Twinky

Welcome, Bapsy. Glad you got out. It's good to give; but tithing is one of many things TWI got wrong. 2002 - you have "stickability" if you've been with them since then. And you have common sense, to have escaped now and be thinking things through for yourself. Well done. Be cautious, though, in utilising ex-Way splinter group resources; acknowledge their provenance. Some are more worthy than others; some are just a re-hash of old material. Let's hope Jessie makes it through too - but in less time.

From their website today: Board of Directors Rev. Rosalie F. Rivenbark, Chairman Rev. Jean-Yves De Lisle Rev. John Rupp Who's missing? I'm not up enough to know. J0hn Reyn0lds used to run IO (80s and 90s, at least) and wasn't he also on the BoD more latterly? Sometimes I find it a bit odd that D0nna isn't on the BoD but perhaps she's learned from being married to LCM. Or maybe she gets enough of the jollies and is content to have none of the responsibility. In passing, I note that they now have an email address to Contact Us, though it's not as easy and definitely not as anonymous as most e-contact addresses. You have to give your name and address in full before getting to the invitation to present your query. Death by boredom. maybe... (yawn)

Hi Brainstormer, and welcome to the Cafe. Plenty of people here with very diverse views. All linked by the one connection: TWI. It would be fair to say that most, if not all, of us got involved by hearing Bible teaching of an apparent standard that we hadn't heard before. And in its initial levels, the Bible taught is quite good. That's because it was pinched from quite a number of people who had studied it, and were able to teach it. The plagiarized version presented to TWI beginners was never and still is not as good. But it may depend, from your child's point of view, on how well taught she was by other churches. Also, at initial levels, there is a great feeling of cameraderie and fellowship with other believers. Who, mostly, are pretty great people. The problem arises as one gets sucked deeper and deeper in. Way-based activities tend to displace time for non-Way related activities and spending time with friends and family. It's slow, and subtle, and deadly. Gentle nudges in a direction different from where she might otherwise have been going. It's likely that Jessie will be being taught overtly or by example, that family and old friends are dangerous to her walk with God: that they will either pleasure her or pressure her from "the truth;" therefore, the more you challenge her beliefs, the more it will be seen that you are working to distract her in her walk with God, and you may even be working against God. I am sorry to say that that is what many of us wanted too. The desire to know God and give glory to him is in fact the vulnerability! Some of us had previous good jobs and high-level professional qualifications. I would suggest that you don't challenge doctrinal issues (which you will also find between most denominations) but the outcome of those issues and the practicalities of Way life. Like: cutting oneself off from friends and family; not being around for family events; dropping her Christian friends (of course, they may drop her!); and, of course, not fulfilling her God-given skills and abilities by pursuing her career ambitions. Remind her (very gently) that Jesus hung around with all sort of disreputable people (the religious high-ups of the day condemned him for hanging out with thieves and prostitutes) - Jesus clearly "mucked in" with them - wasn't preachy and strident but drew people to him by his genuine kindness and compassion. Jesus was only strident with hypocrites of the religious classes - not with ordinary people or his own followers. How does Way leadership treat her? Treat other people? How are people who don't spend a lot of time with the group treated? Or are they shunned? The comments from people here are from a long period of time, decades; they are from people who may never have met each other to "compare notes" but who have the same sort of stories to tell; some of us were "in" for a long period. As others have said - be kind to her, keep the door open. You might want to show some interest in what she is being taught, so that you can either point out that that is what she has already learned (from the local community of Christians), or how it differs from what is taught elsewhere in the Bible. She will probably be very hot on what it says in the epistles and maybe Acts; not so hot on and dismissive of the gospel and OT, so gently draw any points of difference from the epistles, if you can.

Lanikaigal, welcome. I so relate to your "being witnessed to" experience. I get JW doorknockers from time to time, nothing new - but one day I was out walking and observed some Mormons doing their doorknocking thing. And it struck me - that "was me," at one time, beating the feet up and down streets, hopefully knocking on doors but being rejected... I wonder how many people have ever truly been reached by any bunch of people "door knocking." Stick around, I'm sure you have a lot to contribute.

T-Bone - that yacht in your imagination, of course! Magical thinking? Here's Magic Yacht (yes, it really is called that!).

You might like Derren Brown's debunking videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X56Kmbgn6dE. It's quite long,but even just the first ten minutes is interesting. And, a bit off topic, here's something about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuP5uOI7Xwc. There's a bit around minute 44 that might have a familiar ring to it, but the whole article is worth watching.

Nobody can read minds. But some people are more adept than others at reading body language. Or, perhaps, recognising what certain body language movements actually signal, about that person's thoughts. Most of us have some ability, even if we don't recognise it much. But some people make a study of it. Con-men, for example. Salesmen. Those who want something from you. Manipulators. Even then, other people don't know your precise thoughts, only those mirrored by certain actions or behaviours at that particular time.. They don't know unless they ask careful questions that you are concerned about your cat, or your auntie Susie, or that the bank sent you a threatening letter just yesterday. They don't know the name of your boss, your friends or your yacht without asking those questions by some means.

VPW always used to say that the devil couldn't read thoughts. Extend that a bit ... the devil's minions can't read thoughgs (otherwise, they'd be cleverer than the devil). The devil's minions that seemingly spoke to VPW (pretending (?) to be God) couldn't read his mind and they certainly couldn't read yours and tell VPW or any of his human minions what you were thinking. Oh course, none of that stops people showing off, or pretending to get revelation, or trying to showboat someone/something or gaslight someone/something or otherwise generally put lesser mortals down a peg or two.

:)

Rocky, yes! We're on the same side, perhaps the written bit didn't come through as well as it might have done if spoken. DL does well to question - everything! Thank God for the ability to use our critical thinking skills - again. Like this better? If you one were to believe that cancer is caused by devil spirits, then also remember: That Jesus Christ is bigger than, and casts out, devil spirits. Carry on thinking :)

This is Braker's website: http://www.povertyvswealth.com/

Interesting and different... finding my way around. Easier for all of us than for you folks upgrading... Thanks for all your hard work.

I'm just wondering what people think about hypnotherapy, whether it works (lastingly) - what it is, really. I was listening to someone on the radio the other day who'd had a fear of water and after one session had found herself able to get into a swimming bath and swim (somehow) for about 25m. Being hypnotised has never had any attraction for me but I can see it might be beneficial to people who have serious phobias about "unimportant" things and some have reported great success in being able to give up smoking after having smoked for many years or decades. If a person is terrified of even the friendliest dog, or cat, or of spiders, or open spaces, not to mention more obscure phobias ... these could significantly impact on one's quality of life. The Way taught that hypnotism was opening oneself up to devil spirit possession; if you weren't in control of your mind/thinking, who or what was? I think that can be an argument the other way too - if you have an unreasonable fear (phobia) that hinders your everyday life, who or what is in control there? Any thoughts, anyone? I seriously DON'T want this to become a Way-beating topic, which is why I've not opened it in About The Way or in Doctrinal. Please try to stay away from those aspects of this topic as much as possible.

"Diameter of the Ages," what the heck is that? This class sounds like "Die-a-Minute" - the excerpt that DWBH posted is more than enough for me. :confused:/>

It was a wonderfully exciting time being in rez with that awesome President, Craig, to teach us the ways of a man of God. I learned some amazing things. Like, what a 40 year old man looks like when he's having a serious tantrum. Like, lots of interesting ways to curse other people. Lots of swear-words that were new to me. Like, how pozzest and ungodly were homosexuals. Like, how unworthy I was, and how gracious the tantrum-thrower was in allowing me to stay in rez and learn even more from him. How weak I was in not coping with 20 hr days. How sinful it was to talk to staff members. Like, how unworthy practically all of my in rez Corps was. How gracious he was in allowing us to stay and be guided by him. :evilshades:/>

I'm not a thread killer, DWBH. But the calm, more measured, objective, style often reaches people more than a rant does. You only have to read VPW's letters for rants, and think of the face-meltings many here endured. Imitating his style...isn't a good look, IMO. Can't we be objective, not objectionable? Jesus called the Pharisees "nests of vipers" but he is kind to those who want to listen (including Pharisees). He did not mock people's names. He called them on their attitudes and (lack of) love for God. He did not attack anyone who loves God, even when they are in error. If he screamed at his followers in the behavior that has been modeled for us by some leaders - d'ya think he would have any followers? Wouldn't he be a "thread killer"? (A "red thread" killer, maybe.) But that's not how he behaved. And it's not what befits any other Christian leader, of any organization - or cult.

Thanks, modcat. Makes a much better read now. And won't put off newbies/lurkers.

DogLover... You appear to be suffering from Waybrain, so sorry! The super-spiritual (LOL! gasp!!) man invented it. Or was listening to the wrong kind of spirits (liquid ones, maybe.) And don't forget that Mr Super-Spiritual died of cancer; more than one type. But anyway: 1. If you were to believe that cancer is caused by devil spirits, then also remember: 2. Then also believe that Jesus Christ is bigger than, and casts out, devil spirits. No problem!!

:offtopic:/> That's one reason to use the Private Messaging facility. Investigate the area at the top right of the screen. Click by your name, and you will find Messenger. You need to [start to] type in the addressee's name (not initials). Hey presto! No derails!

And, FWIW, I was a dyed in the wool TWIt, hadn't been satisfied with any church, boring; here was someone who knew some Bible!! And I went through WC training and did all the rubbish things like alienating my family and friends (or rather, alienating myself) blah blah, finally got thrown out. Which though devastating at the time turned out to be a real blessing. Don't know when I would have left otherwise. Probably have ended up being ... I won't speculate, but a lot of women were abused and someone had been having a go at me, "softening me up." It was awful. Awful. I was depressed for about 10 years. Near suicidal. But now - I make lemonade from it. I thought I had compassion before. Maybe... but nothing like now. I didn't understand abused women, and how they kept returning to abusing partners. I do now. I didn't understand a lot of things... I do now. I've not "changed" to become a different person. I've changed to become freer to become ME.

Excellent post, Penworks. It seems to me that not only can we change as we grow older, but that we should change. When one is 5 years old, parents and other adults give information and instructions. As one ages, that information and instruction may change. And as the information and instruction changes, it ought to change the shape of each individual. The five year old gains understanding and wisdom. Becomes able to make its own decisions, give itself "instructions." That growing and ability to make decisions is called maturity but does it have a finite point? We know only in part - and that will remain so all our lives. And so we are never fully mature, all our lives. Just more mature than we were a few years earlier (perhaps). Do you still believe and act as you did when you were five years old? Few adults do. If you went to tertiary education or professional training, do you still think the same as you did before? Or do you have more wisdom to make decisions? Are you better able to foresee possible outcomes? Yes, you changed! You don't think as you did, when you were a child. Have crises affected your life - maybe the death of a loved one with whom you'd been very close? Maybe a severe accident (they're not called "life-changing injuries" for nothing!)? Yes, you changed! You learned to adapt to the new circumstances. Your underlying personality probably never changes; it's how you express that personality. And what you take into account. What you allow to affect you. How you deal with things. We are not set in stone. We are not required to have hearts of stone - in fact, quite the opposite. We are required to change - to be transformed - to become different people. And yet, remain true to ourselves. And to our God (if we have one!). We should embrace the opportunity to grow and change. It's exciting.

I think that almost qualifies as a "Grease Spot Gem."

Apologies, it looked right when I posted it but re-reading makes it less than logical. Thanks, Modcat. It did feel like I was about to become victim to some of DWBH's ire. I don't like the way he shouts and calls people names; he knows this. Anger at some of he higher-ups I can understand; anger at other posters is out of order. If people shout, I just smile and back off... don't re-engage. I have to say, I'm getting really fed up with the bickering here at the Cafe. Maybe I will just back off... for a long while... I only stay because I hope that a calm and rational voice might be appreciated by some.

You know, if you wanted dto post this on the Doctrinal thread I referred to, it might be helpful to some people: I think that could add something to the discussion there. If you want to post that, I'll reply to it there.

I have no PoV about this, DWBH. Yes, 7 post is deathly silence, compared with the noise some innocuous-looking topics provoke. I don't know what you mean by "if the shoe fits." Do you mean anything? (Rhetorical: no need to answer that)