Twinky

Waysider, on those restorative justice schemes, one of the requirements is to have to face the victim(s) and be told exactly what the effects on the victim have been. Restorative justice shows offenders that all of their activities affect others and >>they themselves<< are responsible for their choices and actions and can be held accountable for them. It's all done in a carefully controlled environment. Both/all parties have to agree, and there are trained counsellors / facilitators and a lot of support for the victim. The offender can't answer back, has to be quiet and listen, and not try to "justify" the offending behaviour. There's no physical contact (the vic can't beat the offender up!) It isn't suitable for all offences, particularly those involving domestic or sexual violence, and a careful risk assessment needs to be done, to safeguard the victim from further harm. Offenders who have been through the process often find it horrendous and may prefer to go to prison. Having to face the victim(s) makes their crime all the more real and forces the crims to see their victims as real people with real feelings and emotions. They have to face the anger, the hurt, the - whatever - of their victims. The victims find an opportunity to vent and often feel they have some "justice," where the sterile court system often makes them feel powerless, just a cog and not a person. If this abusive "minister" can't face his victims, he's gonna have an awfully hard time explaining himself to Jesus Christ - whose name he has taken in vain and used to abuse these young women. Jesus as principal victim isn't going to be all lovey-dovey about it.

Perhaps before then he will meet some nice "boyfriends" in prison. Find out what unwanted sexual attention feels like. No, I don't really wish him ill. But I don't wish him joy and happiness either. Be nice if he had to face his victims and hear their opinion of him. That would actually be harder for him than anything.

Nice to see you again after such a long absence, spuddy one.

I am really surprised at the lack of response on this thread. At the time I started it, there was a big row brewing over a couple of threads about "changes in doctrine" and I rather thought this might become a heated thread and one where people debated. But no. Them as wanted to row over other threads - have nothing to say. Which says it all really. Just threadkillers.

Hap, they might have been Huguenots but I think VPW would have enjoyed playing up the "standing for the truth" element if that were the case. He probably never knew - or understood - who and what the Huguenots were. I'm sure he never did any family research himself. Too much like hard work.

Who believes this story? Who's seen this chronology back to the 1300s? I doubt very much that they can trace the family line (and which family line would that be?) back that far. Unless there is some ancestor who was very grand. I thought this considered itself a mainly German family? Why choose some French coastal village as the ancestral heritage? It is 6 hrs fast driving in today's conditions, to get westward to Aachen, the nearest point of Germany. What, did they go from France to Germany and then to the USA? How long did that take, with a donkey and cart or on foot? I'd suspect the whole story is fabricated and someone found the name which looked similar and decided to build a legend, a fantasy, upon it, to add credibility to the ancientness of this "revered" (or reviled) family. Perhaps it's a family legend, not accusing anyone in the last few generations of inventing it. In any event... So what? How does this help with understanding JESUS CHRIST? (who genuinely had a long bloodline) (and never traded on it, himself)

The only bloodline that matters is the blood line that Jesus "wrote" on the cross. The descendants of that character you mention can make their own choices, bloodline or no. I respect that they might want to do something Godly. I don't respect how they choose to do that, by following in grandpa's footsteps. (Oops, double post.) Do not attempt to join forums after exceeding two drink limit. :smilie_kool_aid:/>

Well said, Chocky.

"Governments" is a choice of word made by the translators. KJV uses "higher powers" and other versions, other descriptors. The word "governments" or "powers" is this: ἐξουσίαις (exousiais) — 3 OccurrencesRomans 13:1 N-DFP GRK: Πᾶσα ψυχὴ ἐξουσίαις ὑπερεχούσαις ὑποτασσέσθω NAS: to the governing authorities. For there is no KJV: unto the higher powers. For INT: Every soul to authorities above [him] let be subject Ephesians 3:10 N-DFP GRK: καὶ ταῖς ἐξουσίαις ἐν τοῖς NAS: to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly KJV: and powers in INT: and the authorities in the Titus 3:1 N-DFP GRK: αὐτοὺς ἀρχαῖς ἐξουσίαις ὑποτάσσεσθαι πειθαρχεῖν NAS: to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, KJV: and powers, to obey magistrates, INT: them to rulers to authorities to be subject to be obedient So, you can see that "governments" is somebody's private interpretation. Derived from "exousia" (usu tr "authority" or "power"). Now the question becomes: to which "higher powers" or "authorities" is one to be subject? The ultimate "higher power" is God himself and that is to whom we are to be subject (if we profess to be Christians - or Jewish people - can't speak for other groups!) "For there is no power but from God; the powers that be are ordained by God." You have difficulty with this, Tom. Think about the many times in the OT that the Hebrews were warned that if they did not live according to the principles they'd been taught, they would be overrun by Amalekites, Assyrians or other marauding hordes? Were those oppressors "ordained by God" to show the Hebrews the error of their ways? Maybe! Who can fathom the mind of God? Remember, as a people, a nation, the Hebrews/ Israelites/ Jews were redeemed, time and time again. Tragic for the individuals (and their families) who were killed or captured; who knows how their faithfulness or otherwise might be treated - in eternity? What we do know is that the marauding hordes were all ultimately defeated, totally eradicated. Somebody mentioned on this thread the millions killed in the holocaust - but the regime that did that has come to a swift end and its successor regime, modern-day Germany, is very hot in punishing anyone exhibiting those ideas now. Pol Pot's regime has ended. So has Stalin's. Gal 5:22,23 "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law" - this is what the Christian's "higher power" expects of us. And this sort of ties in with following verses of Rom 13 "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same." Perhaps we all need to see with longer vision. Not looking just at our short-term lives on this earth, but our lives in eternity. Looking to Jesus, "the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God" - this same Jesus, subject to a cruel and barbaric set of "higher powers" in this earthly realm (both Roman and religious), and the one whose vision far exceeded the earthly life that he lived, and as a result was resurrected, and his example still exists over 2000 years later.

Okay, let's hear it then, TLC. Noting that you do reference Pentecost, are you also saying that makes no difference in the gospel that was / should be preached?

Mark, you can pet the kitty cats if you can catch them. One loves me (and only me) to fondle her - otherwise, she hides under the stairs if anyone else enters the house. Other one comes out and likes to be petted by walking under a stationary hand. Likes to be around people though. Picked her up once (by accident). Only had the silly creatures 8 years. They were born in the Cats Protection sanctuary, so I doubt they've ever been ill-treated. Yep, I think we'd have to agree that the verses you quote are both the gospel Jesus preached, and the gospel Paul preached.

Okay, guys... y'all keep saying there are a lot of differences between the gospel as preached by Jesus, and that as expounded by Paul. So have at it. What do you perceive as the differences, and why do you think that? Are the differences appropriate? Do some want to live like Jewish people? Or do they want to consider themselves as "dogs" (Mt 15:26) which is what Jesus calls a beseeching Canaanite woman? Right. Tossing the ball in...to.... plaaaayyyyyy.... now!

And therein lies the danger of reading everything in the epistles as though it applies directly to us, now (in whatever country and political regime we find ourselves). Wasn't this a political bit by Paul, who didn't want people falling out and getting into trouble with the super-power of the day? It's still a good idea to avoid conflict with government bodies... but there are limits. This could be a very interesting topic to discuss.

Submission? You have got to be MEEK! You have got to be MEEK! You have got to be MEEK! You have any thought of your own - any suggestion about how something (even something incredibly minor) could be done better - YOU ARE NOT MEEK TO THE WORD. YOU ARE NOT MEEK TO LEADERSHIP. You are prideful and worldly (or carnal) in your thoughts. You have got to be MEEK! And with everyone tattle-taling on the slightest aberration - oh yes, we'll enforce meekness upon you. How many threads have we had about "face melting"? What's that about? It's about not being meek. It's about terrorising the "meltee" into submission. Oh yes. Bullying into submission was an art form in TWI. All done in love, of course (cough, choke). :mad2:/>

TLC, why are you talking about Aaronic priesthoods? I'm not! I'm interested in "gift ministries" such as they may be. Arguably the Aaronic priesthood was a "gift ministry" at a specific time and to a specific group which is not the subject of this thread. The subject of this thread is: are there any definitions of Apostles, etc - outside of any TWI definitions. And that's what this thread was discussing, before your diversions. BTW I am not being condescending in asking you to please keep to the subject. I have requested you to present any point relevant to the subject of this thread succinctly so that it can be considered.

TLC, you overlook that God's plan wasn't to have one exclusive tribe (Israel) or sub-tribe (Judah (and Benjamin)) as His "pet" and only love that group. God's plan was that that tribe then subtribe should serve as an example to ALL nations. Which would then want to know more and come to to the knowledge of Him. The promises to Abraham in Gen 12 and Gen 18 (“And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice”) predate by centuries the "Jews" that you refer to. Please don't be argumentative. Think through your point and present it as succinctly as you can, so that those here who want to consider it can do so easily.

...as rabbi (gospels), organiser (gospels), apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher (Pauline epistles), healer (gospels), arguer, defender, helper etc.Maybe there really are no "gift ministries" to define, and what we have to do is simply to model our lives as closely as possible on how Jesus lived his earthly life. I am not sure, even, that what we do is limited by Jesus - or by God - but by what we ourselves simply prefer to do. Most people limit themselves by being afraid to speak, to do, to act. They simply don't grasp the fullness of … Eph 1:22,23 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. And 1 Cor 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. Whatever we do, all of our body is part of it. We were taught in TWI that we had differing functions that all worked together; people jested about being the "toenail" or a hair of the back of Christ. No! He is all in all, and we are all in all. Our DNA permeates every aspect of our bodies. So does our "spiritual DNA." Phil 4:13 "I can do all things through Him who strengthens me" is bigger than just dealing with our physical needs of lack or abundance. John 14:12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son." So, then, if Jesus was rabbi (gospels), organiser (gospels), apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher (Pauline epistles), healer (gospels), arguer, defender, helper etc... ...aren't we too supposed to be all of these things ...with no "ministries" other than our own preferences and choices at any given time? ...and how we miss out by thinking we're not up to the task... :( (I'm a bit grumpy this morning. Went to my housegroup last night and they were all so negative and so shy about speaking the gospel to anybody. "It's not our gift! But you're just so bold and you can talk to anybody, Twinky! We know we're afraid of offending people! You sound angry and critical, Twinky!". ... No, I'm not angry, I'm passionate that people should enjoy the fullness of the Christ in them, get out and serve others, and not use the excuse of hiding in the church walls and "serving" there.)

It took me a while but I am comfortable in the two churches I attend regularly. I do listen to things through the non-Trini filter though. And I find extemporary prayers rather garbled at times as to whom they are addressed, and in whose "name" they are prayed. I try to see beyond that. The people in the congregation are believers in God, in Jesus Christ and his accomplishments (even though their view and mine differ) and they pray with fervency of believing and expectation. I work in voluntary groups with other Christians and the trini idea never comes up; we all just love getting out there being the church in action and serving the people of this city with all our hearts, souls and strength. I have to say that though I may not be fully "onside" in a church (ie, a "church home"), I'm comfortable, happy, feel cared for and supported. AND, I feel a jolly sight more "at home" than I did when attending a splinter group for a short while or even just visiting a couple of Wayfer friends who regrettably are still seriously Waybrained. Now those fellowships (agh!) - they give me the creeps.

Again from Blue Letter Bible:

From Blue Letter Bible: Comments, anybody?

Thanks, DWBH and Rocky. I had a nice day and was taken out to the best Italian restaurant in the city, in the evening. All the waiters sang to me (and all the other birthday people). Lovely :) :) :) 40... if only... On second thoughts... when I was 40 I was still a "prisoner" of that organisation. Life is much better outside the walls of "the household."

Peace, DWBH. I'm just not going to get involved in your fight with MRAP. BTW I did see that interview with Lindsay and her father. I was with Ex10 and we were open-mouthed and shocked. It sounded unbelievably appalling - even to us, who have some background in the bizarre practices of TWI and its offshoots. How on earth could anyone do that? How could parents do that? And to their own daughter?!!!!

What does that mean? Do you mean, j'accuse? T-Bone, the film you're thinking of is "Spotlight" - excellent film. I found myself more than a little disturbed after seeing the film - angry at the cover-up, angry and distressed at what had been done to all of us by TWI.

That Mrs W in the front row, in the striped coat? The only one not smiling? Probably wondering which of the babes he's planning to "bless" later that day. Or night.

From my FB newsfeed: (KMSP) - Brazil’s highest court, the Supremo Tribunal Federal, has approved the extradition of alleged cult leader victor Barnard to Minnesota, where he faces 52 counts of sexually abusing minors in his religious sect. Pine County Attorney Reese Frederickson confirms for Fox 9 that he has been notified that extradition will now proceed, but he was unaware of the timeline or other details. Marsh Halberg, Barnard’s defense attorney, told Fox 9 it was Barnard who requested the expedited decision, which Halberg says was made by a smaller panel of the Brazilian Supreme Court. Halberg said he believes the timeline for Barnard to arrive back in Minnesota would be in the next six months. Brazilian media are reporting that one of the conditions for extradition is that Barnard does not face more than 30 years in prison, and that his time already spent in Brazil be deducted from his sentence. The ruling from Brazil's high court, which includes these conditions, cannot be appealed. Halberg says he believes Brazil’s condition, that Barnard not face more than 30 years if convicted, could be a stumbling block. Barnard is 54 years old. “I don’t know if, as a matter of policy, the U.S. government would agree to conditionally extradite someone,” Halberg said. “In a practical sense, it would be a life sentence anyway." Barnard’s religious group, the River Road Fellowship, had remained largely unknown until a major investigation by the Fox 9 Investigators in February 2014 that revealed two women who say they were sexually abused by Barnard when they were just 12 and 13 years old. That investigation led to criminal charges and a global manhunt for Barnard, who was eventually captured in Brazil. In November 2015, Brazil media reported that Barnard tried to hang himself in a suicide attempt while in a federal prison in Brazil. But other reporting indicated he may have been assaulted by fellow prisoners. Methinks that even if he gets a max of 30 years (which means he'll be in his 80s at projected release date), he may not survive so long... prisoners don't like men like him, he might suffer a few accidents... the last of which might be fatal.