oldiesman

sky watcher, thanks for sharing. It's sort of nice (and unusual) to read an account about VP not committing some sexual sin when in close contact with women like this. Enjoy your stay at GS cafe.

Dear Fellow Greasespot Posters, Please abide by the forum rules and refrain from personal attacks. Lack of respect and insults directed at fellow posters will inevitably lead to more and more personal insults. Please note:

Same goes for me please. Put me on M&A.

Actually wasn't the standard in the advanced class that it is God's prerogative whether or not revelation is there? You "reach up in daddy's cookie jar" and if something's there, its there. If nothing is there, it is not there. Certainly the possibility that he missed it is there... it's possible, but none of us knows what went on behind the scenes and in everyone's mind at the time... so I opine that guesswork is folly.

To my fellow posters, Please abide by the forum rules and refrain from personal attacks. Lack of respect and insults directed at fellow posters will inevitably lead to more and more insults. Please note:

If you see a poster that looks idolatrous to you, whether you are right or wrong, I think it would be in compliance with the rules of the forums to keep that opinion to yourself. I think we all see things about posters that, if allowed to be typed out, could lead to all types of personal attacks and insults. Let's not get personal with posters and try to be more respectful.

When did they know of an impending suicide? If they knew a suicide was going to happen and did nothing, that's a whole different light on the matter. But no, to speculate on what they supposedly knew about the suicide is folly... we don't know what they knew about this act. Yes they are brothers in Christ, and I do speak for myself and my experience with these guys, taking into account their own stated beliefs in God and Christ as well. You speak for yourself when you call VP a false prophet, and you are free to do so.

The implication was clearly there. Jen-o did it with WhiteDove and he picked up on it. Knock off the personal attacks please. If you guys think that we who still believe PFAL are committing idolatry, fine, you're entitled to your opinions. Just keep the personal opinion to yourself... these things don't need to keep on being written on a forum where topics are supposed to be discussed without personal attacks.

T-Bone, These continued accusations of idolatry by you and others are getting old. Its sort of the same thing when twi taught that the trinity is idolatry ... i.e. anybody with a trinitarian viewpoint was committing idolatry. Much the same here, anyone who believes PFAL is doing so because of idolatry. Worship of the teacher. I think its actually trying to guilt someone out of their beliefs. Accuse them of idolatry.. thats it, make it a guilt trip. They are worshipping other gods! Please knock off the idolatry accusations. If you truly believe this, then keep this opinion to yourself. This is getting personal and its against the forums rules. I will try not to respond in kind even though I have opinions of you that are uncomplimentary and better kept to myself.

A sister in Christ commits suicide, and two brothers in Christ (at least one of them pre-determined to be a monster) gets blamed for it. The sister's own actions are completely exonerated, while the brothers get blamed for an act they have no knowledge of, no control over, no consent offered. This is madness!

What does this question have to do with the topic at hand? This question suggests that Dr. and Howard had knowledge of the suicide and consented to it, but I haven't read anything suggesting that. Del said "I talked to her and counseled with her a little bit, and also went before the Board of Trustees on it to try to get some reckoning about what this girl was going through, and others, but it was to no avail." To say we know what all went on behind the scenes and knew what was in everyone's mind is folly... we don't know.

This is not a strawman, there are arguments in favor of this view. Here's one: The implication being that if a teacher lies somewhere, a teacher can't teach the truth... The content of plagiarized material isn't true because it has been plagiarized. You shouldn't drive the Autobahn because Hitler was involved in building it. and so forth...

I've never been in that situation but would probably feel very sorry for the woman committing suicide, as I'm sure Dr. & Howard did. I don't think of these men as monsters; they were people with feelings. Howard's still alive, maybe somebody can call and ask how he felt when she killed herself, and see what he says.

I would put it this way: If I punched someone in the nose and the cried out, then went home and shot themself in the head; i'd feel responsible for the bloody nose, but I'm sure as hell not taking responsibility for an action I have no control over, like someone else's suicide.

Yes it appears that's how some people think. Its loony. Its like someone successfully using the Autobahn for 20 years, then finding out that Adolph Hitler had them built, then they boycott them because Hitler was involved.

Jen-o, if that is what you believe, then no problem. But the point is not moot. I'm not arguing against someone who believes the teachings are erroneous and false in and of themselves. That's your prerogative. What I'm arguing against is the idea that the teachings are false BECAUSE OF the sins of the teacher.

The sins of the teacher doesn't negate the truths in the teaching.

But as far as the assessment of blame or punishment for the driver, it still falls on the state of mind of the driver, not the state of mind of the motorcyclist.

Jeff, I get the recurring feeling that when you talk about me having compassion, you really want me to be quiet. But the forums are here for debate and discussion, something you don't seem to get. This isn't a therapy session for wound addiction. As they say "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." I invited you to PM me to discuss any issues you like with me in private, but you declined. That's your prerogative. But I think its time now for you to take a different approach. Voicing your personal feelings toward me on a public forum isn't what the forums are for. I hope you get that.

From what I know of traffic law, the penalty could be as high as manslaughter or as low as a traffic ticket for running a red light, all depending on the drivers "state of mind". So yeah, its possible the guy could kill someone, and just get off with a traffic ticket! Riding a motorcycle can be a dangerous business and I'm fully aware of the risks involved.

Unless the person had "intent" to cause harm to the other, I don't see how one could be culpable. Maybe a legal case can be made, but morally, God looks on the heart and sees all the thoughts and intents and if there was no intent to cause any harm, especially the death of someone, it doesn't make much sense.

No, that's not what I meant. What I meant was that I believe VP is responsible for his own acts, i.e., adultery, alcoholism, meanness, selfishness, etc. I do not believe he is responsible for someone else's acts, such as suicide and the like. If we're talking adultery and he was a part of that, then I believe he's responsible for his part in it. I believe each participant is responsibile for one's own actions, whatever that was. I believe there are exceptions; being drugged for example.

That written statement by Howard Allen was bull.... I don't believe they helped kill VP or had any culpability in it. It just goes to show how screwed up their heads were at the time to believe that nonsense. Remember, they were in a fog. So far I haven't heard any evidence in favor of VPW "driving someone to SUICIDE". Remember, the key word is SUICIDE; not adultery, not alcoholism, not meanness, not selfishness. By saying VP & Co. were culpable of someone else's suicide, they are being accused of murder by another name. This accusation is horrible. Like he and Howard & Co. had that much power and control over people's minds they can command a suicide? Give me a break .... Sorry, still don't believe it, because nobody can guarantee the actions of another.

Yes, let's all apply this one.

I agree in part. I believe the people involved in a life who commits suicide are responsible for their own actions, whatever they might be. But whether they "provoked the suicide", or "pushed the person toward it", is another matter entirely. Many of us go through life dealing with people who are unloving, selfish and unkind; yet it doesn't equal provoking or drive someone to suicide. I agree that people who commit suicide are partly responsible for their actions. Maybe even more so.