waysider

That's the most bizarre (and funny) thing I've heard in a long time. Here's how it worked when i was "in". You gave a REQUIRED "donation" to take the PFAL class. That was just the beginning. There were more classes set up the same way. Lots of them. They made money on those classes but it was a short term deal. You had to "abundantly share" (over and above the typical 10% tithe that most churches hope for) to stay in good standing. Remaining in good standing was ABSOLUTELY required to be accepted into any advanced classes or training programs. In addition, it was taught that if you didn't give at least a 10% tithe, you would be out of fellowship with God. Martindale even once said that, for anything less than 20%, God wouldn't bother to even "spit in your direction" (sic). I suppose you could say they never literally "asked". It was an UNDERSTOOD requirement. My personal feeling is that the PFAL class was, among other things, simply a way to get people to commit themselves to giving a large percentage of their income to the organization, pay after pay, month after month, and year after year. But, hey, nobody is using the word "ask" so that changes everything. Gimme a break! Amirite?

I think what you're referencing is what most people call Christian Faith. It's not what VPW was talking about in PFAL. What he was talking about was some magical power that can be conjured up by "saint and sinner alike" through focus and concentration..

Say what you will, the concept is not Biblical in origin, save for a few cherry picked verses here and there. People want to believe they can cause change through their thoughts. That's the basis of "the law of believing". If it were true, the world would be in a constant state of chaos, with conflicting thoughts cancelling each other out and confounding reality. (eg: I want it to rain, you don't. Who wins?) .....ad infinitum.

"Sorry folks, once again, off topic." It's not really off-topic. It demonstrates that there was a backstory, an underbelly to the organization. What you witnessed was a fairly common representation of accounts we have heard from many other participants. Personally, when I saw this sort of thing going on, I thought it must be an isolated incident(s). In reality, it was going on throughout the organization. The ultimate goal of our mission was to get people to take the PFAL class, not "bring them back to God". It even says that much in the Witnessing and Undershepharding syllabus. (page 16, if I remember correctly.) We weren't missionaries, engaging in some noble, selfless cause. We were an unpaid sales force, charged with selling a product. It's really just that simple. Sure, it's embarrassing to admit we were played but it's also folly to construct a mental fantasy to justify what we did.

"Do I sound - disgruntled?" Nah, you just sound like someone who got a flash of reality.

".....no wonder we should not have taken out loans to buy our own properties, then we might not tithe as much." BINGO! Another piece of the puzzle falls in place.

Playing the Devil's Advocate: It's also stated in PFAL that "it works for saint and sinner alike". Wierwille also said he saw unbelievers "manifesting the abundant life more than the believers". Clearly, part of the message VPW was peddling wasn't about God, it was about finding a way to make this thing he called "believing" a functional part of daily life. That's the same approach that has been taken by countless volumes of self-help books, not all of which involve Christianity or religion in general.

OK, serious question. How does the Bible thing work in court? (".....so help me God.") edit. Never mind. My friend, Mr. Google, says they don't do the Bible thing anymore.

I have no idea what it really means but I think my post #31 pretty much describes how it was handled in the Advanced Class. Wierwille said it's talking about the "manifestation of believing", a variety of believing that requires specific revelation to work.That sounds like a pretty handy cop out to me. Eh, what do I know?

For what it's worth, this verse was covered in the Advanced Class. The explanation (rationalization) that was given was that this exemplifies the manifestation of believing, not renewed mind believing. In other words, very specific revelation would have to precede and energize such an event. So, unless you have specific revelation to cast a mountain into the sea, any effort to do so would be futile. Now, isn't that special? edit: the "whatsoever" was explained using the *with distinction/without distinction* thing from PFAL.

In the BBC television series Dr. Who, the main character is known to default to use of a devise called a Sonic Screwdriver. It can be called upon to do all sorts of amazing feats. Need to pick a lock?--- Sonic Screwdriver. Need to disarm a robotic devise?--- Sonic screwdriver. Need to conduct a medical scan?--- Sonic Screwdriver. Oh, and you can use it to loosen and tighten screws, too. Who knew? The *law of believing* was The Way's version of the Sonic Screwdriver. It's not surprising that, in the original PFAL materials, it was first called "the magic of believing". The name was later changed to "the law of believing", I would suppose, to avoid the spiritual stigma associated with magic.

Have you ever seen, heard of, read about anyone actually casting a mountain into the sea? I should think that should be your first clue that the verse is not meant to be interpreted literally.

OK, in the least common denominator, it's a form of self delusion, convincing yourself that your thoughts are going to cause changes to occur in the physical world. Some of those changes involve your personal being (as in believing for healing) and some involve enacting changes to the world around and outside you. (such as believing for red drapes) Believing is a process wherein you convince yourself that your thoughts are causing reality to change for better or worse.

Here we go again. This discussion is not about speaking in tongues. That certainly is a valid topic and has had many threads associated with it. However, interesting though a discussion of it may be, it's not what this thread is about. "what is really the point of discourse, in fact, what is even the point of Greasespot ?!" The point of discourse is to examine and exchange ideas and opinions relating to a given subject, in this case, the definition of "believing". The point of GreaseSpot is to expose the true (dark) nature of The Way International. Specifically, the point of the forums is as follows: "These forums are meant to be a place of discussion, where ideas and debates are encouraged. We welcome your opinion. In that light, please be courteous to fellow posters. Disagree all you want, but respect the fact that someone else may feel as strongly about their ideas as you do about your own. Please don't make it personal. A lively discussions of ideas is both more polite and more relevant. Our forums cover many topics from religious to political. While we are not a religious site, we do embrace discussions in this area." edit: We no longer offer a forum for political discussion. However, there doesn't seem to be any shortage of such places on the web. re-edit: You are more than welcome to open discussions on the two subjects you introduced or revisit an existing thread. Most of these usually take place in the doctrinal forum.

Allan This is what is known as a straw man argument. A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent. SOURCE Steve is not talking about whether or not Jesus lied nor is he examining the veracity of that particular scripture.

Exactly. People participated in LEAD, thinking the whole thing was revelation based. It wasn't. Some suffered life long disabilities because they thought they were following revelation given to leadership. Others weren't so lucky and lost their lives completely. I never went LEAD but I did a lot of foolish things that I had serious doubts about at the time. I thought my intuitive doubts were unbelief and pushed on recklessly because I thought my 5 senses were betraying me. It all sounds crazy looking back from a different perspective.

We had a discussion a few years ago about some of the fool-hearted things we did, thinking believing and speaking in tongues would protect us. I, personally, took quite a few chances at work that could have jeopardized my health and safety. Some don't even make their effects known for years after the fact. I thought that believing and speaking in tongues would cover me and that God would give me revelation if I was pushing the envelope. Well, my *5 senses* told me I was tempting fate but I didn't get any *revelation* so I thought everything was OK. That's where the danger comes in. When people (mostly outsiders) try to tell me believing is innocuous I have to cringe at their unawareness of the potential for catastrophic results.

First you have the basic kind of believing that is detailed in PFAL, the Blue Book, etc., etc. etc..... "I'm believing for this." I'm believing for that"....The concept is not unique to The Way. In the 1950's and 1960's there were self-help books about it, songs about it, movies about it. Even today there is a best selling book that focuses on the concept. (I can't tell you the title because it's a Secret.) The basic idea behind it is that you can change physical reality by releasing a magical power via your thoughts, for better or worse. There are detailed instructions set forth in various places that describe the process. For instance, the Blue Book shows a process that uses a camera as an analogy. According to this method, the more focused you become, the closer you will get to achieving whatever it is you're *believing for*. Other classes and writings teach us that speaking in tongues while concentrating will give an energizing boost to the process. A spiritual turbo charger, if you will. You have to become an active participant in the process. Curiously, it seems to work much easier for negative results than positive. For instance, in the PFAL class, a mother had negative believing for her son's safety. Just like that... BOOM!....flattened like yesterday's pancake. And, it doesn't care who you are. "Works for saint and sinner alike." "If you believe you'll be dead this time next year you'd have to change the laws of the universe to make it out alive." Well, I guess you get the picture what this kind of believing is about. Now on to the other kind. It's called *the manifestation of believing*. There are two whole pages devoted to it in the Advanced Class. Mostly just a bunch of what it is, what it is not and a page of scripture references that supposedly show it being used. About half of them are from the OT and Gospels. There's a definition of what it is in the syllabus. My understanding is that this definition is actually B.G. Leonard's definition, taken from the class that Leonard ran in Canada in 1953 or so. (Some of the wording has been slightly rearranged to mask its origin.) I could be wrong on this point. I welcome any correction. Here is that definition from page 26: The manifestation of Believing is your God-given ability whereby you may bring to pass the impossible at your command according to what God has revealed to you by Word of Knowledge, Words of Wisdom and Discerning of Spirits. It also inspires believing in others. It is a special renewed mind believing according to the revelation of Word of Knowledge, Word of wisdom and Discerning of Spirits. It is for the deliverance of believers. It is for signs, miracles and wonders that cause the unbeliever to believe. It is the knowing awareness within you that at your command it will come to pass. What it is not (a partial list): *It is not believing action on the regular renewed mind believing according to the revealed Word. *It is not the common faith. *It is not the performing of miracles. The manifestation of Believing ceases when the result is manifested. So there you go. Isn't it beauuuuuutiful?

Way doctrine allows for two distinct types of believing. (not just negative and positive.) I'm pushed for time at the moment so I'll be back later with more detail.

"Many others, who died prematurely, were car accidents. I certainly don't want to paint these deaths with a broad brush, but how many were distracted or a result of sleep deprivation?" I remember such an incident in about 1980 or so. It made the local news. It seems the driver and her children, along with another adult passenger, perished in a horrible car accident, leaving ROA on their way out WOW. They were reported to have been extremely tired, having just completed WOW training. I think her name was Dondie something, though I'm not sure. It was a long time ago. I might have my details all wrong. I hope someone knows the accurate facts. I don't think I've ever seen it mentioned on GSC before.

#4. Study The Word much. What you can know by the five senses, God expects you to know. Proverbs 29:18. II Timothy 2:15 Proverbs 29:18 Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he. (KJV) Do you see any connection between this scripture and the so-called key? Yeah. Me neither. II Timothy 2:15 Work hard so you can present yourself to God and receive his approval. Be a good worker, one who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly explains the word of truth. (NLT) Again. What does this have to do with walking in the spirit? Even worse. In The Way, we took II Timothy 2:15 out of context and used it to "prove" our purpose is to: 1. Study, (so we can) 2. Rightly divide The Word. The context of this particular section of scripture is not at all saying that. 14 Remind them of these things, (the things listed in verses 1-13) and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. 16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness (ESV) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now, look back at the original wording of key #4, compare it to the gist of the scriptural references and decide if the two are incongruous or not. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ edit: I also recall being taught (Advanced Class?) that God won't give you revelation if it's about something in The Word that you should already know from studying. Well, that makes perfect sense---- if your purpose in stating it is to give veracity to the "key". But, here's the kicker. It's also saying that the MORE *Word* you know, the LESS revelation you'll receive. Kinda like opposite day. So, you would do well to disregard this key if you ever hope to receive revelation. :blink:

Several people here, including myself, have tried to verify his academic credentials. Might as well be searching for the abominable snowman. I'm not sure what that has to do with keys to walking by the spirit other than casting an ominous cloud over his credibility on the matter.

You know he wasn't really a "Dr.", don't you? :B)

Yep. The focal point of session 7.