them, too. Conclusion: God and Jesus Christ have patience to put up with puny confused humans. They know we get things wrong. They aren't concerned so much about the details, as the heart to serve. It's important for us all (including that atheist Raf) ( :) ) to know what we believe, and why. Enjoy people with differing viewpoints. Don't start a war over it. Search diligently, open-mindedly, and use your (God-given) critical thinking. Life is more interesting without Kool-Aid. Or (alternative conclusion, that Raf might prefer) - neither God nor Jesus Christ exists. :evilshades:/>

There certainly are some radical trinis out there. I went to a local evening Bible school (to try to get a different non-Way view of things). There were a variety of teachers from different churchy backgrounds – it was interesting considering their points of view, some of which I would run by other churchmen whose views I had come to really respect. One of these teachers had the idea that Jesus was walking about in the OT and specifically referred to Dan3:25, where Jesus himself is in the furnace with Daniel and his buddies. Hmm. Give that one to your pastor, Tom. He’ll like it. Others think it hilarious.

If "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus is God, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him [Jesus] from the dead, thou shalt be saved " (based on KJV verse), then who exactly raised Jesus? Why not simply say, "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus is God, and shalt believe in thine heart that he arose from the dead…" There, right there in the verse, is the pointer to an outside agency, not Jesus as God. Did Jesus-God's power fail, then? Did Jesus-God not know how to pre-program his resurrection? You're talking about the creator of the universe, the "hands that flung stars into space" (one popular current song, gag, gag) – and he can't get up in the morning? Does Jesus-God have to rely on one of his side-kicks for a bit of extra help? "Lord" KJV Translation Count — Total: 748x The KJV translates Strongs G2962 in the following manner: Lord (667x), lord (54x), master (11x), sir (6x), Sir (6x), misc (4x). Outline of Biblical Usage [The Outline of Biblical Usage was created by Larry Pierce, creator of the Online Bible, and is used with permission.] (see my note below) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord the possessor and disposer of a thing the owner; one who has control of the person, the master in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor [*]is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master[*]this title is given to: God, the Messiah Strong's Definitions κύριος kýrios, koo'-ree-os; from κῦρος kŷros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Master (as a respectful title):—God, Lord, master, Sir. "God" KJV Translation Count — Total: 1,343x The KJV translates Strongs G2316 in the following manner: God (1,320x), god (13x), godly (3x), God-ward (with G4214) (2x), misc (5x). Outline of Biblical Usage (see my note below) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities the Godhead, trinity [*]spoken of the only and true God refers to the things of God his counsels, interests, things due to him [*]whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way God's representative or viceregent Strong's Definitions θεός theós, theh'-os; of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very:—X exceeding, God, god(-ly, -ward). The Outline of Biblical Usage / Online Bible has deliberately changed some of the definitions : "Online Bible also altered Thayer's definitions concerning the Holy Spirit and the divinity of Christ since Thayer was a Unitarian." (my emphasis) https://www.bluelett.../BLBStrongs.cfm (Source: BlueLetterBible – same info on CrossWalk) John Gill's commentary offers: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, That is, if a man shall make a good, sincere, and hearty confession to God, before the church and people of God, and before the world, that Christ is his Lord and Saviour, whom he desires to serve, and to be saved by; and this as arising from a comfortable experience of the grace of God in his soul, and from a true faith in Christ in his heart, wherefore it follows, and shall believe in thine heart, that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved; for this article of Christ's resurrection includes the several other articles of faith: it supposes his death, and that supposes his life, and the obedience of it; and his life implies his being here on earth, and that his coming down from heaven to do the will of his Father; and this is the rather mentioned, which is here ascribed to God the Father, though not to the exclusion of the Son and Spirit, because that Christ is risen again for our justification, with which true faith is principally concerned; for such a faith is intended, not which lies in a mere assent to the truth of this, or any other article of the Christian religion; but which is concerned with Christ for righteousness, life, and glory; and with such a faith salvation is certainly and inseparably connected. (http://www.biblestud...omans-10-9.html ) Even the sometimes funky Message gives this: Say the welcoming word to God - "Jesus is my Master" - embracing, body and soul, God's work of doing in us what he did in raising Jesus from the dead. Wycliffe gives this: "That if thou acknowledge in thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ, and believest in thine heart, that God raised him from death [that God raised him from dead], thou shalt be safe." Not one translation offers "Jesus is God" – you can view this one verse very easily in many online Bibles . (Edited to improve consistency of appearance, because copy&paste gives too many peculiar styles) of magistrates and judges God the Father, the first person in the trinity Christ, the second person of the trinity Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity

Wow, never heard that one before. I'm stuffed then.

What if you never had the perspective of what genuinely helps people? Then you never had "the truth" to start with! What if you had that perspective, but allowed it to slip away? What is "genuine help!" If what you "help" people with helps them into despair, poverty, sexual abuse; breaks up marriages instead of strengthening them; beats children instead of looking after them tenderly, as a nursing mother; destroys family relationships of all kinds (not allowed to family weddings - though allowed to funerals), can't spend time alone with your own family (have to be two by two); causes people to commit suicide and engage in risky behavior with inadequate supports? And so on. What if the help erodes moral and mental boundaries, causes the standards that are generally accepted by the population to be attacked at their root? Like respect for other people's family lives, property, and personal privacy? For sure - help people to overcome obstacles in their lives, deal with inappropriate behavior etc. For sure, teach them that God wants them free and living in the abundance of his love -but don't then ensure that their only freedom is to parrot Bible verses without understanding the very context of those verses. Don't help people to become abusers, rapists and bullies. Don't help them to become incompetent morons who have lost the ability to think for themselves. Don't help them into such low self-esteem. Woe to those that call bondage "freedom" and captivity "abundance." Is "help" one of those Way-words that has acquired a meaning completely opposite to what the normal populace understands?

Yeah, I hear ya, Oakspear. I thought it was creepy too. Especially since he was DEAD by the time I'd got involved. I also thought his self-appointed title The Teacher was creepy if not to say megalo. But I rationalised that to think that he meant a research or communications dept. I wonder if anybody actually did "write The Teacher..." and got any sensible sort of answer? I know a good many respectable clergymen nowadays and they are ALL referred to by their first names. Occasionally the might be referred to as (say) Bishop Peter, because Peter as a name is not uncommon and to add his designation of bishop simply clarifies who's meant. And other than in highly ritualistic situations, none of the church higher-ups expects anything other than the hospitality that would naturally be extended to a visitor or guest.

On another site, someone posted about attending a Geerite fellowship in Tennessee. So it seems as though Geer and his henchmen and his perverted teachings haven't yet sunk into oblivion. Anyway, Raf, this thread needs moving from The Way in Europe, since it's a very long time since Europe has been (dis)graced by his presence.

Lots of the things that were said weren't unique to Weirwille or anyone associated with TWI. They're what some might call "horse sense" (I think that's what VPW called it) - others might say, good common sense, or old wives' wisdom, or some such. Just cos VPW said something doesn't mean he "invented" the proverb. Just like the book of Proverbs is good common sense and no doubt a collection of sayings and ways of thinking that were common enough at the time - relevant then AND now.

Thank God, there are no Wayfers around here that might remind me of what anyone at that place said or did. I agree with you about it sounding a bit sinister. And juvenile, as though those saying it still haven't begun to grow up and think for themselves. But it's a common enough expression... "It's like..." So, where do you start unpicking it? You could startle people by saying, "It's like - that means it isn't..." As in: "It's like Dr W said...." " Ah, it's only like - it's not what he said/did, which was..." "It's like HA said...." " Ah, it's only like - but this is the real deal." Or, "It's not like anything he did, but it is like what my Mom/my teacher/the preacher at church did..." Or, "It's like Dr W did." "Oh, you mean, lied, stole, deceived, coveted money, attacked women, died..." (choose your event) Or simply, "So what?" - or "So what? even HA said sensible things once in a while. Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day; you just don't know when."

I am not reading that, you meanie, Raf.

Yeah, Raf, I know someone will try (WW probably). If anyone does, please preface with a warning. Better yet, link to some page elsewhere so that those who don't want to be reminded don't have to look.

That is a good point, TLC. Especially when we were discouraged from reading the gospels (being as they weren't written to us) except for the select bits in PFAL.

Spec - if you want to know a bit more about grace, try a read of Yancey's "What's So Amazing About Grace?" or Swindoll's "The Grace Awakening." Both are a jolly sight more "accessible" than PFAL.

I think WW is right, one of the supposed benefits was "rest to the soul." Isn't is also supposed to build you up in the inner man? And several other supposed benefits? Haven't thought of these in years and please, nobody remind me by posting here!!! :evilshades:/>

What I know: 1. As a little kid of say 7-9 years old, I'd often spend time "talking in foreign languages" - now whether this was gibberish or SIT I couldn't say. I'd been to Sunday school and loved Jesus in my kiddie way. I'd never heard of SIT as far as I'm aware. As I got older, I made up tunes for the made-up words but didn't spend a lot of time doing either. 2. When I was invited to twig and people SIT/TIP, I actually didn't pay much attention as a "gift from God" or whatever; more, it was, Oh, so other people do this too. 3. Way after TWI, at the church I used to go to and the one I now attend (a "daughter church") (where nobody has ever heard of TWI) at times people just sing quietly in tongues. That freaked me out at first (Waydaze) but it's actually quite musical and pleasant - and a "respectful" and peaceful sound. The people so doing clearly believe they are SIT or whatever they want to call it. 4. Other Christians who I have come to know (from a wide variety of backgrounds and churches) will, alongside someone praying in English or after they themselves have prayed for someone in English - they will very quietly make sounds that are not English; they may say they are "praying in the spirit" or "talking in tongues;" Wayfers would call it SIT. Although I've never heard SIT taught in church (by any name), it's not uncommonly known. How people are supposed to know or learn I have no idea. Nobody seems to either ask or answer that question. But it is widely accepted that some (at least) do do this thing and it's not thought odd or out of order or discouraged. I think some believe it is a special gift that you either get, or don't. I know one elderly woman who dearly wanted to SIT but "hadn't been given the gift" - but both her daughters (who by this time went to different churches) did. They were all escapees from the Exclusive Brethren, which is about as weird as TWI; I doubt they learned about SIT there. None of this makes SIT real or fake - it does mean that there is a huge number of people out there who have been duped, if it's fake. And it would also mean it's a widespread fake across many denominations. Oh, and by the way: I have NEVER encountered any group that "manifests" by SIT/TIP. People who "have a message" are much more circumspect in how they present it or offer it to the congregation.

Hiliarious, Spec. Love the Plagiarize song. Don't often laugh out loud, but that one gave me a real belly-laugh.

And perhaps that's one of the reasons we are as Crhistians encouraged to meet together. So that we can learn from the "pockets of truth" that others have; so that we can see how God is at work in someone else or in some situation; to help us get a bigger picture. Spend enough time with Christians from other denominations or backgrounds, and you'll see common threads in how they feel God talks to them or shows them things, or works in situations. God is bigger than one person, one book, one denomination, one culture. It might not be a bad idea to think about your neighbor, the person next to you in the pew, the colleague at the next desk - and think (with meekness), how does God work in this person's life, and how can I learn from him? This person has Christ in her (the hope of glory); how does that "Christ" serve the world in her life?

Psalms 2:4 isn't about God having a sense of humor at all. It's about God scorning (or scoffing at) the machinations of his enemies. Off topic to this thread: God really does have a sense of humor, but it's more of what you might call good harmless fun. Stuff that allows a kindly chuckle, rather than a searing put-down. (I doubt that's changed, through any "dispensational" period.)

Plagiarism is theft. Intellectual property theft. Theft of ideas. Theft of "work product," as you Americans might say. A sculptor sculpts. Suppose the sculptor makes a beautiful marble statue. An artist paints. Suppose the artist makes a painting, a watercolor of ... his horse, say. Somebody without permission takes the statue or the watercolor away - it's easy to see that as theft. An inventor invents. Devises new ways of doing things. New methods. That's why he patents his ideas, his device, his formula. Because then if anyone uses his ideas without permission - it's theft. An author writes. Suppose the author writes a novel. Or even the factual history of widget manufacture. The writing then becomes copyright. And the right to copy remains with the author, who can grant or withhold permission to make copies or use the material. Somebody without permission takes the words away. It's still theft. And we fell for it. We fell for a load of lies. Peddled by a bunch of thieves. All that came before Jesus were thieves and robbers - as are some of those who've come after him. And we, all Wayfers, are in receipt of stolen property :blink:/>

Oh Sunesis, I so hear you. I'm still wrestling with this myself. I have a "God-concept" but not really a "Jesus concept" or "Christ concept" and wonder about this "relationship with Christ." I have a relationship, sure, but not as fully as some appear to have. It's more like having a relative that you see occasionally (or rarely) - you know they're there and where they fit in your life (like your uncle in another city, say) but the closeness that you might see between siblings or cousins or people who have grown up together and know each other well ... isn't there. Not sure what to do about that.